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falcon9

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #255 on: April 25, 2012, 12:30:28 pm »
We are getting into an area here that is a bit grey to me. I have personal issues with people praying on behalf of another without that persons knowledge or consent, however, if the intent of said prayer was to attempt to be beneficial to the person being prayed for, I'm not sure I would see it as morally wrong.

As to that caveat, here's the contention: the overt intention is immaterial if the covert, (or even unintentional), one involves invoking a (hypothetical) supernatural being whom even it's believers contend has it's own "will", (which is unknown to it's believers).  That means such magical intercessory invocations could have unintended effects or, no effect at all.  If they have no effect at all, (for believers and disbelievers alike), then surely no one could reasonable object to or, be 'offended' by "waterbearer's" "black magic" suggestion, (same thing, different aspect).

The rest of Falcon9's reply is exactly what I was attempting to convey.

'One can conclude that either such "religious threats" are not credible, (and that can only be concluded if belief in such things is unreasonable), or that only unreasonable persons would perceive both the "threat" and the underlying belief for the threat as credible.  Logically, there are no other alternatives in this instance.'
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

walksalone11

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #256 on: April 25, 2012, 12:42:46 pm »
It is my opinion, that intent, is a huge part of whether an act is right or wrong.


If in fact prayers are answered, then there is the possibility that the answer may be totally unexpected in that it may not at all resemble what "we" had in mind. This brings us into a whole new area where we should bear some responsibility for the consequences of our actions which in this case would be the act of praying.

falcon9

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #257 on: April 25, 2012, 12:57:30 pm »
It is my opinion, that intent, is a huge part of whether an act is right or wrong.

While "intent" can often be difficult to discern, (whether stated, unstated or unintended 'intent'), it remains quite possible for even overtly 'positive' intent to have 'negative' consequences.

An irresponsible camper, intending to build a fire to keep warm, unintentionally sets the forest on fire, for example.  Such a pragmatic example wouldn't apply if "prayer" is ineffective, (no matter what the intent of doing such intercessory magical invocation was).

If in fact prayers are answered, then there is the possibility that the answer may be totally unexpected in that it may not at all resemble what "we" had in mind. This brings us into a whole new area where we should bear some responsibility for the consequences of our actions which in this case would be the act of praying.

The other side of that same coin is that, if prayers are unanswered either the 'deity' prayed to wants to answer and cannot, or 'he' can but does not want to. If "he" wants to but cannot "he" is impotent. If "he" can but does not want to,"he" is wicked. If "he" neither can nor wants to, then "he" is both powerless and wicked, (excepted from Epicurus).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 03:54:24 pm by falcon9 »
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

sfister65

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #258 on: April 25, 2012, 03:55:12 pm »
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?

I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray. :wave:
Even though I don't tell anyone I'll pray for you, I do pray. I ask God to bless and look out for everyone.

walksalone11

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #259 on: April 25, 2012, 04:00:25 pm »
i think you are morally wrong there walksalone...
think of this would you kill someone who raped your daughter if there was no laws or would you let them continue to go rape others and maybe even your daughter again if you knew he was going to do this?
so using evil (violence, black magic) to get rid of evil is bad?
how else can you defend yourself? because you use force against force
for example imagine someone evil is controlling the government and making everyone suffer and someone used black magic on him... would you say that person who used the black magic was morally wrong even if there intention was to make it better for everyone?
you can fight the fire with fire or let it burn you up... i'm not saying which one is right i'm asking you what you think?
What I, or anyone else may do in any given circumstance, and what is of good moral character, may or may not be the same thing.

What do I think? I think it is never "right" to kill anyone. Would I kill someone under some certain circumstances? I would.

falcon9

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #260 on: April 25, 2012, 04:01:10 pm »
Even though I don't tell anyone I'll pray for you, I do pray. I ask God to bless and look out for everyone.

Even if that's much like calling a disconnected number, (or one that was never in service in the first place)?  You are as free to perform intercessory magical invocations to entreat hypothetical beings as others are to question the efficacy of doing so.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

fc2

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #261 on: July 25, 2012, 07:45:47 am »
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?

No, people who say this don't do it; it's just something they say to put the absolute least effort forward to pretend they're doing something about a situation.  Or they say it to be a self-righteous *bleep* to people they "pity" (like atheists).

While we're being "honest" about prayer -- you can get the same results praying to a jug of milk.

Maybe atheism and agnosticism isn't for you queeny. Perhaps, might I suggest Jesus and God for you queenofnines?  ;) You're just as cute as can be queen of nines  :wave: Secondly, how can you tell if someone's not being honest about praying for you or not queenster?  ::)
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tzs

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #262 on: July 25, 2012, 12:06:28 pm »
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. The truth is, you are the maker of destiny, not prayer. If you want to help someone going through hard times, just being their friend and confidant will make a difference. People who believe prayer works don't get that reguardless of what they hope for, people will do what they want, feel how they want, and make their own paths and decisions. For instance, you can pray for the people in Syria and the violence to stop all you want to, but that's not going to change the fact that Pres. Assad is determined to keep killing his own people everyday. So no, you shouldn't pray for people you don't know- Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever! :thumbsup:
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vickysue

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #263 on: July 25, 2012, 02:06:09 pm »
When i hear someone is in need of prayer i usually do it right then. Never put things off or it might not get done.

falcon9

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #264 on: July 25, 2012, 10:36:06 pm »
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world.  Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever!

"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Abrupt

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #265 on: July 26, 2012, 11:39:47 am »
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. The truth is, you are the maker of destiny, not prayer. If you want to help someone going through hard times, just being their friend and confidant will make a difference. People who believe prayer works don't get that reguardless of what they hope for, people will do what they want, feel how they want, and make their own paths and decisions. For instance, you can pray for the people in Syria and the violence to stop all you want to, but that's not going to change the fact that Pres. Assad is determined to keep killing his own people everyday. So no, you shouldn't pray for people you don't know- Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever! :thumbsup:

Avoiding the religious references, you surely must realize the importance of something as simple as a thought in your head.  Thoughts will have an effect upon the body and through that upon ones environment.

I remember as a kid being around a nervous dog that would tend to frequently snap at me, I was told to "not show fear" as the way to avoid being bitten (by those that were also around this animal and never ever bitten).  I didn't quite realize properly how to do that but I understood the general principle.

Later in life while working with horses I had one horse that would freak out when walking over a spot in some cement where the line of the form was at.  Most others had no troubles leading this horse over that line (some did, though).  The trainer indicated to me that I was giving indication of nervousness or tenseness to the animal unbeknownst to me.  I told him I was acting the same as always but he showed me how he had no problems and explained that horses (as most animals -- including people) can pick up the subtle indications that we give off (a tightening of grip on the lead or increased tension on the lead, stiffening of the arm, subtle change in pace, turning to look at the animal or the spot, etc).  He said you can try to adjust these things but often you don't realize which it is and when you try to adjust you only end up highlighting focus on them or causing something new.  He taught me that the best way was to picture yourself walking the horse over the line and the horse acting fine.  He said to "tell yourself the horse will walk over the line fine and without any problems" while picturing it.  This had a stunning and noticeable effect and improvement was immediate (although it wasn't initially complete but noticeably better until the "freak out" sessions practically disappeared).

I also used 'visualization techniques' to improve my three point shooting from poor to where I could hit 70% or more of these shots from a set and unguarded position.  I used visualization to break sticking points in weight lifting to overcome a problem with benching more than 300.  I am sure others have had experience with such things.

As I mentioned, people also notice such things.  I am not saying that this is the mechanism of prayer as I believe prayer has its own source, but I am sure this does lend to solutions.  Whenever you focus mentally on something or visualize an outcome your body does not know the difference and works as it can to conform to this image or to accept it.  Your body can even develop neuromuscular pathways as a result of simple visualization.  Your brain can also be prompted to get out of the way with its doubts and uncertainties.  The subject is more complex than that, of course, but the proof is evident that "thoughts in your head" do have a significant effect upon yourself and your surroundings.
There are only 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary, and those who don't.

fc2

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #266 on: July 26, 2012, 12:08:50 pm »
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. The truth is, you are the maker of destiny, not prayer. If you want to help someone going through hard times, just being their friend and confidant will make a difference. People who believe prayer works don't get that reguardless of what they hope for, people will do what they want, feel how they want, and make their own paths and decisions. For instance, you can pray for the people in Syria and the violence to stop all you want to, but that's not going to change the fact that Pres. Assad is determined to keep killing his own people everyday. So no, you shouldn't pray for people you don't know- Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever! :thumbsup:

Avoiding the religious references, you surely must realize the importance of something as simple as a thought in your head.  Thoughts will have an effect upon the body and through that upon ones environment.

I remember as a kid being around a nervous dog that would tend to frequently snap at me, I was told to "not show fear" as the way to avoid being bitten (by those that were also around this animal and never ever bitten).  I didn't quite realize properly how to do that but I understood the general principle.

Later in life while working with horses I had one horse that would freak out when walking over a spot in some cement where the line of the form was at.  Most others had no troubles leading this horse over that line (some did, though).  The trainer indicated to me that I was giving indication of nervousness or tenseness to the animal unbeknownst to me.  I told him I was acting the same as always but he showed me how he had no problems and explained that horses (as most animals -- including people) can pick up the subtle indications that we give off (a tightening of grip on the lead or increased tension on the lead, stiffening of the arm, subtle change in pace, turning to look at the animal or the spot, etc).  He said you can try to adjust these things but often you don't realize which it is and when you try to adjust you only end up highlighting focus on them or causing something new.  He taught me that the best way was to picture yourself walking the horse over the line and the horse acting fine.  He said to "tell yourself the horse will walk over the line fine and without any problems" while picturing it.  This had a stunning and noticeable effect and improvement was immediate (although it wasn't initially complete but noticeably better until the "freak out" sessions practically disappeared).

I also used 'visualization techniques' to improve my three point shooting from poor to where I could hit 70% or more of these shots from a set and unguarded position.  I used visualization to break sticking points in weight lifting to overcome a problem with benching more than 300.  I am sure others have had experience with such things.

As I mentioned, people also notice such things.  I am not saying that this is the mechanism of prayer as I believe prayer has its own source, but I am sure this does lend to solutions.  Whenever you focus mentally on something or visualize an outcome your body does not know the difference and works as it can to conform to this image or to accept it.  Your body can even develop neuromuscular pathways as a result of simple visualization.  Your brain can also be prompted to get out of the way with its doubts and uncertainties.  The subject is more complex than that, of course, but the proof is evident that "thoughts in your head" do have a significant effect upon yourself and your surroundings.

abrupt,

Without the long paragraph. Is prayer useful to you or not? :thumbsup:
FC2

Abrupt

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #267 on: July 26, 2012, 02:24:21 pm »
abrupt,

Without the long paragraph. Is prayer useful to you or not? :thumbsup:

Yes.
There are only 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary, and those who don't.

falcon9

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #268 on: July 26, 2012, 05:38:33 pm »
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. The truth is, you are the maker of destiny, not prayer. If you want to help someone going through hard times, just being their friend and confidant will make a difference. People who believe prayer works don't get that reguardless of what they hope for, people will do what they want, feel how they want, and make their own paths and decisions. Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever!

Avoiding the religious references, you surely must realize the importance of something as simple as a thought in your head.  

Doubtless you'd prefer to avoid religious references however, the subject matter directly regards so-called "prayer" and the inherent religious references directly pertain.  With that in mind, (the use of that phrase was chosen for a purpose), the thoughts in one's head are not quite parallel to "prayer".  First, "prayer" is supposedly intended to go beyond being just thoughts in someone's skull and consists of a few variants of 'intercessory ritual invocation'.

Directing an intercessory invocation to a hypothetical supernatural entity is not the same as thinking other, non-delusional thoughts.

Your brain can also be prompted to get out of the way with its doubts and uncertainties. 

If that's a reference to using self-deluding religious propaganda to 'prompt' reason/rationality to "get out of the way" so that irrationality can take hold instead, no thanks.

The subject is more complex than that, of course, but the proof is evident that "thoughts in your head" do have a significant effect upon yourself and your surroundings.

Yes however, there is no evident proof that religious prayers have any effect whatsoever on one's surroundings, (and any placebo effects on one's on body/mind are not significantly-valid evidence beyond the placebo effect).

One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

joannaingram84

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Re: Lets Be Honest About Praying
« Reply #269 on: July 26, 2012, 05:57:00 pm »
I definitely believe in prayer but don't think that there should be specific ways you can pray. Most people believe you should pray in one of two ways: in church or privately in a quiet room. I believe prayer can be as simple as talking aloud wherever you are. God always listens and hears everything we say.

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