Re logical existence of God

[SherylsShado]

Quote from falcon9

Assuming that there is a "satan", (and I'm not), isn't the xtian g-d attributed with 'creating' that "archangel" adversary and therefore, for creating "evil", (which cannot be logically attributed to a secondary cause - "satan")?  It follows that the 'creator' of evil is evil/malevolent 'itself'.

God is attributed to creating the angels including satan.   satan wasn't evil in his "original" state, he was a perfect creation.  satan became evil, through pride and vanity when he decided that he wanted to be God. (It was his own choice.)

 Due to His all-knowing nature, God obviously knew that Lucifer would yield to his pride and vanity, and become Satan, the Adversary of God, or the Devil. So again, God created someone who became evil by their own choice. However, because God knew that this was going to happen, and even allowed it to happen, we can say that He in fact created evil (this would be in agreement with the Bible---"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7, KJV).

As ironic as it may seem, while Satan opposes God, at the same time, he works for Him, to accomplish His Divine Purposes. (Ex #1: If satan hadn't inspired the scribes, the pharisees and even Judas to do what they did...Jesus may have never died on the cross for our sins leaving all lost and unsaved.  Ex#2: It is through the trials, temptations and afflictions that Satan throws our way, that we become stronger, and better, Christians.)

Anyway...think of all your friends...
would you rather they be your friends because they chose to, or would you prefer people to be your friends because they have no choice? 
 

 

[SherylsShado]

from falcon9

That's a refreshing response, given that you're xtian.  Likely some xtians will dissent with your view, (the proselytizing ones, probably).
While it's possible to simply ignore whichever threads one wishes to, (without an 'ignore button for subject matter'), many of those posting various religious proselytizing remarks, (not just in the 'verses' threads but, spamming randomly across several forums), don't want to use the ignore function, (also, there's at least one xtian who uses the ignore function to 'not-ignore' and being disingenuous).  Neither do some of those posting opposing viewpoints to such proselytizing.  It remains possible however, for anyone to ignore any post in any forum and their choice to do so or not.

Yes, I know it remains possible for anyone to ignore any post in any forum and their choice to do so or not.  I should have clarified on that, I do/did realize that.  However, having to "ignore" every other post (whether by using the "ignore" button or just by simpy "ignoring") is about as much fun as reading a newspaper with numerous articles that have been scissored out.    ).  I don't have any other answers for the problem though, everyone is entitled to their opinion. 
(I wish I could hit an "ignore" button for that "big-mouthed, walking mess" that contributed to my ulcer...as do many others here as well, I'm sure!  There's no way out at the moment (and yes, totally relying on prayer to solve things), the only thing anyone can do is "deal with it".   

So...I'll try...
 

[SherylsShado]

Quote from Falconer02

According to this book, your god kills loads of people though. It's not just the antagonist he created-- these stories specifically state that this god is or is commanding the death of people. If you think this "nature" is not malevolent, then there's an obvious moral problem with your argument here.

   
Where in the Bible does God specifically command the death of those obeying Him?

Perhaps you should look at the unfortunate individuals who are Christians that are suffering and die in agony from disease and pain every day (at varying ages) rather than the agnostic-atheist who's sitting infront of a nice PC listening to comfortable music with very few health issues. If anything, educated people are the reason why I'm breathing right now

Actually, I have pondered that before.  It's not really so much a surprise at how many Christians suffer while the non-believers seem to prosper.  Perhaps that is further evidence of how satan tricks many into choosing his path with temporary "rewards".  Logically seems that for those who do not know God...this earth will be the only heaven they will ever know -while- for those that know God, this earth will be the only hell they will ever know.
As great as educated people are, they can only keep a person breathing until God determine's when one takes their last breath.  Where is the "logic" for putting so much "faith" into the "temporary"?   

[Abrupt]

Due to His all-knowing nature, God obviously knew that Lucifer would yield to his pride and vanity, and become Satan, the Adversary of God, or the Devil. So again, God created someone who became evil by their own choice. However, because God knew that this was going to happen, and even allowed it to happen, we can say that He in fact created evil (this would be in agreement with the Bible---"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7, KJV).

I would be in disagreement with you here on the usage of the word evil (as in moral evil) as translated in the King James Version.  The Hebrew word translated was 'rah' which can mean many things, and in KJV it is translated into 15 or more different meanings (including evil, but also calamity, adversity, hurt, etc).  In this case I think the KJV is a poorer translation and would suggest that a more accurate translation for Isaiah 45:7 is "The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these".  Of course such isn't for me to decide which is correct only to offer variations based on understanding of the context (human comfort and environmental conditions).  Also light contrasted with darkness makes sense, but peace contrasted with evil???

One must realize that the KJV was performed in the 1600's, and even from the span of then to now words may be viewed differently.  Translations are always a tricky thing as I learned recently when trying to translate modern Russian into modern English I came up with the exact opposite meaning of what was intended.  Someone familiar with the language and the context could have come up with the correct translation I am sure, but even if they were familiar with the language and not the context I think they could have possibly come up with the same incorrect conclusion I did.

[Falconer02]

Where in the Bible does God specifically command the death of those obeying Him?

When did I say "obeying him"? You're obviously dodging the question now. But to answer your question, he commands Abraham to sacrifice his son and then pulls out. You seem to not want to discuss the other numerous times he kills or commands people to be killed. You do realize he commits genocide more than once, correct? As long as it's not the "master race", I suppose it's okay for Hit...err...god to kill anyone in anyway he wants, right? What a kind and loving deity.

Actually, I have pondered that before.  It's not really so much a surprise at how many Christians suffer while the non-believers seem to prosper.  Perhaps that is further evidence of how satan tricks many into choosing his path with temporary "rewards".  Logically seems that for those who do not know God...this earth will be the only heaven they will ever know -while- for those that know God, this earth will be the only hell they will ever know.
As great as educated people are, they can only keep a person breathing until God determine's when one takes their last breath.  Where is the "logic" for putting so much "faith" into the "temporary"?    

Because you have zero proof beyond what you dub the temporary. You have no reason to put the word "logic" in your post unless your beliefs can withstand any basic skepticism. It is unfortunate that you cannot demonstrate this. Wouldn't it seem more legitimate for someone who had a poor life to imagine another fantasy life after this one whereas a person who had a good life to not do this?

[SherylsShado]

Where in the Bible does God specifically command the death of those obeying Him?

When did I say "obeying him"? You're obviously dodging the question now. But to answer your question, he commands Abraham to sacrifice his son and then pulls out. You seem to not want to discuss the other numerous times he kills or commands people to be killed. You do realize he commits genocide more than once, correct? As long as it's not the "master race", I suppose it's okay for Hit...err...god to kill anyone in anyway he wants, right? What a kind and loving deity.

I wasn't "dodging the question".  God created His creation with a plan, a purpose in mind.   A person can choose obedience to Him or they can choose to disobey and "run with the devil/and the other fallen angels".   The time will come when that person no longer serves His purpose, that person isn't fitting into His plan.  God will deal with them.  To assume that hell is ok for satan but that God should not punish disobedient humans (for doing what satan was pushed out of heaven for and will be punished for) makes for an odd argument.

He did tell Abraham to sacrifice his son, to test Abraham's faith.  http://www.gotquestions.org/Abraham-Isaac.html explains that better than I can.

Genesis states after the fall that everyone is going to die.  Does it really matter how?  What difference does it make if some animals kill some, stupidity kills some, some kill each other, pollution/poverty/sickness kills some, God smites some disobedient that He just no longer has a purpose for, etc.?  Everything is going to die...it's just a question of when.  It wasn't God's original plan for mankind to die, Eve and Adam disobeyed God and with that came the consequences. 

The "Old Testament" portrays a "harsh" God when He was dealing with the disobedient.  The New Testament focuses more on Jesus.  However, God doesn't' "change".  What angered Him in the Old Testament STILL angers Him today.  He will someday be dealing with every single disobedient soul for the LAST time.   I think He's given everyone enough time, enough warnings, enough chance after chance...that He could be considered a VERY kind and loving deity.

[JediJohnnie]

Still going over Abraham & Isaac?What's so hard to understand?It was a prophecy directly relating to God having to sacrifice His Son.(Something that would be fulfilled centures later) Falconer seems disappointed that God didn't make Abe go through with it.The point was still made.God had no intention of having Isaac killed,so it's not a case of God changing His mind.

[Falconer02]

I wasn't "dodging the question".  God created His creation with a plan, a purpose in mind.   A person can choose obedience to Him or they can choose to disobey and "run with the devil/and the other fallen angels".   The time will come when that person no longer serves His purpose, that person isn't fitting into His plan.  God will deal with them.  To assume that hell is ok for satan but that God should not punish disobedient humans (for doing what satan was pushed out of heaven for and will be punished for) makes for an odd argument.

So "Obey or suffer eternally". Explain to me how this is not like a robber putting a gun to your head and saying "Give me your belongings or I'll shoot you.". How is this god granting free will again???

He did tell Abraham to sacrifice his son, to test Abraham's faith.

You asked for an example where he commands those who obey him to kill and I gave you one. That notion ended there. However you still have not addressed the genocidal actions.

Genesis states after the fall that everyone is going to die.  Does it really matter how?  What difference does it make if some animals kill some, stupidity kills some, some kill each other, pollution/poverty/sickness kills some, God smites some disobedient that He just no longer has a purpose for, etc.?  Everything is going to die...it's just a question of when.  It wasn't God's original plan for mankind to die, Eve and Adam disobeyed God and with that came the consequences.  

It does matter how! How can it not matter when a god is going postal and murdering everyone!? Woman and children (and babies) too! There's a major difference with 1 guy killing another and a GOD using his powers to kill EVERYONE ON THE EARTH. I'm honestly surprised you could give such a broad and ignorant answer to cover up this god's horrifying behavior.

The "Old Testament" portrays a "harsh" God when He was dealing with the disobedient.  The New Testament focuses more on Jesus.  However, God doesn't' "change".  What angered Him in the Old Testament STILL angers Him today.  He will someday be dealing with every single disobedient soul for the LAST time.   I think He's given everyone enough time, enough warnings, enough chance after chance...that He could be considered a VERY kind and loving deity.

I cannot understand how you can say "I think He's given everyone enough time, enough warnings, enough chance after chance...that He could be considered a VERY kind and loving deity" when taking into account natural disasters, famine, and plagues. Seriously-- you really need to broaden your horizons in this argument and take into consideration the vast amount of aspects you are either ignoring or are naive to. No offense thrown at your personal stature here-- just something I've noticed in the debate thus far.

It was a prophecy directly relating to God having to sacrifice His Son.(Something that would be fulfilled centures later) Falconer seems disappointed that God didn't make Abe go through with it.The point was still made.God had no intention of having Isaac killed,so it's not a case of God changing His mind.

Sheryl asked for an example of this god commanding an obedient to kill and I gave her one. That's the only reason I brought it up. I'm not sure why you invented and pinned your immoral conclusion on me. I'm not sure what's going on in that head of yours, but please keep your immoral thoughts to yourself and let the debaters debate.

[falcon9]

God is attributed to creating the angels including satan.   satan wasn't evil in his "original" state, he was a perfect creation.  satan became evil, through pride and vanity when he decided that he wanted to be God. (It was his own choice.)

If the "creation" was "perfect", 'Lucifer' could not have become 'Satan' unless that was inherent in 'his' creation.  Nevertheless, these are 'theo-illogical', (internally-inconsistant), premises for a superstitious religious belief which fail to support that belief, (because it ultimately rests upon empty faith/sans evidence - the circular belief does not constitute evidence).

Due to His all-knowing nature, God obviously knew that Lucifer would yield to his pride and vanity, and become Satan, the Adversary of God, or the Devil. So again, God created someone who became evil by their own choice.

In that case, any "blame" for "evil" rests with that which 'created' it; the xtian g-d, according to the xtian belief system.  Therefore, the xtian g-d is not only responsible for any "evil" but, is "evil" itself.

Anyway...think of all your friends...
would you rather they be your friends because they chose to, or would you prefer people to be your friends because they have no choice? 

Isn't that precisely what 'giving someone a "choice" which is not a choice', (the threats of punishment if one 'chooses' anything other than submission to a superstitious belief and dubious 'g-d')?  This is like asking your friends if they'd "choose" to be your friend or, suffer "eternal damnation"?  That's an attempt at coercing the 'choice' via threatening.  What kind of insecure meglomaniac has to threaten 'worshippers'?
 

[duroz]

Isn't that precisely what 'giving someone a "choice" which is not a choice', (the threats of punishment if one 'chooses' anything other than submission to a superstitious belief and dubious 'g-d')?  This is like asking your friends if they'd "choose" to be your friend or, suffer "eternal damnation"?  That's an attempt at coercing the 'choice' via threatening.  What kind of insecure meglomaniac has to threaten 'worshippers'?

   >>a-HA! THERE you are.<<

It’s an incredible con job when you think about it, to believe something now in exchange for something after death. Even corporations with their reward systems don’t try to make it posthumous. — Gloria Steinem
                                 

[Abrupt]

God is attributed to creating the angels including satan.   satan wasn't evil in his "original" state, he was a perfect creation.  satan became evil, through pride and vanity when he decided that he wanted to be God. (It was his own choice.)

If the "creation" was "perfect", 'Lucifer' could not have become 'Satan' unless that was inherent in 'his' creation.  Nevertheless, these are 'theo-illogical', (internally-inconsistant), premises for a superstitious religious belief which fail to support that belief, (because it ultimately rests upon empty faith/sans evidence - the circular belief does not constitute evidence).

This is where free will comes into play.  Unless you ascribe to the beliefs of a determinist I find you must believe in free will, otherwise we are all doing exactly what we all would do and we are to have no credit or blame or consideration for any actions we take.  Surely you don't think that people are doing exactly the ONLY thing they could ever do, do you?

Due to His all-knowing nature, God obviously knew that Lucifer would yield to his pride and vanity, and become Satan, the Adversary of God, or the Devil. So again, God created someone who became evil by their own choice.

In that case, any "blame" for "evil" rests with that which 'created' it; the xtian g-d, according to the xtian belief system.  Therefore, the xtian g-d is not only responsible for any "evil" but, is "evil" itself.

Again, this falls under free will and also how the finite is viewed from the infinite. 

All our universe would appear to occur instantaneously from an infinite view.  This is hinted at in physics with concepts of space-time where "time is distance and distance is time".  Also some discussions of multidimensional physics theories delve into this topic.  You cannot apply the thinking of a linear and sequential period when you think of 'time' in this manner.  The infinite would exists in all points of this 'time' at the same instance and across the entire reach of it (i.e. the infinite would exist simultaneously in both the end and beginning of this 'time' and all points in between).  You need to abandon the illusion of what time is -- and it is an illusion and one that we fall victim to due to our faith in our physical senses.  In case you wonder what scripture or religious source I gathered this information I will direct you to read up on the teachings of Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawkings and numerous other physicists. 

Anyway...think of all your friends...
would you rather they be your friends because they chose to, or would you prefer people to be your friends because they have no choice? 

Isn't that precisely what 'giving someone a "choice" which is not a choice', (the threats of punishment if one 'chooses' anything other than submission to a superstitious belief and dubious 'g-d')?  This is like asking your friends if they'd "choose" to be your friend or, suffer "eternal damnation"?  That's an attempt at coercing the 'choice' via threatening.  What kind of insecure meglomaniac has to threaten 'worshippers'?

Here again I would say that some things are not translated as well from the hebrew/greek in some instances and these lead to a misunderstanding in this regard.  This "eternal damnation" when viewed as being a "finite existence" makes more sense (and it is perfectly appropriate when considering an infinite view of the finite).  When the possibility of an infinite existence for obedience then is viewed as the benevolent reward the scene changes dramatically.  I am not here to tell someone how to properly research transcribed text though -- except to the point I hinted at earlier with the use of lexicons and concordances as these would be the minimum basics necessary for at least the appearance of diligence. 

[SherylsShado]

@Falconer02,

So "Obey or suffer eternally". Explain to me how this is not like a robber putting a gun to your head and saying "Give me your belongings or I'll shoot you.". How is this god granting free will again???

ok, my explanation would differ from yours in that I see it more like the top boss that hires someone to do a specific job.   (God is top boss, He created everyone with a plan, for a purpose in mind.)  The new hire decides rather than do the job that they were hired for, they would rather do things "their way".  The boss gives them multiple written warnings (compare to Biblical warnings).  More time goes by and the new hire gets to feeling really secure doing their own thing.  It's only a matter of time before that new hire gets "terminated" (or "fired" in Biblical terms) as the boss no longer has any use for them.
     ***I think somewhere the definition of "free will" has gotten misunderstood.  Free will isn't that one can do whatever they want and have a free pass to go wherever they want in the next life.  Free will simply means one is free to obey God, or don't.  He's not going to force anyone to obey Him.  However, if one chooses not to obey God, then the time will come when He has no use for them.  He's the Creator, seems He can "destroy" what doesn't obey Him any way He chooses.  (Ever hear an angry mama tell her kid "I brought you into this world and I can take you out"? )

You asked for an example where he commands those who obey him to kill and I gave you one. That notion ended there. However you still have not addressed the genocidal actions.

Ok, which Bible verses are you referring to for the "genocidal actions"??  

It does matter how! How can it not matter when a god is going postal and murdering everyone!? Woman and children (and babies) too! There's a major difference with 1 guy killing another and a GOD using his powers to kill EVERYONE ON THE EARTH. I'm honestly surprised you could give such a broad and ignorant answer to cover up this god's horrifying behavior.

But God ISN'T going postal and murdering everyone.  People go postal and murder people, do you get as "fired up" over those?  When did God use His powers to kill "EVERYONE ON THE EARTH"??  I'm not covering up this "god's horrifying behavior", I'm just not aware of any so please list verses for reference purposes.  Thanks.

I cannot understand how you can say "I think He's given everyone enough time, enough warnings, enough chance after chance...that He could be considered a VERY kind and loving deity" when taking into account natural disasters, famine, and plagues. Seriously-- you really need to broaden your horizons in this argument and take into consideration the vast amount of aspects you are either ignoring or are naive to. No offense thrown at your personal stature here-- just something I've noticed in the debate thus far.

Why/how does God get the "credit/blame" for ALL natural disasters, famine, and plagues?

**End Note/ personal request:  It's just a personal request, you don't HAVE to comply as you have "free will". (lol)  When re-quoting my posts, please specify that they are my quotes or keep them separate from other peoples quotes,  so as to avoid "confusion".  I don't wish for someone to mistakenly think I "said" something when I didn't.  Thanks bunches in advance.    
 

[SherylsShado]

If the "creation" was "perfect", 'Lucifer' could not have become 'Satan' unless that was inherent in 'his' creation.  Nevertheless, these are 'theo-illogical', (internally-inconsistant), premises for a superstitious religious belief which fail to support that belief, (because it ultimately rests upon empty faith/sans evidence - the circular belief does not constitute evidence).

I wish I had known you were going to "bring that up", I had seen that explained really well on a site recently and I don't remember where.  I'll try to find it but I won't be able to for a couple of days because I'm getting ready to log off soon and have to work both jobs tomorrow...but then I'll be back.  (Not a "threat", just letting you know I didn't "disappear" or "run from topic".  )

In that case, any "blame" for "evil" rests with that which 'created' it; the xtian g-d, according to the xtian belief system.  Therefore, the xtian g-d is not only responsible for any "evil" but, is "evil" itself.

This thought too goes with the above info that I will be trying to "dig up".

Anyway...think of all your friends...
would you rather they be your friends because they chose to, or would you prefer people to be your friends because they have no choice? 

Isn't that precisely what 'giving someone a "choice" which is not a choice', (the threats of punishment if one 'chooses' anything other than submission to a superstitious belief and dubious 'g-d')?  This is like asking your friends if they'd "choose" to be your friend or, suffer "eternal damnation"?  That's an attempt at coercing the 'choice' via threatening.  What kind of insecure meglomaniac has to threaten 'worshippers'?
 

Thing is, we didn't "create" our friends with the purpose of "friendship" in mind.  If we had created them...with the ONLY purpose of friendship in mind, and they decided they hated our gutts...then what?  Some of them would be picking fights with those that decided to be friends, they'd be stealing from them, murdering them and etc. and then what?  What would you do if you had created a group of people to only be your friends, and then you had no purpose for their existance because they hated you?

[Falconer02]

ok, my explanation would differ from yours in that I see it more like the top boss that hires someone to do a specific job.   (God is top boss, He created everyone with a plan, for a purpose in mind.)  The new hire decides rather than do the job that they were hired for, they would rather do things "their way".  The boss gives them multiple written warnings (compare to Biblical warnings).  More time goes by and the new hire gets to feeling really secure doing their own thing.  It's only a matter of time before that new hire gets "terminated" (or "fired"
 in Biblical terms) as the boss no longer has any use for them.

Here's the glaring problem with your example-- nobody asked to be hired by this boss. This is forced labor with harsher consequences than simply getting fired. "Work for me or be tortured." It's a gulag!

Free will simply means one is free to obey God, or don't.

Well then that goes against the proper/common usage of the term, and this proves that it's nothing more than a coercion tactic-- the sign of an evil and unfair deity.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kxa6qy5lPo1qax8e0o1_400.jpg

How is this not evil?

(Ever hear an angry mama tell her kid "I brought you into this world and I can take you out"? )

NUMEROUS times. Haha! Though I'm certain if my mother did kill me, she'd be in prison for immoral and horrific behavior...

Ok, which Bible verses are you referring to for the "genocidal actions"??

Well do I need to quote entire chapters? Genesis 6-8 = the flood wipes out everyone. This god caused it and thus that's genocide. You can try the "they were evil" card, but it's still genocide. Exodus 11-12 = Passover story. Rather than just popping in and scaring the Pharoah (ONE GUY) into letting them all go, he sets off plagues and kills various people including kids. As far as a verse goes-

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy. Deuteronomy 7:1-2

But God ISN'T going postal and murdering everyone.  People go postal and murder people, do you get as "fired up" over those?  When did God use His powers to kill "EVERYONE ON THE EARTH"??  I'm not covering up this "god's horrifying behavior", I'm just not aware of any so please list verses for reference purposes.  Thanks.

Of course I get mad when people get killed. Especially when it's close to home. An acquantence I knew from HS just got killed in that movie-theater shooting! I put myself in that situation and I get really angry. But the references are above for what you're asking for.

Why/how does God get the "credit/blame" for ALL natural disasters, famine, and plagues?

Because he created this faulty planet according to the bible. I'm fairly certain we didn't cause earthquakes or hurricanes throughout history. Granted desertification can be caused by over-use of land, the vast majority of it is natural. Plagues can be caused by various natural means and usually hit populations unexpectantly. A super-being with the ability to correct these flaws would be ideal but alas history proves that they've always existed.

[falcon9]

I wish I had known you were going to "bring that up", I had seen that explained really well on a site recently and I don't remember where.  I'll try to find it but I won't be able to for a couple of days because I'm getting ready to log off soon and have to work both jobs tomorrow...but then I'll be back.  (Not a "threat", just letting you know I didn't "disappear" or "run from topic".  )

You can save yourself the time and effort of finding that circular argument; these are 'angels-dancing-on-pinheads' types of theological nonsense for me and are tangential to the topic of the thread.  That being; there is no logical support for the "existence of g-d".

Anyway...think of all your friends...
would you rather they be your friends because they chose to, or would you prefer people to be your friends because they have no choice? 

Isn't that precisely what 'giving someone a "choice" which is not a choice', (the threats of punishment if one 'chooses' anything other than submission to a superstitious belief and dubious 'g-d')?  This is like asking your friends if they'd "choose" to be your friend or, suffer "eternal damnation"?  That's an attempt at coercing the 'choice' via threatening.  What kind of insecure meglomaniac has to threaten 'worshippers'?
 

Thing is, we didn't "create" our friends with the purpose of "friendship" in mind.  If we had created them...

The presumption is an invalid premise; no one creates their friends, they create friendships with others.  The assumption that a "g-d" created people to be friends with has no evidentiary basis, (and is more than a little pathetically petulant to boot).  Since the initial premise, (that 'g-d' created anything), is unsubstantiated, all that follows from that empty premise is rejected as specious.