This topic is locked, no replies allowed. Inaccurate or out-of-date info may be present.

  • Print

Topic: Thought Provoking  (Read 1679 times)

Garydh

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 778 (since 2011)
  • Thanked: 9x
Thought Provoking
« on: November 05, 2011, 11:04:46 am »
I had a really intersting thought just before I decided to post it on this forum. I know it was really thought provoking because it provked me to post this thought about a thought provoking thought, that now I have forgot. Go figure.

What thought provoking thoughts do you have?

Falconer02

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Gold Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 3106 (since 2009)
  • Thanked: 90x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2011, 01:04:50 pm »
Perhaps our existence is based upon the universe wanting itself to be self aware in some respect?

falcon9

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Platinum Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 9741 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 2x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2011, 06:32:14 pm »
Perhaps our existence is based upon the universe wanting itself to be self aware in some respect?


A minor quibble with the phrasing; how can something which lacks self-awareness, (implied due to what is 'wanted'), have the awareness to want self-awareness? (or, "want" anything, for that matter?)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 06:34:12 pm by falcon9 »
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Abrupt

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Silver Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1034 (since 2011)
  • Thanked: 1x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2011, 08:32:03 pm »
Perhaps our existence is based upon the universe wanting itself to be self aware in some respect?


A minor quibble with the phrasing; how can something which lacks self-awareness, (implied due to what is 'wanted'), have the awareness to want self-awareness? (or, "want" anything, for that matter?)

I thought he was playing with speech a bit and using a form of 'want' in 'wanting' such as is used when one says "trees want to fall the way they are leaning" or "iron wants to rust in the elements".  His post sounded slight for him and seeing it was posted under "thought provoking" I figured it more of a puzzle of speech to be carved out...or am I just assuming strangely today lol?
There are only 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary, and those who don't.

falcon9

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Platinum Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 9741 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 2x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2011, 08:42:32 pm »
Perhaps our existence is based upon the universe wanting itself to be self aware in some respect?


A minor quibble with the phrasing; how can something which lacks self-awareness, (implied due to what is 'wanted'), have the awareness to want self-awareness? (or, "want" anything, for that matter?)

I thought he was playing with speech a bit and using a form of 'want' in 'wanting' such as is used when one says "trees want to fall the way they are leaning" or "iron wants to rust in the elements".  His post sounded slight for him and seeing it was posted under "thought provoking" I figured it more of a puzzle of speech to be carved out...or am I just assuming strangely today lol?


The thread and post were intended to be thought-provoking at least and his was, at least that.  At most, it could provoke a thread about awareness, self-awareness and whether so-called 'inanimates' possess any degree of awareness.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Falconer02

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Gold Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 3106 (since 2009)
  • Thanked: 90x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2011, 10:30:34 pm »
Quote
His post sounded slight for him and seeing it was posted under "thought provoking" I figured it more of a puzzle of speech to be carved out...or am I just assuming strangely today lol?

No, that's exactly it actually! Good shot!

Quote
The thread and post were intended to be thought-provoking at least and his was, at least that.  At most, it could provoke a thread about awareness, self-awareness and whether so-called 'inanimates' possess any degree of awareness.

Well I just threw out something to add to the thread really. I honestly hadn't thought it through enough to actually debate it in a factual/realsitic sense. It was just some speculative issue the likes of which Carl Sagan would probably say if he were tired and on some sort of drug. "Maybe time as we know it is just...like...the multiverses rubbing up against each other, maaaan!"

« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 12:04:26 am by Falconer02 »

falcon9

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Platinum Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 9741 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 2x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2011, 03:00:46 am »
Well I just threw out something to add to the thread really. I honestly hadn't thought it through enough to actually debate it in a factual/realsitic sense. It was just some speculative issue the likes of which Carl Sagan would probably say if he were tired and on some sort of drug. "Maybe time as we know it is just...like...the multiverses rubbing up against each other, maaaan!"


Perhaps our existence is based upon the universe wanting itself to be self aware in some respect?


It might be somewhat of a bummer if our existence was ultimately to be remote sensors for something that lacks awareness.  Something else along those lines suddenly occurs; what could happen if we had conscious moment-to-moment awareness all the time?
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Abrupt

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Silver Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1034 (since 2011)
  • Thanked: 1x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2011, 08:44:06 am »
I wonder if we had constant moment to moment awareness if we could even function as we do now.  I think there would be sensory overload or a white noise masking effect, and although the experience could be more enjoyable to most initially I think it would be subdued over time.  Stimulation/appreciation/awareness is best served as a periodic sample or a contradiction of the norm.  I don't just mean in a "familiarity breeds contempt" sort of way either, even though most do realize the treat a few times a year tastes better than the treat twice a day.  I know everyone seems to think a bit different but that is sort of how I feel it would work with me. 

I have developed a habit where I can work on problems in the background of my mind where I can be always aware of them and apply a bit of conscious thought to solving them but basically I keep them in a 'foggy' state and revisit with deliberate dedication periodically.  If I focus on them too closely I lose the background solving automation and have to do it all deliberately.  If I do it just right though the answer is solved for me and I can realize it almost as if it were given to me by another but since it is from my thoughts it isn't foreign and the solution (whether correct or incorrect) is completely natural to my understanding and thinking and required as much active thought as typing would to an experienced typist.  I realize this isn't a direct contradiction to moment to moment but it is given as an example of something I couldn't do moment to moment and still manage other serious thoughts moment to moment.
There are only 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary, and those who don't.

falcon9

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Platinum Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 9741 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 2x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2011, 12:42:50 pm »
I wonder if we had constant moment to moment awareness if we could even function as we do now.  I think there would be sensory overload or a white noise masking effect, and although the experience could be more enjoyable to most initially I think it would be subdued over time.  Stimulation/appreciation/awareness is best served as a periodic sample or a contradiction of the norm.  I don't just mean in a "familiarity breeds contempt" sort of way either, even though most do realize the treat a few times a year tastes better than the treat twice a day.  I know everyone seems to think a bit different but that is sort of how I feel it would work with me. 


Although I tend to agree with the sensory overload possibility mentioned, there may have been somewhat of a misnomer in the caveat of "conscious moment-to-moment awaress".  That is, such moments could be either discreet and connected, (as close to continuously aware as possible), discreet and unconnected, (being consciously aware of separate moments which aren't directly connected), or some sort of mixture of the two.  The first probably would lead to sensory overload, (or at least, insomnia), although that would depend upon how much input overloads an individual consciousness.  The second possibility could be covered by shifting some awareness to the background, as mentioned below.  This would include both semi-conscious awareness and subconcious awareness, (but not unawareness, by definition).  The third possibility is likely the one most people use on a daily basis; a mixture of connected and disconnected moments of awareness, (with aspects of either manifesting to varying degrees).



I have developed a habit where I can work on problems in the background of my mind where I can be always aware of them and apply a bit of conscious thought to solving them but basically I keep them in a 'foggy' state and revisit with deliberate dedication periodically.  If I focus on them too closely I lose the background solving automation and have to do it all deliberately.  If I do it just right though the answer is solved for me and I can realize it almost as if it were given to me by another but since it is from my thoughts it isn't foreign and the solution (whether correct or incorrect) is completely natural to my understanding and thinking and required as much active thought as typing would to an experienced typist.  I realize this isn't a direct contradiction to moment to moment but it is given as an example of something I couldn't do moment to moment and still manage other serious thoughts moment to moment.


Most likely, few, (if anyone), maintains a constant and continuous moment-to-moment conscious awareness.  It is possible that this could be managed to an extent from time to time, (discontinuously), however.  For instance, we possess certain autonomic functions, (heartbeat, breathing and other internal biological functions), of which we normally aren't aware of on a conscious and moment-to-moment basis.  That's probably a good thing, otherwise we'd likely to overwhelmed by purely 'system maintenence' functions.  Being consciously aware of the _process_ of internal thought is another matter.  This differs from being aware that one has thoughts and may be more than a recursive awareness of physical synoptic functions.  Moreover, conscious awareness can, (and does), extend beyond an awareness of 'self' to at least a partial awareness of that which is not of the 'self', (external environment, other people and other concepts for instance).  Such externally-directed awareness varies in degree and one could posit the aforementioned sensory overload in this regard as well.



One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Falconer02

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Gold Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 3106 (since 2009)
  • Thanked: 90x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2011, 08:55:07 pm »
Quote
It might be somewhat of a bummer if our existence was ultimately to be remote sensors for something that lacks awareness.  Something else along those lines suddenly occurs; what could happen if we had conscious moment-to-moment awareness all the time?

I suppose so. A scout for the blind could be interpreted either way. But moment-to-moment awareness? What you and Abrupt have already said IS extremely fascinating! I'd comment now, but I'm far too tired and may do so later when I hop back on the forum.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 08:57:20 pm by Falconer02 »

falcon9

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Platinum Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 9741 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 2x
Re: Thought Provoking
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2011, 10:01:20 pm »
Quote
It might be somewhat of a bummer if our existence was ultimately to be remote sensors for something that lacks awareness.  Something else along those lines suddenly occurs; what could happen if we had conscious moment-to-moment awareness all the time?

I suppose so. A scout for the blind could be interpreted either way.


Different starting premises would ge engendered, depending upon which interpretation were used.  In one scenario, we're remote sensors for a 'blind', (not aware), universe and that would implicitly mean a universe which wouldn't know what's going on without limited human sensory data?  In another scenario, such a universe is 'blind' in that it may have some form of awareness which is not based upon physical sensor input.  It may be that you had even more scenarios in mind when you mentioned interpretations.


But moment-to-moment awareness? What you and Abrupt have already said IS extremely fascinating! I'd comment now, but I'm far too tired and may do so later when I hop back on the forum.


I'd be interested in Abrupt's additional perspective on the subject as well.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 10:03:17 pm by falcon9 »
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

  • Print
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
5 Replies
2503 Views
Last post April 24, 2009, 10:35:37 am
by mlainez
0 Replies
1177 Views
Last post April 25, 2009, 06:16:26 am
by mc1962
0 Replies
1331 Views
Last post April 26, 2009, 12:33:11 am
by mc1962
0 Replies
1290 Views
Last post April 27, 2009, 12:28:38 am
by mc1962
7 Replies
1234 Views
Last post December 06, 2014, 09:47:51 am
by ccandpam