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Topic: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Read 6963 times)

handllucas

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2012, 05:34:12 pm »
100%. all the time, heart,mind, body and soul.

kdtobin2003

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2012, 05:40:42 pm »
Yes, I believe in GOD.  Someone once ask me why I would believe in someone that I couldn't see.  I asked them, do you believe the brisk breeze we feel is wind?  They replied yes,  I then asked them, why would you believe in something that you cannot see.

falcon9

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2012, 05:42:52 pm »
Yes, I believe in GOD.  Someone once ask me why I would believe in someone that I couldn't see.  I asked them, do you believe the brisk breeze we feel is wind?  They replied yes,  I then asked them, why would you believe in something that you cannot see.



The analogy is demonstrably false.  The wind is measurable, (not just unseen and felt/detected).  There have no similarly measurable/detectable deities to date.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

queenofnines

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2012, 10:44:26 am »
Without an ultimate judge as to the good of an action the action could never be considered good.

No.  An action is not good or bad because god "says so"; it could only be good or bad for some ultimate, unchanging reason, and that type of morality doesn't exist.  Religious morality isn't dependent on actual reasons why something is right or wrong, it's dependent on the whims of a supernatural entity.  And don't even try to tell me that your god doesn't change his mind, because that would be demonstrably false when referencing your holy book.

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I never said they should be "raping, murdering thieves" and I find it odd your inclination is to use emotional base imagery.

And yet you are quick to say how, as an atheist, you would be "worse than any tyrant in history"...how is that not "emotional base imagery"?  My statement was an interpretation of your opinions.

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it is all purely to enjoy this fleeting existence to the best that is possible.

Finally, an assumption you haven't fabricated.  This holds true for at least me.

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No action committed by the atheist would subject to any judgement, except by them.

Yes, because atheists are all hermits who live on deserted islands and never have to interact with another human being, ever.   ::)  Do you see the fallacy in what you are saying?

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The greatest human threat to the atheist (in a stable environment) would indeed by another atheist, the least threat would be a devoutly religious person (since the religious would be obvious and predictable).

Interesting.  I suppose I should keep one eye open when sleeping in bed next to my atheist husband then, huh?  And religious people are far from predictable.  One cannot always tell how far off the deep end a religious person is, because each individual crafts their own godly guidelines to abide by.

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If you are unbound by religion why do you struggle so in life?

Why in the world would you assume someone you've never met is struggling?  You know nothing about the real lives of anyone on here, atheist or not.

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You want money why don't you claim what is yours by right of will?  Why choose to be as sheep among people when you describe yourself as a wolf?

The only money that is mine is the money I earn, win, or share.  And you are the one labeling people as wolves (when the label instead should be yours and yours alone).
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

Abrupt

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2012, 04:07:38 pm »
Why would I want to be ethical?

Because human animals only act for 2 reasons: either to gain pleasure, or to avoid pain.  Unless you're a sociopath, for most people, it would bring emotional PAIN to harm others in an extreme way.  And even if you are a sociopath, the chances of the PAIN of the event outweighing the pleasure is statistically likely when you get your *bleep* carted off to jail and lose all of that "freedom" you speak of.

In many societies they have no problems harming others.  These things generally stem from the society (e.g. consider how Americans tend to treat animals compared to much of the rest of the world).  Ethics though are not limited to the violent intent you indicate here, and even it it were it would not qualify as these are typically "learned sentiments" and not innate to the human animal (the seek pleasure and avoid pain is though, but not with the particular definition you gave above).  Not sure what statistics you are looking at, but the ones I see seem to suggest that more people get away with being unethical than not, and regardless, with proper planning and execution such risks can reliably be muted.

I am no sociopath though.  I also have a weak spot for suffering and cannot stand to see it in others (whether innate or learned I do not know but I would not be unethical in the brutish way you seem to consider.

The greatest tyrants in history would pale beside the pursuits I would undertake.

Overconfident much?  You are forgetting that certain conditions need to exist for you to even have a chance of "ruling over others", and a person who writes for $3 per month on a forum is probably in the furthest position away from power that one could be.

I do often find myself being overconfident and have experienced both success and failure from it.  I haven't factored in any win/loss percents though to judge whether I would be better off to temper my confidence or not.  Don't mistake my deceleration of intent to indicate my degree of success in such pursuits, I am simply telling you how I would approach the situation if I knew that my actions carried no penalties.  Do you really see yourself in the low light as you ascribe to "a person who writes for $3 per month on a forum"?  I honestly see it as a quality -- a measure of the degree I will go to in order to pursue a goal.  Where you seem to suggest impotence I see it as dedication and perseverance.

Are you seriously saying you would play a video game and actively elect to be the assistant to a shopkeeper?  Me I would bash the shopkeepers skull in at the first opportunity in such a game and then set traps to slay my customers.

A video game is hardly a comparison to real life.  Plenty of people enjoy doing exactly what you speak of, under the condition that the situation isn't real.  They aren't real people with whole lives and families that you're polishing off, they are figments of fantasy.

There is no difference in the reality of the video game and the reality the true atheist should experience.  Neither one of them is any more or less real when considering one couldn't measure a difference in their persistence over the spam of existence.  You are talking like you fail to realize that they both have a permanent end (according to your atheist view that is).  I suppose you could only think you are an atheist though, much like the many people that attend church who think they are Christians.  I honestly think you are anti-religious and ascribe your 'faith' of atheism that you don't even seem to truly believe in yourself.  This is the reason I get so annoyed with atheist claiming "logic and reason" and here your arguments to me are based entirely on emotion and sentiment.  I honestly don't care what you believe, but when you ridicule and attack my beliefs, you had better take your own inventory first.
There are only 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Abrupt

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2012, 04:47:14 pm »
Without an ultimate judge as to the good of an action the action could never be considered good.

No.  An action is not good or bad because god "says so"; it could only be good or bad for some ultimate, unchanging reason, and that type of morality doesn't exist.  Religious morality isn't dependent on actual reasons why something is right or wrong, it's dependent on the whims of a supernatural entity.  And don't even try to tell me that your god doesn't change his mind, because that would be demonstrably false when referencing your holy book.

You have said nothing here, except to agree with me indirectly and further contend that even an eternal being couldn't decide this.  Are you now changing your argument to claim there is no such thing ever as 'good'?

I never said they should be "raping, murdering thieves" and I find it odd your inclination is to use emotional base imagery.

And yet you are quick to say how, as an atheist, you would be "worse than any tyrant in history"...how is that not "emotional base imagery"?  My statement was an interpretation of your opinions.

I suppose this depends on how we qualify a 'tyrant'.  To you that may simply be a pathetic rapist or murder or some other lowly thug.  To me a tyrant is one who seeks dominion and rule and control over others.  The imagery I invoke within myself when I say things like "worse than any tyrant in history" is actually a policy of control where the subjects voluntarily seek my rule (out of their own ignorance).  A good example of such a malicious and sinister method would be the healthcare bill passed by congress and signed into law by the President.  That is they type of tyranny I would attempt.  There would also be other measures of control where you gain power by getting others to perceive threats.  It is the old foolish trade off of "some of your freedom for my guarantee of your safety" that people have always so easily fallen for.  I am no artist at this and I know my declaration had a grand flare to it but that is the type of controls I would pursue (or hope I would be capable of devising, if that is I were an atheist).

it is all purely to enjoy this fleeting existence to the best that is possible.

Finally, an assumption you haven't fabricated.  This holds true for at least me.

What the heck is a fabricated assumption?  That doesn't even make sense, except in the form of some sort of testing analysis perhaps.

No action committed by the atheist would subject to any judgement, except by them.

Yes, because atheists are all hermits who live on deserted islands and never have to interact with another human being, ever.   ::)  Do you see the fallacy in what you are saying?

The fallacy is your own, actually.  The atheist does not (or should not) value the opinions of others as doing so makes you a subject to the other and that doesn't fit well within the atheist dogma.  Well I suppose you could align yourself beneath a more powerful individual in order to gain, but you would never do this simply to be submissive to others.  You seem to think that an atheist should be sensitive to the wishes of others and that is not logical at all.

The greatest human threat to the atheist (in a stable environment) would indeed by another atheist, the least threat would be a devoutly religious person (since the religious would be obvious and predictable).

Interesting.  I suppose I should keep one eye open when sleeping in bed next to my atheist husband then, huh?  And religious people are far from predictable.  One cannot always tell how far off the deep end a religious person is, because each individual crafts their own godly guidelines to abide by.

I don't know about your husband, but I already told you that I think "you only think" you are an atheist.  That is why I consider you a quasi atheist type.  If you were both true atheists, though, I would stand by my warning and I would elaborate but fear it would fall on deaf ears.  I will agree with you that the predictability of religious people cannot be certain and at times can be extreme or erratic, but this is never more than the amount that an unknown would be.  It is always better to have a partial blueprint than a complete mystery. 

If you are unbound by religion why do you struggle so in life?

Why in the world would you assume someone you've never met is struggling?  You know nothing about the real lives of anyone on here, atheist or not.

I don't use the word 'struggle' as you seem to use it (I think you think of it in a financial way or something but this is only speculation).  I said you were struggling because you waste effort here belaboring when it would never be something that a true atheist would do (I suppose one might, if it were a stepping stone to a greater pursuit, but then they would never go about it claiming to be an atheist in the first place and would likely only use it to gain a knowledge of something they find beneficial).

You want money why don't you claim what is yours by right of will?  Why choose to be as sheep among people when you describe yourself as a wolf?

The only money that is mine is the money I earn, win, or share.  And you are the one labeling people as wolves (when the label instead should be yours and yours alone).

You sure don't sound like an atheist using words like 'earn' and 'share'.  Everything belongs to the atheist because sheep can't own things.  I do not hide the fact that I am a wolf by nature, but a sheep in Christ.  I was never an atheist but I was an agnostic and as an agnostic I was infinitely more of an atheist as the atheist you claim to be.  Realize that my discussion with you isn't to throw ill will your way, but perhaps to throw a wrench in your cogs.  You seem to enjoy making your negative and mocking remarks at my faith and seem to consider yourself some expert on the truth it of when you haven't even begun to consider the depths of what you claim you are.  I would normally say do some soul searching but that would have no meaning to you so all I can say is what I did earlier and that is that you take your own inventory first before you try to take mine.
There are only 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary, and those who don't.

inertia4

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2012, 05:23:47 am »
I find it hard to believe in a fable. I know that people want to believe that there is more to life and death. But when the end comes, it's over.

falcon9

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2012, 12:53:50 pm »
I find it hard to believe in a fable. I know that people want to believe that there is more to life and death.



That want ultimately stems from fear.



But when the end comes, it's over. 



Physical life is certainly over when the body dies.  Anything beyond that, (either way), is speculative.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

robin1128

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2012, 02:42:26 pm »
yes very much so

falcon9

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2012, 02:44:34 pm »
yes very much so






What descriptive characteristics of such a 'deity', exactly do you 'believe' in?
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

rrflem4

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2012, 02:47:44 pm »
Yes. I believe in God. Thanks for asking.
Jesus is my Lord & Savior & Im proud of it!  :angel11:




falcon9

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2012, 03:29:24 pm »
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

sigmapi1501

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2012, 03:42:57 pm »
I do. At the very least I use it as Good Orderly Direction. (cliche acronym)

I don't believe in a man in the clouds, or the story of Jesus.  I don't believe if I pray for something it will happen.  I don't have any proof a God exists and I also know that I'm probably wrong. I don't believe God created human beings. I do believe in science and evolution.  The concept of heaven and hell amuses me and there are so many holes in what happens in heaven. (example, how old are you when you get there?)

But I have to admit that against all logic, I still can't help believe there is a higher power. In the end, it just could be complete narcissism that  I must create some significant reason that I am on Earth and that there must be some big meaning to my existence.

falcon9

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2012, 03:47:55 pm »
I do. At the very least I use it as Good Orderly Direction. (cliche acronym)

I don't believe in a man in the clouds, or the story of Jesus.  I don't believe if I pray for something it will happen.  I don't have any proof a God exists and I also know that I'm probably wrong. I don't believe God created human beings. I do believe in science and evolution.  The concept of heaven and hell amuses me and there are so many holes in what happens in heaven. (example, how old are you when you get there?)



Healthy skepticism in the face of irrationality is good.



But I have to admit that against all logic, I still can't help believe there is a higher power. In the end, it just could be complete narcissism that  I must create some significant reason that I am on Earth and that there must be some big meaning to my existence.





Conversely, it may be that it's up to each person to create their own meaning, (or not), rather than impute it to the 'invisible pink unicorn'.

One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Getinonthis

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Re: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2012, 04:02:47 pm »
Yes I can correspond to this post and say," My God is truly Good all the time."
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 04:05:20 pm by Getinonthis »
"Make the most of every opportunity"

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