The real actual totally 100% legitimate truth about prayer.

[Flackle]

1.  I did not say you were "yelling" at me.  You do this quite frequently when it's obvious no one is yelling.  "Shouting" to the forum is a figure of speech - sorry you didn't realize or chose to not realize the difference.

I never yell at anyone. Rarely do I use all caps, and only use them in points of emphasis. Sorry I read your words literally, I suppose that's just a bad habit of mine. From now on I'll try harder to differentiate when you're being literal or being figurative.

2.  You commented that you were sorry, God is not real.  Your opinion.  I'm saying back there is no need to apologize for your "opinion," but that to me, God is real.  My opinion and belief on the matter, based on things evidenced in my own personal life, others' lives, testimonies, God's Word, amongst other things.  You don't have to believe that - I'm not coercing anyone to do so, especially you, at this point and time.

I will state this as clearly as I possibly can: "Personal experience does not provide sufficient evidence for us to actually believe a divine being actually exist." Its perfectly reasonable to ask for better evidence when faced with something as extraordinary as a divine being. Plus, I never in any of my post suggesting that you coerce people. My qualm with religion isn't based just on you, it's based on the entirety of the faith and it's people. My personal experience is that I have been subjected to coercion on many occasions by Christians in the past. In this case, personal experience is adequate evidence because what I claim is not extraordinary.

3.  You do "appear" to contradict yourself.  You say you "don't want to use the law to change people's view on religion because I don't believe in force and coercion. If someone willingly reads my post and comes to the logical conclusion that religion is made up, then that's great and no force need to be applied."  Yet - you also say, "I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.;  Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. "
 

Those two statements do not contradict one another. I can see why you think my post is an attack against religion, but I am specifically targeting prayer. In fact, if you have any ability to reason you'd realize that the intention of your religion isn't to be-able to solve all your problems by praying to god and hope he fixes everything, but that seems to be the general consensus of many of its followers.

I'm not going to word my post in a way that doesn't assume anything and tries to use politically correct language so that I don't offend anyone. I have to assume that my view point is the right one, otherwise I cannot argue for or against anything. This is basic logical debate 101. In order to argue your own opinion, you have to assume that its right and only change it once you are convinced otherwise. If you spend your time assuming everyone is right in their own way, you can't debate.

Just because I put a post of sharing my view does not mean I am going to use the police to try and arrest someone, or take a gun or other such weapon and threaten someone's life if the don't believe what I do.  You seem to think that force and coercion can be achieved through words, and unless I threaten someone specifically or use my freedom of speech to slander someone specifically then I cannot coerce anyone with a thread.

 A. You "seem" to be trying to "coerce" someone away from making their own personal research and decision with stating your opinion as "implied fact."  You have no proof of what you were saying to be true, anyway, since you do not claim to know God personally, so you therefore have no "conversation/answers" within your "no prayer" personal life.  

I don't think you understand what coercion is. Coercion is using force and intimidation (which is normally done by threatening others). Coercion cannot happen accidentally, as coercion has to do with intent as much as it does with the result of that intent. Again, in order to properly debate you have to state your opinion as "implied fact".

 B. Those who do pray, have been provided answers, whether a direct "no," a "yes," or a maybe not/maybe later.  Usually, with any of these, a believer can determine, if not now, then later, why the answers came to what they were at the time.

Actually, they think they are provided answers. They don't realize these people are finding answers in things that happen as a result of just them happening. Also, just because some people think they are provided answers doesn't qualify as strong enough evidence to point to the existence of god and the effectiveness of prayer.

 C. Regarding your example of prayer as opposed to fund raising efforts/charities to help find a cure for cancer: Believers can, do, and will pray for the cancer victims, families, friends, doctors, nurses - everyone involved, including the scientists working on trying to find a cure.  However, while that's all some people may feel they can do to help in whatever way they can, there are many, believers or not, who also get out there and donate time and money, and help raise funds for the hopeful cures, food, clothing, hospital stays, meds, and/or whatever they can do to help.  We have at least 3 young children just in our small town who are struggling even now with cancer.  It's wonderful and amazing how much support, monetary, prayer, and comfort - are being given and offered by most of the citizens of our town - both believers and disbelievers.  The point is, they are all working together to help try and do something; anything at all, to give support, care, concern, and love.  

So at best prayer has little to no effect on whether someone donates or gives to charity (someone who is unable to actually donate time or money will be unable to do so regardless of prayer). At worse it is used as a substitute (someone prays instead of actually helping because they think prayer is enough). Each person is different, but from what I can tell the overall affects of prayer do little to help and may in fact cause harm.

 D. My point, is that just because some people pray for needs like cancer, does not mean they sit on their duffs and do nothing.  Some may - but most do not; blame for doing "nothing" can actually be applied towards anyone, believer or not, doing nothing to help - yet vocally demanding everyone else needs to be helping.

Exactly, some may. Even if only 1% of all those who pray instead of actually helping someone, then decides to help someone because they no longer pray is reason enough to get rid of the idea of prayer. Also remember, prayer is not an effective means of obtaining happiness, so I don't use that in the equation in determining the usefulness of prayer.

 E.  Prayer is powerful - for believers who know this to be true - and becomes a great and personal way of a believer's life.  And most believers I know do not and will not try and "coerce" others to pray when it's something others do not wish to do.  That point can be made for both sides - everyone willingly chooses what to or what not to believe in their lives, and should not be chided or belittled for doing so.

So... The truth doesn't matter as long as everyone is happy? Sorry, I don't subscribe to the notion of blissful ignorance. I'd rather live in a world where we actually solve problems with practical and logical solutions.

[Flackle]

This just goes to show what a great country this is.  We can discuss/fight/argue over whether there is a God or not.  We are allowed to believe or not.  I believe in God, not because I'm forced to, but because I choose to.  I look around and see all the wonderful things He has created, the trees, the flowers, the animals, and yes, you and me.  In my heart I know there is a God and he loves ALL of us (even you, you who have rejected him).  It is your right to not believe and I respect your beliefs, all I ask is you respect my beliefs also.

Thank you for saying that so well.  Some give respect back and forth, and that's what it's all about.  It's sad when some claim to give respect, but really don't, by the comments implied towards irrationality and being illogical, when claiming to know the Lord.  Our decisions in our personal lives do not affect others' choices in here, yet there seems to be great concern to point out irrationality - thereby showing a bit of their own irrationality in being overly-concerned about what someone chooses to believe (in their own personal lives.)

Pointing out someone's irrationality isn't an attack, it's actually expressing a dissenting viewpoint. Disagreeing with someone isn't a sign of disrepute. I respect your opinion enough to actually take the time want to disagree with it.

Once again, throwing out there misleading information, without including the facts of the situations at hand, including the reasons, background of, events leading up to and beyond, disobedience/obedience of others, etc.  

If you believe there is no God, then you do not believe any of the spouted mistruths you are putting out here.  This means, in actuality, lies are being spread about something you don't believe in or about, which mean those "lies" never took place, according to your interpretation of thinking.  

Researching the history of the events, understanding the facts and information, what happened, and why it happened, is preferable to just spouting half-lies and half-truths about something you know nothing about and claim to disbelieve.  Contradicting yourself gets you nowhere.

Can you be a bit more specific? It's obvious you don't have the same idea of history that we do.

We can discuss this until the end of time.  You have your beliefs and I have mine.  I will RESPECT (not tolerate) yours, and I ask the same of you. 

Exactly!  Some have a difficult time understanding that concept, though.  Yet, many times, believers are the ones being accused of coercing or pushing their beliefs, when actually, it's not but a few over-zealous people who do so.  Just as there are over-zealous disbelievers and/or atheists who have a hard time understanding that everyone, believers or not, has the freedom of religion or no religion, and do not have to answer for what and why they believe.

So... It's okay to not tolerate atheism but its not okay to not tolerate religion? No one has to answer for their religion. I'm not forcing anyone too. No one has to post against me. I am not forcing anyone in any way by means of physical or mental violence. I simply stated my dissenting viewpoint and if someone wants to debate against me they can do so willingly.

[msmoneybags48]

You don't choose to believe in prayer for whatever reason you may have.  I believe that praying to God and His son, Jesus Christ, shows that you are thankful to them for whatever you are blessed with.  Apparently, Satan must be the guidance in your life for you to believe that praying is not helpful.  I pray because it gives me hope that better things are in my grasp.  While it is true that some luck may be up to you, I believe if it weren't for Him, you wouldn't have what you have right now.  Good luck to you and I hope that whatever He gave you, He don't see you as being ungrateful and take it away.  

[Flackle]

I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.

With the massive influx of prayer-related threads as of late, I thought it would be most prudent to just make a thread to cover my overall dissenting viewpoint.

Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.

If god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.

If you want to pray in your own house to make yourself feel better, that's fine. I don't support this action, but I'll leave you alone to do as you wish. When you start to tell others to pray instead of (or when they can be doing) doing something actually useful, then it becomes a problem and it needs to stop.

I am glad that you are not going to force your feelings about prayer on anyone. It has been a proven fact that doctors see changes in patients who do pray and their loved ones who pray for them while they are in comas. Modern medicine is not to have cured these patients and the doctors will say It was not anything I did. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you have yours. Believers also have their rights to express their convictions, so I am sure that God will sort it all out in the end.
BMaston12

I'm glad you don't think I'm forcing my feelings about prayer on anyone, but don't go throwing words like proven fact around like they have no meaning. First of all, there hasn't been a recorded well-sourced correlation between prayer and curing the sick. Let alone it being the cause. I actually cited a study in an earlier post (http://timlightfoot.com/Focus/Intercessory_prayer_study.pdf) that found this correctional doesn't exist.

[Flackle]

You don't choose to believe in prayer for whatever reason you may have.  I believe that praying to God and His son, Jesus Christ, shows that you are thankful to them for whatever you are blessed with.  Apparently, Satan must be the guidance in your life for you to believe that praying is not helpful.  I pray because it gives me hope that better things are in my grasp.  While it is true that some luck may be up to you, I believe if it weren't for Him, you wouldn't have what you have right now.  Good luck to you and I hope that whatever He gave you, He don't see you as being ungrateful and take it away.  

Your attempt to exploit my guilt has failed. That's alright, I'm sure if you try again it may succeed.

[Falconer02]

Apparently, Satan must be the guidance in your life for you to believe that praying is not helpful.

All I read is "I cannot defend my beliefs at all, therefore any opposition I get is from EVIL DEMONS!". In the awesome time we live in, it's occasionally sad to spot a witch-burning mindset.

[jcribb16]

1.  I did not say you were "yelling" at me.  You do this quite frequently when it's obvious no one is yelling.  "Shouting" to the forum is a figure of speech - sorry you didn't realize or chose to not realize the difference.

I never yell at anyone. Rarely do I use all caps, and only use them in points of emphasis. Sorry I read your words literally, I suppose that's just a bad habit of mine. From now on I'll try harder to differentiate when you're being literal or being figurative.

2.  You commented that you were sorry, God is not real.  Your opinion.  I'm saying back there is no need to apologize for your "opinion," but that to me, God is real.  My opinion and belief on the matter, based on things evidenced in my own personal life, others' lives, testimonies, God's Word, amongst other things.  You don't have to believe that - I'm not coercing anyone to do so, especially you, at this point and time.

I will state this as clearly as I possibly can: "Personal experience does not provide sufficient evidence for us to actually believe a divine being actually exist." Its perfectly reasonable to ask for better evidence when faced with something as extraordinary as a divine being. Plus, I never in any of my post suggesting that you coerce people. My qualm with religion isn't based just on you, it's based on the entirety of the faith and it's people. My personal experience is that I have been subjected to coercion on many occasions by Christians in the past. In this case, personal experience is adequate evidence because what I claim is not extraordinary.

3.  You do "appear" to contradict yourself.  You say you "don't want to use the law to change people's view on religion because I don't believe in force and coercion. If someone willingly reads my post and comes to the logical conclusion that religion is made up, then that's great and no force need to be applied."  Yet - you also say, "I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.;  Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. "
 

Those two statements do not contradict one another. I can see why you think my post is an attack against religion, but I am specifically targeting prayer. In fact, if you have any ability to reason you'd realize that the intention of your religion isn't to be-able to solve all your problems by praying to god and hope he fixes everything, but that seems to be the general consensus of many of its followers.

I'm not going to word my post in a way that doesn't assume anything and tries to use politically correct language so that I don't offend anyone. I have to assume that my view point is the right one, otherwise I cannot argue for or against anything. This is basic logical debate 101. In order to argue your own opinion, you have to assume that its right and only change it once you are convinced otherwise. If you spend your time assuming everyone is right in their own way, you can't debate.

Just because I put a post of sharing my view does not mean I am going to use the police to try and arrest someone, or take a gun or other such weapon and threaten someone's life if the don't believe what I do.  You seem to think that force and coercion can be achieved through words, and unless I threaten someone specifically or use my freedom of speech to slander someone specifically then I cannot coerce anyone with a thread.

 A. You "seem" to be trying to "coerce" someone away from making their own personal research and decision with stating your opinion as "implied fact."  You have no proof of what you were saying to be true, anyway, since you do not claim to know God personally, so you therefore have no "conversation/answers" within your "no prayer" personal life.  

I don't think you understand what coercion is. Coercion is using force and intimidation (which is normally done by threatening others). Coercion cannot happen accidentally, as coercion has to do with intent as much as it does with the result of that intent. Again, in order to properly debate you have to state your opinion as "implied fact".

 B. Those who do pray, have been provided answers, whether a direct "no," a "yes," or a maybe not/maybe later.  Usually, with any of these, a believer can determine, if not now, then later, why the answers came to what they were at the time.

Actually, they think they are provided answers. They don't realize these people are finding answers in things that happen as a result of just them happening. Also, just because some people think they are provided answers doesn't qualify as strong enough evidence to point to the existence of god and the effectiveness of prayer.

 C. Regarding your example of prayer as opposed to fund raising efforts/charities to help find a cure for cancer: Believers can, do, and will pray for the cancer victims, families, friends, doctors, nurses - everyone involved, including the scientists working on trying to find a cure.  However, while that's all some people may feel they can do to help in whatever way they can, there are many, believers or not, who also get out there and donate time and money, and help raise funds for the hopeful cures, food, clothing, hospital stays, meds, and/or whatever they can do to help.  We have at least 3 young children just in our small town who are struggling even now with cancer.  It's wonderful and amazing how much support, monetary, prayer, and comfort - are being given and offered by most of the citizens of our town - both believers and disbelievers.  The point is, they are all working together to help try and do something; anything at all, to give support, care, concern, and love.  

So at best prayer has little to no effect on whether someone donates or gives to charity (someone who is unable to actually donate time or money will be unable to do so regardless of prayer). At worse it is used as a substitute (someone prays instead of actually helping because they think prayer is enough). Each person is different, but from what I can tell the overall affects of prayer do little to help and may in fact cause harm.

 D. My point, is that just because some people pray for needs like cancer, does not mean they sit on their duffs and do nothing.  Some may - but most do not; blame for doing "nothing" can actually be applied towards anyone, believer or not, doing nothing to help - yet vocally demanding everyone else needs to be helping.

Exactly, some may. Even if only 1% of all those who pray instead of actually helping someone, then decides to help someone because they no longer pray is reason enough to get rid of the idea of prayer. Also remember, prayer is not an effective means of obtaining happiness, so I don't use that in the equation in determining the usefulness of prayer.

 E.  Prayer is powerful - for believers who know this to be true - and becomes a great and personal way of a believer's life.  And most believers I know do not and will not try and "coerce" others to pray when it's something others do not wish to do.  That point can be made for both sides - everyone willingly chooses what to or what not to believe in their lives, and should not be chided or belittled for doing so.

So... The truth doesn't matter as long as everyone is happy? Sorry, I don't subscribe to the notion of blissful ignorance. I'd rather live in a world where we actually solve problems with practical and logical solutions.

You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance."  Nor am I.  I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions.  No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever.  Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa. 

I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations.  You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it.  I, as a believer, do.  Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.

[jcribb16]

If you believe there is no God, then you do not believe any of the spouted mistruths you are putting out here.

You have failed to show why my logic is false, and therefore have no reason or right to call the reasonings false. Unless you can explain it through realistic means, you are showing the very definition of delusional thinking. I have the right to make examples of why something is fallacious without believing in the supernatural claims I'm speaking against. If you want to call them mistruths, that's your call. But it makes absolutely no sense and shows a very narrow sense of intelligence.

this means, in actuality, lies are being spread about something you don't believe in or about, which mean those "lies" never took place, according to your interpretation of thinking.  

Incorrect. I can make examples of something to better explain why they're false. Just because I don't believe in Santa Claus does not mean I can't make examples of why his existence is implausible.

Researching the history of the events, understanding the facts and information, what happened, and why it happened, is preferable to just spouting half-lies and half-truths about something you know nothing about and claim to disbelieve.  Contradicting yourself gets you nowhere.

Contradicting? Are you serious? If you have a very large equation finished, but find errors anywhere in it after going over it, the whole equation is damaged. Your beliefs and ancient book, as I have proven countless times in the past, is just this. The fact that your beliefs have never been able to withstand any basic skepticism says an overwhelming amount about them. I'm not the one spreading lies. I'm the one explaining why religious 'facts' are fallible and should not be taken seriously. Now before you go and start copy/pasting 10 pages of text from well-known creationist liars to show your 'research' on the subject, I recommend you stop yourself and realize how intellectually dishonest you're being and have been in the past.

You are just one person, behind a screen I might add (as I am also behind a screen), who disagrees with the existence of God.  So naturally, anything regarding God is rejected, including His Word - that is expected.  Fortunately for me and for other believers, your views don't affect my views, your interpretations are simply your interpretations from the outside looking in, thinking you are being plausible, when instead, you are missing the core of understanding, the heart dedicated to God, and misrepresenting truths, leaving out the full points, and attempting in every way to make God look "evil" and "bad." 

You have your personal free will and choice to do so.  It does not change the truth for me and for other believers, who actually experience God's love, comfort, will, guidance, etc., and can see some of the "bigger picture" of everything that has happened from Creation, foretelling of Jesus's birth, death, burial, and resurrection, the free gift of salvation because of His sacrifice on that cross, and of the things that have happened, are happening, and will happen, including the end of time as we know it. 

Speak on, as everyone is free to do so.  Your views do not change nor disprove my views and beliefs.

[Falconer02]

You are just one person, behind a screen I might add (as I am also behind a screen), who disagrees with the existence of God.  So naturally, anything regarding God is rejected, including His Word - that is expected.  Fortunately for me and for other believers, your views don't affect my views

Then you and the others being in debate and discuss is fairly pointless. I'll be the level headed one here and say yours and others viewpoints can affect my viewpoint, but when you and the others cannot provide sufficient evidence of anything involving your beliefs, there's really no point in debating or discussing any truth claims you believe you have.

your interpretations are simply your interpretations from the outside looking in

So I guess the bible is right because the bible says so? That's the problem with not seeing it from the inside looking out. I recall showing you numerous times why your biblical opinions are false and you failing to show why I'm wrong in these justifications. Slavery, the argument of free will, false prophecies, Noah's Ark, etc.  Each time you failed to disprove why this god is not malevolent or how the bible is not fallacious.

thinking you are being plausible, when instead, you are missing the core of understanding, the heart dedicated to God, and misrepresenting truths, leaving out the full points, and attempting in every way to make God look "evil" and "bad."  

And, oddly enough, you've failed the vast majority of the time in making a counter-point when I present the fallacies of your beliefs.

"Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who say they have it."

[sigmapi1501]

Guys c'mon!

We all know the Bible is to be taken literally. UNLESS it condones something negative at which point the words must be interpreted to fit current day culture. Why is that so hard to comprehend???

[Flackle]

You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance."  Nor am I.  I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions.  No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever.  Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.  

I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations.  You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it.  I, as a believer, do.  Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.

If you had even an ounce of logical reasoning, you wouldn't include god. It doesn't matter if prayer is powerful, what matters is whether or not it actually does any good. You said nothing in response to my statement that prayer is harmful to society as a whole, and haven't given me any more evidence to support the claim that prayer works. You don't have too, but my stance still stands as it was. If people don't want to explain themselves, that's fine. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to ask for said explanation. One's silence can speak more than one's words.

[msmoneybags48]

If you feel no guilt, it is a clear indication that you feel no wrong. I feel justified because I do not agree with you and your one-sided beliefs.   I see nobody else agree with you either.

[Flackle]

If you feel no guilt, it is a clear indication that you feel no wrong. I feel justified because I do not agree with you and your one-sided beliefs.   I see nobody else agree with you either.

Then you obviously haven't read anyone else's post on this thread.

Also, we don't have one-sided beliefs. Our beliefs are open to reality, however it happens to presents itself. The scientific method is the best method to understand reality not because it is one-sided but because its open to change as new information is gathered. You're still stuck to a 2000 year old belief system and those who follow said belief systems do everything in their power to defend that belief system regardless of the amount of evidence gathered that contradict that belief system.

[msmoneybags48]

I have my beliefs and you have yours.  Yet in the Ten Commandments he said not to honor false gods.  I honor Him.   I was raised up believing that there is a God and nobody knows when he's returning.

[Falconer02]

I have my beliefs and you have yours.  Yet in the Ten Commandments he said not to honor false gods.  I honor Him.   I was raised up believing that there is a God and nobody knows when he's returning.

Your god is as real as every other god through history. Do you think all the others are false? Talk about a one-sided belief system! You contradict yourself, maddam.