Dumbing-down or wising-up?

[Barbaralynne]

 We are all entitled to our opinions, and how would we learn anything if we weren't exposed to other people and views. Beyond that, a person with a healthy mind can laugh at himself.

I don't often agree with what certain people say on hear, but I read their posts, Because I want to know other views. I have always found them intelligently put, even if I don't see things the same. And yes,I say a little prayer.

[walksalone11]

It would depend on what story you are referencing. There are several of our own and many more falsely attributed to us. I generally don't speak much publicly on these types of things and I could get into the why's although it would be a bit of a lengthy explanation, however, the story I am speaking of tells of ancients coming coming here from "the Sky Vault" which means basically from some where in space.

That might be similar to some Anasazi creation stories which I'm aware of, or not.  It's understandable that you'd prefer not to discuss them publically, (although you did bring it up initially *chuckle*).  I was mainly curious from a 'comparative myth' perspective, (in that these are not considered to be 'myth' by those who believe in them).  It's difficult to discuss specifics when only generalities are available however, I'm going to defer this preference to you since your creation story isn't as widely-known as some others, (out of a respect for privacy).

Thank you.

Yes I did vaguely refer to it lol.

As you are well aware, many people are not as diligent as yourself in striving to gather true facts.
Many times less scrupulous people will get on some ego trip after hearing some tid bits of something and then make up huge elaborate stories to add to them, thinking it makes them look intelligent.

This has the result of much mis-information.

There are many many people with legit Native ancestry who were never around the culture but are trying to find their way back. They hear these bogus stories and believe them, then retell them. Now you have authentic NDNs spreading these stories and repping them as legit.

Many people say that the way to preserving our culture is to share it. Many of us have a different stance on that. I am not against sharing, just that I am very careful in where and to whom I do speak on these things with, as my way of attempting protect them.

In my view, when/if the authentic culture is lost, then assimilation will be complete, resulting in there being no more NDNs ever....we will all then simply be Americans.

I regret to say I do not know much about my Choctaw Indian family. I do know they are responsible for the use of filé powder (sassafras) in gumbo. I think I was more influenced by the Cajun-French culture around me growing up then by my actual family and it shows in my cooking. I do use filé powder instead of okra in my gumbo though !

sassafrass or as we know it, kastaste or kanasdatsi, was the first wild plant that I was taught of, by my Mother. It was traditionally used for treating bronchitis, in a poultice for sore eyes, in drinks along with pine bark for endurance etc.
My family used it as a spring tonic. I just love the taste of the tea and try to keep a supply on hand. Back east I would harvest it myself but since moving west I am forced to order it from a friend who is an herb dealer. I generally get around 2 or 3 pounds at a time. I drink it often as well as gift it to others.

If I may ask, are your Relatives of the Oklahoma Choctaw, or the Mississippi band? I may know some of them or atleast be able to put you in touch with someone from your Nation, if you would like.

I have never had it as a tea. I think I would like that ! Mississippi. I grew up on the coast. My uncle has all the information for them but I moved to Atlanta and haven't seen him in a long while.  You are an awesome person !

If your Uncle has all the information, he would probably be the person to talk to. Why not get in touch?
I dated a woman once who was from the Mississippi band. She lives in San Diego now...didn't work out

Once you get in touch with your tribe, see if you can find the Chief that made the opening pitch in a Braves game a few years back, and smack tha *bleep* out of him for me, lol J/K....that was kinna rude tho. I forget now what his name was.

[falcon9]

There are certain tribal members, of my Nation, that are tasked with learning, memorizing and telling of stories that have been passed down for many generations. Stories often include names of specific Ancestors as well as place settings that are local and usually very familiar. This gives the effect of being much more familiar on a personal level,to said Ancestor then would happen if a more vague reference was mentioned. This is one of the reasons being relocated is such a tragic event. Along with the belief that a persons spirit can not rest unless being buried in the soil made up by the remains of the Ancestors.

Story keepers are allowed license to add to the stories so in answer to your question, yes it would be possible that some bits have been lost along the way, however, in most instances, it isn't extreamly likely. Reason being is that when one is learning the stories they are not allowed to tell them until they have memorized them to the satisfaction of their mentor. Not to say that it never happens.

Understood.  My previous questions, (as exemplified by the "telephone game" example), regarded such mundanely-common things as memory-loss and poor hearing/mis-hearing stories told.  Even when repeated back to the one passing an oral tradition along, it does happen that the new story teller grows old and some details will slip/be altered or omitted.  The point of all this being that stories can and do change, (whether or not the core essence of the stories remains the same or, has also subtlely altered in the course of the process is the crux of my inquiry).

Getting back to our connection with our environment, we hold the belief that every thing is cyclical. Meaning enter connected and moving in a never ending cycle. We are conceived as the result of biological substances of our parents. It is what we are made of, therefore, we are in reality a part of our parents and in turn all of their forbears. We get our sustenance from products of the soil, which is made up of, and nourished by, the remains of our Ancestors. Thereby re-enforcing the connection in that way. It takes the sun, soil and water to nourish plants, which in turn nourish us as well as the fourlegged and other of our Relatives, which we also partake of. When we harvest any food item we are taught to not only always give thanks but also to give something in return, which may be some sacred offering and/or returning any by products which we don't consume in some way, back to the soil. So we see that all of these things are connected and very necessary to each of our survival. We believe that every organism has some important function so is for that reason sacred and not to be disrespected or attempts made to harm them. That said, I will mash every fly I can in my home lol.

Anyway, this is straying a bit far from your question so I will stop here. Perhaps someone, will get a little something from my musing.....

I appreciate the time you've taken to expound a bit upon your culture.  While we might go into the general subject of "animism" as it relates to such cultures, (not just yours, specifically), I don't regard this portion of the discussion thread as tangential since it falls under the "wising-up" context of the thread.

[walksalone11]

I recall an instance when a person from Canada opined, after hearing some of my beliefs, that I was an animist. I have never researched what exactly that is so really couldn't say.

As far as stories "evolving" I would assume some probably have, although without having some original text or equivalent, to compare modern versions too, I guess it would be speculation, however probable, to say.

[falcon9]

I recall an instance when a person from Canada opined, after hearing some of my beliefs, that I was an animist. I have never researched what exactly that is so really couldn't say.

"Animism, (from Latin anima "soul, life"), refers to the belief that non-human entities are spiritual beings, or at least embody some kind of life-principle. Animism encompasses the beliefs that there is no separation between the spiritual and physical (or material) world, and souls or spirits exist, not only in humans, but also in all other animals, plants, rocks, geographic features such as mountains or rivers, or other entities of the natural environment. Animism may further attribute souls to abstract concepts such as words, true names, or metaphors in mythology."
-- from Wikipedia

My perspective on animism is similar however, extends into the underlying concepts of "magic", (e.g., ancient cultures), and as being the basis of formal religions.

As far as stories "evolving" I would assume some probably have, although without having some original text or equivalent, to compare modern versions too, I guess it would be speculation, however probable, to say.

It is specualtion that such stories evolve, (although there is considerable evidence extant that many, many _other_ stories/old tales have evolved), but then it is also a speculation that they haven't.  As you indicated, there would have to be comparative evidence available, (beyond two generations of oral traditions and interpreting cave drawings through current perspectives).

[walksalone11]

I recall an instance when a person from Canada opined, after hearing some of my beliefs, that I was an animist. I have never researched what exactly that is so really couldn't say.

"Animism, (from Latin anima "soul, life"), refers to the belief that non-human entities are spiritual beings, or at least embody some kind of life-principle. Animism encompasses the beliefs that there is no separation between the spiritual and physical (or material) world, and souls or spirits exist, not only in humans, but also in all other animals, plants, rocks, geographic features such as mountains or rivers, or other entities of the natural environment. Animism may further attribute souls to abstract concepts such as words, true names, or metaphors in mythology."
-- from Wikipedia

My perspective on animism is similar however, extends into the underlying concepts of "magic", (e.g., ancient cultures), and as being the basis of formal religions.

As far as stories "evolving" I would assume some probably have, although without having some original text or equivalent, to compare modern versions too, I guess it would be speculation, however probable, to say.

It is specualtion that such stories evolve, (although there is considerable evidence extant that many, many _other_ stories/old tales have evolved), but then it is also a speculation that they haven't.  As you indicated, there would have to be comparative evidence available, (beyond two generations of oral traditions and interpreting cave drawings through current perspectives).

Ummm, most of that definition sounds a bit familiar however the "no separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds I would part from.

[falcon9]

"Animism, (from Latin anima "soul, life"), refers to the belief that non-human entities are spiritual beings, or at least embody some kind of life-principle. Animism encompasses the beliefs that there is no separation between the spiritual and physical (or material) world, and souls or spirits exist, not only in humans, but also in all other animals, plants, rocks, geographic features such as mountains or rivers, or other entities of the natural environment. Animism may further attribute souls to abstract concepts such as words, true names, or metaphors in mythology."
-- from Wikipedia

My perspective on animism is similar however, extends into the underlying concepts of "magic", (e.g., ancient cultures), and as being the basis of formal religions.

Ummm, most of that definition sounds a bit familiar however the "no separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds I would part from.

As I said, one of my interests in that concept regards how animism relates to early conceptions of "magic" and religion.  For instance, in order for such ancient concepts of "magic" to 'work', practitioners appeared to require some unseen connections between the "spiritual" and physical worlds, (as did/does most religious concepts).  I considered this requirement to consist of a 'separate, yet connected' understanding, (applying to both magic & religion).  Either there is no such connection or, there is.  If there isn't, that would seem to preclude the efficacy of "magic" and the basis of many religions.  If there is such a connection, it is difficult to demonstrate without demonstrating 'animistic magical' results, (or, the religionist parallel of 'prayer' results).

[duroz]

Along the lines of _not_ dumbing-down my replies, the one I made to you, ('There is nothing to fear, not even fear itself, (phobophobia).  ' ), may have been too subtle to indicate that I was aware that you were joking.  Beyond that, I'd estimated that the ones you may have thought were referring to your joke had actually meant others.  Of course, that estimation may have been off the mark.  Innocent until demonstrated to be guilty? If it was/wasn't/seems like fun, the offending parties can be tased at an unknown future point.  That means you too, (unless you're settled down by now ... or, if I determine that it'd be fun to tase ya either way ... )

After my "rant", I want to say that I really enjoyed reading your conversation here, walksalone11 and falcon9, it was both interesting and informative (or maybe enlightening would be a better word).  

The tangential conversation caught my interest too, even if things were left vague.  That's how it goes sometimes, now how do you really feel concerning either 'dumbing-down' or, 'wising-up'?

I just had time to briefly rush through latest posts here, didn't get to really read much of them, so I want to be sure to get back on here later this evening. I am looking forward to reading more interesting posts from walksalone11 and bad dog.
Oh OOOPS I mean falcon9....gosh what was I thinking? (   )

Also comments from the quoted falcon9 post I feel the need to say SOMETHING about .....and also respond to the dumb down wise up question.   

[falcon9]

After my "rant", I want to say that I really enjoyed reading your conversation here, walksalone11 and falcon9, it was both interesting and informative (or maybe enlightening would be a better word).  

The tangential conversation caught my interest too, even if things were left vague.  That's how it goes sometimes, now how do you really feel concerning either 'dumbing-down' or, 'wising-up'?

I just had time to briefly rush through latest posts here, didn't get to really read much of them, so I want to be sure to get back on here later this evening. I am looking forward to reading more interesting posts from walksalone11 and bad dog.
Oh OOOPS I mean falcon9....gosh what was I thinking? (   )

Also comments from the quoted falcon9 post I feel the need to say SOMETHING about .....and also respond to the dumb down wise up question.   

Okay, take your time as always.  Also, if you keep trying to designate me as "bad dog", I may have to start referring to you as 'good pussycat', (or something more insidious along those lines), you know.  As an apparent aside, we had a cat once who we'd named "bad dog" because she was such a good cat that she'd make a lousy dog.

[walksalone11]

Yeah thing about that Walks fella is that he is notorious for disappearing without warning for long stretches of time......

[falcon9]

Yeah thing about that Walks fella is that he is notorious for disappearing without warning for long stretches of time......

My current hypothesis regarding that is that "walksalone" may be off walking ... alone.  I could be in error; he might be walking with someone or, driving or nearly anything else but posting to an FC forum.

[walksalone11]

Yeah thing about that Walks fella is that he is notorious for disappearing without warning for long stretches of time......

My current hypothesis regarding that is that "walksalone" may be off walking ... alone.  I could be in error; he might be walking with someone or, driving or nearly anything else but posting to an FC forum.

Or perhaps, he walks alone to the truck, drives into town to pick "someone" up, drives back, walks with said "someone" into the abode and then doing nearly any thing else but posting to a FC forum 

or.....perhaps not 

[falcon9]

Yeah thing about that Walks fella is that he is notorious for disappearing without warning for long stretches of time......

My current hypothesis regarding that is that "walksalone" may be off walking ... alone.  I could be in error; he might be walking with someone or, driving or nearly anything else but posting to an FC forum.

Or perhaps, he walks alone to the truck, drives into town to pick "someone" up, drives back, walks with said "someone" into the abode and then doing nearly any thing else but posting to a FC forum 

or.....perhaps not 

Either you haven't left yet or, she's waiting for you waiting on her.  Other possibilities spring to mind as well ... you could've said that you're going elk-hunting or even say nothing, (and leave mysteriously, only to return later, just as mysteriously).

[walksalone11]

Yeah thing about that Walks fella is that he is notorious for disappearing without warning for long stretches of time......

My current hypothesis regarding that is that "walksalone" may be off walking ... alone.  I could be in error; he might be walking with someone or, driving or nearly anything else but posting to an FC forum.

Or perhaps, he walks alone to the truck, drives into town to pick "someone" up, drives back, walks with said "someone" into the abode and then doing nearly any thing else but posting to a FC forum 

or.....perhaps not 

Either you haven't left yet or, she's waiting for you waiting on her.  Other possibilities spring to mind as well ... you could've said that you're going elk-hunting or even say nothing, (and leave mysteriously, only to return later, just as mysteriously).

no I'm still he

[falcon9]

Or perhaps, he walks alone to the truck, drives into town to pick "someone" up, drives back, walks with said "someone" into the abode and then doing nearly any thing else but posting to a FC forum 

or.....perhaps not 

Either you haven't left yet or, she's waiting for you waiting on her.  Other possibilities spring to mind as well ... you could've said that you're going elk-hunting or even say nothing, (and leave mysteriously, only to return later, just as mysteriously).

no I'm still he

I'd figured that and meant that she might be waiting for you, (he), to pick her up.  The only way to know is to call her or, get in your truck and go find her, (I have no idea who she is - this is all speculation based on your posted suppositions).  Whatever you do, enjoy it, man.