Faith

[SurveyMack10]

OBVIOUSLY those were opinions...

To clarify a distinctive difference there; those opinions were unsubstantiated personal preferences reflecting a subjective bias.

Hence the intro to the statement being "I have found..."
When did I ever say that everything that comes out of my mouth is a proven fact?

You didn't, which is why your empty assertions were challenged, (that is, an opportunity to support them was presented but, missed).

Every single person in this world has opinons that others disagree with- that's LIFE. Just because you do not agree with my opinions, that does not make them lies or fabrications as you like to put it.

More accurately, I disagreed/dissented with your unsupported opinions and that too is life, (that is, the lack of evidence for or, reasoning underlying such "opinions" - not unreasoned personal biases).

However, they are not unsupported as I just told you I drew them from personal experience.

Unless your "personal experience" consists of some unspecified reasoning process or observational evidence, the support is flimsy.

Yes, they are substantiated thank you for noting that as well (the prove provided was that they are from personal experience)

No, you haven't supported them with either the reasoning process or, observational evidence, (as opposed to preferential bias), which underlies such "opinions".  Therefore, they remain unsubstantiated thusfar.

Obviously the statement we are talking about is a personal opinion, I  never said it was not. Personal opinions reflect personal bias, so yes I guess that is a good observation of the obvious on your part...I'm not sure what point you are making with this?

Your concession of the point made is sufficient to show your admission of making unsubstantiated assertions framed as "opinions".

Show what I dodged please since you feel so strongly about it instead of just making unsubstantiated claims.

Looking upthread, it can be seen that you've dodged, (failed to answer contextual challenges to your assertions; namely that "atheism is a belief system" in this instance).

If I DID leave something unanswered and within the same response said "I agree to disagree"  then it definitely is not considered a dodge ...

It may not be considered to be a dodge _by you_ however, since it failed to answer the challenge made to your assertion, it definitely WAS a dodging of that challenge.

[/quote]
So would I be correct in summarizing you responses as the following?:
My opinions hold no bearing in any debate. Every in a debate you speak with no bias whatsoever. You claim I made a dodge yet refuse to reproduce it. And any opinion I have that you disagree with will be considered unsubstantiated from here on out?

[SurveyMack10]

The reply of "dodging" was not meant as a rude one. However, I was busy with schoolwork and wanted to let you know that you ignored the content of my post.

The excuse for the false accusation you made is rejected as a non sequitur.

I made no excuse and your rejection is noted as reference to the condescending "uppity" attitude you regularly display.

[falcon9]

"as if to imply that there are _religious_ belief systems which do not rely upon faith "--this is where you implied that when I said belief system I was referring to those only involving religion ...


The comment didn't imply "only", it merely included your implication that atheism was a belief system which relied upon some unspecified 'faith'.

I'm sorry but that is simply not true.

Yes, it is, as shown by the remarks actually made, (not the inaccurate interpretations you made).

I said "belief systems"
You respdonded with "religious belief systems"


No, as the quoted text shows, I responded with "... as if to imply ...", which means your characterization of atheism as a belief system was apparently intended to be conflated with other belief systems, (including religious ones).  Such an implied conflation constitutes a false dichotomy.

you implied that I was referring to religious belief systems only in my statement when I definitely was not, so I told you that is not at all what I meant..and it STILL is not what I meant.

The context of the discussion up to that point had been religious belief systems, (specifically, your particular belief system requiring "faith" and your subsequent failed attempts to conflate that with atheism as a belief system).  As such, the inference was contextualy-based.

You asked me to show a religious belief system that did not rely on faith whenever I never even claimed that one existed

That's false.  I requested that you name a belief system, (not specifically a "religious" belief system), which did not rely upon faith.  You could have named "zen", for instance and that would have qualified as an answer.

[SurveyMack10]

"as if to imply that there are _religious_ belief systems which do not rely upon faith "--this is where you implied that when I said belief system I was referring to those only involving religion ...


The comment didn't imply "only", it merely included your implication that atheism was a belief system which relied upon some unspecified 'faith'.

I'm sorry but that is simply not true.

Yes, it is, as shown by the remarks actually made, (not the inaccurate interpretations you made).

I said "belief systems"
You respdonded with "religious belief systems"


No, as the quoted text shows, I responded with "... as if to imply ...", which means your characterization of atheism as a belief system was apparently intended to be conflated with other belief systems, (including religious ones).  Such an implied conflation constitutes a false dichotomy.

you implied that I was referring to religious belief systems only in my statement when I definitely was not, so I told you that is not at all what I meant..and it STILL is not what I meant.

The context of the discussion up to that point had been religious belief systems, (specifically, your particular belief system requiring "faith" and your subsequent failed attempts to conflate that with atheism as a belief system).  As such, the inference was contextualy-based.

You asked me to show a religious belief system that did not rely on faith whenever I never even claimed that one existed

That's false.  I requested that you name a belief system, (not specifically a "religious" belief system), which did not rely upon faith.  You could have named "zen", for instance and that would have qualified as an answer.

Hmm, guess your repeated claim of religious belief systems relying on faith (which no one every claimed otherwise) caused me to misinterpret your request. I apologize and did not realize what you were asking. These miscommunications happen in life, especially when typing rather than talking.

[falcon9]

So would I be correct in summarizing you responses as the following?

No.

My opinions hold no bearing in any debate.

Not precisely; no one's empty opinion holds weight in a debate however, opinions supported by something more substantial than personal bias or preferences, (like a line of reasoning underlying them or, objective observational _evidence_ for instance), would.

Every in a debate you speak with no bias whatsoever.

No such claim has ever been asserted, (except by you, just then).  My "bias", (or personal preference), is to reject unsubstantiated claims - whether they are religious or non-religious ones.  I've endeavored to support any such 'opinion' on those matters with substantiating lines of reasoning and observational evidence, (rather than a simplified 'xtians smell bad' or 'xtians are idiots' name-calling).

You claim I made a dodge yet refuse to reproduce it.

If you had not dodged the challenge to your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", the answer would be available for requoting.  How can a missing answer be reproduced?

And any opinion I have that you disagree with will be considered unsubstantiated from here on out?

More precisely, any _unsubstantiated_ opinion you have in response to contextual points raised isn't going to be considered as a supported opinion.

[falcon9]

The reply of "dodging" was not meant as a rude one. However, I was busy with schoolwork and wanted to let you know that you ignored the content of my post.

The excuse for the false accusation you made is rejected as a non sequitur.

I made no excuse

Your excuse was quoted above, following your "However".

... and your rejection is noted as reference to the condescending "uppity" attitude you regularly display.

The rejection wasn't condescending simply because you said it was; it was a rejection of your excuse.  Now this comment: your personal bias is reflected by your opinion that I'm "condescending", "uppity" and "regularly display" such attitudes is disregarded as empty opinion.

[SurveyMack10]

"If you had not dodged the challenge to your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", the answer would be available for requoting.  How can a missing answer be reproduced?"

This would be reproduced by showing your request, then showing my response to the request and thereby proving that I dodged the challenge.






Also,
so in every debate is everyone supposed to speak with no bias if playing by your rules?

[falcon9]

Hmm, guess your repeated claim of religious belief systems relying on faith (which no one every claimed otherwise) caused me to misinterpret your request. I apologize and did not realize what you were asking. These miscommunications happen in life, especially when typing rather than talking.

Now your example of an attempt to be condescending isn't nearly as ambiguous as the ones you claimed I'd made.  Bravo.

[falcon9]

"If you had not dodged the challenge to your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", the answer would be available for requoting.  How can a missing answer be reproduced?"

This would be reproduced by showing your request, then showing my response to the request and thereby proving that I dodged the challenge.

I can certainly requote the original challenge to your asserted unsported claim that "atheism is a belief system" however, it remains problematic to show a lack of evidence ... I'll give it a try nonethless:

Message ID: 436782
Message ID: 436777
Message ID: 436763
Message ID: 436761
Message ID: 436750
Message ID: 436733
Message ID: 436682
Message ID: 436652
Message ID: 436285
Message ID: 436225
Message ID: 436198
Message ID: 435778
Message ID: 435684
Message ID: 435420
Message ID: 435305
Message ID: 435180
Message ID: 435172 - "I don't know how not recalling what I myself wrote was relevant as I asked you what your challenge was not what I wrote.
Anyway, you challenged Webster not me."



All of the above referenced message IDs contain contextual quotes of the unanswered challenge to your asserted claim that "atheism is a belief system".  There are more message IDs which followed the initial challenge however, if seventeen of them isn't a sufficient cross-section showing your failure to substantiate your claim thusfar.  Since the message IDs presented as evidence of a lack span over a week's worth of posted exchanges, ample opportunity existed for you to not dodge as there was to dodge more than 17 times.

[SurveyMack10]

"If you had not dodged the challenge to your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", the answer would be available for requoting.  How can a missing answer be reproduced?"

This would be reproduced by showing your request, then showing my response to the request and thereby proving that I dodged the challenge.

I can certainly requote the original challenge to your asserted unsported claim that "atheism is a belief system" however, it remains problematic to show a lack of evidence ... I'll give it a try nonethless:

Message ID: 436782
Message ID: 436777
Message ID: 436763
Message ID: 436761
Message ID: 436750
Message ID: 436733
Message ID: 436682
Message ID: 436652
Message ID: 436285
Message ID: 436225
Message ID: 436198
Message ID: 435778
Message ID: 435684
Message ID: 435420
Message ID: 435305
Message ID: 435180
Message ID: 435172 - "I don't know how not recalling what I myself wrote was relevant as I asked you what your challenge was not what I wrote.
Anyway, you challenged Webster not me."



All of the above referenced message IDs contain contextual quotes of the unanswered challenge to your asserted claim that "atheism is a belief system".  There are more message IDs which followed the initial challenge however, if seventeen of them isn't a sufficient cross-section showing your failure to substantiate your claim thusfar.  Since the message IDs presented as evidence of a lack span over a week's worth of posted exchanges, ample opportunity existed for you to not dodge as there was to dodge more than 17 times.

I was answering the challenge of atheism being a belief system the ENTIRE time, that is the issue we have been discussing THROUGHOUT

[falcon9]

"If you had not dodged the challenge to your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", the answer would be available for requoting.  How can a missing answer be reproduced?"

This would be reproduced by showing your request, then showing my response to the request and thereby proving that I dodged the challenge.

I can certainly requote the original challenge to your asserted unsported claim that "atheism is a belief system" however, it remains problematic to show a lack of evidence ... I'll give it a try nonethless:

Message ID: 436782
Message ID: 436777
Message ID: 436763
Message ID: 436761
Message ID: 436750
Message ID: 436733
Message ID: 436682
Message ID: 436652
Message ID: 436285
Message ID: 436225
Message ID: 436198
Message ID: 435778
Message ID: 435684
Message ID: 435420
Message ID: 435305
Message ID: 435180
Message ID: 435172 - "I don't know how not recalling what I myself wrote was relevant as I asked you what your challenge was not what I wrote.
Anyway, you challenged Webster not me."



All of the above referenced message IDs contain contextual quotes of the unanswered challenge to your asserted claim that "atheism is a belief system".  There are more message IDs which followed the initial challenge however, if seventeen of them isn't a sufficient cross-section showing your failure to substantiate your claim thusfar.  Since the message IDs presented as evidence of a lack span over a week's worth of posted exchanges, ample opportunity existed for you to not dodge as there was to dodge more than 17 times.

I was answering the challenge of atheism being a belief system the ENTIRE time, that is the issue we have been discussing THROUGHOUT

Really?  Please reproduce any 'answers', (rather than divergent non-answers), which actually supported your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", (by the way, the dictionary reference didn't support your claim - what else can you refer to?)  Thanks in advance.

[SurveyMack10]

"If you had not dodged the challenge to your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", the answer would be available for requoting.  How can a missing answer be reproduced?"

This would be reproduced by showing your request, then showing my response to the request and thereby proving that I dodged the challenge.

I can certainly requote the original challenge to your asserted unsported claim that "atheism is a belief system" however, it remains problematic to show a lack of evidence ... I'll give it a try nonethless:

Message ID: 436782
Message ID: 436777
Message ID: 436763
Message ID: 436761
Message ID: 436750
Message ID: 436733
Message ID: 436682
Message ID: 436652
Message ID: 436285
Message ID: 436225
Message ID: 436198
Message ID: 435778
Message ID: 435684
Message ID: 435420
Message ID: 435305
Message ID: 435180
Message ID: 435172 - "I don't know how not recalling what I myself wrote was relevant as I asked you what your challenge was not what I wrote.
Anyway, you challenged Webster not me."



All of the above referenced message IDs contain contextual quotes of the unanswered challenge to your asserted claim that "atheism is a belief system".  There are more message IDs which followed the initial challenge however, if seventeen of them isn't a sufficient cross-section showing your failure to substantiate your claim thusfar.  Since the message IDs presented as evidence of a lack span over a week's worth of posted exchanges, ample opportunity existed for you to not dodge as there was to dodge more than 17 times.

I was answering the challenge of atheism being a belief system the ENTIRE time, that is the issue we have been discussing THROUGHOUT

Really?  Please reproduce any 'answers', (rather than divergent non-answers), which actually supported your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", (by the way, the dictionary reference didn't support your claim - what else can you refer to?)  Thanks in advance.

You just proved that no matter what I reproduce you're going to say it doesn't support my claim just because you do not agree with it which makes no sense whatsoever as your opinion is not at all fact.

[SurveyMack10]

"If you had not dodged the challenge to your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", the answer would be available for requoting.  How can a missing answer be reproduced?"

This would be reproduced by showing your request, then showing my response to the request and thereby proving that I dodged the challenge.

I can certainly requote the original challenge to your asserted unsported claim that "atheism is a belief system" however, it remains problematic to show a lack of evidence ... I'll give it a try nonethless:

Message ID: 436782
Message ID: 436777
Message ID: 436763
Message ID: 436761
Message ID: 436750
Message ID: 436733
Message ID: 436682
Message ID: 436652
Message ID: 436285
Message ID: 436225
Message ID: 436198
Message ID: 435778
Message ID: 435684
Message ID: 435420
Message ID: 435305
Message ID: 435180
Message ID: 435172 - "I don't know how not recalling what I myself wrote was relevant as I asked you what your challenge was not what I wrote.
Anyway, you challenged Webster not me."



All of the above referenced message IDs contain contextual quotes of the unanswered challenge to your asserted claim that "atheism is a belief system".  There are more message IDs which followed the initial challenge however, if seventeen of them isn't a sufficient cross-section showing your failure to substantiate your claim thusfar.  Since the message IDs presented as evidence of a lack span over a week's worth of posted exchanges, ample opportunity existed for you to not dodge as there was to dodge more than 17 times.

I was answering the challenge of atheism being a belief system the ENTIRE time, that is the issue we have been discussing THROUGHOUT

Really?  Please reproduce any 'answers', (rather than divergent non-answers), which actually supported your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", (by the way, the dictionary reference didn't support your claim - what else can you refer to?)  Thanks in advance.

&& these are just the 1st 15 messages where I am shown discussing atheism as a belief system

Message ID: 433627
Message ID: 433639
Message ID: 433648
Message ID: 433665
Message ID: 433717
Message ID: 433720
Message ID: 434018
Message ID: 434064
Message ID: 434079
Message ID: 434196
Message ID: 434500
Message ID: 434551
Message ID: 434595
Message ID: 434704
Message ID: 435172

[falcon9]

Please reproduce any 'answers', (rather than divergent non-answers), which actually supported your assertion that "atheism is a belief system", (by the way, the dictionary reference didn't support your claim - what else can you refer to?)  Thanks in advance.

You just proved that no matter what I reproduce you're going to say it doesn't support my claim just because you do not agree with it which makes no sense whatsoever as your opinion is not at all fact.

A request that you reproduce any "answers" which supported your assertion that "atheism is a belief system" does not constitute a dismissal in advance, (despite the qualifier that you refrain from non-answers which do not support your assertion since, if there were any they did, they'd refute my challenge).

[falcon9]

these are just the 1st 15 messages where I am shown discussing atheism as a belief system

Message ID: 433627

Message ID: 433627
on: October 17, 2011, 03:01:40 pm

"Absolutely! Atheism is definitely a belief system within itself, you are totally right....Agnostics are the only ones who haven't committed to a belief system."

Merely agreeing with another xtian, sans anything other than restating your unsupported assertion, does not constitute supporting your assertion.

Message ID: 433639 - "Do you not believe that all occurences can be explained by science?

That "answer" was a divergent question and did not support your assertion.

Message ID: 433648 - "Are you admitting that there are things that science cannot explain?"

That "answer" was a divergent question and did not support your assertion.

Message ID: 433665 - "When did I try to convince you that it should be applied to "imagined dieties?" I merely asked a yes or no question ...?"

That "answer" was a divergent question and did not support your assertion.

Message ID: 433717 - "I was actually going to ask if you think that science will EVENTUALLY explain every single thing that has ever occured and will ever occur. However, according to you that is not what I was going to ask."

That snide remark did not support your assertion that atheism is a belief system.  By now, others can observe a distinctive pattern in the message IDs you choose to alledgedly support your assertion ... namely, that they don't.  I'll quote one more, your second to last reference to message ID 434704 -

"Please show where you challenged my claim (this is not the same thing as denying the definition of atheism)"

That request was met and making it did not support your asserted claim.  Doubtless, the remaining message IDs are more along the same lines, (if not, please reproduce a quote from them which supports your assertion unless the message IDs you referenced do not do so).  You did however, provide 15 additional examples of your _Not_ supporting your assertion, (rather than "discussing atheism", which was not the challenge; that challenge was to reproduce quotes of yours supporting your asserted claim that "atheism is a belief system").

Message ID: 433720
Message ID: 434018
Message ID: 434064
Message ID: 434079
Message ID: 434196
Message ID: 434500
Message ID: 434551
Message ID: 434595
Message ID: 434704
Message ID: 435172