Gay Marriage

[aspenl]

What I took away from your post is that the Old Covenant shouldn't be followed in any literal sense because Jesus brought a New Covenant, a higher law than in the past.  Correct?
If Jesus brought a higher law than the Old Covenant, and this higher law is the one to be followed, then application of the OT in any literal sense to form any moral view to the present day is illegitimate.  Again, you can't have your cake and eat it too.  If the Old Covenant is lesser than the New Covenant, and we should follow the New Covenant, you can't use the Old Covenant as support for any moral stance on homosexuality (or anything else).

For the sake of your argument lets pretend I don't believe in the old testament (which is not true).  However we will do this for the sake of your stance.  I gave examples from the new testament as well that refer to the same issue.  Look through those and then I would like to know if you think I am still not including the new testament in my stance on the topic, but am merely getting the foundation of my stance from a part of the bible that is 'outdated.'

On another note, what do you make of the numerous times Jesus himself is quoted as saying and implying that he did not come to abolish the old ways at all, that the OT is the "infallible word of God" and should be followed as such, etc.?

Please show me what your are referring to with this statement.

[firefly001]

The Old Testament is there for us to know what happened and to learn from it,the lessons to be learned; like learn from others and their mistakes. I never said it was irrelevant. (never) "People are quoting random stuff from the Bible about the morals of homosexuality and how it shouldn't be accepted because the Bible says so.  So, again, I ask why those same people don't follow the other moral guidelines very clearly utlined throughout the Bible". I gave random quotes to support my stance. You must know me from some where to say I don't follow the other moral teaching/rules from the Bible. "So the morals found in the OT shouldn't be followed in the present world?" Again I never said that"."I'm asking how people can use the Bible (the OT specifically) as support for their stance in opposition to homosexuality, but they refuse to carry out or even promote the other moral guidelines in the OT" Again you all must know me from some where to tell what I do and don't do (don't insult me)

"Why do you deserve some kind of special treatment because you're a Christian or believe in God?  What makes that something worthy of being put on a pedestal?  Do you enjoy being lumped into an organization responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths, suppression of knowledge and progress, and oppression of many groups over centuries, among other things?  Why does it matter if you "trust the word?"  You should get special credit for believing "the word" of a 2000 year old book written by uneducated, ignorant individuals and edited by the hands of thousands of people with agendas over thousands of years?"
 You lost me, I have no clue what you are talking about, nobody's taking claim or resposibility for anything, and certainly no one's looking for special treatment I was simply refering to the signs of times you all would have picked up on it with my series of such questions.

"Drop the ego infesting your religion" - Again I am not affilated with a religion and I am certainly not egotistical (friends and family can vouch for that).

"Again, not trying to sound rude, but how can you feel sorry for the current and future generations for their do-what-you-want attitude... yet say that you will pick which parts of the Bible you wish to follow (discarding the rest)? Does that not make you a part of the problem that you speak of?"
I do not do that and I did not say that, I was being sacastic and refering to religious people I met and had these experiences with.

Perhaps that in itself is the biggest reason why religious beliefs should never be used to create/defend laws. The parts you wish to follow, somebody else may want to discard... yet the parts that others wish to follow, you have discarded.
                                                                                    Again I have discarded nothing, what is the topic, Gay marriage/relationship. When we have a discussion of Sodom and Gomorrah, or What are the Commandments etc. I will gladly give the scriptures to support them.
Again you all don't know me so don't accuse me of things I do not do? If you do not understand what I am trying to say; then say that, but don't put words into my mouth or change up the meaning of what I am trying to say.

[liljp617]

For the sake of your argument lets pretend I don't believe in the old testament (which is not true).  However we will do this for the sake of your stance.  I gave examples from the new testament as well that refer to the same issue.  Look through those and then I would like to know if you think I am still not including the new testament in my stance on the topic, but am merely getting the foundation of my stance from a part of the bible that is 'outdated.'

I also gave a few examples from the NT, specifically one's confirming slavery is not immoral (and I could have given other examples of blatantly immoral things in the NT).  I'm pretty certain you don't promote slavery or accept it or what the Bible has to say about it.  Why?  Why do you go against the "word of God" on that issue, but still feel no problem taking your stance on homosexuality from this exact same book?

Please show me what your are referring to with this statement.

Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, "The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as "the commandment of God" (Matthew 15:3) and as the "Word of God" (Matthew 15:6). He also indicated that it was indestructible: "Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (Matthew 5:18).  Clearly this is very contradictory to some of the things you've posted on the issue of Jesus bringing the New Covenant to erase the Old.

When dealing with the people of His day, whether it was with the disciples or religious rulers, Jesus constantly referred to the Old Testament: "Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?" (Matthew 22:31); "Yea; and have you never read, 'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes thou hast prepared praise for thyself'?" (Matthew 21:16, citing Psalm 8:2); and "Have you not read what David did?" (Matthew 12:3). Examples could be multiplied to demonstrate that Jesus was conversant with the Old Testament and its content. He quoted from it often and He trusted it totally.

If he came to replace it with a more rational system of morals, why didn't he consistently condemn the moral system the OT puts forth?

[liljp617]

The Old Testament is there for us to know what happened and to learn from it,the lessons to be learned; like learn from others and their mistakes. I never said it was irrelevant. (never) "People are quoting random stuff from the Bible about the morals of homosexuality and how it shouldn't be accepted because the Bible says so.  So, again, I ask why those same people don't follow the other moral guidelines very clearly utlined throughout the Bible". I gave random quotes to support my stance. You must know me from some where to say I don't follow the other moral teaching/rules from the Bible. "So the morals found in the OT shouldn't be followed in the present world?" Again I never said that"."I'm asking how people can use the Bible (the OT specifically) as support for their stance in opposition to homosexuality, but they refuse to carry out or even promote the other moral guidelines in the OT" Again you all must know me from some where to tell what I do and don't do (don't insult me)

The OT is there for us to learn from, not take literal moral views away from?

I don't have to know you to assume you don't take part in or promote things like stoning people, enslaving people, forcing rape victims to marry their rapist, etc.  If you do actually do these things, we have bigger problems.  But I'm about as certain as possible that you don't.  It doesn't require I know you to make such an assumption.

And seeing as how you most likely don't do those things, you're discarding moral views promoted by "the word of God."  So I ask, again, why don't you uphold or even promote moral views found in the OT on issues such as adultery, rape, slavery, etc., but do uphold or promote moral views found in the OT on issues like homosexuality?

"Why do you deserve some kind of special treatment because you're a Christian or believe in God?  What makes that something worthy of being put on a pedestal?  Do you enjoy being lumped into an organization responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths, suppression of knowledge and progress, and oppression of many groups over centuries, among other things?  Why does it matter if you "trust the word?"  You should get special credit for believing "the word" of a 2000 year old book written by uneducated, ignorant individuals and edited by the hands of thousands of people with agendas over thousands of years?"
 You lost me, I have no clue what you are talking about, nobody's taking claim or resposibility for anything, and certainly no one's looking for special treatment I was simply refering to the signs of times you all would have picked up on it with my series of such questions.

You stated very clearly:

I'm a young adult I should be getting support for at least having what I believe are moral values, for believing in God, and trusting in the Word. Most teens and young adults have a don't care attitude and  get into situations they get into because of it.

Why should you get support for believing in God or believing in the Bible?  You put forth the idea that, because most teens and young adults have moved away from religion (which is false by the way based on current polls and studies), you should get some kind of special support for upholding these beliefs.  Why do you deserve such treatment?  Why shouldn't your beliefs be held under just as much scrutiny as your political beliefs, favorite sports team, favorite shoes, etc.?  Why do you suppose some type of theistic belief is inherently special or good?


The rest of your post is too difficult to respond to and would take too long.  It would be much easier if you didn't quote somebody, then write your reply in the middle of their post.  There are quote tags for a reason and that's to keep things organized throughout a discussion so people don't have to sift through everything to find your reply.

[madmansmom]

i could care less what others do in their own bed so long as it isnt illegal

[firefly001]

You all are grown folks with enough common sense, and knowledge and have the resources to back you up to make right and moral choices.

Like I said previously, which stated above. If we are learning from the OT I would think that what we learn  we would take with us and not make the same miistakes,

having sound judgement and having the knowledge of what's right and wrong. Stoning People = Murder: thou shall not commit murder.

                                                                                                         Enslaving People = they receiving cruel and unusual punishments, Rape = Held captive,

with inflection of pain and agony: Love thy neighbor, and treat others the way you would want to be treated. Slavery and Rape doesn't show actions of love and I don't

 think any of you would like to be enslaved and raped after raping and enslaving others(treat others the same as you expect to be treated).

[snyperthugs]

WHO CARES!!!! lol  Only worry about if "YOU" are in the situation 

[firefly001]

And seeing as how you most likely don't do those things, you're discarding moral views promoted by "the word of God."  So I ask, again, why don't you uphold or even promote moral views found in the OT on issues such as adultery, rape, slavery, etc., but do uphold or promote moral views found in the OT on issues like homosexuality?

I wasn't aware that we were doing a promotion. I thought we were all having a discussion onn gay marriage and relationships only and what our views are on the subject

being discussed.

Why should you get support for believing in God or believing in the Bible?  You put forth the idea that, because most teens and young adults have moved away from religion (which is false by the way based on current polls and studies), you should get some kind of special support for upholding these beliefs.  Why do you deserve such treatment?  Why shouldn't your beliefs be held under just as much scrutiny as your political beliefs, favorite sports team, favorite shoes, etc.?  Why do you suppose some type of theistic belief is inherently special or good?

Like I said before I'm not asking for any speacial treatment, but any responsible adult with some christian upbringing and proper home training like the elderly people would say;

would support a young person on that path of knowledge and truth.

Unless of course you're an atheist. Had a friend who was atheist the relationship didn't last; she was trying to get us believers to believe that God didn't exist. Sparked a big

 debate in class.

And what studies do you refer too claiming that such things are false?

I have no problem being under scrutiny, I have no political beliefs, I have no favorite sports team; I enjoy playing all sports and I have no favorite shoes, they're just shoes. 

[Ebbtide]

Wow. There is some serious discussion going on in this thread. Just to throw in my 2cents. It doesn't take a genius to know that READING THE BIBLE does not equate knowing EVERYTHING. I support Gay Marriage and I think a God who is LOVE would do the same.

End of rant. 

[liljp617]

And seeing as how you most likely don't do those things, you're discarding moral views promoted by "the word of God."  So I ask, again, why don't you uphold or even promote moral views found in the OT on issues such as adultery, rape, slavery, etc., but do uphold or promote moral views found in the OT on issues like homosexuality?

I wasn't aware that we were doing a promotion. I thought we were all having a discussion onn gay marriage and relationships only and what our views are on the subject

being discussed.

Why should you get support for believing in God or believing in the Bible?  You put forth the idea that, because most teens and young adults have moved away from religion (which is false by the way based on current polls and studies), you should get some kind of special support for upholding these beliefs.  Why do you deserve such treatment?  Why shouldn't your beliefs be held under just as much scrutiny as your political beliefs, favorite sports team, favorite shoes, etc.?  Why do you suppose some type of theistic belief is inherently special or good?

Like I said before I'm not asking for any speacial treatment, but any responsible adult with some christian upbringing and proper home training like the elderly people would say;

would support a young person on that path of knowledge and truth.

Unless of course you're an atheist. Had a friend who was atheist the relationship didn't last; she was trying to get us believers to believe that God didn't exist. Sparked a big

 debate in class.

And what studies do you refer too claiming that such things are false?

I have no problem being under scrutiny, I have no political beliefs, I have no favorite sports team; I enjoy playing all sports and I have no favorite shoes, they're just shoes. 

An entire post of strawman arguments and red herring fallacies  :-

Again, you find some magical way to avoid the question.  How can you pull one word out of a clear question and make some random comment without paying any attention to the substance of the question?  That's some talent right there.

Let's recap:  I've asked three people this question, none have answered.  Two refuse to answer, one blatantly jumps around the question every time.  Interesting.

Any person of any beliefs different from your own wouldn't go out of their way to support what you believe to be "the truth."  There are plenty of people besides atheists who would raise the same concern that I did.

And what a crazy girl trying to discuss the idea that God might not exist.  How dare she bring up such a notion and try to get other people to see her point.  Religious people NEVER do that!

[kristysaiko]

Wow. This post is pretty deep. I definitely believe in gay marriage. My mother is gay and has been with her partner for over 12 years. Also, my friend's aunt is gay and has been with her partner for almost 50 years. I think that's great. No harm done.

[PublicNuisance]

I worry about myself and my soul, and let God worry about others selves and souls. If God decides that that loving another person because they are the same sex is worthy enough to send another person to hell, than that's up to God to decide and not me. Seems a bit harsh to throw people in hell for that, but that's my opinion. Frankly I don't know Gods mind so I don't know if he is that harsh.

[cah5525]

absolutely agree. My God is a loving God... don't know who all the haters are looking up to? I'll say it again - you don't have to like or agree with how other people live their lives, just - LIVE and let LIVE! You can go on hating and spend your time and energy doing so but, you have no right to impose your views on others or make them miserable. You so completely believe that your God is one of judgement, well then, leave the judging up to him!

[liljp617]

I worry about myself and my soul, and let God worry about others selves and souls. If God decides that that loving another person because they are the same sex is worthy enough to send another person to hell, than that's up to God to decide and not me. Seems a bit harsh to throw people in hell for that, but that's my opinion. Frankly I don't know Gods mind so I don't know if he is that harsh.

Well he does have, at the very least, a six figure murder/death toll.

[corrupted1]

I think that cah5525 said it best! Let God be the judge and jury! Who are we to pick apart and evaluate others choices in how they choose to  live THEIR lives!?