does god send you...

[falcon9]

Destruction and chaos of YOUR world caused by YOUR choices.  We, on the other hand will be removed from it.

Oh, because no judeo-xtians or muslims are contributing to such chaos and destruction by their choices?  You certainly are a hypocrit and your specious belief that you can slash-and-burn and then run from the responsibility for doing so is a laughable irrational superstitious belief without merit.  You simply "hope" that your specious belief will come to pass and when it doesn't, (because it's nonsensical), you'll snap like a dry twig, (I mean, even moreso than the precarious grip on pseudo-sanity you evince now).

[falcon9]

Destruction and chaos of YOUR world caused by YOUR choices.  We, on the other hand will be removed from it.

As I asked before-- proof plz. Avoid the circular reasoning with the biblical scripture.

Doubtless your challenge is "unfair" to xtians who are unable to avoid such circular non-reasoning.  They could at least try reasoning once, just for a change, couldn't they?

[skrogman]

Exactly, Falcon9, the whole basis of all of my KNOWLEDGE, all of my life, every decision I make, every relationship I form, every word from my mouth is with SCRIPTUALLY BASED forethought, headed toward the goal of joining my Lord, my grandparents and my father where I know they are rejoicing and singing His praises.

[falcon9]

Exactly, Falcon9, the whole basis of all of my KNOWLEDGE, all of my life, every decision I make, every relationship I form, every word from my mouth is with SCRIPTUALLY BASED forethought, headed toward the goal of joining my Lord, my grandparents and my father where I know they are rejoicing and singing His praises.

All of that has no evidentiary basis and instead, relies entirely upon blind faith without knowledge, (blind religious faith and knowledge are mutually-exclusive terms).  What happens when your hopes don't materialize?  It'll be too late to regret the waste of life an exchange for empty promises in some hypothetical afterlife.

"Religion is based ... mainly upon fear ... fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand . . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."
-- Bertrand Russell

[skrogman]

Alright, what?  My hopes are certain and written to materialize.  On what are you laying your hopes?  Nothing more than just this, what we have now only worse?  That would be fear to me.   And as I have stated before I do not say I have religion, I say I have relationship and that completely alleviates fear.  I may have fear of dying, but absolutely none of death...that is two completely concepts.  And how is fear the parent of cruelty?  Wow...you have now opened about 1,000,000 different cans of worms here.  How is fear the parent of cruelty?  We have already explored in another thread that if today's children were allowed to be raised with the fear and respect that we were that this generation would not be headed in this direction.  And Bertrand Russel's statement using the "untold misery" choice of words is inaccurate as well because mankind has been warned centuries ago of the misery that would be caused by neglect of choice.  Also, are you trying to tell me that my grandparents and father are not in that Kingdom awaiting my arrival?  That would be another whole issue entirely...let's go....

[skrogman]

And Falconeer02,  I did not tell you "go to Hell, have a nice day.".  That choice is sequential to the choices you have already made for yourself.  I did not say that.  I just said it is a written consequence of the choices you have made (or failed to make) in life.   You know, choices like putting words in my mouth that were not there to begin with.  Words that come from my mouth are words like "amen",  "praise", "fellowship", and "thanks".  The latter of which being one I tried to express to Falcon9 only to chew again, but that's expected.   

[Falconer02]

I did not tell you "go to Hell, have a nice day.".  That choice is sequential to the choices you have already made for yourself.  I did not say that.  I just said it is a written consequence of the choices you have made (or failed to make) in life.   You know, choices like putting words in my mouth that were not there to begin with.

Your exact words were-

"Trust me...that cavernous pit will still be there waiting on you, but there is ONE AND ONLY ONE way to escape it."

So since I do not believe your mythology or would I ever fall to such delusions (by definition), you're telling me I'm going to hell. Nice false dilemma you've thrown me into! So you did say "go to hell", just obviously worded differently which is why I stated "This translates to". I do not believe nor talk of people being thrown in a pit where they are tormented (or whatever disgusting dish you select) forever as it is simply cursing others in a primitive fashion. I could bring up the many fallacies the concept of hell creates which really would make any decent person think about. If you'd like, of course. However since you have already brought up your emotional bearings and how tight your relationship is with something that cannot be proven to exist, I completely understand if you do not wish to discuss such obvious faults.

Words that come from my mouth are words like "amen",  "praise", "fellowship", and "thanks".  The latter of which being one I tried to express to Falcon9 only to chew again, but that's expected.

I notice in the past that the most ignorant and delusional (again, by definition) christians here are the ones who say their "beliefs are only strengthened" when faced with basic questions and obvious flaws put forth by the skeptics that they refuse to answer. You unfortunately have been an example of this. Not only that, but now you're goading both yourself and Falcon9 after saying stuff like this-

"We just choose not to have the negative, trolling, down-putting thoughts that those heading nowhere in life spew venomously out."
"the lack of anything at all to hold onto which causes you to do nothing other than troll around jealous of what the true Christians have and you are lacking."

Falcon9 has not trolled you, but simply pointed out basic flaws in your reasoning. That's it.

Doubtless your challenge is "unfair" to xtians who are unable to avoid such circular non-reasoning.  They could at least try reasoning once, just for a change, couldn't they?

Speaking of which, I'm still waiting!

[skrogman]

Yes, Falconeer2, the concept of Hell is a lot to think about, which is yet another reason I stick even more tightly to my Savior and know that I have been redeemed from that possibility...so if you feel the need, bring it.  However, it is not appealing to me to think of the amount of time that the word "eternity" implies and spend mine in that way, hence the reason for the VERY CONSCIOUS choice that I made long ago.   And I have no problem backing up what I know as long as you want to fight this out, but when I was referring to Falcon9's trolling around the forum, it is funny to me that your self-divulging, attention seeking, jealous ego had to troll its way on into the conversation while he thinks he was big boy enough to defend those deluded teachings on his own...so now, 2 on 1...let's go...Oh wait, I have the entire Kingdom on my side on this one....bring it.
And Falcon9, don't take that "big boy" as a compliment now, when as I tried to legitimately thank you earlier it couldn't simply be accepted as such.  I just know that when Falconeer2 saw that you were the weak link in this chain, he felt the need to pipe up.

[falcon9]

Alright, what?  My hopes are certain and written to materialize. 

No, this is merely your faith-based belief, (in that faith has no evidentiary basis and in fact, relishes the lack of evidence as if it's noble to be irrational).

I say I have relationship and that completely alleviates fear. 

Yes, you "say" this and believe you do however, there's nothing to distinguish such a specious belief and a self-delusion.  In fact, to declare that your religious belief alleviates fear merely reveals fear concealed by delusion. 

And how is fear the parent of cruelty? 

It was fear which caused followers of your superstitious religious belief to launch the crusades in order to persecute and kill, (there's the cruelty), others who believed differently.  It was fear that instigated the Inquisitions by religious fanatics of your "faith" to persecute and kill those they deemed as "witches", (not a stretch to define as "cruel").  It was fear that caused followers of your religious superstition to 'assimulate' and kill "pagan" 'unbelievers' whose religions preceded the cult of xtianity by thousands of years.  You ask how this can be, are you really that blinded by faith?

We have already explored in another thread that if today's children were allowed to be raised with the fear and respect that we were that this generation would not be headed in this direction.

On the contrary, many of mankind's problems stem from such fundamentalist religions' followers brain-washing/indoctrinated children at young enough ages that they are raised in the same myopic hatreds your "religion" espouses under the false banner of "love".

  And Bertrand Russel's statement using the "untold misery" choice of words is inaccurate ...

No, you ignorant fundie, the Inquistions, the Crusades and the suppression/assimulation of "pagans" at the point of a sword is precisely accurate.

Also, are you trying to tell me that my grandparents and father are not in that Kingdom awaiting my arrival?  That would be another whole issue entirely...let's go....

Don't try to put words in my mouth, it would make me sound as stupid as you do.  What I said was that there is no evidence to support the "hopes", (religious claims, sans evidence), you tried to assert as if a belief were equivalent to a fact.  It isn't. Since you made the claim, it's your responsibility to support it with evidence, (neither "faith", 'bibles', nor "belief" constitute actual evidence).  Since you have no evidence, your claims are specious/empty ones.

[Falconer02]

it is funny to me that your self-divulging, attention seeking, jealous ego had to troll its way on into the conversation while he thinks he was big boy enough to defend those deluded teachings on his own

Nope. Just trying to get my post count up while enjoying arguments with the religious fundamentalists.

And I have no problem backing up what I know as long as you want to fight this out

And yet here you are, never providing proof after all this time like we've asked. Perhaps you should answer our questions and be respectful like your bible commands you to in 1 Peter 3:15. Maybe then your hypocrisy will cease?

so now, 2 on 1...let's go...Oh wait, I have the entire Kingdom on my side on this one....bring it.

Very well. Please ask your kingdom these questions as I'd be pleased to hear a logical/rational answer-

1.) Why does an omnipotent loving god allow for the existance of an evil antagonist and a place of eternal damnation? How is this not malevolent to create them in the first place?

2.) If this defined god exists , and it is moral and loving and worthy of respect, then why is it bothered so much that people have rational doubts about it and rational reasons for not believing in it? This god surely wouldn't punish people for exercising their critical thinking skills and being skeptical of the claims of other "fallible humans", right? Why is that worthy of eternal damnation?

3.) Coming from #2, why would you want to spend an eternity with a god who punishes people who exercise their brains and question this god? You're calling me egotistical when your entire belief system centers around an egotistical deity!

4.) If he is indeed omniscient, he knows past, present, and future, correct? Thus he already knows who is going to hell and who isn't. Therefore nobody can exercise freewill and our fates are sealed before we're even born. Please explain how you are not a fatalist and how is this even remotely fair.

5.) How is "choosing" your god over hell even a choice? How is "Worship me or suffer for eternity" not coercion?

[falcon9]

... when I was referring to Falcon9's trolling around the forum ...

I don't 'troll' "around the forum", I reply to the xtian proselytizing trollings.  You'd see the distinction were you not blinded by your faith.

And Falcon9, don't take that "big boy" as a compliment now, when as I tried to legitimately thank you earlier it couldn't simply be accepted as such.  I just know that when Falconeer2 saw that you were the weak link in this chain, he felt the need to pipe up.

You apparently don't "know" and instead, simply claim to know without evidence beyond your empty claim for this.  As to your childish non-compliment, "Falconer02" already addressed the logical fallacy inherent in your unsupported false assertions.  For one, there's no "chain" to be either a "weak" or strong link in, (that's xtian 'sheeple' rationalizing and doesn't apply to non-sheep).  For another, you 'debate' ineptly, making empty assertions which you either cannot support or, are unable to substantiate while wrapping yourself in the "emperor's clothing" of blind faith.

[skrogman]

Ok, first, troll #2 edges his way into a conversation challenging me to fight a spiritual battle without straight out quoting from the Bible, which is like being challenged to a knife fight and saying no blades, but ok, I hold up to that.  And he comes at me with 1st Peter?  Wow. But ok. And to answer why does an omnipotent, loving God allow for the existence of an evil antagonist...the antagonist to which you are referring is actually a jealous fallen angel who once had his place in the Kingdom.  From that jealousy, he thought that he could rise up and be as God (his creator).  Therefore in answer to his jealous behavior God did indeed give him a place to rule and put him in his place.  Therefore, he was not created as evil...again, consequences of his own choice in actions.  And why is God bothered so much by the doubts of unbelievers?  Because as stated over and over, He has laid His proof all around us and watched His one and only Son die for us and some still say "oh well".  And I will count it all joy to spend my eternity with not a God, but the God, who has separated His Church from those who have turned on Him.   He is absolutely not punishing people for making choices, He is rewarding His people for true and faithful service and honor to Him.   And, yes, you are very right in the statement of predestination.  Indeed, nothing we do can surprise God.  When I pray and say to Him "Lord, why did I do that?"  He reveals later that whatever I did was a part of a greater plan and it all comes together for His glory.   And choosing God over Hell is a simple choice.  Did not say it did not involve a lot of hard work, but it's a simple choice.  

[skrogman]

And, no, please do not say I am "wrapping myself in the Emporer's clothing"  of faith...that purple robe I am not worthy to wear.  I do not deny, I put the blood stains on it, but cannot wear it.   I would never say that.

[falcon9]

And to answer why does an omnipotent, loving God allow for the existence of an evil antagonist...the antagonist to which you are referring is actually a jealous fallen angel who once had his place in the Kingdom.  From that jealousy, he thought that he could rise up and be as God (his creator).  Therefore in answer to his jealous behavior God did indeed give him a place to rule and put him in his place.  Therefore, he was not created as evil...again, consequences of his own choice in actions.

Your "answer" derives from a superstitious mythology cobbled-together, edited and retranslated into variations called "the bible".  Omitting "verse" references to this self-referential source does not constitute not using it to prop up a religious mythology which still has no evidentiary basis and relies upon hearsay and unsupported "faith" in lieu of actual evidence.

And why is God bothered so much by the doubts of unbelievers?  Because as stated over and over, He has laid His proof all around us and watched His one and only Son die for us and some still say "oh well".

The "soteriological" argument of 'sacrifice' is internally-illogical since there is no rational correspondence between a supernatural ransom and "absolving" of "sins".  This entirely irrational basis for an equally nonsensical "redemption" contains no reasoning whatsoever and is instead, chock-full of faith-based nonsense which requires the suspension of disbelief and more faith-based nonsense to baffle those unable to discern the null-content of the premise of soteriology.

You've demonstrated this faith-based nonsense piled upon more faith-based nonsense which does not support the previous faith-based nonsense.  The entire non-argument is circular and self-refuting.  That is, your specious declarations defeat your own argument's premise.
  

"The study of theology,  as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing."
--Thomas Paine, in The Age Of Reason

[falcon9]

And, no, please do not say I am "wrapping myself in the Emporer's clothing"  of faith...that purple robe I am not worthy to wear.  I do not deny, I put the blood stains on it, but cannot wear it.   I would never say that.

Your assertions indicated a pronounced self-delusion.

"You're a loony!"
-- Arthur, in Holy Grail