Are Athiests right or are they going to burn in hell with the rest of the sinner

[hitch0403]

I really need to laugh.......

By this you will know you are my followers if you worship God with spirit and truth and have love among yourself....says Jesus....

Also we are told NOT to forsake the gathering of ourselves as the day draws closer to Gods kingdom governing mankind....

Amazing the ignorance and blindness that prevails in this world.Dont do what Jesus said.....cos its manmade...LOL

Also the catholics do some things wrong but cos they do somethings thats right its ok.....LOL!!!

[JediJohnnie]

I really need to laugh.......

By this you will know you are my followers if you worship God with spirit and truth and have love among yourself....says Jesus....

Also we are told NOT to forsake the gathering of ourselves as the day draws closer to Gods kingdom governing mankind....

Amazing the ignorance and blindness that prevails in this world.Dont do what Jesus said.....cos its manmade...LOL

Also the catholics do some things wrong but cos they do somethings thats right its ok.....LOL!!!

Catholicism can't be classified as a cult was the point I was making.I don't think a person can be rightly judged by their church affiliation.If Catholics profess Jesus Christ as God's Son and believe in His death and Resurrection for the forgiveness of their sins (as the Catholic Church teaches) we should not be so blind as to believe they are inherently doomed to hell,because the Catholic Church puts undue emphasis on some of their man-made teachings.

Having said that,I don't exactly endorse the Catholic Church.I believe most of their legalistic regulations are taught against by Christ.I only say that unlike JW's,Mormonism,Christian Science and other aberrant doctrines,Catholicism doesn't pervert the fundamental Truths of Christ's divinity.

[hitch0403]

JJ...lets face it...you walk into a catholic church...you see statues being bowed down to.

Now i know you know how God feels about idols!!Need i say more?

Ill give u 1 more.They hold Mary in high esteem.CMON.....bible says only way to God is thru Jesus...he is only mediator and then they have the Hail Mary......it only works in the NFL!!!

[colbtrist]

I believe you must confess Jesus Christ is lord and Savior, and other than that God will be the judge. I also do not believe in being unkind to anyone.

[jenniferhoder]

I don't preach to others about what they believe. Here's my stance:
When you die, you certainly WON'T be standing before me, SO, who am I to judge you? Too bad more people don't feel the same.
I do believe in God- Plus, I would rather die believing in God and find out he DIDN'T exist, than to die NOT believing in him, and find out he DID.
AMEN.

[JediJohnnie]

JJ...lets face it...you walk into a catholic church...you see statues being bowed down to.

Now i know you know how God feels about idols!!Need i say more?

Ill give u 1 more.They hold Mary in high esteem.CMON.....bible says only way to God is thru Jesus...he is only mediator and then they have the Hail Mary......it only works in the NFL!!!

Well,in fairness,I don't think they are worshiping the statues but what they represent.But,I'm not big on Catholicism,so I'll just leave it at that.

[hitch0403]

Then maybe you should refresh your memory when they bowed down to golden calves or when Nebuchadezzar wanted 3 of Gods servants to bow before his images.

You are slipping JJ......

And seriously i see you support Xmas......Come Come.

You know the command Jesus gave right before he dismissed Judas.

Seriously.....you are slipping!

[JediJohnnie]

You seriously consider Catholics "Idol worshipers?" Look,I'm not a Catholic,so I'll let one of them defend themselves.


You've failed to explain why Christmas is this "evil" practice that you've made it out to be.We celebrate each other's birthday,isn't it all the more appropriate to set aside a day to celebrate the birth of God's Firstborn Son,who came into the world to live a perfect life in our place and to then lay down His to unbearable suffering and death,to be raised from the dead and cleanse us from our sins?You're telling me that's wrong?

Unless of course,you don't believe that Jesus Christ is Lord & Savior.

And as I said in the other thread,you are not to cast aspersions on someone for celebrating a Holy Day,per Rom 14:5-6 "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

[hitch0403]

This is only a little piece...if any dont have an open mind to Watchtower theres no sense going back and forth.I dont have a problem discussing this or hoping even 1 gets the grasp of the truth but there are many that wont even consider reading for themselves what Watchtower says cos of their own ignorance.

The Bible does not give Jesus’ birth date. But we can safely conclude that he was not born on December 25. How so? The Bible tells us that when Jesus was born, shepherds were “living out of doors” tending their flocks at night in the vicinity of Bethlehem. (Luke 2: The cold, rainy season usually began in October, and shepherds—especially in the colder highlands, such as those around Bethlehem—brought their sheep into protected shelters at night. The coldest weather, sometimes accompanied by snow, occurred in December.*
Significantly, the early Christians, many of whom had accompanied Jesus in his ministry, never celebrated his birth on any date. Rather, in harmony with his command, they commemorated only his death. (Luke 22:17-20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26) Still, some may say, ‘Does the pagan connection really matter?’ The answer? It does to God. “The true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth,” said Jesus Christ.—John 4:23.

[hitch0403]

So now ill hear about ElNino <climate change> in Bethlehem over 2000 yrs ago on 12/25...LOL

Oh 1 more thing cos i know Jmmcaskill wont bother putting up Psalms 83:18 from KJV...for obvious reasons.....lemme help him out here......

That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

[JediJohnnie]

This is only a little piece...if any dont have an open mind to Watchtower theres no sense going back and forth.I dont have a problem discussing this or hoping even 1 gets the grasp of the truth but there are many that wont even consider reading for themselves what Watchtower says cos of their own ignorance.

The Bible does not give Jesus’ birth date. But we can safely conclude that he was not born on December 25. How so? The Bible tells us that when Jesus was born, shepherds were “living out of doors” tending their flocks at night in the vicinity of Bethlehem. (Luke 2: The cold, rainy season usually began in October, and shepherds—especially in the colder highlands, such as those around Bethlehem—brought their sheep into protected shelters at night. The coldest weather, sometimes accompanied by snow, occurred in December.*
Significantly, the early Christians, many of whom had accompanied Jesus in his ministry, never celebrated his birth on any date. Rather, in harmony with his command, they commemorated only his death. (Luke 22:17-20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26) Still, some may say, ‘Does the pagan connection really matter?’ The answer? It does to God. “The true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth,” said Jesus Christ.—John 4:23.

But again,the point is setting aside a day to celebrate Christ's Birth.The fact that we don't know the actual day doesn't matter.If Oct 10 was chosen or June 5th,would that make it somehow more acceptable than the 25th?So what if we are not "commanded" to celebrate it?Do you think God would get angry with people setting aside a day to remember His Son's birth?The Wise men traveled for years over many lands to honor Him at His birth.Should they have saved themselves the trip,because God did not "command" them to observe Jesus birth?

[hitch0403]

The angels proclaimed to the shepards of Jesus birth.Nothing wrong with that.

12/25 seems to be a date associated with a pagan holiday celebrated in Babylon that was used in Christs birth.I dont think we need to ask how God felt about pagan holidays NOW being used to celebrate Jesus birth.

The astrologers were not wrong to find Jesus but read furthur and we see king Herod wanted to use them so he can find Jesus and kill him.What followed was very sad.When they didnt return back to him Herod had all the 2 yr olds killed.Merry xmas....eh???Satan guided them with the star so they would find him.The star is used as a happy symbol in xmas whenSatan used it to show where he was so Herod could kill him.The angels of course warned the astrologers NOT to return back to Herod with good reason.Hence he got pissed off and murdered all the 2 yr olds.

And you wanna associate happy times with that even?

Please...need i continue with this nonsense that all never speak of...and its right there in ANY bible.

Spirit and truth is what Jehovah looks for in TRUE worship!!

[hitch0403]

Re Jesus death and birth...Eccl 7:8 is a good scripture...


King James Bible
Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.


Also let us remember what Jesus last breath was....."It has been accomplished"

What his fathers work was for him to do.

[lvstephanie]

It seems like hitch is more critical about the actions rather than the underlying meaning and intent behind certain practices...

JJ is correct in saying that Catholics are not idol worshipers... There's quite a difference between giving something deference because of what it represents and actual worship. True, the action of saying prayers while kneeling before a statue of Jesus' crucifix may appear as worshiping that statue to a non-Catholic, but the same assumption could be made if they saw a JW reading the Bible. Or are you an idol worshiper when you read the Bible, care for it, ensure that others don't abuse it, etc? After all, the Bible isn't any different than any other book in terms of its physical composition... Similarly, giving deference to the mother of God's son doesn't mean we worship her. Out of all of humanity, she was hand-picked by God to birth Jesus, so why is it so terrible to show her respect for what she had accepted.

Finally we can safely conclude that Jesus wasn't actually born on December 25th, not because of the Bible, but rather through non-Christian, historical accounts we know that the Roman Emperor Constantine allowed the Christian celebration to coincide with the Roman's pagan celebration. But just because the earliest Christians arbitrarily decided to hold their celebration at the same time as the pagans doesn't mean they are celebrating the pagan's holiday in terms of what the celebration is for. Giving gifts and acts of charity during this season also has pagan origins, yet the early Christians saw this as a parallel with the spirit of Jesus' teachings and so too kept these traditions. So does God also disapprove of feeding the hungry and giving to those in need just because they have pagan roots?! Again the intent of "do unto others as you would have done unto you" seems more important to God that can read your innermost thoughts and desires than performing the action of the pagan custom of gift giving.

As for the reason why these early Christians decided on this date, part of it has to do with that Roman pagan holiday; it was the called the "birthday of the Unconquered Sun", the pagan god Sol. However the early Christians noted that in the Bible (emphasis added by me):

4:1 See, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who revere my name the sun of righteousness shall rise, with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.
-Malachi 4:1-3

so what would be more fitting than to celebrate the "birthday of the Unconquered Sun" then with the birthday of the unconquered Son of God, the sun of righteousness. Furthermore, the early Christians were being persecuted by the Romans in the first few hundred years after Jesus, so many of those early customs were taken from pagan sources in order to hide their true beliefs lest they too be killed. Intent: celebrate the birth of our Savior, the Son of God vs. Action: hold that celebration at the same time as a pagan celebration; which is more important with God?

And where in the Bible does it say that Satan had anything to do with Christmas or the star that the wise men / magi were following? Matthew chapter 2 just mentions that they asked King Herod where they could find the King of the Jews since they had been following this star; Satan was never mentioned as tricking the magi into the visit. Also, although it's possible that Satan may have directly prompted King Herod to have the magi report back to him, I think it's more likely that it was simple human hubris and desire for power, esp. if the magi referred to Jesus as the King of the Jews (for Herod had already been named such by the Roman Emperor Augustus / Octavian). Or it could have been that Herod "the Great" was going insane as evidenced by his earlier, paranoid decrees and the fact that he had several of his own sons killed.

[lvstephanie]

And yes, any Christian will tell you that the death of Jesus holds more import than his birth in terms of what that means. Yet that doesn't mean that celebrating his birth is somehow evil... Even if his birth resulted in the death of a couple of dozen innocent children being killed. Or is Jesus' death also tainted because of the Roman persecution of hundreds of early Christians following shortly thereafter?