Which bible do you Read?

[JediJohnnie]

I think part of the problem people have is they think of God gleefully striking down unbelievers and casting them into Hell.That isn't the case at all.God is not willing that even ONE soul should be lost.It is an act of justice that mandates the wrath of God.

I think there is something of a misconception about Hell.People tend to think people simply "burn in Hell" at the same rate or level.But again,God is always just and merciful.The Bible talks about different levels of reward and so are there different degrees of punishment.An atheist,for example who is generally a "good" person,will still have to suffer for their sins,because they had not accepted the Grace of Jesus Christ's Atonement for their sins.However I'm sure the suffering of someone who committed "minor" infractions will be nothing when compared to the suffering of someone like Hitler,who caused the death of millions and the suffering of many millions more.

The fact is ultimately God gives us what we want.He ratifies whatever choice we make here and now,either to accept & embrace Him,or to shun and distance ourselves from Him.God will not force us into a relationship with His Son.He gave us free will to choose-even if it's the wrong choice!

And I'm sure I sound like a broken record,but it's not a choice based on blind faith.The Bible has valid historic,scientific and archaeological  evidence. The problem is if you've already made up your mind to reject those proofs,there's little point in trying to convince you.The choice has been made.

[Falconer02]

It isn't a choice of obey him or suffer eternally, you are quite mistaken there.

How so? I fail to see any answers within the example. Remember-- your god is all-knowing and omnipotent. Apply that attribute to the parent. Unless the parent is capable of error, the example is not holding up.

Could Hitler have been saved?  Yes,

Did the Jewish people burned in the gas chambers not go to heaven? I don't know.

You really don't see any problem with what you're saying here? You don't question your own gods moral sense? You're saying Hitler can be saved, but you don't know if Jews can be. That's just...insanely evil.

I 'want' to believe a path of salvation was available to them but I have nothing supporting that desire.

So it's possible that you willingly follow an evil god.

My point was that you put forth many arguments against the bible and use analogies of the bible that are fallacious because of your confused understanding.  Yet you posted a quote referencing critical thinking skills yet you fully fail to use the same skills to realize that your assumptions are false.  You try to get me to defend a position I don't believe and one that is easily dismissed with a little 'critical thinking' and investigation.

How are my assumptions false? Just because you don;t know the answers and therefore they just are?

[Falconer02]

Ahhh JediJohnnie...the man with a thousand things to say and nothing to back them up.

People tend to think people simply "burn in Hell" at the same rate or level.But again,God is always just and merciful

A just and merciful god wouldn't allow for a hell, dude. It's not that hard to figure out.

The fact is ultimately God gives us what we want.He ratifies whatever choice we make here and now,either to accept & embrace Him,or to shun and distance ourselves from Him.God will not force us into a relationship with His Son.He gave us free will to choose-even if it's the wrong choice!

But he created us and he is all-knowing. So he knows what's going to go down in the future for everyone. How is mankind not playing with a stacked deck from a jerk-dealer?

And I'm sure I sound like a broken record,but it's not a choice based on blind faith.The Bible has valid historic,scientific and archaeological  evidence. The problem is if you've already made up your mind to reject those proofs,there's little point in trying to convince you.The choice has been made.

Really? Please, show us some legitimate proofs that have survived historic, scientific, and archaeological scrutiny from the millions of scientists around the world who document these things. Remember, no creationist sites or articles because those are furthest from scientific. I'll put my skepticism level on "low" just for you!

[JediJohnnie]

Now,now,Let's not be unkind,Falcie baby! I dig your brand of over analysis ad-nauseum.I really do.

"A just and merciful god wouldn't allow for a hell, dude. It's not that hard to figure out."

So I guess you're gonna tell me a just and merciful society doesn't have prisons to punish law breakers?Doesn't the fact that He's All Knowing give Him a bit more perspective on dealing out punishments?


"But he created us and he is all-knowing. So he knows what's going to go down in the future for everyone. How is mankind not playing with a stacked deck from a jerk-dealer?"

The fact that He gives us free will shows that we're not playing with a stacked deck,Doesn't it?

"Really? Please, show us some proofs that have survived historic, scientific, and archaeological scrutiny from the millions of scientists around the world who document these things. I'll put my skepticism level on "low" just for you!"

I'm sure I don't have to,as I'm aware you've already got several Christian research facts memorised and readily dismiss them.It's not up to me to convince you,anymore than you can convince me that the "Big Bang" is any more than a dreamed up theory.

[JediJohnnie]

To not insult the intelligence of "others" this thread is not directed to those that have an issue with the Bible
This thread is for those who Enjoy reading the bible.

Good luck with that!

[Falconer02]

So I guess you're gonna tell me a just and merciful society doesn't have prisons to punish law breakers?

We punish people to eternal torture for finite and petty crimes? And because we didn't know or love the judge?

Doesn't the fact that He's All Knowing give Him a bit more perspective on dealing out punishments

Above that it makes him malevolent.

The fact that He gives us free will shows that we're not playing with a stacked deck,Doesn't it?

Christians don't have free will because you have a god that knows everything already. It's a contradiction and your free will is an illusion because of that. When all things are inevitable, it's fatalism. Christians are inherently fatalists due to your gods power.

I'm sure I don't have to,as I'm aware you've already got several Christian research facts memorised and readily dismiss them

Because those 'facts' are constantly being proven to be false information and blatant lies because of what reality shows.

It's not up to me to convince you,anymore than you can convince me that the "Big Bang" is any more than a dreamed up theory.

Not dreamed up. You can see it through physical means. Here-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WMAP_2010.png Cosmic Background Radiation ftw
Here's an elementary explanation of how it went down as far as our research has taken us-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PqJ2eEzD3o (7:20)
It also has a richly documented history...but it's not up to me to convince you. I've already done the research and have already proved your ignorance and/or naivety towards the subject.

[Abrupt]

How so? I fail to see any answers within the example. Remember-- your god is all-knowing and omnipotent. Apply that attribute to the parent. Unless the parent is capable of error, the example is not holding up.

I said that your assumption that if you do not obey God you will burn in hell for all eternity is wrong.  I didn't give you any more of an answer than that, for you could research it readily with the use of concordances and lexicons as I already mentioned.  Any arguments you make based upon 'burning in hell for all eternity' are irrelevant to me and unless you research deeper you will likely not understand why.

You really don't see any problem with what you're saying here? You don't question your own gods moral sense? You're saying Hitler can be saved, but you don't know if Jews can be. That's just...insanely evil.

So it's possible that you willingly follow an evil god.

I never said that I didn't know if Jews could be saved as that was not what you asked me.  I know quite well that Jews can be saved.  Are you intentionally trying to twist words here or did you make a mistake based on what you thought you had asked instead of what you actually asked.  I don't try to play games with words I try to give my honest answers for honest questions and I answered what you asked.  Please review your question exactly as it appears.

How are my assumptions false? Just because you don;t know the answers and therefore they just are?

See my first reply above for this.  Those are the assumptions I am referring to and I thought that was fairly clear.  I have my answers but they were from my studies and so I will not put them out there.  I am no theologian and I do not have authority to instruct but I feel perfectly fine with general discussion in this matter.  I have studied the Bible though and that entails a lot more than simply reading it and assuming the words parallel their current meanings. 

I don't know you very well and haven't read many of your posts and I cannot tell if you are trying to be intentionally hostile or if you honestly want to debate and this is your style.   I will assume the later but you can correct me if I am wrong so that I will not waste either of our time with further discussion.

[jcribb16]

Quote
Could Hitler have been saved?  Yes,
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Did the Jewish people burned in the gas chambers not go to heaven? I don't know.
Quote
You really don't see any problem with what you're saying here? You don't question your own gods moral sense? You're saying Hitler can be saved, but you don't know if Jews can be. That's just...insanely evil.

Jews who believed in Christ, whether they were or were not burned in the gas chambers, will spend eternity in Heaven.   A very good read on this is "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boom."  She lived during the Hitler reign, in Holland, and ended up in a concentration camp.  She and her family, before this, had built a hidden door to a room in one of the walls of their house.  Jews would hide in that hidden room and then would be smuggled out to other places of hiding to try and keep them safe.  The Ten Boom's were caught (set up, actually) and taken to Germany eventually.  However, the hidden room was never found even though Hitler's men practically tore the house up looking for hiding places.  Corrie lived and was freed, but lost members of her family who died in the camps.  There were others who they knew had to go to the chambers.  Then, with others helping her, Corrie wrote this true story and within the story, she gives account of several things that happened for the better that she knew were direct answers from God, through prayer.

[Getinonthis]

Hi everyone,

Christians don't have free will because you have a god that knows everything already. It's a contradiction and your free will is an illusion because of that. When all things are inevitable, it's fatalism. Christians are inherently fatalists due to your gods power.

Many people disagree, with the bible not because they don't understand it but due to it's requirements, "Obedience."
This comes as an attack against the world idea of "Free Will" (desire to appease the flesh (sin), and do all that which is against the will of God)
Because of this many have relinquished the thought of living to please a real God, which is the very reason why we were created (Isaiah 43:7), God made man/us for his glory and not for our own. How can this realization make us fatalist?

                                                              Free will simply is this

A young boy and his friend were bike riding on the sidewalk; the young boy eventually stopped and said, "I can't go beyond this point. I can ride between point A and point B only." Another replied; I forgot, "his mom said not to go beyond this point," so they turned back and rode with him. during this time they had no adult supervision yet this child realized that as long as he adheres to his mother's rules he'll be able to ride as much as he wants/desire/will to his heart's content (Free Will.)

Jesus also said in John14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
"Albert Barnes" shares that: The evidence which we have that a child loves its parents is when that child is willing, without hesitation, gainsaying, or murmuring, to do all that the parent requires him to do.
Are we fatalist for choosing to be obedient, to put God above self, and choose to depart from a life of sin that would give us a destination called HELL? Rhetorically speaking are we powerless, or is this our personal choice to do so?

In Luke 23:42 THE THIEF said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Did he give up his "free will," or did he come to a realization that the path he chose which had brought him to the death penalty he was now facing was not his only alternative (Option/Choice?)
Most of us once took the same path you're on, but freely/willingly we have now chosen to do differently, freely you've also chosen to do otherwise. The choice that you take leads to "your ideals of fatalism/predestination."
2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
      As long as there's life there's hope for "everyone, even you." Your choice determines your outcome or much rather your Final Destination.





 

[Falconer02]

This comes as an attack against the world idea of "Free Will" (desire to appease the flesh (sin), and do all that which is against the will of God)

What are you talking about? This isn't "appeasing the flesh"-- you're trying to make it sound like asking simple questions is evil! I'm just bringing up faults in rudimentary logic-- I can apply this same question to non-religious people that believe in fortune-telling. Again, let me explain- If 'A' is foretold to happen in the future and only A can happen (nothing else no matter what), that is fatalism. Christians adamantly believe in vague prophecies and expect them to happen, so how is this not fatalism? I'm not going against any god here-- I just want an explanation. If a god is worthy of worship, surely he (or his followers) could answer such a simple logical contradiction.

A young boy and his friend were bike riding on the sidewalk; the young boy eventually stopped and said, "I can't go beyond this point. I can ride between point A and point B only." Another replied; I forgot, "his mom said not to go beyond this point," so they turned back and rode with him. during this time they had no adult supervision yet this child realized that as long as he adheres to his mother's rules he'll be able to ride as much as he wants/desire/will to his heart's content (Free Will.)

This example is NOT 'simply free will' and...wow...I can't believe you would fall for such an ugly argument. What part of "free" don't you understand? If the child is confined to point A and B, he is not free. In essence this example is saying christians reside in a golden cage always expecting the same thing due to the limitations and expect pampering by the master for staying in the cage. Never question anything-- everything will be taken care of for you if you just stay in it. Sure you're safe and free in the small cage, but you limit your knowledge of the world to a very small box never knowing of the world that lies beyond it.

to put God above self, and choose to depart from a life of sin that would give us a destination called HELL? Rhetorically speaking are we powerless, or is this our personal choice to do so?

So you're scared to answer an obvious contradiction in fear of hell? Enjoy the cage.

[Getinonthis]

I'm just bringing up faults in rudimentary logic

 I entirely agree with the bringing up faults but the logic part, smh no.

I know this is not beyond your level of reasoning, so many people have been saying this simple thing to you. Rules are rules, your parents had them, the country of which you reside has them (civil government), whether you accept their rule or not you have to work out your definition of "free will" around them. It's the same for us/me only difference is that we extend out loyalty to the Highest authority, the one that has the last say Jehovah "God." You have a choice to utilize that will to obey God as you've obeyed man by following their law/government or submit to the penalty of not doing so.
You find no fault with obeying civil Government knowing that if you don't submit to their ruling you'll face the wrath of their judicial decision/judgment/penalty.
Yet when we choose to do so with God Almighty you consider this to be fatalism. "Seriously?"
Like I said before your issue is not with God our His followers, it's with your twisted logic, that evolves from disloyalty (refusal to follow God's precepts.) I say this because you're not without understanding of it.


A wise man once said if you don’t change nothing changes. It only gets worse.

to put God above self, and choose to depart from a life of sin that would give us a destination called HELL? Rhetorically speaking are we powerless, or is this our personal choice to do so?

So you're scared to answer an obvious contradiction in fear of hell? Enjoy the cage.

No child of God fears hell, why should we? Our interest lies in having a relationship with God, and sharing with others that they too have the opportunity to do so. Jesus came and died for all sins so they nor us need to ignorantly fear Hell.
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. (the wise words of FDR)

"Tweet! Tweet!" I'll be a bird in a bird cage if God requires me to. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth Romans 1:16a

[Falconer02]

Rules are rules, your parents had them, the country of which you reside has them (civil government), whether you accept their rule or not you have to work out your definition of "free will" around them.

Seems like your definition of free will is defined as enslavement and far from the actual definition of it.

Free will is the apparent ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free+will

You have a choice to utilize that will to obey God as you've obeyed man by following their law/government or submit to the penalty of not doing so.

A very bad example and with that you've only proven my point yet again. I don't obey laws because I fear dealing with the outcome from the gov't. I obey laws because they promote safety and respect to myself and others. I can also go against the laws and have the ability to avoid detection while breaking them (though I rarely do this-- I just bring this up because I just watched Goodfellas 2 days ago). I actually have the liberty to go challenge those laws if I think they are unfair, problematic, and unbalanced! You can't really do that with your god, can you? You're coerced into obedience-- like your examples, you see no other way and are constrained through fear of a bad afterlife.

Like I said before your issue is not with God our His followers, it's with your twisted logic, that evolves from disloyalty (refusal to follow God's precepts.) I say this because you're not without understanding of it.

"Twisted" logic? It's a very simple question that you keep on trying to push aside and fill the space with something different or just making the question look evil. I'm not the one avoiding the philosophical argument of free will here, am I? I'm not trying to cover it up with appeals to emotion and not answering for the contradictions. That's what you've been doing for quite some time now.

No child of God fears hell, why should we?

How about knowing of the eternal torment that people you have relationships with who aren't children of your god? If that does not bring you fear and disgust, then that is truly scary. I would never wish harm to you. The mere thought of someone being tortured forever would be horrific and would forever plague my memory. Why would you even think this is going to happen to me? You've already admitted hell exists and that people go there, so if it were real, obviously you put yourself in a golden cage and you obviously don't care enough to see the problem with believing in a hell and a god who allows for it. That's a pretty sickening display of naivety. "Hey, friend! I'm going to heaven! Are you? Nope? Ah well! You were warned! La la la la laaaa!"

[Getinonthis]

Seems like your definition of free will is defined as enslavement and far from the actual definition of it.

Enslavement/Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and are forced to work.[1] Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
Again this proves your twisted logic to be a misrepresentation of Christians.

Free will is the apparent ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

Everyone, Christians as well as yourself makes choices though they may differ, (but did you notice your definition reads "apparent ability") doesn't apparent mean Appearing as such but not necessarily so? Like I said before that free will resides between rules/governments/laws that are already in place.
and are free from "CERTAIN KIND" (again did you notice your definition clearly states "certain kind" or did they meant to say ALL) of constraints. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism. Ok I'll translate this to English... Throughout History the restraint of most frequent concern has been the supernatural/scientific restraint of free will (denying the possibility of free will.)
This goes right back to what I've been saying that "free will resides within" the principles/civil government/laws that has been in place throughout history and now, just as God's precepts does not fluctuate.

free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free+will
"Twisted" logic? It's a very simple question that you keep on trying to push aside and fill the space with something different or just making the question look evil.

It's not the question but the motive behind the question, to blatantly coerce anyone to step outside of, or to violate the law of man or of God is evil yes.
Like I said before you as well everyone else has a Voluntarily choice to utilize your free will.
But remember "FREE WILL" just as it resides in the laws of man/civil government, it also resides within the laws/precepts of the creator of man, namely GOD.

How about knowing of the eternal torment that people you have relationships with who aren't children of your god? If that does not bring you fear and disgust, then that is truly scary. I would never wish harm to you. The mere thought of someone being tortured forever would be horrific and would forever plague my memory. Why would you even think this is going to happen to me? You've already admitted hell exists and that people go there, so if it were real, obviously you put yourself in a golden cage and you obviously don't care enough to see the problem with believing in a hell and a god who allows for it. That's a pretty sickening display of naivety. "Hey, friend! I'm going to heaven! Are you? Nope? Ah well! You were warned! La la la la laaaa!"

A police officer once caught his friend and as well as others in a criminal act, his friend asked, "are you really going to arrest me I thought we were friends," the officer replied," I'm an officer first and a friend second."
Upholding the law is not evil but breaking it is.

To step our of the constraints of any law would make one a lawbreaker/offender/violator in terms of God's laws this person is considered to be a sinner. The HUGE difference is that that individual can be pardoned through repentance of His deed, within the laws of man there's no guarantee of such. I give this same advice to my family, friends as well as everybody else. And whosoever fails to comply with these is worthy of the consequences whether family or friend (sad as it may be.)

Your aim is to cause people to be rebellious but 1 Samuel 15:23a reveals what the nature of that is.
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee   

[JediJohnnie]

"We punish people to eternal torture for finite and petty crimes? And because we didn't know or love the judge?"

You obviously have not read (or most likely ignored) my first post in this thread.Check out the second paragraph.

"Christians don't have free will because you have a god that knows everything already. It's a contradiction and your free will is an illusion because of that. When all things are inevitable, it's fatalism. Christians are inherently fatalists due to your gods power."

This is another example of your double-speak with attempt to cloud the issue.The fact that God KNOWS how events play out,is not in indication that all things are inevitable.He gives us free will to make the choice ourselves.

"Because those 'facts' are constantly being proven to be false information and blatant lies because of what reality shows."
 
That's why it's a waste of my time to post facts to which you've already made up your mind about.Your bias has determined your mind set.There's no point debating facts with an old school obscurantist.


"Not dreamed up. You can see it through physical means. Here-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WMAP_2010.png Cosmic Background Radiation ftw
Here's an elementary explanation of how it went down as far as our research has taken us-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PqJ2eEzD3o (7:20)
It also has a richly documented history...but it's not up to me to convince you. I've already done the research and have already proved your ignorance and/or naivety towards the subject.
[/quote]"

I've done my share of research as well.Your attempt to prove God does not exist by throwing out "my facts are better than yours" are again a waste of time.

[Falconer02]

Again this proves your twisted logic to be a misrepresentation of Christians.

Though it's a very dark example, they do run fairly parallel. Let's plug in the variables-

Enslavement/Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and are forced to work.[

You are forced to 'work' (or repent, pray, go to church, etc.) within the bounds of christian doctrine without question (as you have demonstrated). Failure to do so results in eternal punishment and is black-or-white thinking (as a slave must think).

Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation.

At birth you are deprived of freedom as you are born into sin. Refusing to repent in the christian religion ends with eternal damnation. I would constitute that as a deprivation of being able to leave since it's obvious coercion-- nobody would choose eternal damnation.

Fortunately there's an absence of proof for this belief systems claims, so we're all fine and dandy.

Everyone, Christians as well as yourself makes choices though they may differ, (but did you notice your definition reads "apparent ability") doesn't apparent mean Appearing as such but not necessarily so?

Okay okay it's obvious we're spiralling this far downward and I don't think we're on the same page anymore. So let's get back to the basics. How does an all-knowing deity allow for free will when he already knows what's going to go down due to his power? Aside that, you believe in prophecies and such, therefore you fall into fatalism-- every choice in inevitable and only has one resulting conclusion. You have shown nothing but constant appeals to emotion, authority, false analogies (especially below), and strawmen arguments.

Like I said before that free will resides between rules/governments/laws that are already in place.

throughout history and now, just as God's precepts does not fluctuate

Yes, but rules/govt's/laws have the ability to change and do so all the time-- all they need is a push. People follow them because they usually make sense during that course in time. Change is the key word here-- your beliefs have no power to change since it would go against your god's will and would crumble the foundation of your beliefs. It's a one-way path with steel hallways and therefore comparing them is not a logical example.

It's not the question but the motive behind the question, to blatantly coerce anyone to step outside of, or to violate the law of man or of God is evil yes.

WHAT!? If people were to have never 'violated the law of man or god', we would still be drowning children for talking back to their parents, killing homosexuals for something they cannot change, punishing/torturing/burning scientists for creating beneficial science, etc. etc. What you deem evil here is very VERY scary and Orwellian thinking.

A police officer once caught his friend and as well as others in a criminal act, his friend asked, "are you really going to arrest me I thought we were friends," the officer replied," I'm an officer first and a friend second." Upholding the law is not evil but breaking it is.

I understand your example, but that is a very narrow/specific example and not one to make a fair point. For instance look at the case of Galileo-- was upholding the law fair and moral? Was Galileo evil because he broke the law due to his findings? Do we still commit to those laws? You're presenting two-dimensional thinking here.

Your aim is to cause people to be rebellious but 1 Samuel 15:23a reveals what the nature of that is.
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee

Very contradictory. I am not the one being stubborn here-- I'm constantly asking for your opinion and introducing skepticism which you fail to deal with. And remember- without rebellion in the past and present, you would not be typing on your computer right now.