To the Christian who thinks only those who accept Christ will go to heaven....

[walksalone11]

The way I see it is that those of our Nations who wish to sale out the Ancestors and disrespect the great sacrifices they made will come seeking your beliefs and the rest aren't interested so continually insisting on pressing them to assimilate is just plain rude at best.

Many of you will scream loudly about genetically modifying crops and will get all warm and fuzzy about endangered animals yet insist that we should change.

My belief is that ones culture and traditions are what defines them as a distinct people. Regardless of what amount of blood remains, when and if complete assimilation has been completed NDNs will be no more and all will, as I said, simply be Americans.

We insist on diversity in all things except people. Just think about that stance, what a sad state it will be if another one of our Nations are forced into extinction by any means including assimilation.

[dokkbudd]

The funny thing is.... out of EVERYONE who would take a "position" on this... if asked..... could not VERIFY ANYTHING..... but "their own" PERSONAL EXPERIENCES n BELIEFS!!! KNOW THIS FOLKS...... anything you cannot verify is FICTION to anyone else...... there is absolutely NO REASON to get "upset" or "worked up" about anyones FICTIONAL OPINIONS!!!

[walksalone11]

The funny thing is.... out of EVERYONE who would take a "position" on this... if asked..... could not VERIFY ANYTHING..... but "their own" PERSONAL EXPERIENCES n BELIEFS!!! KNOW THIS FOLKS...... anything you cannot verify is FICTION to anyone else...... there is absolutely NO REASON to get "upset" or "worked up" about anyones FICTIONAL OPINIONS!!!

When a group of people have spent the last 500 plus years trying to force their "fiction" onto your people and the same "fictional" beliefs are directly responsible for the deaths of in excess of 10 million of your Relations, then tell me there is nothing to get worked up about. Until then you do you, let everyone else do themselves and try to limit your "opinion" about issues you have absolutely no clue of.

[OctaviaLewis]

i have always thought that paganism was just n movies sumthing that was made up i have been to alot of churches an religions and im interested in learning more about it

[OctaviaLewis]

well walksalone i can see you are a very passionate about this subject with every rite  i to feel that the settlers were in there actions but i don't blame it on the religion but i do blame it on miss communication of the word that was being given what was not communicated was that GOD gave us FREE WILL and what that means(that we have the CHOICE to BELIEVE or NOT to believe) i think that if the information was given correctly then there would have been a lot less killing of our people.

[shernajwine]

the same "fictional" beliefs are directly responsible for the deaths of in excess of 10 million of your Relations

Firstly walks I wanna say that I do sympathize with the plight of your people. Indians are my people too, I have no proof but my great great grandfather on my mothers side was Indian. I don't know much about him, I can't even remember what tribe of Indian he was. But I have ancestors who were Indian and whatever small amount there is, Indian blood runs in my veins. Shame on me for not knowing more about my family history.

Secondly I want to point out that it is not the "beliefs" that are directly responsible for the deaths of any peoples in any type of democide. It is never about religion at it's heart but about power. In any event in history that involves the slaughtering of a race of people, it is a war of power. Sadly, some men justify their lust for power and the acts they commit to obtain power by using religion. Religion appeals to an emotion and if they stir up enough emotion in enough people they can create for themselves an army of weak minded emotionally manipulated fools to carry out their mission for them. They present an idea that implies a solution for a better world. While really, the truth is, they want power. They hide their lust for power behind religion.

That is exactly what happened with the settlers who came and senselessly slaughtered Indians. The government wanted power and control and they used religion to appeal to an emotion of the people who came to settle here. They were taught that people who don't follow Christianity are heathens, that Indians are savages and therefore their lives were not as important. The bible says no such a thing! How can it be a belief based on the bible??? It isn't.

 Why was there slavery? Power and control. Why was there a holocaust? Power and control. Every war, every battle, every senseless slaughtering of people, every time, boils down to that. Power and control.

[walksalone11]

the same "fictional" beliefs are directly responsible for the deaths of in excess of 10 million of your Relations

Firstly walks I wanna say that I do sympathize with the plight of your people. Indians are my people too, I have no proof but my great great grandfather on my mothers side was Indian. I don't know much about him, I can't even remember what tribe of Indian he was. But I have ancestors who were Indian and whatever small amount there is, Indian blood runs in my veins. Shame on me for not knowing more about my family history.

Secondly I want to point out that it is not the "beliefs" that are directly responsible for the deaths of any peoples in any type of democide. It is never about religion at it's heart but about power. In any event in history that involves the slaughtering of a race of people, it is a war of power. Sadly, some men justify their lust for power and the acts they commit to obtain power by using religion. Religion appeals to an emotion and if they stir up enough emotion in enough people they can create for themselves an army of weak minded emotionally manipulated fools to carry out their mission for them. They present an idea that implies a solution for a better world. While really, the truth is, they want power. They hide their lust for power behind religion.

That is exactly what happened with the settlers who came and senselessly slaughtered Indians. The government wanted power and control and they used religion to appeal to an emotion of the people who came to settle here. They were taught that people who don't follow Christianity are heathens, that Indians are savages and therefore their lives were not as important. The bible says no such a thing! How can it be a belief based on the bible??? It isn't.

 Why was there slavery? Power and control. Why was there a holocaust? Power and control. Every war, every battle, every senseless slaughtering of people, every time, boils down to that. Power and control.

Keep on boiling until you get to the base which is pure ego.

Regardless of whether it is contrary to doctrine or not, Christians continuing to act with attitudes of superiority and intolerance for others is the norm for the vast majority of them. Regardless of what the original intent was this is what it has become and it did so very very early in the life of the doctrine, therefor, right or wrong, defines the doctrine. If this is not the most common mindset of Christians why is it that I have never heard any of you guys out in the real speaking against the behavior?

[walksalone11]

Just as in other kinds of cases of abuse (female/spouse abuse, child abuse, animal abuse etc etc) those who will know its happening and simply turn a blind eye are contributing to the enabling of the behavior. You may say it isnt the same as the body count continues to rise. Can anyone here even begin to comprehend what 10 million dead bodies would look like?

Will you speak against this today? No one here can say they don't know it is happening after all of the cases I have posted about. It's time for every single one of us to adopt a zero tolerance attitude of any kinds of abuse, otherwise we are all contributors.

[jordandog]

However, the bible says you will know true Christians by their fruit. What is that fruit? Love, joy, peace, kindness.

And again, there are many, many of us who are non-Christians and show those very same things in the way we choose to live - and MUCH better than many Christians.

Sadly, some men justify their lust for power and the acts they commit to obtain power by using religion. Religion appeals to an emotion and if they stir up enough emotion in enough people they can create for themselves an army of weak minded emotionally manipulated fools to carry out their mission for them. They present an idea that implies a solution for a better world. While really, the truth is, they want power. They hide their lust for power behind religion.

And there you have the exact formula for today's growing Christian Coalition in politics. I don't think anyone, if they are being truthful, can deny this has happened and will continue to happen. Christians cry out and demand that this country follow "Separation of church and state" if it involves prayer being allowed in school (how dare anyone deny us that premise which our Founding Fathers deemed appropriate!), while at the same time have NO problem putting church and state together IF it will get them elected, push forth their agendas, and insure them the power to make policies which affect all of us who are NOT christians. The most hypocritical aspect in all of this? It is based on a 'supposed' morality we non-christians don't possess and that is a pile of crap! It doesn't matter if you know a damn thing about what a politician's stance is or have even a basic knowledge of constitutional rights. As long as you can claim you believe in God, have opened a Bible, or go to church, you know what you are doing when you cast your vote. Wrong!

This isn't directed at Sherna, anyone on here personally, just had to comment when I saw that part of the post I quoted.

[shernajwine]

Keep on boiling until you get to the base which is pure ego.

I agree that ego is a big part of it. After all, what makes a man such as Hitler think he has to right to the power he seeks? Ego.

Christians continuing to act with attitudes of superiority and intolerance for others is the norm for the vast majority of them.

There are many intolerant Christians, and it may very well be that the vast majority of Christians exhibit intolerance toward sins they perceive as somehow unforgivable (like homosexuality). However, I doubt that the vast majority of them believe that genocide is acceptable. it's mostly personal prejudices they have and it's based off their own personal feelings not Christianity as a whole.

It's time for every single one of us to adopt a zero tolerance attitude of any kinds of abuse, otherwise we are all contributors.

I agree 100%.

I want to point out though that to be tolerant of someone or a group of people does not entail agreement with their lifestyle or beliefs. As a Christian I don't want to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat but as a Christian I find a burning desire to tell people what God has done for me so that they too may come to experience him. I'm not going to scream hellfire and damnation to anyone who disagrees with me but I'm not going to say it's okay to be an atheist or it's okay to practice witchcraft because I don't think it is okay.  If that's what people mean by being intolerant than I suppose you are right, then most Christians are.

People have a right to chose how to live their life, I don't like when Jehovahs Witnesses come to my door to try and convert me so I can completely understand and sympathize with people caught in the path of an overly zealous Christian who won't take no for answer. I can sympathize with someone who has been criticized, judged, and bullied by a Christian who is holier than thou (I'm a Christian and have suffered judgment by Christians!).

 If by tolerance you mean, holding my beliefs with dignity while respecting the boundaries and rights of others, then I have met, heard of, seen, and read about countless of those kinds of Christians.

Come visit me walks and you will have so many Christians loving on you, you won't know what to do with yourself lol. 

[constance312003]

well said Sherna.  It is amazing how us Christians are so intolerant when every non-Christians continues to make fun of us and call us names.

[walksalone11]

well said Sherna.  It is amazing how us Christians are so intolerant when every non-Christians continues to make fun of us and call us names.

Little One, I have not called anyone any names and most certainly am not making fun. 10 million dead is far from being any thing to laugh about. Let's put this in a context that I am more familiar with.

A.I.M. (American Indian Movement) has always made the claim that they are honorable warrior of the people, and preach about not drinking drugging etc, when in fact the original founders were a lawless bunch of thugs who used our issues as an excuse to whoop it up, raise hell and destroy much property. I know several members who are drunkards and some will use drugs or weed at Ceremony, when most of our Nations require participants to be completely clean for a certain numbers of days prior to Ceremony. A very good friend of mines, Mother was a member who was wrongly accused of being an informant and the leadership ordered her murder and lesser ranked members carried out the deed after torturing and raping her. Now, many people still support them and will argue to the end of time about how honorable they are etc, however, they never have been, judging from their deeds thru-out their history.

Same thing. you can name the book any thing you want, it's the words inside and the deeds encouraged that makes it what it truly is.

Mrs.Sherna, from what I can see on this forum is one of the better people I know of in regards to her compassion, tolerance and moral behavior, however, as I told her once before, I have always heard of these "good" Christians but always figured they were fantasy like unicorns etc, until she came along. Most do not behave in the ways that they claim is Christian.

[Falconer02]

I think that goes with the majority of groups in the world though, Walks. You are never going to find a picture-perfect group without it's rotten apples. But I 100% agree that christianity has always been made up of a ludicrous amount of rotten apples and yet they think they're deserving of complete respect and tolerance.

[walksalone11]

I think that goes with the majority of groups in the world though, Walks. You are never going to find a picture-perfect group without it's rotten apples. But I 100% agree that christianity has always been made up of a ludicrous amount of rotten apples and yet they think they're deserving of complete respect and tolerance.

You're right Bro, perfection will never be found however, why set our sights on less? Or use that as justification to assist in the enabling or white washing the issue?

[jcribb16]

Quote from jordandog:
And there you have the exact formula for today's growing Christian Coalition in politics. I don't think anyone, if they are being truthful, can deny this has happened and will continue to happen. Christians cry out and demand that this country follow "Separation of church and state" if it involves prayer being allowed in school (how dare anyone deny us that premise which our Founding Fathers deemed appropriate!), while at the same time have NO problem putting church and state together IF it will get them elected, push forth their agendas, and insure them the power to make policies which affect all of us who are NOT christians. The most hypocritical aspect in all of this? It is based on a 'supposed' morality we non-christians don't possess and that is a pile of crap! It doesn't matter if you know a damn thing about what a politician's stance is or have even a basic knowledge of constitutional rights. As long as you can claim you believe in God, have opened a Bible, or go to church, you know what you are doing when you cast your vote. Wrong!

This isn't directed at Sherna, anyone on here personally, just had to comment when I saw that part of the post I quoted.

 

Unfortunately, you are right in that there are many "Christians" who use religion to get their votes in politics.  There are just as many who act the "Christian" when they are not for the same reasons.  Once they are in their facade is seen.  I disagree with both types.  What ever has happened to plain good old honesty and plans best for the country and the people put forth to the people for a vote?  It's very rare and it just seems it gets harder to vote because you don't know if they are lying or not.

I do believe very much so that it doesn't matter if someone is moral and good in their ways - Christians and non-Christians both can be moral and good.  There are some who don't believe that like you said and to me that is wrong.  None of us is any better than anyone else put here on this earth.  I know some of the kindest people who do so much for others as well who are not Christians.  I'm no different than them as far as people are concerned and what our constitutional rights are. I know Christians here in my town (well, they say they are and they attend one of the biggest churches in this small town) who look down on members who go to the smaller churches (country-type) just because they can't afford to offer the many programs the bigger church can offer, because of the way they dress or maybe look, or because a lot of the kids are attending the small church because the bus comes by and picks them up.  They are usually labeled "bus kids" or "troublemakers", etc. Just because these smaller church people don't dress fancy, the kids wear jeans because that's all they have, they are looked down on.  To me that is wrong.  Those "bigger" church members, if they are genuine Christians, are no different, from the "smaller" church members.  And in fact, the "smaller" church members are many times way much friendlier and make visitors to feel more welcome. Are the "bigger" church members really Christians or are they using it to their advantage like politicians like to do?

I'm sorry if I have rambled on - I didn't even intend on saying any more, but it just gets my goat when certain so-called Christians use religion to get votes, look down on others less fortunate, or cut down perfectly nice non-Christians, etc.  I work with some of those church kids and will stand up for them anytime they need me to.  And one more thing, my hubby worked in management for a few years before retiring a couple of years ago.  He always said that it was amazing to him the difference between some of the non-Christians and Christians who worked for him.  Not all, but some.  He said several of the non-Christians were always more flexible about changes in their work schedule, going to help someone who needed help even if it meant they got a little behind in their own numbers, and didn't gripe near as much when they had to work overtime. 

There are a lot of loving Christians out there, but there are a lot in sheep's clothing that are really wolves just waiting to take advantage of others. Those make it bad for genuine Christians and wonderful non-Christians both.  Thanks for letting me vent.