God is a Fake

[NCboy98]

lol... Im not sure now... You kinda changed my perspective  But for now I will still believe in god

[jcribb16]

I used to be agnostic and then at some point I was probably an atheist.  I didn't go looking for God although I was at times in difficult spots where I would pray and sadly I would on occasion pray to any god that would listen.  I have even laid down to die before, knowing honestly that I was at my end, and that is the type of difficulty I describe.

How I arrived at being a (somewhat) devout Christian is a story I don't even know how to begin to tell.  It was honestly somewhat like the trail of events in the movie 'Signs', but there were of course no aliens or crop circles or invasions or such nonsense.  It was an emergence of points of my life of both bad and good and varied over years where all of a sudden everything came together in a focused and clear point of understanding for me.  It was as if for many years I had been having a whispered and unanswered conversation with God and finally on one day he chose to answer me but not with any booming voice (or voice at all for that matter) or flaming bushes but with an appearance all at once to all of these unrelated questions and concerns all within the same point and time and laid out before me in a way that was all too obvious.  It wasn't a 'knowing' though where you have no choice in faith as the All Mighty is standing before you.  No, it was still a test of faith for someone like me who had so little faith as to be virtually hopeless in that regard.  There was no reward for me, except grace and salvation and God's love.  There was in fact punishment for me on that day and whether it was divine or not I cannot say but it did likely save my life and possibly the life's of others.  Again it is an odd story to fully tell and it would do me no justice in anyone eyes to hear of my deeds so please just take it at face value for what I have said.

Knowing God is real does you no good.  It is not in knowing that you will receive salvation but in faith.  Knowing would prevent faith and thus condemn by default.  Many people often question the lack of divine intervention and God's tolerance to mans sinful ways but I tell you that is a combination of the gift of salvation and of free will.

Thank you for sharing your testimony (or the main part of it.)  I totally agree with your last paragraph as well - faith and free will combined together to accept God's salvation.

[Falconer02]

Okay so you always say Christians are the ones making the claim and therefore have the burden of proof.

Well yeah.

You said "defined deities are fake and are simple emotional support structures for the mind." That is making a claim, so now prove it.

Very simple! As we evolve, we evolve music, language, math, spirituality, etc. to fit within our societies. All of these things stem from our brains and due to technology we can trace these effects.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains-god-spot-1641022.html

The god spot helps us cope with stress and 'big picture' questions humans have difficulty comprehending. It's fairly obvious that sometimes emotions get in the way of reality and we stuff ideas into our minds that bring comfort. Abrahamic religions have a history of doing this to every area of life-- "Can't figure out the answer? It must be god!" -- so considering it still has a foot in our culture, there's a reason the biblegod still exists in our culture. Can it bring comfort to someone? Sure! Is it legitimate? Furthest from. Considering there's physical evidence of this, I think I've proven my point.

Now understand this has to do with defined gods (religious gods). I cannot disprove the existence of any idea of a metaphysical or supernatural entity, but to push for any of the ideas I could make up would be absurd and irrational. Unfortunately that's what religions start upon and rise to power with. As a result, you get this-
http://migration.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/christianity.jpg?w=500

Besides, a Christian who believes in God and believes His Word is true and literal, does not need to prove their faith to anyone.

Ugh...the same ol' convenient cop-out in the face of skepticism.

[jcribb16]

Quote from jcribb:
Besides, a Christian who believes in God and believes His Word is true and literal, does not need to prove their faith to anyone.

Quote from Falconer:
Ugh...the same ol' convenient cop-out in the face of skepticism.



Sorry, Falconer, you'll have to come up with something better than this, lol!  That's "elementary, my dear Mr. Watson," and doesn't skim the surface of Christian faith.  Nice try, though!

[mardukblood2009]

God is not a fake, it's the people who believe that crap who are fakes. How can you call something a fake that does not exist? 

[Falconer02]

Sorry, Falconer, you'll have to come up with something better than this, lol!  That's "elementary, my dear Mr. Watson," and doesn't skim the surface of Christian faith

I can't argue with something or someone that cannot show a basis to their argument. As it has already been demonstrated- anything they bring up would be a cop-out.

"I believe this is true!"
"Proof?"
"lol I dont need to show you! I just know!"
"  "

[Abrupt]

Thank you for sharing your testimony (or the main part of it.)  I totally agree with your last paragraph as well - faith and free will combined together to accept God's salvation.

Thank you for the appreciative comment.  I suppose this is an odd place to share what I did but I felt somewhat compelled to.  I wanted to expand on it a bit, but I can be so long winded I felt it best to keep it short (yeah that is short for me).  I get a bit frustrated at the ready emergence these days of people lacking in any faith and I don't know what to attribute it to and it causes me some concern.  I cannot quite say that it has an ominous feel to it but it is disquieting to me and there is just something about it.  It is possible that I just pay more attention than I used to, and it is possible this is just the way it has always been but released by the anonymity provided by modern communication...I don't know.

[queenofnines]

Many people often question the lack of divine intervention and God's tolerance to mans sinful ways but I tell you that is a combination of the gift of salvation and of free will.

Time for your answer to this question that has been posed to Christians on here before...  How exactly can we have "free will" when your god is omniscient?  It's logically impossible.

I get a bit frustrated at the ready emergence these days of people lacking in any faith and I don't know what to attribute it to and it causes me some concern.

Here's what you can attribute to it: progression.  We've learned so much about how the world works and our universe just in the past century; it's absolutely mind blowing.  And our technological capabilities are just going to keep increasing exponentially.  The more we grow in our knowledge of things, the more we see the ancient customs of our ancestors for what they are...primitive, superstitious, basic attempts at understanding the world.  We have many of the answers as to why human behavior is the way that it is (like why we invent religions)...and yet most humans remain ignorant to these facts.

Many of us got started on this forum with this daddy of a thread (if you're bored/curious): http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=11958.msg136181#msg136181

[Abrupt]

Time for your answer to this question that has been posed to Christians on here before...  How exactly can we have "free will" when your god is omniscient?  It's logically impossible.

I can understand why some would see that as a paradox, especially if we view it through our linear concept of time (the only way we can feasibly attempt to understand time).  When viewed externally as such, it certainly seems to imply some form of determinism and thus a lack of free will.  The mistake in that, is in our considerations of a linear time and our attempt at comprehension of such by God.  Is God watching a VCR tape of a movie he has already seen?  Is He watching a play performed by live actors that he has already watched before.  Does God apply an all encompassing equation to instantaneously solve for the outcome of any situation having the ability to apply every possible variable to it at once?  These are the ways we tend to picture this playing out. 

I will not pretend to know the answer to that as I am well aware that  it is an answer we could never know.  To put it simply there are things that our minds cannot understand, irrespective of our capacity for intellect or reason.  It is logically impossible for us to even exist by every extent of our ability to reason.  Regardless of what position you take on our origin, if you follow it back to just before a beginning you are left we the undeniable conclusion that we cannot exist -- and yet we do.  That is the paradox of existence.  Embracing such an odd thought leads us only to the conclusion that some things are beyond us, or at least beyond the way we think.  I sometimes wonder if we are an 'i' (by i I mean square root of -1) in one of Einstein's equations.

Your second point I think is a perfect place to bring up an old favorite: "The Scientist vs God: Man Making Contest"

There was a convention to discuss all of the achievements in science for the past decade. After their meetings, a group of scientists were talking and came to the conclusion that man no longer needs God. So they picked one from the group to go tell Him.

The scientist approached God and said, "Listen, we've decided we no longer need you. Nowadays, we can extract stem cells, clone people, transplant hearts, and all kinds of things that were once considered miraculous."

God patiently heard him out, and then said, "All right. To see whether or not you still need me, why don't we have a little man-making contest!"

"Okay, great!" the scientist said.

"Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam," God said.

"That's fine," replied the scientist and he bent down to scoop up a handful of dirt.

"Whoa!" God said, shaking his head in disapproval. "Not so fast, pal. You get your own dirt."

[SurveyMack10]

Now you've got someone else trying to get you to "prove your claim" after they've failed to prove their initial claims concerning their 'defined deities', (which is a dodge effectively insisting that their initial claim be disproved so that they don't have to substantiate their initial claims).  Seems to me it would be easier for the initial claimants to just admit that they cannot substantiate their claims and rely upon faith alone.

I am not claiming God is or is not real, I believe He is, but I did not get on this thread and start asserting that I am right and everyone else is wrong. I am simply asking the person who claimed it was a fact that God does not exist to prove it.

Stating a belief that something is "real" is the same thing a claiming something is real.  There is no need to overtly assert that such a claim is "right" since making a claim one believes is tacitly wrong would be even more irrational than going around making unsubstantiated claims which rest upon baseless belief.  Regardless, you are again requesting that someone else prove a negative.  This isn't how reasoning works; it is however, how those who eschew reasoning work.  It's a sad state of affairs but, since the original claim/belief that "god(s)" exist remains unsubstantiated, it's a moot point.
[/quote]

You are absolutely wrong. No where on this thread did I say "GOD IS REAL"--but multiple times it has been said to me "GOD IS NOT REAL", so I am not the one staking the claim. Any response you make to this stating something different will be 100% wrong.

[falcon9]

I am not claiming God is or is not real, I believe He is

You are absolutely wrong. No where on this thread did I say "GOD IS REAL"--but multiple times it has been said to me "GOD IS NOT REAL", so I am not the one staking the claim. Any response you make to this stating something different will be 100% wrong.
[/quote]

I'm quoting you, "SurveyMack", stating your above belief claiming that "god is real".  Not only did you contradict yourself within the original claim, you go one step further and deny you claimed this.  The degree of self-delusion inherent in such a view would be astounding, were it not so commonplace.  As to your empty assertion that "any response" made to your baseless claim would be "100% wrong"; there's no substantiation provided for that additional claim either.

[falcon9]

Now you've got someone else trying to get you to "prove your claim" after they've failed to prove their initial claims concerning their 'defined deities', (which is a dodge effectively insisting that their initial claim be disproved so that they don't have to substantiate their initial claims).  Seems to me it would be easier for the initial claimants to just admit that they cannot substantiate their claims and rely upon faith alone.

I am not claiming God is or is not real, I believe He is, but I did not get on this thread and start asserting that I am right and everyone else is wrong. I am simply asking the person who claimed it was a fact that God does not exist to prove it.

Stating a belief that something is "real" is the same thing a claiming something is real.  There is no need to overtly assert that such a claim is "right" since making a claim one believes is tacitly wrong would be even more irrational than going around making unsubstantiated claims which rest upon baseless belief.  Regardless, you are again requesting that someone else prove a negative.  This isn't how reasoning works; it is however, how those who eschew reasoning work.  It's a sad state of affairs but, since the original claim/belief that "god(s)" exist remains unsubstantiated, it's a moot point.

So, to you, falcon9, an "opinion" of someone's regarding God being real or not is the same as a "fact?"  That's the way it is coming across. 
[/quote]

No, read the post again.  It specifically asserts that stating a belief, or an "opinion" if that's how you want to rephrase it), is the same thing as making a claim.  Claims, beliefs and opinions are not the same as "facts", (since facts can be substantiated).
 
[/quote]
Besides, a Christian who believes in God and believes His Word is true and literal, does not need to prove their faith to anyone.  You have to decide whether or not you choose to believe or not.  Christians are always told to "prove" God is real, but yet no one has been able to prove He is not.
[/quote]

As Falconeer02 points out, stating that a belief relies upon faith alone is precisely the same as admiting there is no substantiation for such a claim.  Further, it is a logical fallacy to insist that the opposing viewpoint 'disprove' the initial claimant's unfounded claim.

[SurveyMack10]

I am not claiming God is or is not real, I believe He is

You are absolutely wrong. No where on this thread did I say "GOD IS REAL"--but multiple times it has been said to me "GOD IS NOT REAL", so I am not the one staking the claim. Any response you make to this stating something different will be 100% wrong.

I'm quoting you, "SurveyMack", stating your above belief claiming that "god is real".  Not only did you contradict yourself within the original claim, you go one step further and deny you claimed this.  The degree of self-delusion inherent in such a view would be astounding, were it not so commonplace.  As to your empty assertion that "any response" made to your baseless claim would be "100% wrong"; there's no substantiation provided for that additional claim either.
[/quote]

No, never did I come on this thread and say GOD IS REAL AND IF YOU DONT THINK SO YOU ARE WRONG! I said, I choose to believe so, and if you do not that is fine. I am not the one who said my belief is right and yours is wrong, that was some of the atheist believers on this thread, so saying that I did anything different than what I just described is ignorant. However, since as an atheist you say your belief is right and mine is wrong you are making the claim, so prove it- that is what is always told to Christians who make any type of claim here. So don't be hypocritical, suck it up and prove it!

[jsuderc]

I posted this on another thread, but I think it is fitting here.

If you study the Bible, you will see that death and suffering were not part of God's original plan. Because they distrusted God, the first people God created chose to listen to Satan instead of God. Since that time, everybody has to make a choice--to follow Satan or to follow God.

Take a look at look at what the Bible says God's character is. "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."(I John 4: "But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one." (II Thessalonians 3:3) If you follow God and let Him guide you, your life will show these results or fruit: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control..."(Galatians 5:22-23)

These characteristics may seem to contradict a lot of what you see in the Old Testament. However, the God mentioned in the New Testament is the same God mentioned in the Old Testament. "For I am the Lord, I do not change..." (Malachi 3:6) Sometimes the image of God in the Bible may appear to be revengeful and cruel, but that is not so. Remember God is love. God hates sin and all it does, but He loves the sinner infinitely more than we can understand. He loves the sinner enough to allow Jesus to be killed to pay the penalty of sin. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23.)

God works with all of us as much as He can to get us to stop sinning and ask forgiveness for what we have done. It is totally our choice, though, because God cannot force us to obey Him. "Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." (James 4:4) God is a God of love and mercy, but He is also a God of justice. "'The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation." (Numbers 14:18) When someone persistently refuse to listen to conscience and obey God, God will not "bother" that person anymore. But that doesn't happen until God has done everything He can to help that person change. God knows everything and only when God knows that nothing else He can do will change that person, He will allow him to do what he wants. In the Old Testament, when God wiped out whole tribes of people, He was not doing it out of hatred, but rather out of love. He saw that those people would not change no matter how much more time they had. If they were allowed to stay around, they would lead many others to join them in rebellion against God. Take for example Sodom and Gomorrah. If you are not familiar with the story, read Genesis 18-19. God destroyed the wicked cities, but only after Lot and his family were led out of the city by angels. If there had been ten people who wanted to follow God in those cities, God would not have destroyed the cities.

This has much to do with what is commonly referred to as the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin is persistently refusing to listen to God. "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men." (Matthew 12:30-31) Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the persistent refusal to respond to the invitation to repent.

Do not refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit any longer. God promises in the Bible, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) It is not too late to change. Choose not to follow Satan, but rather to follow God. If you ask God to help you, He will. God loves you very much and He will never give up working with you until there is no hope left. Don't reject His pleas. Please choose to follow Him now.

[jsuderc]

Take a look at look at what the Bible says God's character is. "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."(I John 4:

I don't know why a emoticon shows up. I never put a emoticon there; instead, it's an 8.