To the Christian who thinks only those who accept Christ will go to heaven....

[travislang]

well i grew up as jehovah witness, then went to mormon then babtists.   was shuned by all 3 of them...obstaining from blood means, that if you need a blood transfusion you would have to deny the transfusion, even if it meant life or death... 

and now what was only in movies, what did you want to know more about

[freepcmoney]

JESUS said---" I am the way, the truth and the light, NO ONE cometh to the FATHER EXCEPT BY ME!! "

Hey it is your choice to believe OR NOT to believe in the God of the BIBLE, the creator of Heaven and Earth. It is also your choice to BELIEVE or NOT to believe that He sent His son Jesus Christ to earth to die and pay the price for you and your sins, and that He rose from the dead on the third day, and is now seated at the right hand of THE FATHER God.-----I pray that you make the right choice.

[GenghisKhan44]

My good sir, what you profess is the idea that good works are the primary way to be saved, and most Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) see it as fallacious. It's called legalism.

Catholics believe that it is through faith AND good works that we come to salvation. (Many Protestants believe that faith alone can save, and that good works are a sign of living faith.) Faith and works are the sure path to Heaven as far as we know.

However, many Christians believe God to be merciful, "slow to anger, rich in kindness" (Psalm 145: and that He will repair our defects. Catholics believe the imperfect will go to Purgatory, where their souls shall be cleansed with fire (figuratively) so they may be able to go to Heaven. That might include non-Christians who have really looked for God and thought they'd found Him (or couldn't find Him).

Tell you what: go to Lourdes, France.

[shernajwine]

So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?

I think it's interesting that you list things that would seem to benefit humanity on a global scale. But since you're so keen on having your good works measured in order to be saved lets look at each of these things.

Lets say you found a cure for cancer. It would cost billions of dollars to produce and distribute this cure. A cost which a large portion of society could not afford. So due to supply and demand, greed, and a broken health care system many many many people would not benefit from your cure. And would you take a profit from your cure? Could it then be considered a good work worth a ticket to eternity when you benefited so greatly from it? Yet so many people suffering did not?

Ending world hunger is less to do with food than it does with poverty. It is a political issue. One which you see waged in front of you in the media everyday. You will not solve world hunger without violating or harming another portion of society, example:

Food aid (when not for emergency relief) can actually be very destructive on the economy of the recipient nation and contribute to more hunger and poverty in the long term. Free, subsidized, or cheap food, below market prices undercuts local farmers, who cannot compete and are driven out of jobs and into poverty, further slanting the market share of the larger producers such as those from the US and Europe. Many poor nations are dependent on farming, and so such food "aid" amounts to food dumping. In the past few decades, more powerful nations have used this as a foreign policy tool for dominance rather than for real aid.
http://www.globalissues.org/issue/6/world-hunger-and-poverty

So how much good does it merit you with God if while helping one demographic you hurt another?

Educating Children.
This costs money. The more money you put into this, the more money comes from other government aid programs. After all, there is no NEW money, just shifted money whether borrowed from another country or moved from one program to another.
So what program would you sacrifice for this endeavor? Medicare? Social Security? Perhaps you would lower the standards of education worldwide so as to spread the funding around more but less into each area. Maybe you would vow that no person in the government get a single paycheck so as to have enough money for education. But oh wait then you would be in poverty and would cancel out your solving world hunger.

There is a reason none of these things have been done. These concepts are altruistic but unrealistic if you want to use them as some sort of measurement of good works. Each of these things being on a global scale, there is going to be bad along with good. And if you want to measure that to get into heaven, you may have a problem.  I prefer to know that because I have faith, I act on my faith in goodwill toward men. My faith justifies me, my good works identify my faith.

[jcribb16]

Sherene, you made some very excellent points here.  In fact, there was a lot of research put into your answers.  It's an eye opener when things like that are brought into perspective.  I only hope they are read and taken to heart and help to answer the question put forth.

[shernajwine]

Sherene, you made some very excellent points here.  In fact, there was a lot of research put into your answers.  It's an eye opener when things like that are brought into perspective.  I only hope they are read and taken to heart and help to answer the question put forth.

  Thanks. Although 502 is not on regularly and when he is on, he fails to read a lot of these posts and he only addresses the ones that he finds easy to rebut. At least from what I've seen. 

[GenghisKhan44]

Sherna, that is an excellent post.

I personally think that unless we consider it a noble and laudable act to be humble and selfless (as opposed to rich and powerful), the world will never get better. Democracy will not make the world better. Neither will capitalism. Neither religion nor irreligion will matter if neither side is charitable and selfless (although I think Christianity has a real advantage since God is the center of our universe, and we are commanded to love one another and God above all things).

You want Heaven? Accusing and complaining will not bring Heaven.

[travislang]

why does it have to be christianity, do your research....pagans want the same thing. to love and coexest.. and if you look into the wiccan rede it says do as ye will as it harms none.....so again why christianity....but not to just boast my religion i do know some atheists that love each other and wish we just get along. i also know some satanists that love each other and wish we all get along....hell i mean go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around

[shernajwine]

go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around

On a global scale? Nope, you won't find any such thing. And considering that the majority of outreach and crisis programs are Christian based it's quite a statement to imply that the beginning of Christianity somehow brought strife among people.

[walksalone11]

go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around

On a global scale? Nope, you won't find any such thing. And considering that the majority of outreach and crisis programs are Christian based it's quite a statement to imply that the beginning of Christianity somehow brought strife among people.

source please?

[shernajwine]

go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around

On a global scale? Nope, you won't find any such thing. And considering that the majority of outreach and crisis programs are Christian based it's quite a statement to imply that the beginning of Christianity somehow brought strife among people.

source please?

Unfortunately walks I read the specific statistics from some material I checked out from the library and I can't remember which source it was actually listed in. But I would say considering that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, a religion in which the believers are expected to help the poor hurt sick and dying, it would only make sense that the majority of the help programs are Christian based.

But here is a generic statistics report on global Christian activity that I found online. http://www.gordonconwell.edu/sites/default/files/StatusOfGlobalMission.pdf

[walksalone11]

go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around

On a global scale? Nope, you won't find any such thing. And considering that the majority of outreach and crisis programs are Christian based it's quite a statement to imply that the beginning of Christianity somehow brought strife among people.

source please?

Unfortunately walks I read the specific statistics from some material I checked out from the library and I can't remember which source it was actually listed in. But I would say considering that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, a religion in which the believers are expected to help the poor hurt sick and dying, it would only make sense that the majority of the help programs are Christian based.

But here is a generic statistics report on global Christian activity that I found online. http://www.gordonconwell.edu/sites/default/files/StatusOfGlobalMission.pdf

I have found that if you hunt long enough, you can find a book that will say just about any thing you wish for.

In the real however, it is Christians and the Christian mindset that continues to commit the biggest genocide in history, with estimates running well over 10 million dead, and counting. Theses "believers" you reference are the reason for the Indigenous of many countries to be "poor, hurt, sick and dying".

As I have said, I don't lump you into this category but you are perhaps the exception that proves the rule. I think your statement is in error.

[walksalone11]

I have no reason to doubt your word Mrs. Sherna, and do believe that you read such a claim however, I also believe that the author undoubtedly made the claim much in the same way as you just did...without any facts or credible evidence to back up the claim.

10 million can not be an accident.

Christians came to this continent and very soon millions died, were stripped of the livelyhoods they had work to posses, and in fact whole Nations along with their cultures became extinct. Coincidence? impossible.

Christians arrived in Australia.....same story.

South Africa....yes, unfortunately, very much the same and I could list many more locations and acts continuing up through present day.

I read yesterday that a group of Christians asked to visit the Elders center on the Pineridge reservation but then declined when they were respectfully asked to not bring bibles and use the unfortunate circumstances as an opportunity to attempt to assimilate more of our peoples.

These are a few of the last remaining "traditionals" who keep our culture from becoming a thing of the past, however I guess Christians will never be satisfied until there are no more NDNs and we are all simply Americans.

You will say that those who commit genocide are not true Christians. I say based on the words and acts of the doctrine encompassing its whole history, that yes, they are Christian and perhaps....you are just doing it wrong and contrary to the original intent of the inventors of the doctrine.

[shernajwine]

The information I read from the library were books of religious statistics and included all religions plus non religious organizations that help the unfortunate. It was not authored by a religious person it was simply materials listing statistics.

Yes, there are Christians who committed horrible crimes against many people. I don't claim that there has ever been or will ever be a perfectly good Christian. However, the bible says you will know true Christians by their fruit. What is that fruit? Love, joy, peace, kindness. So I don't believe that Christians committing genocide are doing it right, I base that off the bible not my personal feelings. The bible describes what a Christian acts like and there are MANY who are like me, and many many countless more who are better than me. And there have been many countless true Christians throughout history. They are not few and far between, however how often do you read of all the good things Christians do? That's not hard hitting news, so you won't hear about it in the media too much.

I'm not trying to downplay the atrocities that have been committed by Christian peoples, but the numbers of atrocities attributed to Christians pales in comparison to others. In the 20th century democide related to religious conflict contributes approximately 2% of the total. That's religious conflict not just Christian conflict.
That statistic comes from http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM

Are there bad Christians? Absolutely. Most of those bad Christians, are bad with good intentions. Are there evil hearted, evil intentioned people who call themselves Christian? Absolutely. But don't confuse those with the rest of us.

[jcribb16]

Quote from Walks:
These are a few of the last remaining "traditionals" who keep our culture from becoming a thing of the past, however I guess Christians will never be satisfied until there are no more NDNs and we are all simply Americans.


I would like to say here, that genuine Christians in the Lord do not wish to do away with NDN's.  I'm proud of the fact that my great-great grandmother was married to a Cherokee Chief, which came down the line.  And we need to always remember that Indians taught early settlers how to survive in this country. 

There were groups in the past that, yes, they did attempt to bring or force the English or American or Christian cultures, including the Bible, onto them.  I believe some of their hearts were in the right place, and perhaps it could have been handled differently so as to let them come to their own decisions in their own way and time.  But, yes, I also feel there were some who were determined to "Americanize" the Indians, and to me that was wrong. The genuine Christians who really do care are those the Bible speak of as in showing their "fruit of love, peace, kindness, gentleness, patience, etc."  I back Sherene in this, to not confuse those who abuse the name of "Christian" with those of us who are genuine Christians in the Lord.