IF it wasn't for God we would be here

[falcon9]

[falcon9] ... then, others 'praying' to "heal" someone else would be ineffectual.

...it would depend on what the afflicted one's will was, and the condition of their heart toward God and their level of faith.

Not if they were unconscious and unaware that they were being 'prayed for'.  Be that as it may, the parameters you've mentioned are too vague to assert as conditions. 
 

[falcon9]It couldn't be that such a "god" is purportedly 'kind' enough to do so without such 'payment' but, apparently not.

[/quote]

Again, WHY should He?  He's under no obligation whatsoever. 

Not even as a purportly 'kind and loving god', huh?  Okay, then "he" would be equally under no obligation even if 'prayed to', therefore, such attempts at 'invocations' are entreaties/wish-making which are indistinguishable from not 'praying' in lack of results.

He gave his only Son to be nailed to a cross for everyone ...

This concept of 'redeeming sacrifice' is an irrational tenet of 'faith' and has no tenable meaning.  It gets ascribed all sorts of religious meaning which boil down to a 'ransom of one for many', (and that itself only makes 'sense' to believers - for all others, it is devoid of reason).

Anyone that brags/advertises about themselves having "healing powers" and that it's a "gift from God" typically either has a mental affliction or satan is working through them.  How do I know?  Because Believers that have healing capabilities give God all the glory and the praise-- they don't brag about themselves "being able to heal".

This is merely placing the 'credit' for "healing" upon a false attribution.

Only God knows...the only thing anyone else can do is "speculate". 

Thank you for concurring that the assertions made were speculative.  I dissented with such speculations because they lack an evidentiary basis.
 

[falcon] On the contrary, there's not a shred of evidence to support a contention that such "salvation prayers" wre answered.  How would you know?

[/quote] 

I would know because it happened in my family.  My aunt had a weak heart.  She had three sons that had been brought up in church and all three of them were a heart-break for her.  One was a drug-addict, one was in trouble all the time with the police and the third was an alcoholic.  She had told us she was praying for those boys' (teenagers) salvation.  She loved them and that's all she wanted was for them to re-find the Lord.  She died in an abulance on the way to the hospital, it was sudden and
unexpected because even though she had a weak heart...noone thought she'd die so young.  The youngest son right away started back to church and got into a program to help him get off the drugs.  Within two years, the middle son starting going to a church and re-dedicated his life to the Lord.  It took almost twelve years for the oldest son to go back to God, he still had a few years there where he really battled the alcohol.  All three boys have said they knew she had been praying for them, they had heard her many nights praying for hours...and they wanted to see her again someday in Heaven.  I know her and would think that if she were asked if she would rather come back to earth or let the boys keep their salvation, she would chose to stay in Heaven.  

In the example given, such reactions could have been more easily ascribed to 'grief' than to "salvations".  Either attribution is speculative and neither can be accurately attributed as described.  Doing so is making a 'faith-based' judgement call which, for those who do not believe such things, is unnecessary.

Firstly, there is no evidence to support the contentions that "god gave that man a brain and several warning signs".  These contentions have the form of an unfounded belief since people are nominally born with brains, sans any direct attribution to a 'creator', (other than a person's parents). Secondly, doing something stupid or wise is up to the free-willed person and not some externally-posited 'deity'.

Yes, I should have known that the moment I forgot to mention that the guy could have gotten his "brain & warning signs"' from his parents, it would be pointed out.  Considering how his brain "worked", yes...he probably did get that from his parents.  It was his "free will" to ignore all the warning signs...God isn't going to stop anyone from making a mistake.  There are consequences for being stupid.  His is called "R.I.P".

As mentioned, doing something stupid or wise is up to the free-willed person and not some externally-posited 'deity', (for which evidence supporting such a claim is entirely lacking). 

I'll refer you to Genesis ...

No thank you, the source of the reference is too dubious, vague and does not contain the individual "plan" you alluded to.

lacks "evidentiary basis and relies instead upon faith"??  Huh? 

That's what can often happen when too much context is snipped in reply.  That context was your assertion that illness/disease was caused by "satan", (if you would like the exact quotes, "It could very well be that that sickness was a result of disobedience to God" and "Sickness/afflictions happen that is the result of satan trying to keep a person in bondage").

I don't have to use faith, I wouldn't even have to be a Believer to see that the alcoholic is in bondage, the "druggie" is in bondage, the glutton, the prostitutes, the mentally ill. the child predators/molestors, serial killers, etc. are in bondage and it sure isn't to God. 

No, it is to those 'vices'/habits and these can neither be attributed to "god" or "satan".  This was was point about lacking evidentiary basis to support such claims.

God can heal people of these things. 

That's a speculative claim which lacks evidence.

People do not get into "bondage" with these things because they were following God.  Bondage to satan is just that and he won't give up any soul he's claimed as his easily. 

There is no evidence that such afflications constitute "bondage to satan"; this being a spurious contention which, (again), lacks supportive evidence.

Bondage to God?  No ...

Yes, according to your previous comments regarding "... the condition of their heart toward God and their level of faith ... ", such can be accurately termed as "bondage". {dubious source reference omitted for reasons given within this reply}

[SherylsShado]

yes falcon9, I "speculate" alot.  You'd be surprised what one can learn about God from watching Him work in other's lives.   You are so quick to judge and dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your line of thinking with any excuse at all...even if the excuse doesn't make much sense.  Your quote: 

(and that itself only makes 'sense' to believers - for all others, it is devoid of reason).

It couldn't possibly be "that all others are devoid of reason"...could it??

[queenofnines]

What sense would it really make for God to heal everyone just to have them die again from something else later?

Are you really asking this question?  You don't see the point in healing those with childhood cancer, AIDS, early-onset Alzheimer's, or any other number of diseases-before-one's-time?  "You're going to die anyway, so just accept an early, painful, devastating death."  ?!

[Falconer02]

Are you really asking this question?  You don't see the point in healing those with childhood cancer, AIDS, early-onset Alzheimer's, or any other number of diseases-before-one's-time?  "You're going to die anyway, so just accept an early, painful, devastating death."  ?!

I don't see how it's not a sickening way to imagine a god and life.

I "speculate" alot.  You'd be surprised what one can learn about God from watching Him work in other's lives.

When you speculate, you can attribute virtually anything to anything, so it's furthest from the best way to argue something. The reason it's sunny outside? It's because I ate a PB sandwich earlier! The reason I ate a PB sandwich earlier? I felt the presence of Allah and I felt I had to eat PB when that happened! I have all of these crazy preconcieved notions that I can say are legit just as you can say you can see god working in other's lives. It's the exact same thing.

You are so quick to judge and dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your line of thinking with any excuse at all...even if the excuse doesn't make much sense.

"There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks who have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and the frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. They are the sheep who beg to be fleeced and butchered, and who will battle fiercely to preserve their right to be victimized"

- James Randi

[Thesaboteur]

I believe in the Ancien Astronaut theory. The gods are actually aliens from another world and have left us to develop our race and will eventually come back. Makes sense and bs at the same time. If you look at the ancient stories, there are sky beings and in this theory, they are aliens.

[SherylsShado]

What sense would it really make for God to heal everyone just to have them die again from something else later?

Are you really asking this question?  You don't see the point in healing those with childhood cancer, AIDS, early-onset Alzheimer's, or any other number of diseases-before-one's-time?  "You're going to die anyway, so just accept an early, painful, devastating death."  ?!

No, I don't see the point.  Those children that die from childhood cancer automatically go to Heaven when they die...whereas they probably wouldn't were they to grow up and have the world harden their hearts against God.  It's when many people are facing an early, painful, devasting death that they seek God, that they yearn to know what awaits them after this life.   As for the pain & suffering, every person will die--it's just a matter of when and how.  When one has things right with God, it doesn't matter how much pain & suffering they have to endure because once they are in Heaven---they won't ever feel any pain again.  

Jesus died a more painful & horrible death than anyone with cancer, aids, Alzheimer's and any other diseases that I can think of---so have many other people that have been tortured & killed (past & present).  Certainly one can't appreciate the "circle of life" without realizing death, no matter how it happens, is a BIG part of that.  

[SherylsShado]

"There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks who have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and the frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. They are the sheep who beg to be fleeced and butchered, and who will battle fiercely to preserve their right to be victimized"

- James Randi

Matthew 5:10-12 (NKJV) Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
-Jesus

[falcon9]

yes falcon9, I "speculate" alot.  You'd be surprised what one can learn about God from watching Him work in other's lives.  

You'd also be surprised at how many inaccurate speculations occur due to faulty, (or no), reasoning involved.  Randomly attributing various occurrances to various "gods & goddesses" was what ancient peoples used to due, (e.g., lightning was from Thor, Hapi was a fertility deity, etc.).  These superstitious beliefs were attempts to explain the unexplainable and the same applies to other religious beliefs when one speculates using 'faith' instead of reasoning.

You are so quick to judge and dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your line of thinking ...

It isn't as "quick" as you may speculate it to be.  It's taken years, decades in some instances, for me to hone such a philosophical foundational method of reason.  Irrationality has not lead to the expansion and deepening of knowledge; reason has.
 

with any excuse at all...even if the excuse doesn't make much sense.  

What "excuse" has been employed by logical dissenting arguements?  On the other hand, I've seen numerous 'justifications' for using illogical "excuses" for avoiding reasoning, ('faith' being comparatively 'easier' on the mind than reasoning?).

Your quote:  

(and that itself only makes 'sense' to believers - for all others, it is devoid of reason).

It couldn't possibly be "that all others are devoid of reason"...could it??

It is a misnomer to apply the term "sense" to a process which lacks reasoning, (such as 'faith').

[Falconer02]

Those children that die from childhood cancer automatically go to Heaven when they die...whereas they probably wouldn't were they to grow up and have the world harden their hearts against God.  It's when many people are facing an early, painful, devasting death that they seek God, that they yearn to know what awaits them after this life.   As for the pain & suffering, every person will die--it's just a matter of when and how.  When one has things right with God, it doesn't matter how much pain & suffering they have to endure because once they are in Heaven---they won't ever feel any pain again.   

The amount of contrived speculation here is just ludicrous.

Jesus died a more painful & horrible death than anyone with cancer, aids, Alzheimer's and any other diseases that I can think of

Yes. Perhaps you should research what the churches did to people in the Dark Ages as it was a mixture of torture and disease. It really makes one wonder-- If it wasn't for the belief in random popular gods, would we be closer to a utopian world? Just removing the Dark Ages alone would probably do wonders.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Well then, according to history, Christians will certainly not be going to heaven as they have (for the majority of the religion's popularity) been the dangerous and delusional persecutors. Even today. When you contest a bible verse (from a heroic archaetype that cannot even be trusted for coining that quote) against a man (who definitely lives today) who devotes his life to educating people of fraudulent behavior all around the world, something is very very wrong with your reasoning skills. A poisoned mind resistant to genuine enlightened reasoning is a pointless thing to argue with.

[falcon9]

Those children that die from childhood cancer automatically go to Heaven when they die...

Such a belief has no basis in anything other than 'faith'.  Why not leave newborns out alone in the woods so that they can die and "automatically go to heaven"? Meanwhile, among the living, others endeavor to find medical solutions to illnesses.

whereas they probably wouldn't were they to grow up and have the world harden their hearts against God.  

No doubt this is why some xtian cults have forced kids to "drink the koolaid" before "the world hardens their hearts" however, this type of opting-out is frowned upon by others.

It's when many people are facing an early, painful, devasting death that they seek God, that they yearn to know what awaits them after this life.   As for the pain & suffering, every person will die--it's just a matter of when and how.  When one has things right with God, it doesn't matter how much pain & suffering they have to endure because once they are in Heaven---they won't ever feel any pain again.  

Such beliefs have no basis in anything other than 'faith' and 'faith' has no basis at all.  These constitute empty speculations because their foundations rest in irrational religious speculations and false attributions rather than arising from a basis of evidence.
 

[falcon9]

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Well then, according to history, Christians will certainly not be going to heaven.

Further, dissenting arguments do not constitute 'persecution' unless the claimaint is shooting for pseudo-martyrdom.

[Falconer02]

Further, dissenting arguments do not constitute 'persecution' unless the claimaint is shooting for pseudo-martyrdom.

And obviously they are trying to play the victim card. Thus the fake "war on religion" in america.

[falcon9]

Further, dissenting arguments do not constitute 'persecution' unless the claimaint is shooting for pseudo-martyrdom.

And obviously they are trying to play the victim card. Thus the fake "war on religion" in america.

In a strange twist, many of those religious adherents who selectively 'oppose' reason do not apply such irrationality to many other aspects of their lives, (while others may do so, to the extent of nearly complete irrationality).  Supposedly, religionists out-number non-religionists so, how is it that the 'minority' is "persecuting" the 'majority'?

[abdyer2001]

Matthew 5:10-12 (NKJV) Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
-Jesus
[/quote]

you do realize that this was written by man don't you..

[falcon9]

Matthew 5:10-12 (NKJV) Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
-Jesus

you do realize that this was written by man don't you..

Not only that, attempts at 'justifying' such as "inspired by god" are without substantive basis.  There is no evidence for such a belief, (which is why they constitute 'faith-based' speculations).  This is also why makes such references to a dubious source are not a basis for rational argument.  They do, however, seem to form a basis for irrational arguing.