The real actual totally 100% legitimate truth about prayer.

[Flackle]

I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.

With the massive influx of prayer-related threads as of late, I thought it would be most prudent to just make a thread to cover my overall dissenting viewpoint.

Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.

If god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.

If you want to pray in your own house to make yourself feel better, that's fine. I don't support this action, but I'll leave you alone to do as you wish. When you start to tell others to pray instead of (or when they can be doing) doing something actually useful, then it becomes a problem and it needs to stop.

[Sciolaro]

 

[sigmapi1501]

I'll pray for you 

[Falconer02]

I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.

OMG U CANT PROOF THAT SO U CANT SAY THAT

Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I forget who said this- "A thousand people can pray for something to be fixed, but it only takes 1 to get up off of their knees and fix it." The only thing I think you've left out here is that praying can make people feel good. It can act as a placebo effect and get them in high spirits when everything else in or around them is in bad condition. And who knows? Maybe in the future we'll find some quantum force that binds us all together (I hold no belief in this-- just a speculative idea)! I really have no problem with those situations if it's truly helping the person personally. It's when faith healers try to cash in on this idea or when people arrogantly speak of it as truth and are condescending of their apparent god-talking super-power. Y'know. Religion.

If god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.

The whole concept of praying to the Abrahamic god presents numerous logical problems. On one hand, praying and asking the god to make bad things go away would interfere with there being a "divine plan" because the believer is asking god to change something in the plan. If it's that simple and everyone's praying for this god to change things in their favor, there can't be a set plan. In that sense, praying is pointless if one believes there is a divine plan. If one believes god tilts things in their favor, there is no set course and thus the whole concept of a divine plan contradicts the religions teachings. However if one prays after bad things happen ("it's part of god's plan") thanking god for sparing them or opening their eyes to something after a bad experience, they're just praising the god's malevolence. Anyone (believer or not) has life-altering experiences. Good or bad, it's silly (and sometimes dangerous) to equate the experiences to a defined god.

[tangiechan]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.

[Falconer02]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc

True, but generally the person believing in such things has no proof of the god(s) existing. It's a logical fallacy-- it's like me saying I have the power to fly like Superman and when you say you don't believe me, I say it's up to you to prove I don't. The burden of proof is always on the person claiming they have something.

But, what's wrong with having hope?

Research faith healers. They're snake-oil salesmen.

[sanglee]

its the same old age old discussion of religion, is there a God? Of course people will say that preying is useless if they don't believe. It just isn't fun, preyer and religion is just to give hope and promise to people, something to believe in. don't take it that seriously. But doing the right thing never hurts.

[tangiechan]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc

True, but generally the person believing in such things has no proof of the god(s) existing. It's a logical fallacy-- it's like me saying I have the power to fly like Superman and when you say you don't believe me, I say it's up to you to prove I don't. The burden of proof is always on the person claiming they have something.

But, what's wrong with having hope?

Research faith healers. They're snake-oil salesmen.

Okay. Neither side can really prove it. They're both saying the other is wrong, but neither can offer valid, solid proof for their statements/opinions/beliefs.
Nothing is wrong with hope as long as that person doesn't allow themselves to get scammed by people like faith healers (I don't see why you pay someone for something you could probably do yourself, since faith healing involves prayer). It is just the placebo effect. If that makes people feel better, then why not? You'd probably have to be pretty desperate to go to a faith healer though.

[dragonxnp]

       Im sorry you feel this way. There are many things on this earth that prove God is VERY REAL. I pitty you and hope you one day come to the true light.You will certainly find out the minute you die..

[Falconer02]

Okay. Neither side can really prove it. They're both saying the other is wrong, but neither can offer valid, solid proof for their statements/opinions/beliefs.
Nothing is wrong with hope as long as that person doesn't allow themselves to get scammed by people like faith healers (I don't see why you pay someone for something you could probably do yourself, since faith healing involves prayer). It is just the placebo effect. If that makes people feel better, then why not? You'd probably have to be pretty desperate to go to a faith healer though.

I'm glad we're pretty much on the same page. Though I do not leave out the concept of a god/gods/metaphysical entities/etc. in the grand scheme of things, I find the defined-ideas of gods ridiculous. When people say that their god created time and the universe but he hates you eating meat on certain days of the week and demands animal sacrifice, it's a bit ludicrous to introduce that into a rational argument. Though something I forgot to mention is stuff like this--

Im sorry you feel this way. There are many things on this earth that prove God is VERY REAL. I pitty you and hope you one day come to the true light.You will certainly find out the minute you die..

This is another example of prayer (or practiced belief if you will) that's just plain wrong. She states no proof even though she claims to have it. Then she brings up the notion that those that don't have the same opinion/belief as her need pity. "Don't believe in the same myths I do? Well I pity you and hope you figure out I'm right before you die!". It's practically cursing someone. They think it's a loving attitude when in reality it's just self-righteousness/arrogance. There have been many times on this forum where I've argued to the point where the believer is put in a corner and has pretty much stated the same thing to me- "I don't have any answer, so I pity you and I'll pray for you." Cheap.

[Flackle]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.

I can defiantly prove the god of the Bible not only doesn't exist, but cannot possibly exist. Setting aside all the logical fallacies the christian bible presents, it's pretty obvious it was written by humans who where not divinely inspired. All historical evidence points to a long line of writers and editors of the bible. If god was so perfect, why does his book need 100's of revised editions?

I would argue that telling someone they should pray instead of giving them real-world advice that would actually improve their situation is damaging. Pray, in its totality, harms society as a whole rather than helps society. We need to learn to stop relying on false hope, and start relying on ourselves. Science is our attempt to become more self reliant, and it has done a lot so far. Prayer has no place in our modern society, it's a ritual that dates back to the stone age and it should be only remembered as a historical fact rather than a modern day practice.

Again, though, if someone wishes to practice prayer then they should be allowed to if they wish. I don't think is should be made illegal anything like that (I am an avid supporter of freedom of speech, and am frivolously against any form of censorship.), but if someone begins to reach to others and tell them that prayer is the only way to achieve happiness (and this is what I see a lot of) then that's where my line has to be drawn and where my criticisms really begin.

      Im sorry you feel this way. There are many things on this earth that prove God is VERY REAL. I pitty you and hope you one day come to the true light.You will certainly find out the minute you die..

I guess it would be too much to ask for specifics?

[Falconer02]

I can defiantly prove the god of the Bible not only doesn't exist, but cannot possibly exist. Setting aside all the logical fallacies the christian bible presents, it's pretty obvious it was written by humans who where not divinely inspired. All historical evidence points to a long line of writers and editors of the bible. If god was so perfect, why does his book need 100's of revised editions?

I assure you the answer you will get is "It is not as revised as you think. You just don't know enough about it to know it hasn't changed that much through time."
But of course this is false claim. One example- http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha

Again, though, if someone wishes to practice prayer then they should be allowed to if they wish. I don't think is should be made illegal anything like that (I am an avid supporter of freedom of speech, and am frivolously against any form of censorship.), but if someone begins to reach to others and tell them that prayer is the only way to achieve happiness (and this is what I see a lot of) then that's where my line has to be drawn and where my criticisms really begin.

Well said.

[Flackle]

I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.

OMG U CANT PROOF THAT SO U CANT SAY THAT

Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I forget who said this- "A thousand people can pray for something to be fixed, but it only takes 1 to get up off of their knees and fix it." The only thing I think you've left out here is that praying can make people feel good. It can act as a placebo effect and get them in high spirits when everything else in or around them is in bad condition. And who knows? Maybe in the future we'll find some quantum force that binds us all together (I hold no belief in this-- just a speculative idea)! I really have no problem with those situations if it's truly helping the person personally. It's when faith healers try to cash in on this idea or when people arrogantly speak of it as truth and are condescending of their apparent god-talking super-power. Y'know. Religion.

If god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.

The whole concept of praying to the Abrahamic god presents numerous logical problems. On one hand, praying and asking the god to make bad things go away would interfere with there being a "divine plan" because the believer is asking god to change something in the plan. If it's that simple and everyone's praying for this god to change things in their favor, there can't be a set plan. In that sense, praying is pointless if one believes there is a divine plan. If one believes god tilts things in their favor, there is no set course and thus the whole concept of a divine plan contradicts the religions teachings. However if one prays after bad things happen ("it's part of god's plan") thanking god for sparing them or opening their eyes to something after a bad experience, they're just praising the god's malevolence. Anyone (believer or not) has life-altering experiences. Good or bad, it's silly (and sometimes dangerous) to equate the experiences to a defined god.

I realize that prayer can make others feel better, and I usually support anything that does this. I just think there is more effective means to achieve happiness (like actually doing something). If someone wishes to partake in prayer, that's their decision and they should have a right to do so. But I am still going to criticize them, especially if they get on a forum and start to tell others the key to happiness is through prayer.

Overall, though, you're effectively stating what I tried to state but you did it more clearly than I could.

[tangiechan]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.

I can defiantly prove the god of the Bible not only doesn't exist, but cannot possibly exist. Setting aside all the logical fallacies the christian bible presents, it's pretty obvious it was written by humans who where not divinely inspired. All historical evidence points to a long line of writers and editors of the bible. If god was so perfect, why does his book need 100's of revised editions?

I would argue that telling someone they should pray instead of giving them real-world advice that would actually improve their situation is damaging. Pray, in its totality, harms society as a whole rather than helps society. We need to learn to stop relying on false hope, and start relying on ourselves. Science is our attempt to become more self reliant, and it has done a lot so far. Prayer has no place in our modern society, it's a ritual that dates back to the stone age and it should be only remembered as a historical fact rather than a modern day practice.

Again, though, if someone wishes to practice prayer then they should be allowed to if they wish. I don't think is should be made illegal anything like that (I am an avid supporter of freedom of speech, and am frivolously against any form of censorship.), but if someone begins to reach to others and tell them that prayer is the only way to achieve happiness (and this is what I see a lot of) then that's where my line has to be drawn and where my criticisms really begin.

While it's true that the Bible has been revised many times and things have been taken out, that still isn't enough evidence to conclude that the god of the Bible doesn't exist. You still can't prove if the actions in the Bible happened or not (unless you can time travel or something). Even though it was written by humans, you can't say that they lied/made it all up just because they were not divinely inspired. I agree with your statements about science. Honestly, if we hadn't pursued science we'd all be stuck in the stone age and there probably wouldn't be any advancements.
Yes, I totally understand what you mean. People who follow a certain religion/belief system tend to believe that their way is right and everything else isn't. It's offensive to others, but they're taught that their way is the right way and that it's their duty to tell others that it is.

[diala84]

If a person believes in something that makes them feel better and doesn't hurt others why does it matter if it isn't true. Sometimes our experience of the world can be improved by our beliefs. If I really thought about all the terrible things that are happening every day all over the world so many of which are out of our control it would cause even the most sane person to go insane or worse. If some people feel that prayer improves their life and the life of others then why stop or persuade them otherwise.