What Is Your Evidence?

[momoney555]

So many have viciously made fun of my seeing the angel I described at the beginning of these posts, But I do believe the topic is  What is your evidence, not what is the Evidence






I can fully appreciate and relate to your experience.  Although I have never encountered an angel, I know others who have,  my mother, to be exact, so I have heard recounts like yours before. Although you may have believed before,this was proof to you of the existence of God and there is nothing now that can convince you that God does not exist, after having a faith affirming experience like that, I know.  For me the faith affirming experience in my life happened at the age of 14 at a church revival.  Although I knew about God, I was a skeptic, but I was seeking the truth.  I had seen this happen to others but wasnt sure if they were faking it or not,  But when It happened to me, personally being touched by the Holy Spirit, it erased all doubt from my mind about the existence of God. I have never doubted since that day, that a powerful God does indeed exist. I cant offer my personal experience as proof to an unbeliever that God exists. It is impossible to prove to anyone that this even happened to me. This was MY PROOF. Faith affirming proof is different for each individual person and it comes from God. What affirms my faith will not necessarily affirm yours. Therefore, this discussion/debate has turned into a dog chasing his tail.  The only way to get proof that will satisfy someone of the existence of God is for them to ask God for it. But since they dont believe in God I guess that wont happen.  Believers can only give you their proof. This post was intended for those who have their own evidence to share it, not to prove anything to unbelievers.  If they want proof that affirms God's existence, it will have to come from God.

[falcon9]

Although I have never encountered an angel, I know others who have,  my mother, to be exact, so I have heard recounts like yours before.

That is unsubstantiated hearsay and does not constitute evidentiary "proof" of the contended claim.

Although you may have believed before,this was proof to you of the existence of God and there is nothing now that can convince you that God does not exist, after having a faith affirming experience like that, I know. 

That is merely an affirmation of holding a blind religious faith confirming a pre-existing unsupported belief which is implicitly being claimed as impervious to rationality.

But when It happened to me, personally being touched by the Holy Spirit, it erased all doubt from my mind about the existence of God. I have never doubted since that day, that a powerful God does indeed exist.

"Definition of TOUCHED {http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/touched}:

1: emotionally stirred (as with gratitude)
2: slightly unbalanced mentally"

I cant offer my personal experience as proof to an unbeliever that God exists. It is impossible to prove to anyone that this even happened to me.

That is correct; a vague, undefined and entirely subjective claimed "personal experience" of being "touched" does not constitute evidence supporting that claim, (for anyone - "believers" being predisposed in favor of religious bias however, are more likely to overlook the lack of evidence in order to be enabling of the same self-deception).

This was MY PROOF. Faith affirming proof is different for each individual person and it comes from God.

You continually misuse the word "proof", (and "evidence").  Neither "faith" nor "religious belief" constitute proof/evidence.  Using faith to bolster belief is circular since neither provide a substantive evidentiary basis for the other.

The only way to get proof that will satisfy someone of the existence of God is for them to ask God for it. But since they dont believe in God I guess that wont happen.  Believers can only give you their proof.

Since neither "belief" nor "faith" are evidential proof, none has been presented for discussion, (previous invalid submissions are logically disregarded).

This post was intended for those who have their own evidence to share it, not to prove anything to unbelievers.  

This post was made in a publically-available FC forum, not in some private xtian propaganda site.  That being the case, FC members who choose to reply can do so in the manner they choose, (within FC guidelines), and not at the insubstantive whimsy of the blind-faithers.  All you've managed to do is confirm that your religious claims have no evidentiary basis since you cannot produce your hypothetical deital egregore to present substantive evidence, (relying instead on hearsay allegedly attributed randomly to the hypothetical egregore by the egregore's followers). 

[momoney555]

Sadly to say, there was another deadly shooting in America today.  This time in Wisconsin at a Sikh Temple during their Sunday services.  7 people died (one of them was the shooter)many more were injured.  Early accounts seem to indicate that it was a case of domestic terrorism motivated by religious intolerance.  How tragic and sad.

[jcribb16]

Sadly to say, there was another deadly shooting in America today.  This time in Wisconsin at a Sikh Temple during their Sunday services.  7 people died (one of them was the shooter)many more were injured.  Early accounts seem to indicate that it was a case of domestic terrorism motivated by religious intolerance.  How tragic and sad.

I hadn't heard that today.  That is indeed tragic and sad.  There's no reason for intolerance like that, to the point of domestic terrorism.

[falcon9]

Sadly to say, there was another deadly shooting in America today.  This time in Wisconsin at a Sikh Temple during their Sunday services.  7 people died (one of them was the shooter)many more were injured.  Early accounts seem to indicate that it was a case of domestic terrorism motivated by religious intolerance.  How tragic and sad.

I hadn't heard that today.  That is indeed tragic and sad.  There's no reason for intolerance like that, to the point of domestic terrorism.

If it was motivated by religious intolerance, that would be the intolerance of those following a particular set of religious beliefs for those following a different set of religious beliefs, (presumably xtian white supremacist/skinhead being intolerant of sikh's).  Naturally, the hypocrisy of xtians means that some will 'disown' their fellow xtian, (white supremacists make an equal "claim" to being xtian that any other xtian can make).

[Abrupt]

I see consistent requests for VALID proof or evidence, and the consistent failure to provide ANY.
 
What is it that you consider is "making sure no proof is ever presented"??  How exactly is the presentation of proof  being thwarted?
   
And nothing that could be "remotely be perceived as proof" has been "disqualified" and/or "devalued", because nothing has ever been provided that COULD be perceived as proof (even remotely).

“He that is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom.”
--anonymous

There are a lot of things that are unprovable but yet we all know them to be true.  You cannot prove your love for another (or any emotion for another -- or even your view of another).  You can only demonstrate your willingness to present the experience of these things as you sense them.  You cannot prove them though.

So, instead of providing evidence, a tacit admission of making "unprovable" religious claims is made through an analogy?  Indirectly demonstrating the existence of a human emotion, (or a "belief"), does not confer validity upon the subject of the emotion nor existence of an object of belief.  Such concepts as "love", "hate", "disgust", "religious delusions", etc. are intangibles which can/may only influence tangibles indirectly. Even then, attributing aspects of 'influence' to those intangible concepts is a more subjective and subject to skepticism.

 

No, your limitations in understanding the information presented and your obsessiveness prejudice and bias have made you overlook the importance of what I have given.  I will try a simpler approach with you since you wish to be regarded as a child.  Ponder the wisdom revealed by considering lights interactions with the eye.  How it can be invisible to the eye in one circumstance and then it is suddenly reflected or scattered and is quite visible.  One merely has to look at the night sky to appreciate this.  The realization of stars as their photons interact with the eye.  The curiosity of the blackness between them, knowing quite well there are light photons within.  The appearance of a partially illuminated crescent moon.  A laser in a vacuum room bounced off a mirror and onto a wall.  From the simple and every day to the less common and deliberate there are lessons here that are more telling than you could likely ever appreciate. 

[elandry]

MANY SKEPTICS SAY THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE RELIGIOUS ARE JUST WEAK PEOPLE  WHO NEED A CRUTCH TO LEAN ON AND THEIR RELIGION IS JUST A FARCE. DO YOU HAVE EVIDENCE IN YOUR LIFE THAT GOD IS REAL?   HAVE YOU EVER EXPERIENCED OR WITNESSED A MIRACLE OR ENCOUNTERED AN ANGEL?


My Own Evidence:

Numerous times throughout my life, I have received money from very unexpected sources as an answer to prayer.  The miraculous thing about it was that the amount of money I received would turn out to be the exact amount (to the penny) to cover the need I had prayed about.  Throughout my life, this has also happened in response to prayer for better jobs, a house, a new car, a lost loved one returning home.  Of course I cant say that every situation I have prayed about turned out like I wanted it to.  The answer to some prayers has been "no", but I do know my prayers have all been heard and are still being  heard.

My evidence: I am not religious and never have been. However, I have died twice, both times for 7 minutes and 32 seconds. There is definitely a higher being-- I saw it and spoke to it. Have seen angels too. I know literally hundreds of people like me, including atheists, who have died and come back.This is what we have in common:
All of us saw something entirely different, and for those that have gone twice or more, each time was different.
None of us could really explain fully what we saw and learned, and we all agree trying to explain it to others is like explaining a rainbow to someone who is blind from birth.
All of us was given a choice to stay there or come back here-- no strings attached.

All of us have ended up spending our time here since in the service of others, in one way or another.

And all of us are HOMESICK. We get together and comfort each other, especially on those anniversaries--none of us regrets coming back, but all of us would give ANYTHING to go back, for just a moment. Just to feel the most amazing, intimate feeling anyone can imagine-- something far beyond love, beyond anything. Every experience here is flat, in a way.  I took yesterday off and just cried 

But I wouldn't have missed it for the world 
Religion and God are two entirely separate things. A higher power had a hand in making this universe. A tiny piece of that is in every living thing. Man tries to understand God, but because we are alive and human, we can't really. So man invented religion to try to build a bridge between what we see and know to be true in the physical world, and what we cannot understand in the meta-physical world.

[jcribb16]

MANY SKEPTICS SAY THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE RELIGIOUS ARE JUST WEAK PEOPLE  WHO NEED A CRUTCH TO LEAN ON AND THEIR RELIGION IS JUST A FARCE. DO YOU HAVE EVIDENCE IN YOUR LIFE THAT GOD IS REAL?   HAVE YOU EVER EXPERIENCED OR WITNESSED A MIRACLE OR ENCOUNTERED AN ANGEL?


My Own Evidence:

Numerous times throughout my life, I have received money from very unexpected sources as an answer to prayer.  The miraculous thing about it was that the amount of money I received would turn out to be the exact amount (to the penny) to cover the need I had prayed about.  Throughout my life, this has also happened in response to prayer for better jobs, a house, a new car, a lost loved one returning home.  Of course I cant say that every situation I have prayed about turned out like I wanted it to.  The answer to some prayers has been "no", but I do know my prayers have all been heard and are still being  heard.

My evidence: I am not religious and never have been. However, I have died twice, both times for 7 minutes and 32 seconds. There is definitely a higher being-- I saw it and spoke to it. Have seen angels too. I know literally hundreds of people like me, including atheists, who have died and come back.This is what we have in common:
All of us saw something entirely different, and for those that have gone twice or more, each time was different.
None of us could really explain fully what we saw and learned, and we all agree trying to explain it to others is like explaining a rainbow to someone who is blind from birth.
All of us was given a choice to stay there or come back here-- no strings attached.

All of us have ended up spending our time here since in the service of others, in one way or another.

And all of us are HOMESICK. We get together and comfort each other, especially on those anniversaries--none of us regrets coming back, but all of us would give ANYTHING to go back, for just a moment. Just to feel the most amazing, intimate feeling anyone can imagine-- something far beyond love, beyond anything. Every experience here is flat, in a way.  I took yesterday off and just cried 

But I wouldn't have missed it for the world 
Religion and God are two entirely separate things. A higher power had a hand in making this universe. A tiny piece of that is in every living thing. Man tries to understand God, but because we are alive and human, we can't really. So man invented religion to try to build a bridge between what we see and know to be true in the physical world, and what we cannot understand in the meta-physical world.

Thank you for sharing this!  I like the way you showed the differences between religion and God. 

[jcribb16]

Sadly to say, there was another deadly shooting in America today.  This time in Wisconsin at a Sikh Temple during their Sunday services.  7 people died (one of them was the shooter)many more were injured.  Early accounts seem to indicate that it was a case of domestic terrorism motivated by religious intolerance.  How tragic and sad.

I hadn't heard that today.  That is indeed tragic and sad.  There's no reason for intolerance like that, to the point of domestic terrorism.

If it was motivated by religious intolerance, that would be the intolerance of those following a particular set of religious beliefs for those following a different set of religious beliefs, (presumably xtian white supremacist/skinhead being intolerant of sikh's).  Naturally, the hypocrisy of xtians means that some will 'disown' their fellow xtian, (white supremacists make an equal "claim" to being xtian that any other xtian can make).

Christians, following God's ways, are not agreeable to what some other "Christians" may or may not do.  Playing God by acting on domestic terrorism is outright wrong - I absolutely cannot see God "approving" say, your example of white supremacist/skinhead, for them to commit domestic terrorism.  What they are doing, instead, appears to involve their "personal" feelings on the issue.  God is the one who will judge whoever for whatever.  Like I've mentioned many times, you cannot "box" ALL Christians into ONE box - that's impossible and wrong to do that. 

[falcon9]

No, your limitations in understanding the information ...

On the contrary, my understanding is not limited or restricted in any way by blind religious faith as yours is.  Keep fabricating crap and falsely attributing it to me if wished, your own troll-chow will be fed to you to choke on, fundie.

[Abrupt]

No, your limitations in understanding the information ...

On the contrary, my understanding is not limited or restricted in any way by blind religious faith as yours is.  Keep fabricating crap and falsely attributing it to me if wished, your own troll-chow will be fed to you to choke on, fundie.

Yeah, because we know that only 'blind religious faith' allows us to see light photons reflected off of a surface.  It is amazing when I present things in a secular manner based upon science that you become even more obtuse than normal.  I have never fabricated anything and falsely attributed it to you, but I have proven where you fabricated a statement and inserted it into my quote and tried to attribute it to me.  You did this multiple times, in fact.

Are you trying to threaten me?  Come on let me really have it and keep that weak stuff for your neighborhood kids or your dog or your girlfriend or wherever you are used to using it.  We both know quite well where the results of such a confrontation would lead so don't pretend to act froggy with me.

[vp44]

Yes I do believe in God and no Im am of no religion. I beieve because we all just didnt show up on this earth so someone  or something created us.

Such 'reasoning' is faulty because it eschews actual reasoning; the conclusion does not logically follow from the false dichotomy inherent in the premise.

Really, Im assuming then you figured out how we got here.....

So what you're saying is if I don't have an answer that means your answer is correct? So if we were asked what's 2 + 2 and I said "I don't know" and you said "seven", you're correct?

Also, you haven't answered your question with god, you've simply added another question on top of your initial one. You're saying we didn't all just show up on this earth (no one said that by the way so your premise is false) but somehow you believe your god can just show up? According to your beliefs god is more complex than us yet it's impossible for us to "just show up" but somehow a more complex being can "just show up"?

Do you seriously not see the flaws in your statements?

I said I believe in God...then went on to make a statement of why I do. There is no questions there but only the ???you think was in that staement. So actuially I think you cant answer the questions of have you figured out how we got here. Just show up is not a question its a statement.  You know that saying Educated fool!!! Right now its making sense to me. lol

[falcon9]

No, your limitations in understanding the information ...

On the contrary, my understanding is not limited or restricted in any way by blind religious faith as yours is.  Keep fabricating crap and falsely attributing it to me if wished, your own troll-chow will be fed to you to choke on, fundie.

Yeah, because we know that only 'blind religious faith' allows us to see light photons reflected off of a surface. 

There you go insinuating things that never occurred again.  "Faith" has less to do with 'sight' than secular explanations for the ability of retinas to sense photonic wave/particles and transmit chemical pulses to the brain.  Whereas blind faith *sees* nothing but what it's been told to see, sans processing or evidence, (which is what makes both "faith" & blind).

I have never fabricated anything and falsely attributed it to you ...

I haven't yet decided what would be more efficient; listing your lies by thread and number or, just numbering the subtotal as you fabricate lies, (although your lying about not lying will count as a separate lie for each event).

Are you trying to threaten me?  We both know quite well where the results of such a confrontation would lead so don't pretend to act froggy with me.

How does one actually "threaten" with a metaphorical analogy online?  In previous such "confrontations", (wherein you simply post unsupported ad hominems and even lamer insults), you've declarfed victory without acheiving it.  Nothing less is expected from you,  In fact, all expectations have you have been lowered to more closely match your demonstrably low intelligence level.  The data gleaned from noting your moronic and illogical responses may be of use later in the "dumbing-down" thread.

[falcon9]

So actuially I think you cant answer the questions of have you figured out how we got here. 

You're *here* because at least one of your parents had sex, (other variations are possible, such as being the first test-tube baby decanted however, let's assume you were not decanted in a lab and that each of your parents' presence is a result of their parents having had sex).

If one extends this process of reproduction backward in time, one's gynealogical 'tree' emerges, (at least to varying extents, depending upon records and honesty).  There are no accurate records of "begettings" other than the unveriable hearsay of various 'bibles' once the accurate geneologies get murky.

[Abrupt]

No, your limitations in understanding the information ...

On the contrary, my understanding is not limited or restricted in any way by blind religious faith as yours is.  Keep fabricating crap and falsely attributing it to me if wished, your own troll-chow will be fed to you to choke on, fundie.

Yeah, because we know that only 'blind religious faith' allows us to see light photons reflected off of a surface. 

There you go insinuating things that never occurred again.  "Faith" has less to do with 'sight' than secular explanations for the ability of retinas to sense photonic wave/particles and transmit chemical pulses to the brain.  Whereas blind faith *sees* nothing but what it's been told to see, sans processing or evidence, (which is what makes both "faith" & blind).

Your dyslexia or lunacy is getting the better of you again.  You were the one that brought up faith and used in to challenge my example on the properties of light regarding its detection by the eye.  My claim was entirely secular and you could only reply in terms of religion -- all the while trying to belittle religion which is freaking hilariously indicative of your irrational prejudice and blind bias.  I don't imagine that even with me telling you this you will realize your obvious blunder as you are so controlled by your own animosity that it deprives you of the most basics of observation.     

I have never fabricated anything and falsely attributed it to you ...

I haven't yet decided what would be more efficient; listing your lies by thread and number or, just numbering the subtotal as you fabricate lies, (although your lying about not lying will count as a separate lie for each event).

They would be equivalent since there are none and thus no work for you to do.  I on the other hand am quite capable of showing your lies again as I demonstrated in the past the last time you challenged the issue.  If you care to think back you could not show one single lie of me where it was quite easy for me to prove yours -- and prove them in your own words which was all the more dramatic.  If you have found your courage again and wish to give it another go, please do -- but be warned I will again prove your lies and you will once again have nothing to show for your efforts. 

Are you trying to threaten me?  We both know quite well where the results of such a confrontation would lead so don't pretend to act froggy with me.

How does one actually "threaten" with a metaphorical analogy online?  In previous such "confrontations", (wherein you simply post unsupported ad hominems and even lamer insults), you've declarfed victory without acheiving it.  Nothing less is expected from you,  In fact, all expectations have you have been lowered to more closely match your demonstrably low intelligence level.  The data gleaned from noting your moronic and illogical responses may be of use later in the "dumbing-down" thread.

Remember, you didn't even understand the definition of an ad hominem as I had to teach you that (as well as other words) quite a few times and if you are still accusing me of them it confirms that you still never learned the lesson.  You use ad hominiem in virtually every single post you make and you don't recognize it and continue to accuse others of doing it as if that disqualifies them when it is actually you committing the fallacy.  I don't deny making insults at you, though, as to their lameness, well that is subject to interpretation.  I can tell when you feel the bite though and your attempts to mask your response gives away that which you would wish to conceal.

You see, the problem you have with me is that you can't buffalo me like you manage with some people here.  I know way too much and am a pure thinker at my core.  You don't possess the ability to look at a subject in depth nor can you quantify and qualify the variables and relevant derivations.  I have left you obvious tripwires in plain sight and you clumsily stumble right into them and have yet to recognize a single one (seemingly, that is, as you may have noticed some but you never gave indication and your reactions were as would be predicted).  Your responses and posts are directed by your strong emotional hate for Christianity (in particular) and my posts and responses are of the rational and resolute.  That you recognize me as your better makes it all the more annoying to you and makes your posts to me all the more desperate and maniacal.  (Note:  Falconer02 I voiced my last paragraph in my head in the voice of Doctor Orpheus (if you know who that is) as I tried The Monarch and it didn't sound right).