The real actual totally 100% legitimate truth about prayer.

[msmoneybags48]

God said to not put any gods before Him.  You are a pagan worshipper.  You are supposed to worship the only God there is.  I am not contradicting myself.  You began this controversy by telling people their god is not real; that is like telling the Devil that you signed on a new breed of worshippers for him.  You had to have known this was going to start a problem.  You didn't care.

[Falconer02]

God said to not put any gods before Him.  You are a pagan worshipper. 

Incorrect. I do not worship any gods (including yours).

You are supposed to worship the only God there is.

Says who? Your god? Through what? Your bible? That's circular reasoning and is a logical fallacy.

I am not contradicting myself.  You began this controversy by telling people their god is not real; that is like telling the Devil that you signed on a new breed of worshippers for him.

You did contradict yourself. Even a young child could spot the contradiction within your 2 posts. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. And I'm not telling you your god is not real. You're doing that by yourself with the lack of evidence you present. I'm simply pointing out the fallacy when it has already been presented. I could tell you that there's a blue dragon monster living in my freezer, but without showing evidence of it, I would be labelled delusional for constantly insisting it exists. You're doing the exact same thing (aside from having an ancient story book full of similar supernatural tales in it).

But I imagine since I'm speaking realistically and using casual logic, I'm teaming up with Satan, right?

[Flackle]

God said to not put any gods before Him.  You are a pagan worshipper.  You are supposed to worship the only God there is.  I am not contradicting myself.  You began this controversy by telling people their god is not real; that is like telling the Devil that you signed on a new breed of worshippers for him.  You had to have known this was going to start a problem.  You didn't care.

God isn't real, therefore Satan gets more followers. Forgive me if I'm wrong but...

Either:

P1. God created everything (including Satan.)
P2. God isn't real.
C1: Satan cannot be real.

Or:
P1. God created everything (including Satan.)
P2. God is real.
C1: Satan is real, and all atheist are secretly devil worshipers.

As you can see the argument (regardless of what you believe) will always boil down to whether or not god is real. This is because the question of god existing or not is more important than discussing whether or not Satan is real, only because in order for Satan to exist so must god. To accuse atheist of devil worshiping makes no real sense. Saying atheist worship Satan can only hold any validity if and only if God exist. Would it not then be more prudent to just discuss the basis of god existing instead of accusing people for things that is also no evidence for?

[msmoneybags48]

Did you tell your parents that?  Because I still assert that God created you and He is your true Father.  I refuse to play this back-and-forth game with you because you are a fool.  You don't see it now, but God will show you when you die why He is the boss.  I would rather believe in Him than Satan; his home is the fiery hell he lives in.  You are going to need ice water to chill the heat in your body.

[home2013]

I for one appreciate the fact that you are kind enough to allow me to pray in my own house thank you. While I am praying in my own house I will assume it is ok to pray for whatever or whomever I choose to pray for. You my friend will be at the top of the list. Hope you have a great week.

[Falconer02]

Did you tell your parents that?  Because I still assert that God created you and He is your true Father

No proof to back this up? Delusional statement.

I refuse to play this back-and-forth game with you because you are a fool.

Failure to back up your beliefs and then calling the opposition foolish? Arrogant and ignorant statement.

You don't see it now, but God will show you when you die why He is the boss.

Believing in an authority figure without proof? Delusional and authoritative statement.

I would rather believe in Him than Satan; his home is the fiery hell he lives in.  You are going to need ice water to chill the heat in your body.

Aaaaand we have a very bad human being here. It really saddens me to see that people like this still exist. Cursing anyone to some grim afterlife? That's not only the sign of a rude and uneducated individual, but also the sign of an immature one. It's almost the equivalent of going "Don't believe what I believe? Well F you!". Not only have you lost the debate, but you've made your belief system look foolish and out-of-touch. Bravo. I really hope this thread gets more views just so people can read your last post.

[Falconer02]

You my friend will be at the top of the list. Hope you  have a great week.

"There are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers on their knees, with their eyes closed."

[msmoneybags48]

I am not ignorant.  I pray, and so does my husband.  He recognizes God for who He is.  Your timing is off considerably.  I will ask God for guidance because for a man, you are so ignorant you wouldn't know God if he came up literally and slapped the mess out of you.  I could go your route and say F***u, but I am a lady and stooping to your level wouldn't do a thing for me.  I've got style.  Do you?

[Falconer02]

I am not ignorant.

And yet I've already given you an pure example of your ignorance. You haven't counter-argued it. Therefore you are ignorant.

Your timing is off considerably.  I will ask God for guidance because for a man, you are so ignorant you wouldn't know God if he came up literally and slapped the mess out of you.

How loving and christian of you to say such a thing. You wish harm to me through your ancient desert god. Thanks.

I could go your route and say F***u

You misinterpreted how your condemning people to hell is just an ancient way of saying "F u". You've failed to counter-argue that too and instead you're just putting words in my mouth. It was obvious I never meant it that way, but you're skewing it to make you look like the victim of personal attacks. Such mind games are that of cult-mentalities. But, please, do continue. You damaging the merit of your belief system interests the free thinkers here.

I've got style.

Yes you do. It's called religious fundamental-extremism.

[jcribb16]

You are just one person, behind a screen I might add (as I am also behind a screen), who disagrees with the existence of God.  So naturally, anything regarding God is rejected, including His Word - that is expected.  Fortunately for me and for other believers, your views don't affect my views

Then you and the others being in debate and discuss is fairly pointless. I'll be the level headed one here and say yours and others viewpoints can affect my viewpoint, but when you and the others cannot provide sufficient evidence of anything involving your beliefs, there's really no point in debating or discussing any truth claims you believe you have.

your interpretations are simply your interpretations from the outside looking in

So I guess the bible is right because the bible says so? That's the problem with not seeing it from the inside looking out. I recall showing you numerous times why your biblical opinions are false and you failing to show why I'm wrong in these justifications. Slavery, the argument of free will, false prophecies, Noah's Ark, etc.  Each time you failed to disprove why this god is not malevolent or how the bible is not fallacious.

thinking you are being plausible, when instead, you are missing the core of understanding, the heart dedicated to God, and misrepresenting truths, leaving out the full points, and attempting in every way to make God look "evil" and "bad."  

And, oddly enough, you've failed the vast majority of the time in making a counter-point when I present the fallacies of your beliefs.

"Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who say they have it."

The only reason you think it is pointless is because I won't budge from my belief in Christ.  Why does it matter so much to you anyway?  I'm not trying to coerce you from your choice of disbelief.  It's my life and my business, and nothing to do with yours, nor yours with mine.

Many believers have attempted to give or provide answers, whether personal, testimonies, events, c/p articles, etc., and some of you disbelievers ignore them, knock them, refuse to consider them - as is your choice.  It matters not what believers put, nothing has ever appeased some of your questions on the matter.  That is a condition of the heart being hardened against God, and it is the personal free will and choice to ignore answers and/or make them look false or unanswered.  So, since it is your choice to disbelieve, and my choice to believe, there really is nothing more to add on, except to constantly go in circles.

[jcribb16]

You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance."  Nor am I.  I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions.  No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever.  Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.  

I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations.  You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it.  I, as a believer, do.  Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.

If you had even an ounce of logical reasoning, you wouldn't include god. It doesn't matter if prayer is powerful, what matters is whether or not it actually does any good. You said nothing in response to my statement that prayer is harmful to society as a whole, and haven't given me any more evidence to support the claim that prayer works. You don't have too, but my stance still stands as it was. If people don't want to explain themselves, that's fine. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to ask for said explanation. One's silence can speak more than one's words.

Mind your own "logical/illogical" reasoning, and I'll mind mine.  Just because my thoughts, views, and beliefs don't agree with yours, does not make my reasoning illogical.  And vice versa, I might add - but, I am not the one cutting down someone's reasoning as you are.

It matters not what I reply to you regarding prayer being harmful or not being harmful to society - you do not accept and/or pay attention to what I have said many times already.  I don't really expect you to accept something that you do not know personally nor have experienced - if you did, then there would be an understanding and peace regarding prayer, what it does, how it helps and comforts, through relying on Christ. 

[Falconer02]

The only reason you think it is pointless is because I won't budge from my belief in Christ.

The point of a debate is to present two opposing viewpoints and then have each side be educated on the others viewpoint. When one isn't willing to budge or ignores the glaring problems within their own side, then it's pointless. When I've presented realistic/logical problems with your reasonings and proofs and then later on you regurgitate the same nonsense, it's ridiculous.

Why does it matter so much to you anyway?  I'm not trying to coerce you from your choice of disbelief.  It's my life and my business, and nothing to do with yours, nor yours with mine.

Well I appreciate the lack of personal attacks (unlike SOME of the christians on this forum...), but if you're going to share your POV in a debate and discuss forum, it does matter and you can't play the victim card if you comment or create a thread about it. However I'm just talking from a discussion level and not some deep personal/psychological level. Even though I use terms like 'delusional' a lot, it only pertains to the subject matter. You are not a (fully) delusional person, but your beliefs in the supernatural are a delusional quality.

That is a condition of the heart being hardened against God, and it is the personal free will and choice to ignore answers and/or make them look false or unanswered

But I don't ignore answers. I know for a fact that you've posted fallible material many times. I point out the problems of those fallible answers. I notice this trend when I point out a problem-

1. The believers here will try to answer it
2. The answer is fallible on an elementary level and I point that out
3. The believers say I won't understand because of (insert random emotion here) or (insert some not-part-of-the-club dribble here)
4. I point out how that's a logical fallacy and emotion has nothing/very little to do with it
5. Original believers discussing the matter abandon the post without counter-arguing their fallacies

So, since it is your choice to disbelieve, and my choice to believe, there really is nothing more to add on, except to constantly go in circles.

Humanity gains knowledge and evolves through understanding its surroundings. The problem with religious beliefs is most are against this concept. Clinging to ancient writings from people who thought the world was flat is odd and peculiar when we know so much about the universe just through something like modern-day astrophysics. You can believe what you wish, but thinking you can share it as truth here will get you that pesky 'logical flak'. Expect more circles I suppose.

[jcribb16]

The only reason you think it is pointless is because I won't budge from my belief in Christ.

The point of a debate is to present two opposing viewpoints and then have each side be educated on the others viewpoint. When one isn't willing to budge or ignores the glaring problems within their own side, then it's pointless. When I've presented realistic/logical problems with your reasonings and proofs and then later on you regurgitate the same nonsense, it's ridiculous.

Why does it matter so much to you anyway?  I'm not trying to coerce you from your choice of disbelief.  It's my life and my business, and nothing to do with yours, nor yours with mine.

Well I appreciate the lack of personal attacks (unlike SOME of the christians on this forum...), but if you're going to share your POV in a debate and discuss forum, it does matter and you can't play the victim card if you comment or create a thread about it. However I'm just talking from a discussion level and not some deep personal/psychological level. Even though I use terms like 'delusional' a lot, it only pertains to the subject matter. You are not a (fully) delusional person, but your beliefs in the supernatural are a delusional quality.

That is a condition of the heart being hardened against God, and it is the personal free will and choice to ignore answers and/or make them look false or unanswered

But I don't ignore answers. I know for a fact that you've posted fallible material many times. I point out the problems of those fallible answers. I notice this trend when I point out a problem-

1. The believers here will try to answer it
2. The answer is fallible on an elementary level and I point that out
3. The believers say I won't understand because of (insert random emotion here) or (insert some not-part-of-the-club dribble here)
4. I point out how that's a logical fallacy and emotion has nothing/very little to do with it
5. Original believers discussing the matter abandon the post without counter-arguing their fallacies

So, since it is your choice to disbelieve, and my choice to believe, there really is nothing more to add on, except to constantly go in circles.

Humanity gains knowledge and evolves through understanding its surroundings. The problem with religious beliefs is most are against this concept. Clinging to ancient writings from people who thought the world was flat is odd and peculiar when we know so much about the universe just through something like modern-day astrophysics. You can believe what you wish, but thinking you can share it as truth here will get you that pesky 'logical flak'. Expect more circles I suppose.

I personally believe that much of this boils down to the concept of "faith" and "trust."  Romans 10:17 says, “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."  Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."  In other words, faith is trusting in someone or something - in this scenario, Christ - acting on God's Word, and not acting on our personal perceptions on the matter.

As you know yourself, there is a difference between believing what we know to be true, and what we perceive to be true.  Many people can't perceive the truth about God, because they don't experience the trust and faith in God that believers do.  It also takes time to build the trust and faith in someone or something.  It would be difficult to believe in or trust a stranger.  With a believer, the trust has been slowly gained, over time, through experiences, through answers to prayer or situations, to the point of the believer knowing deep down, with confidence and trust, that their faith is indeed real and Christ is indeed real. 

There are many gods.  God does say in His Word, that we (believers, that is) are to worship Him, and that He is a jealous God.  There are many religions.  Believers don't worship a religion - they worship God.  In my case, personally, I am a Christian, a believer in Christ, and Christianity is a "faith-based" religion.  As a believer, I have God's Word, the Bible, as a testimony for the grounding of my faith in God.  Then there is the fulfilling of the prophecy of Christ's birth, death, burial, and resurrection, and through Him and His sacrifice, a believer, such as myself, places faith and trust in Christ, for God's gift of salvation. 

Back to the perception of truth and/or reality - because some people cannot "see" God or Christ, literally, the struggle with faith/trust enters the picture.  There again, as already mentioned above, it's understandable the struggle with faith/trust when the someone/something can't be seen literally.  Also, again, that's where spending time with the someone/something, researching, asking questions, answering, studying, praying, having prayers answered, situations helped or changed, and so many other evidences of truth happening in the believer's life, then faith is established and built more concretely. 

It's kind of like stepping out of our comfort zone or outside of the box to go beyond just "seeing" the literal truth, but also being able to perceive and know the truth, through faith, confidence, and trust.  And once again, as we both know, the circle starts all over again, because of the conflict between faith and seeing/not seeing.  And we carry on...   

[Flackle]

You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance."  Nor am I.  I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions.  No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever.  Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.  

I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations.  You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it.  I, as a believer, do.  Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.

If you had even an ounce of logical reasoning, you wouldn't include god. It doesn't matter if prayer is powerful, what matters is whether or not it actually does any good. You said nothing in response to my statement that prayer is harmful to society as a whole, and haven't given me any more evidence to support the claim that prayer works. You don't have too, but my stance still stands as it was. If people don't want to explain themselves, that's fine. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to ask for said explanation. One's silence can speak more than one's words.

Mind your own "logical/illogical" reasoning, and I'll mind mine. Just because my thoughts, views, and beliefs don't agree with yours, does not make my reasoning illogical.  And vice versa, I might add - but, I am not the one cutting down someone's reasoning as you are.

It matters not what I reply to you regarding prayer being harmful or not being harmful to society - you do not accept and/or pay attention to what I have said many times already.  I don't really expect you to accept something that you do not know personally nor have experienced - if you did, then there would be an understanding and peace regarding prayer, what it does, how it helps and comforts, through relying on Christ.  

I'm not going to "mind my own logical/illogical reasoning" because you may have noticed we are on a forum dedicated to debate, on a thread I opened for the use of debating. If you no longer wish to debate then no one is forcing you to respond. Also, please don't tell others to stop replying and mind their own business. Otherwise, if you wish to continue to defend your position, I would highly recommend focusing on your position rather than claiming victim to being attacked because someone posted a different opinion from yours. This is getting rather annoying and I have ignored it up to this point.

The reason your ideology is illogical isn't just because I disagree with it. You're ignoring all of the reasons I (as well as others) gave that show's religion is illogical (ie: Blatant contradictions in the bible, no real evidence and no real scientific backing, no evidence outside of the bible that can be used as proof of the events the bible describes, the fact that other religions hold just as much (or as should say as little) validity as yours, the fact that prayer has been shown to have little or no real effect, and I could go on.)

Also, my personal experience has little to do with what I base my reality on. If I see something that looks like Bigfoot, I'm not going to go out on a limb and assume Bigfoot is real. At the same time, If I experience the affects of prayer then I'm noting to assume those effects happened as a result of that prayer. There's plenty of reasons why I experience what I experience so experiences alone may have little to do with actual reality. That's why we have the scientific method. Its also why, even though its the best method, it isn't perfect and we can never state actual fact from it (the reason why "theories are just theories"). It simply hold more validity than personal experiences.

So forgive me if I take other people's personal experiences with even less validity. Especially when claiming something as important as a divine being.

[dbenjamin]

I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.

OMG U CANT PROOF THAT SO U CANT SAY THAT

Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I forget who said this- "A thousand people can pray for something to be fixed, but it only takes 1 to get up off of their knees and fix it." The only thing I think you've left out here is that praying can make people feel good. It can act as a placebo effect and get them in high spirits when everything else in or around them is in bad condition. And who knows? Maybe in the future we'll find some quantum force that binds us all together (I hold no belief in this-- just a speculative idea)! I really have no problem with those situations if it's truly helping the person personally. It's when faith healers try to cash in on this idea or when people arrogantly speak of it as truth and are condescending of their apparent god-talking super-power. Y'know. Religion.

If god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.

The whole concept of praying to the Abrahamic god presents numerous logical problems. On one hand, praying and asking the god to make bad things go away would interfere with there being a "divine plan" because the believer is asking god to change something in the plan. If it's that simple and everyone's praying for this god to change things in their favor, there can't be a set plan. In that sense, praying is pointless if one believes there is a divine plan. If one believes god tilts things in their favor, there is no set course and thus the whole concept of a divine plan contradicts the religions teachings. However if one prays after bad things happen ("it's part of god's plan") thanking god for sparing them or opening their eyes to something after a bad experience, they're just praising the god's malevolence. Anyone (believer or not) has life-altering experiences. Good or bad, it's silly (and sometimes dangerous) to equate the experiences to a defined god.
[/quote] Thats why its said to each its own belief ......touchy subject. I take what I need and leave the rest.....