Please explain Noah's Ark to me ...

[liljp617]

It is amazing to me how scientists can say things are so many billions of years old...I heard that they carbon dated a rock that was formed in the eruption of Mt. Saint Hellens and dated it as billions of years old!

Dave D

And where did you hear about this carbon dating for something billions of years old?  From the awesome, unbiased source of the Institute for Creation Research?

Carbon dating isn't used to date objects that old.  Carbon dating stops being used at around 60,000 years.  Pretty basic knowledge of radiocarbon dating.  Wherever you heard this from probably shouldn't be trusted in the future as a source on science.

There is plenty of reading available on the methods of dating used in the field, as well as how scientists can be quite sure of the validity of this research.

As far as dog breed go, at least, most of them are very modern, you take a single type of dog and breed for particualr qualities, eventually you get enough divergence for a "new" breed. But really it's just an accumulation of particular traits selected by humans.

Natural selection works pretty much the same way, except that things like death and the ability to find a willing mate do the choosing, not humans.

Personally, I don't feel that evolution and Christianity are mutually exclusive. Evolution is just a part of God's plan, and the mysteriousness of his ways.

That becomes a problem when:

One side states all modern organisms evolved from single celled organisms over billions of years by means of natural selection

And the other side states:

Every living thing on this planet was created as is (or at least mankind was), and thus didn't evolve over billions of years into what we see today

They can't both be true, and they clearly contradict each other pretty significantly...

[liljp617]

Religion is man's attempt at God.. Religion is when you follow rules or traditions set by man. Catholocism, protestants, baptist, muslim, hindu.. ect... these are all examples or religion.. but if you know GOD and follow him and ONLY him and his WORD that is not a religion.   Also.. Noah's Ark.. Was two of each KIND of animal  not two of each speices.. so there were not all different speices of dogs, cats ect.. just one male, one female..  There are websites out there but I don't think I am allowed to give the link.. so just search up Ken Ham and Genesis..

This brings up an interesting point.

Genesis 6:19 says:

You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.

Genesis 7:2-3 says:

Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

So uh, which one was it?  Yet another reason to question the legitimacy of the tale.

Never mind the fact that we're supposed to believe Noah himself lived to be 950 years old.  Just plain nonsense.

It's a lovely story, with some good metaphorical meanings...but, as usual, there's absolutely zero credible evidence or rational logic to support it.

[debraleesparks]

   Listen to ' Bill Cosby... NOAH" ,,, hahahahahahahahahah

[ipayitforward]

I think it takes more blind faith to believe this world came from nothing than to believe it was created by God...Just think about the human eye and how intricate it is.  How could this have happened by chance?

[eSineM]

oh yeh I totally believe in some kind of creator..... i just think mankind destroyed him.. think about it, everything can be GOD".. every lil molecule in the universe is a form of 'God"...the universe is just one big Life form in a way...i also believe in other existences... has to be...

if you all are looking for a beautiful hope, then you should check out jehovah witnesses.... they believe this earth is going to be a paradise soon hehe... if i had to pick and choose one faith it would be them... mostly cause they dont involve themselves with politrix, wars, etc.. almost occultish i guess.. but stilli think their belief makes a lil more sense than yur average Sect

[Falconer02]

I think it takes more blind faith to believe this world came from nothing than to believe it was created by God...Just think about the human eye and how intricate it is.  How could this have happened by chance?

"Darwin acknowledged from the start that the eye would be a difficult case for his new theory to explain. Difficult, but not impossible. Scientists have come up with scenarios through which the first eye-like structure, a light-sensitive pigmented spot on the skin, could have gone through changes and complexities to form the human eye, with its many parts and astounding abilities."

"The simple light-sensitive spot on the skin of some ancestral creature gave it some tiny survival advantage, perhaps allowing it to evade a predator."

"Eyes corresponding to every stage in this sequence have been found in existing living species. The existence of this range of less complex light-sensitive structures supports scientists' hypotheses about how complex eyes like ours could evolve. The first animals with anything resembling an eye lived about 550 million years ago. And, according to one scientist's calculations, only 364,000 years would have been needed for a camera-like eye to evolve from a light-sensitive patch." (found on pbs.org)

Okay so after some research online I find this which saved me 1500$ for retaking a college-level biology course and asking a professor about it. I prefer to think this as it shows that people are truly interested in figuring out and researching it and finding new sources of information to better our understanding of the world around us-- past and present.

Now I ask you-- can you please show me blunt proof of how god created the eyeball? Maybe some sort of left over 'finger-print' on each one that is absolute proof he exists? Maybe you can find something etches saying "GOD WUZ HERE" or something. Because if you're going to spurt out random bullshit one-liners that might seem rhetorical so they can't be answered, stop. You're being irrational-- you've got your head up in the clouds. It's illogical when, to persuade people, you should be logical and show what proof there is. Besides, we're talking about the ark here.

I'll quote more of the later posts when I have some more time...

if you all are looking for a beautiful hope, then you should check out jehovah witnesses.... they believe this earth is going to be a paradise soon hehe... if i had to pick and choose one faith it would be them...

NO! NONONONONONONONONONONONOOOOO!!!! You know why? I GREW UP AS ONE :-0   I'll elaborate if you want me to!

[liljp617]

I think it takes more blind faith to believe this world came from nothing than to believe it was created by God...Just think about the human eye and how intricate it is.  How could this have happened by chance?

You believe it came from nothing.  I don't.  The Big Bang Theory does not state the universe appeared out of thin air.  The Theory of Evolution does not even make a comment on the origin of life; evolution itself has absolutely zero relation to how life originated.  That is a completely different field of study labeled "abiogenesis."

Even so, if this planet and universe are so incredibly complex as you imply, then the being you assume created it all had to be even more complex (infinitely so, based on Christian teachings of God).  Who created your being?  Wonder what you're going to say..."uh God is outside of time, he doesn't need creating."  Intellectual copout that does nothing for answering the question.  You're telling me an infinitely complex being that listens to billions of people's prayers and pays attention to every single thing that goes on in this universe requires less blind faith than the BBT or current hypotheses on how life came about? *I don't imagine you'll be able to answer this, as you've probably not done any research into the BBT or abiogensis yourself, but I hope you surprise me*

Furthermore, by inserting a supreme being into the equation -- a being that proponents claim cannot be understood at all -- what have you done to help solve the equation?  Nothing.  You've just inserted a random, unnecessary infinity into the equation.  In no way have you solved the equation logically or derived any fact.  I can prove 1=0, 2=1, or any other illogical statement if I place an infinity in there...but how does that help us?

A=B=1
It follows that A^2 = A*B (we simply multiply both sides by A)
and that A^2-B^2 = A*B - B^2 (we simply subtract B^2 from both sides)
Now, if we factor, we get
(A+B)*(A-B) = B*(A-B)
finally we cancel the A-B term on both sides (divide both sides by A-B) to give
A+B=B (or 2=1)

Now clearly this is a nonsense and anyone with any math awareness will spot the mistake - we introduce an infinity by dividing both sides by A-B since that is dividing by zero.  The point is, however, that introducing an infinity doesn't explain anything and will nearly always lead to invalid conclusions. That is as true for 'God' as it is for dividing by zero

As for the eye, that's one of the oldest creationist arguments out there, and it's been abandoned by most creationists because they've come to recognize that it doesn't prove a point at all, and actually works against them.  The human eye is flawed in design at even the most fundamental aspects.  There's plenty of material out there that describes how the human eye is constructed, and frankly it's very poorly designed.  The function and structure of the human eye is just what one would expect based on the theory of evolution.  Never mind the fact that we've studied the structures and functions of eyes that are less complex than the human eye and we can fairly accurately map out the development/evolution over time.

We could also take a glance at octopi, who actually don't have a blind spot due to the structure of their eye (as humans do).  So your supreme being thought it would be a better idea to give the octopus a better structured eye than humans?  That's kind of odd.

If you want me to elaborate further on the structure of the human eye, I will, but I won't waste my time if you're not even interested.

[liljp617]

If you guys so desperately want to not believe in a God and prove through Science how he doesn't exist, how can you live? You must be depressed and what about when you have kids? No wonder people loose their minds when babies die.

First of all, the people you're talking to are likely atheists.  Atheism has nothing to do with proving god(s) doesn't exist.  Atheism is the lack of belief in a god(s); it is no different than saying you lack belief in unicorns.  Someone who lacks belief in unicorns isn't attempting to prove unicorns don't exist, that would be plain silly.  The burden of proof lies on those who make the extraordinary claim; it is their duty to provide the evidence to support their claim, and until they do, atheists will probably continue the logical answer of lacking belief.  This thread isn't discussing the validity of a god(s) anyway.  It's discussing the historical validity of Noah's Ark, which didn't happen.

Second, you can't prove something doesn't exist, certainly not with science.  There's no method of proving something doesn't exist unless you're in a vacuum or tautology.  Science works by means of the scientific method.  In order to use the scientific method, the question at hand must be founded in rationality, logic, mathematics, testing, experimenting, observation, etc.  Given that none of these things apply to a being like a god(s), science doesn't even attempt to answer it with the scientific method.

Moving on...

Why must I be depressed?  You don't believe in Allah, Zeus, Lord Krishna, the giant spaghetti monster, or any other supreme being and you're doing just fine happiness wise (I assume).  I merely take it one step further than you and do not believe in the Christian God (Yahweh).

There is plenty of mystery and magic (albeit logical) in science (astronomy, chemistry, biology, physics, etc.) that makes me appreciate my surroundings and to keep me happy.  Let me pose you this:

When you accept the BBT, you recognize that everything in this universe is connected.  Every proton, neutron, every molecule, every ion...everything is connected, as it all had a central origin.  When you accept that life originated without a supreme being, you recognize that every living thing on this planet originated, biochemically, from the same place, thus making every single species connected.  When you accept evolution, you recognize that every modern organism you see around you originated from the early single celled prokaryotes, thus making us all connected.

So everything on this planet and in this universe is connected chemically, biologically, and by the nature of physics.  We are all one, in some fashion.  How can that not make you feel larger than life and happy about your presence?  You're part of a GIGANTIC picture that is all connected.  And the catch:  It's all founded in rational thought, logic, and evidence.

How do you all feel about death? What is the point of any of this, I mean people go nutso over men/women that cheat, does it even matter because when your dead, your dead.

I feel death is the natural process that ends an individual's life.  It is nothing special, it just happens.  It is the natural circle of life.  I feel death is no more special for humans than it is for any other species on this planet.  

Why do we accept that dogs, horses, bacteria, lions, and every other living thing on this planet simply dies and that's it, yet we have a problem accepting it for ourselves?  The answer: fear.  People have difficulty accepting the fact that they will one day die and there's nothing they can do about it.  So they make up these comforting stories and plans of the afterlife, but they're just that, stories.

What is the point, or purpose, of all this?  You find and make your own.  There is no absolute purpose or point to life; it is subjective.  My view is life is about enjoying yourself, leaving a lasting impression for future generations, leaving the world better than it was when you came in, helping others because it's the right thing to do, and simply living.  The purpose of life is that there is no external purpose; it is up to you to decide what your purpose is.

Who's to say that God really isn't just an Alien that is very intelligent and can bring us back to life in another form? We have all kinds of technology but Aliens are probably 10 times smarter.

Nobody is to say that, as nobody even knows if aliens exist.  They might or might not, there's no point in making baseless assumptions until further evidence is provided.

Belief in God is a way to just hope for something, I mean who in their right mind wouldn't want there to be a God and that is the real question. You say you don't but then you like life and have children, are you just animals?

It is sad, it really is but like the old saying goes: If it is 2 Good 2 Be True, Then it probably is

I think God is 2 Good 2 Be True

Wanting there to be a god(s) doesn't make it any more likely that there is.  I prefer not to delude myself into believing things that aren't rational or truthful.  It serves no purpose.  I can have hope, happiness, and be a good person without a supreme being.  Why should I need one or desire one exist?

Yes, we're just animals.  Incredibly capable animals, but still animals nonetheless.

[liljp617]

I think it takes more blind faith to believe this world came from nothing than to believe it was created by God...Just think about the human eye and how intricate it is.  How could this have happened by chance?

Even so, if this planet and universe are so incredibly complex as you imply, then the being you assume created it all had to be even more complex (infinitely so, based on Christian teachings of God).  Who created your being?  Wonder what you're going to say..."uh God is outside of time, he doesn't need creating."  Intellectual copout that does nothing for answering the question.  You're telling me an infinitely complex being that listens to billions of people's prayers and pays attention to every single thing that goes on in this universe requires less blind faith than the BBT or current hypotheses on how life came about? *I don't imagine you'll be able to answer this, as you've probably not done any research into the BBT or abiogensis yourself, but I hope you surprise me*

A common argument from atheists and skeptics is that if all things need a cause, then God must also need a cause. The conclusion is that if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God). This is a slightly more sophisticated form of the basic question “Who made God?” Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. So, if God is a “something,” then He must have a cause, right?

The question is tricky because it sneaks in the false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. The answer is that the question does not even make sense. It is like asking, “What does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated—He simply exists.

How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.

When you acquire your own thoughts on the subject, I'll entertain them.  I prefer not to have discussions with people who copy/paste their answers simply because it's convenient.

http://www.gotquestions.org/who-created-God.html

Even if I were to reply to the above, where would the discussion go?  You don't seem to care about forming coherent arguments of your own, so why should this discussion continue?  If I reply, you'll have nothing of your own to say and I'll simply be discussing the subject with copy/pasted material...I could go read those things if I wanted to.

If you want to copy/paste something that you didn't write yourself, at least cite the source and perhaps elaborate with your own thoughts.

[Falconer02]

marieelissa's long and pointless post

I actually read a great deal of it and realized there we no sources cited. If you took that from a creationist website, your 'proof' is deluded with creationist nonsense. That, and I love how it does not talk about anything beyond the 19th century. You know? The whole time when a lot of people still believed the world was flat, bacteria didn't exist, and mercury cured all ailments!

"While some people hold the belief there was a worldwide flood, flood geology itself has been rejected by mainstream geologists, biologists, and historians, many of whom consider it pseudoscience. Though at one time even prominent workers in biblical archaeology were willing to argue support for flood geology, this view is no longer widely held."   (look up 'The Deluge' on google)

They feel that finding the Ark would validate their views on a whole range of matters, from Geology to evolution.

I'd think a massive thing like the ark, which could carry 2+ of every animal on earth (do your research and see how many animals Noah would have to tend to) would be ridiculously humongous and we would have found it by now...if it did exist.

Let me put it to you this way--

People used to believe fly larvae were born from rotten meat- as if the rotten meat was the thing which conceived the maggots. People thought it made perfect sense. But then a scientist came around and contested that belief-- he did an experiment and watched the flies land on the meat, feast, and sometimes lay their larvae. He showed his proof and intelligent individuals believed him because he had physical evidence and it made perfect sense.

The same could be said about Eratosthenese and how he proved the world was round through basic geometry. But you know what? People continued to believe the world was flat for 1000's of years despite the overwhelming evidence presented to them. You know why? It was easier for them. It required no thought to sit in their little boxes and be ignorant because the truth would rock their little worlds and their whole thought process would be rearranged. This is the same reason why people still believe in the ark-- it's so much easier to sit in their box and blind themselves. You get people throwing dinosaurs onto the ark BECAUSE IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE!!!

Well you know what? It's all bullshit. There is no physical evidence it ever happened except an old MYTH in which there's dozens of different ways to tell it. There's even one saying a giant frog cried and his tears caused a massive flood. And no, a piece of wood or seashell found on a mountain does not constitute ANY undeniable evidence. I'm sorry, but if you believe the ark is real, you're a delusional moron.

[mollymp]

lol ok im replying to this last post made on here and all the other ones who are doubting Thomas's, honsetly i for one am a born again, spirit filled, God fearing Christian woman. i believe evolution came about because people simply were to scared to trust in and on their faith. Christianity is an exercise in faith. God made the earth, the universe, all the animals, and us, and on the seventh day the Sabath He rested ( Shabbot Shalom). What is so unbelievable about the Ark? hmm? Is Life and every aspect of it not miraculous? You know i believe in the Bible in its entireity and because of this you would call me a moron? HELLO!!??? LOL i will pray for you, i will pray that before it is your turn to face our Lord that you would find salvation and peace, but if you choose not to.... well either way on that day you WILL KNOW that God not evolution created the universe and everything in it. I'm not writting this to offend anyone just to have a say i suppose.......... God Bless!

[mollymp]

This brings up an interesting point.

Genesis 6:19 says:

You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.

Genesis 7:2-3 says:

Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

So uh, which one was it?  Yet another reason to question the legitimacy of the tale.

Never mind the fact that we're supposed to believe Noah himself lived to be 950 years old.  Just plain nonsense.

It's a lovely story, with some good metaphorical meanings...but, as usual, there's absolutely zero credible evidence or rational logic to support it.







ok so if you look in addition to the animals that were to repopulate the earth, these "clean" animals were for food and for Noahs sacrifice after the flood (8:20-21)

[liljp617]

Wanting there to be a god(s) doesn't make it any more likely that there is.  I prefer not to delude myself into believing things that aren't rational or truthful.  It serves no purpose.  I can have hope, happiness, and be a good person without a supreme being.  Why should I need one or desire one exist?

The only reason I would want a God is because when I die, I would like to see my loved ones again. I don't like the idea that when we die that's it, nothing else and you won't even remember you lived because you won't have a brain to do so with. Seems sad now because I'm alive but when I'm dead nothing will matter any more. It really has nothing to do with fear unless my fear is never seeing family or myself again

It seems to be a subconscious fear (or maybe not).  You seem, pretty clearly, to be scared of the idea that when you die, that's it.  You seem fearful of the idea that you will no longer see those who passed before you or those who will pass after you.  That is precisely the fear I'm talking about.

If you believe in God for comfort, good for you.  People believe in and do all sorts of things for comfort.  The point that is being made, in general, is that you believing it doesn't make it any more true than if you didn't believe in it.

[liljp617]

lol ok im replying to this last post made on here and all the other ones who are doubting Thomas's, honsetly i for one am a born again, spirit filled, God fearing Christian woman. i believe evolution came about because people simply were to scared to trust in and on their faith. Christianity is an exercise in faith.

Or rational individuals didn't blindly accept that a supreme being did it.  Then they perhaps proposed the idea that all complex organisms evolved from simple organisms over billions of years by natural forces into what we now see today.  Then they used their skills in observation and experimentation over decades to fill libraries of evidence backing this stance up.

What is so unbelievable about the Ark? hmm? Is Life and every aspect of it not miraculous?

Let's see.  The idea that, a few thousand years ago, a 600 year old man (who lived to be 950 years old) had a one-on-one discussion with an invisible being in the sky, then built a boat large enough to hold an insanely large amount of animals, then rode out the largest flood mankind has ever known (of which there isn't a shrapnel of evidence supporting this outstanding flood), and then repopulated the entire planet...

I'd like to pose a question as well:  What is believable about the story of Noah's Ark?  Frankly, I think that would be easier to answer.

Define miraculous, as well, if you don't mind.  If by miraculous you mean:

1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
3 : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

then no, not all life is miraculous, because life arose and continues to occur by natural means and in accordance with the natural laws of physics, chemistry, and biology.  For life to be "miraculous" by these definitions, it would have to defy the natural laws.  And if you find some life that defies the natural laws of the universe, make a call to the Nobel Prize officials, because you're the first.

You know i believe in the Bible in its entireity and because of this you would call me a moron? HELLO!!??? LOL i will pray for you, i will pray that before it is your turn to face our Lord that you would find salvation and peace, but if you choose not to.... well either way on that day you WILL KNOW that God not evolution created the universe and everything in it. I'm not writting this to offend anyone just to have a say i suppose.......... God Bless!

Not a moron.  Perhaps ignorant and/or deluded.  I'd prefer you pray your God show himself.  Perhaps we could ask him why he did such an inefficient job for having so much knowledge and power.

Evolution says absolutely nothing on the topic of the origin of the universe or life on this planet by the way.  Your God would be silly to say it was he, not evolution, that created the universe.  That evolution played no part in the origin of the universe and life is a well established, widely accepted fact.  Evolution makes no effort to explain such things.  Completely different fields of study.

[Falconer02]

What is so unbelievable about the Ark? hmm?

Did you read ANY of the posts besides mine?  

Is Life and every aspect of it not miraculous? You know i believe in the Bible in its entireity and because of this you would call me a moron? HELLO!!??? LOL i will pray for you, i will pray that before it is your turn to face our Lord that you would find salvation and peace, but if you choose not to.... well either way on that day you WILL KNOW that God not evolution created the universe and everything in it.

I'm not calling you a moron because you stated the ark myth has problems with its legitimacy. GOOD JOB!   I wish more people had the brainpower to do that. But you don't need to pray for me...I'm one to not believe that some jewish zombie can make me live forever if I telepathically tell him that I accept him as my master, so he can remove an evil force from my soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Blantly put, I'm not christian.

I feel I have the right to stand back from it all and question aspects of religion. Not necessarily to make people angry (which usually happens and then they get all defensive and blow up into an illogical mess) but to make some people think and possibly make them stand back too. I would have been hung for thinking this 500 years ago, so I'm going to do it because I'm thankful I can. I believe humanity just needs to get past the whole nonsense of a lot of the bibles myths and just focus on the ones that can relate to peoples problems of today instead of defending the delusional stories that they think happened, but in reality never did.

I'd prefer you pray your God show himself.  Perhaps we could ask him why he did such an inefficient job for having so much knowledge and power.

BECUZ ITS ALL IN HIS MASTER PLAN!!! DONT U GET IT??? ITS A TEST!!! OMG UR GOING TO HELL NOW FOR QUESCHUNING OUR LORD AND SAVYOR