Lets Be Honest About Praying

[falcon9]

There are a lot of people who "directly" help people in need, whether monetary, physical work, or otherwise.  It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help.  Some people, who may be disabled themselves, and cannot help "directly," know they can pray and feel comforted knowing God has heard them.  I know you don't pray or agree with it - that's your decision.  But, for those who do pray, that's also their decision, whether you say it's not real or otherwise. 

Like the doctor example I made earlier, this is an example of false attribution. You say you know, but you don't. But obviously it is the individuals decision and if it acts as a placebo (to the person praying and/or the person he/she told they were praying for), I have no real quarrel with it.

To prove that prayer really works, we need a properly-conducted double-blind study (i.e., neither the subjects nor the test administrators know who's getting the treatment and who's getting a placebo), just as it would be for any other claimed treatment. Otherwise, if the sick person believes the prayer will help, it may, just as a sugar pill may help as a placebo if a doctor tells a patient it contains powerful medicine. Also, one must keep in mind that the placebo effect isn't effective in every instance, (which includes 'prayer').

[ULuvCeCe]

So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night.

Sounds like hit & run posting instead of being involved in the debate & discussion on the subject you raised.

Not so much hit and run, every month I post a question I've been pondering and see what others think. Doesn't mean I have to participate in the conversation, if it did FC wouldn't have paid me every single month that I've been a member and yes these are the posts I chose as one of my top 3, heck if you post it and it grows to now 4 pages well I did a great job in my mind.

If I do see something on my thread that has tugged at me I will comment on that persons post specifically but so far very few of your thoughts have affected me, my thoughts on prayer or religion. I just dreamt about you guys and wanted to laugh about it but again obviously taken out of context

[Falconer02]

very few of your thoughts have affected me, my thoughts on prayer or religion. I just dreamt about you guys and wanted to laugh about it but again obviously taken out of context

I feel some sort of odd and awkward trolling took place just now.

[falcon9]

Not so much hit and run, every month I post a question I've been pondering and see what others think. Doesn't mean I have to participate in the conversation ...

True, there's no requirement to participate in any thread you start however, not doing so can be accurately described as 'hit & run', (and there's no prohibition against doing that either).

If I do see something on my thread that has tugged at me I will comment on that persons post specifically but so far very few of your thoughts have affected me, my thoughts on prayer or religion.

Conversely, few have bothered to respond to challenges concerning their publically-posted thoughts on prayer or religion.  That's either some kind of cosmic coincidence or, a primal fear of questioning blind faith.

I just dreamt about you guys and wanted to laugh about it but again obviously taken out of context

Since no specific context was mentioned, only speculation remains.

[falcon9]

... very few of your thoughts have affected me, my thoughts on prayer or religion. I just dreamt about you guys and wanted to laugh about it but again obviously taken out of context.

I feel some sort of odd and awkward trolling took place just now.

Perhaps so however, it remains my policy to feed trolls something indigestable and that's unchanged in this instance.

[jcribb16]

It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help.

And again we go back to the oh-so-often overlooked element: why in the world is an almighty entity able to be persuaded by the lowly ants he created?!  If he already knows all of your thoughts, not to mention what will happen in the future, prayer does nothing except make a select few feel "comforted". 

What makes YOU feel so important that you think you have any say in a "divine plan" that was crafted before humanity even existed?  Why would you assume an all-powerful being would be concerned with the petty matters that people often pray about?

I am not that important, but thanks for trying.  I don't have any say in the "divine plan" of God other than trying to live my life the best I can, including praying for others and helping others.  As far as your assumption, my only response is that you would have to have a relationship with God in order to understand God being concerned with very important matters that people do indeed pray about.  I know, you've said you have been there once - that's between you and God (or now no-god since you don't believe there is God.)  I'm there now, with my faith in God, and it's so real that I could never turn my back on Him. 
Wow!!  We haven't spoken with each other in a very long time - thanks for chatting again!  This was very interesting! 





Do you see the faults in your beliefs?  (That's a rhetorical question, because obviously you don't).

[jcribb16]

I know some have come in here and totally switched your post around from the original thought you had in mind when posting this. 

Please quote where this has occurred.  I've read all the posts in this thread; some have been honest about "praying" & 'prayer' and some have not, (oddly enough, the ones who have requested honesty about it have not been xtian).  Both positions have replied in context and neither has "totally switched" the original intent, (unless you're implying the the original intent was not to have dissent regarding the honesty of "praying").

Don't let things like that distract your faith in God or your desire to pray.  Many choose not to believe in something they cannot see - therefore ...

...Therefore, believing in something that cannot be seen is a major aspect of 'blind faith', (since, if the subject of belief could be seen, no 'faith' would be required).
You are still having troubles getting around that obstacle of "blind faith."  I feel your frustration of not being able to understand how people have "blind faith" in God. 

... they can't experience the feeling of seeing prayers answered. 

Or, more accurately, they don't attribute observed effects to supernatural causes.

[jcribb16]

There are a lot of people who "directly" help people in need, whether monetary, physical work, or otherwise.  It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help.  Some people, who may be disabled themselves, and cannot help "directly," know they can pray and feel comforted knowing God has heard them.  I know you don't pray or agree with it - that's your decision.  But, for those who do pray, that's also their decision, whether you say it's not real or otherwise. 

Like the doctor example I made earlier, this is an example of false attribution. You say you know, but you don't. But obviously it is the individuals decision and if it acts as a placebo (to the person praying and/or the person he/she told they were praying for), I have no real quarrel with it.

To prove that prayer really works, we need a properly-conducted double-blind study (i.e., neither the subjects nor the test administrators know who's getting the treatment and who's getting a placebo), just as it would be for any other claimed treatment. Otherwise, if the sick person believes the prayer will help, it may, just as a sugar pill may help as a placebo if a doctor tells a patient it contains powerful medicine. Also, one must keep in mind that the placebo effect isn't effective in every instance, (which includes 'prayer').

I see you are still struggling with this thing called prayer working.  *sigh*  It's really not as hard as you are making it out to be.  You have to be willing to accept Christ as your Lord for it to work for you and for you to understand why God answers prayers with different answers.  But, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.  You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."

[Falconer02]

You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."

Why not accept and pray to Vishnu?

[falcon9]

I see you are still struggling with this thing called prayer working.  *sigh*  It's really not as hard as you are making it out to be. 

On the contrary, I'm not struggling at all with concept that the claim of 'prayer working' has yet to be supported by verifiable evidence.  A double-blind test may not show a significant difference between the placebo effect and 'prayer', (the two may or may not be statistically equivalent).

You have to be willing to accept Christ as your Lord for it to work for you ...

Why would I willingly blind myself with such a delusion?

...and for you to understand why God answers prayers with different answers. 

Your assertion is devoid of any evidence with accurately attributes 'prayer' with any tangible result.

But, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. 

Insofar as you meant that I already know how to reason and that you're telling me nothing substantial, you'd be spot on.

You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."[/color]

I don't consider blind faith to be an obstacle to anything but reason, whereas you tacitly consider it a prerequisite to accepting such a delusion.

[falcon9]

...Therefore, believing in something that cannot be seen is a major aspect of 'blind faith', (since, if the subject of belief could be seen, no 'faith' would be required).

You are still having troubles getting around that obstacle of "blind faith." 

Once again, I have no problem at all pointing out how blind faith obstructs reason.  You've seen my reiterations of this before and mentioning them again would encourage redundancy.

I feel your frustration of not being able to understand how people have "blind faith" in God.  [/color]

On the contrary, it is possible to understand that people who have blind faith in a deital form eschew reason, deny that they are doing so while in the midst of it and are essentially betting on a forlorn hope dark horse.

[jcribb16]

You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."

Why not accept and pray to Vishnu?

Thanks very much for your invitation, but no thank you. 

[jcribb16]

I see you are still struggling with this thing called prayer working.  *sigh*  It's really not as hard as you are making it out to be. 

On the contrary, I'm not struggling at all with concept that the claim of 'prayer working' has yet to be supported by verifiable evidence.  A double-blind test may not show a significant difference between the placebo effect and 'prayer', (the two may or may not be statistically equivalent).

You have to be willing to accept Christ as your Lord for it to work for you ...

Why would I willingly blind myself with such a delusion?

Well now, you know the answer to your own question.  Several have provided the answer as well.  You know it comes down to what you are willing to choose or not choose.  We already know what you have chosen.  And if you are satisfied with your choice and aren't open to a different choice, then who am I to try and change your mind?  I know what I CAN do, but some of you hate that word called prayer.  Strange but neat things about prayer:  it's a wonderful thing when it's answered, especially for a specific situation and/or a specific person. 

...and for you to understand why God answers prayers with different answers. 

Your assertion is devoid of any evidence with accurately attributes 'prayer' with any tangible result.

But, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. 

Insofar as you meant that I already know how to reason and that you're telling me nothing substantial, you'd be spot on.

You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."[/color]

I don't consider blind faith to be an obstacle to anything but reason, whereas you tacitly consider it a prerequisite to accepting such a delusion.

[jcribb16]

...Therefore, believing in something that cannot be seen is a major aspect of 'blind faith', (since, if the subject of belief could be seen, no 'faith' would be required).

You are still having troubles getting around that obstacle of "blind faith." 

Once again, I have no problem at all pointing out how blind faith obstructs reason.  You've seen my reiterations of this before and mentioning them again would encourage redundancy.

Ah, yes, I know you have no problem whatsoever pointing out how "blind faith" obstructs reason.  We've heard it many many times.  Yep, I've also seen your reiterations....   I would say that your comment of "mentioning them again would encourage redundancy"  is  exactly right if it was turned around for me to say the same thing to you about you encouraging redundancy from my end for you mentioning them again. 

Roadblocks can only last so long before they are opened and you can pass through or you can choose to go a different way - same with "blind faith" - you can pass through or choose a different way.  Up to this point we have both made our choices:  the roadblock was removed for me and I passed through.  You have instead taken a different direction. 

I feel your frustration of not being able to understand how people have "blind faith" in God.  [/color]

On the contrary, it is possible to understand that people who have blind faith in a deital form eschew reason, deny that they are doing so while in the midst of it and are essentially betting on a forlorn hope dark horse.

[falcon9]

Strange but neat things about prayer:  it's a wonderful thing when it's answered, especially for a specific situation and/or a specific person. 

How are you determining that the effect, (allegedly 'answered prayer'), can be directly attributed to only the cause, ('praying')?