To the Christian who thinks only those who accept Christ will go to heaven....

[teflonfanatic]

OMG DARK MISTRESS I HATE YOU SO MUCH STOP TYPING OMG ITS SO AWFUL UR GOING TO HELL UR A TERRIBLE PERSON SINCE YOU NOT CHRISTIAN

jk, girrrl.   I'm glad you replied. Do moreso here in D+D. You're just pretty much telling it how it is, so I don't see why anyone would freak out at you. Please continue if you want, but you need to understand one thing that I'm starting to see all over-- the logic the believers use is pretty far-fetched no matter where you go. What I see a lot of is there's this emotional blanket that covers most logic/rationale/skepticism. If that's the case, it's usually pointless arguing correctly because you're going to strike the emotional chord and just get showered with fallacies left and right.

Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit".  Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven. And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory.  Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven.  Clean slate.

 

I never said I was not Christian. I am a Catholic, and YES I DO believe in GOD, YES I believe in Jesus, and that he died for our sins. YES I know the Bible, YES I have faith, YES I have a personal relationship with GOD. This is all truth, HOWEVER I have a hard time believing in a lot of things that MAN has done in regards to this, and things that MAN has said, and DOES say in regards to this.

All I know is when I die, You die, every single person walking this earth dies, THEN, and only THEN will you find out the REAL truth. Then you will find out if you go to heaven, or hell, or stay in limbo, get reincarnated, or etc... Only then will you possibly find out that molesters and murders are filling up heaven, OR if they are all in hell. Only then will you even find out IF there really IS a heaven/hell. For all we honestly know, when we die our "souls" or spirits could be transported back to the alien mother ship, LOL. I am not saying I believe this, I am just saying NONE of us really know for sure, UNTIL we die and find out.

You can call me a fake if you want, or say I am not a true believer, I do not care, it is not anyone's place to judge me on this, and it does not matter, because those people are NOT going to be the ones to decide what happens to me when I do die. I just strongly have issues with "MAN" not GOD. And yes the Bible is one issue I have problems with in some aspects, but again that is because I believe MAN wrote it, and that it is not 100% accurate to possibly what GOD might have wanted put in it, or not put in it.

An example of this... in the old testament it clearly says for example you are NOT supposed to work on the sabbath day, or 7th day, or we can say Sunday. Yet as times changed, and people could no longer just sit home and do nothing so to speak on that day, when the NEW testament came out, suddenly it says in there that you CAN work on this day. I TRULY believe that this was changed by MAN, to accommodate the times, and to accommodate MAN. Other examples... what about eating anything with "hoofs" aka pigs? What about touching, being with, hell even being in the SAME room as a woman who was on her menstrual? These things were SINS, and not allowed in the old testament. Then suddenly in the NEW one they are allowed? WHY? Because man decided eating pigs was ok? Because man did not want to have to stay away from women while on their periods? Though based on how some women act while on their periods... I don't know why in the world they would want to change that one, LOL.

As for those who want to preach that the Bible was written word for word what was told to them... LMFAO, ok here is something to think about... again I repeat what I mentioned in another post, nothing written in the Bible was written BY the person who went through it, saw it, experienced it. It was all "handed down" knowledge. So HERE is the questions... have you ever played that game in school or etc... where the teacher lined up all the students, then he/she whispered something into the ear of the first person, then that person whispered it to the second person, then second whispered to third and etc... THEN at the end, after all the students did this, the last one would say out loud what they were told? Ever notice that it is rarely IF ever the exact SAME thing the first person was told? Think about it... Another question, what about Noah's arc? Are we to believe that when GOD wiped out the world with that water, but only Noah, and his family were spared on the arc. SO the point here is, that every story in the bible before Noah, was remembered and passed on BY Noah? Every detail, fact, and etc...?

Ok last thing: I believe GOD is all knowing, and etc... So if GOD is perfect, infallible, AND all knowing... then WHY, are there contradictions in the Bible? Why are there things inaccurate in the Bible? Why are there things NOT in the Bible that IF it was written as GOD wanted it written then he WOULD know and have those things put in it? This just does not make sense, but what DOES make sense, is that MAN wrote the Bible as he wanted, based on what he was told, I believe he forgot, or just left out things that he wanted to leave out, or added things he felt personally should be in there. I believe the reason some things were left out, is because MAN is NOT all knowing, and at the time he did not know about them. I could give examples of this as well, but I will leave it alone for now, and end this post. Any feedback is welcomed, and I hope some of you really read and think about the things put here.

I would love to answer your questions if only we can PM each other but we can't , I also left my laptop on the bus(in a bag) please flame me Falconor and every FC member period even Kolher(FC Admin).

[teflonfanatic]

Good argument except you also map out your life and plans thus your own choices are illusions too  

Well nothing ever goes according to plan since we don't have knowledge of the futue. If this statement were true, I'd be a billionaire and married to the hottest woman on earth.

Heck I guess God's own judgments(choices on condemning action) is an illusion too since he mapped those out long before the world began.

That's a good point. And that's why I think the whole idea here is just insane because people following this deity so adamantly think he's full of love and yet he pulls such an evil move (unless he's imperfect). Like Jdog put it, there's probably some cop-out reasoning to this and that's a major reason why agnostics/atheists don't even bother with religion-- it's to the point where it's just so ludicrous to even assume such things.

You comments are in the order you said them.

"Well nothing ever goes according to plan since we don't have knowledge of the futue. If this statement were true, I'd be a billionaire and married to the hottest woman on earth."

Well you have the ability to plan and i'm pretty sure you do well with the limited knowledge you have. I believe mapping out events is called quantum mechanics if you get good enough with probability skills. Now imagine God using that but to the 100000 trillionth power times another 100000 trillion 

"That's a good point. And that's why I think the whole idea here is just insane because people following this deity so adamantly think he's full of love and yet he pulls such an evil move (unless he's imperfect). Like Jdog put it, there's probably some cop-out reasoning to this and that's a major reason why agnostics/atheists don't even bother with religion-- it's to the point where it's just so ludicrous to even assume such things."

Define pulls such an evil move, otherwise I agree on everything you just said.

[Falconer02]

Well you have the ability to plan and i'm pretty sure you do well with the limited knowledge you have. I believe mapping out events is called quantum mechanics if you get good enough with probability skills. Now imagine God using that but to the 100000 trillionth power times another 100000 trillion 

I actually am not doing too well at the moment. Not horrible or anything-- I'm making due and all and I'm in good health and shape. But it could be a lot better compared to my fantasy life. Aside from the cool forum with cool people, why do you think I'm on FC? lol

Even with planning things, the results I sometimes get could always be better. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say rarely do plans work perfectly. Even if I were to expontentially heighten my ability to plan into the trillions, I'd still be very imperfect.

Define pulls such an evil move, otherwise I agree on everything you just said.

Well when you have control over everything (including our 'free will') and you allow for horrid things to happen and also expel people into oblivion for eternity as many christians believe, that's completely evil. If this god is omniscient --knows you're going to end up in hell-- ultimately you're screwed from day one. I'll fall back on Epicurus's famous quote as I have time to time in the past-
http://maradon.makeitorky.com/epicurus_god.jpg

[vicogden]

I just returned from Thailand on March 10th after visiting my fiance.  She is Buddhist, as is her sister and most of Thai populace.  Anywhere you look, you will see Buddha statues, including most residences, public places, taxi dashboards, etc.--pretty much everywhere.  To make a long story short, I know a lot of people of different religions who have good hearts and cannot believe that a loving omnipotent being, God, would relegate all those who are non-Christian to hell.  If you live by the Golden Rule and realize that love is the most important thing, I think you will be rewarded when you "cross over", Christian or not.

[shernajwine]

Here is an interesting article I read. I have watched a lot of Rob Bell videos and I find his way of addressing things very interesting. I haven't read his new book or watched the video mentioned in this article, but I plan to. I think he probably makes a very relevant point and I wouldn't personally dismiss the idea of universalism, if it didn't contradict scripture. So I'm excited in reading something that talks about God's love, instead of his judgment. If you have an interest in this thread topic I suggest reading this article. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-lose/rob-bell-hell-and-john-31_b_833627.html

[DarkMistress]

^
Epic statement of the day. The last few posts have shown that this is getting a little too odd for me to comment on.

And Darkmistress-- I'm not questioning, bashing, or calling you a fake nor do I want to. From my POV you seem like you have your head on pretty straight. You seem to be more of an agnostic-theist than an adamant christian because you actually see some massive problems and question them.

I am not "agnostic-thiest". If I had to classify my religion then it would be Catholic. I just am who I am. I am a good person who tries to live by the ten commandments on a daily basis. I have made plenty of mistakes, and when needed I have asked GOD to forgive me for them, then I try not to repeat them. I believe in GOD, and in Jesus, I believe Jesus died for my sins, and I believe GOD loved me so much that he allowed his only son TO die for my sins. I believe when I die, I will be judged, and at that time all will be revealed, and I will find out 100% for sure what was true or not on this earth. If you asked me right now do I believe I would go to heaven, or hell? I would say I believe I will go to heaven, though I did not always believe this. I do not question GOD, Jesus, or his works on earth, however I DO question man. As hard as it might be to believe, this is all true. No where does it say we can not question things, or question man/other human beings. I will continue to question man to the day I die, for I will never walk blindly following what man has lead. Only GOD is infallible/perfect, man is not. It does not matter if GOD is working through some men/women, they are still human beings and NOT GOD himself, and they are not infallible, so they DO make mistakes, misunderstand, judge, and etc... So all of this take in, this is why I question the Bible, not all of it mind you, but some of it I do, yes. I also question how some people interpret the Bible, and GOD's works. I question what those who claim to be experts say is true or not true, in GOD's eyes, because they are not GOD, and they are basing their wisdom and knowledge on a book written by man, as well as what they think, feel, or their opinion. I say this because there are WAY to many "experts" who say different things, who have different versions to the "truth" in regards to the Bible, and GOD. So who is right? Are Catholics right? Christians? Baptists? and etc... Who is to say who is right, and who is wrong? This is why I question. It has nothing to do with my faith, belief or trust in GOD.

[DarkMistress]

I would love to answer your questions if only we can PM each other but we can't , I also left my laptop on the bus(in a bag) please flame me Falconor and every FC member period even Kolher(FC Admin).

Sorry, but I have no idea what this means, or what you are saying here...

[HuffmanFamilyof4]

Yes, 502mania, you will be sent to the eternal place of punishment, unless you acknowledge Him as Lord.  Good works do not get you a spot in Heaven.  Perhaps, if you acknowledge Him, then you can thank Him for helping you to find that cure for cancer.

you are so full of it your making it stink again..if there was really a god someone would have had to create him there is NO such thing as an infinite being everyone has got to be made, so your wasting your time praying to someone that does not exist(your actually talking to yourself) there is NO ONE that is going to chance my mind, when your dead, your dead and yes there is a place we go when we die..it's called THE GROUND

[Falconer02]

I have made plenty of mistakes, and when needed I have asked GOD to forgive me for them, then I try not to repeat them.

Why not just learn from your mistakes?

I believe in GOD, and in Jesus, I believe Jesus died for my sins, and I believe GOD loved me so much that he allowed his only son TO die for my sins. I believe when I die, I will be judged, and at that time all will be revealed, and I will find out 100% for sure what was true or not on this earth.

If you asked me right now do I believe I would go to heaven, or hell? I would say I believe I will go to heaven, though I did not always believe this. I do not question GOD, Jesus, or his works on earth, however I DO question man. As hard as it might be to believe, this is all true. No where does it say we can not question things, or question man/other human beings. I will continue to question man to the day I die, for I will never walk blindly following what man has lead.

Why? Were you raised up believing this? Being the questioning person that you are, are you aware that there are a lot of other characters that have the same mythical quest pattern of Jesus that came way before his story did? You said you question man, so why even believe in such stories that are so obviously man-made? I mean I could introduce you to a truckload of information on the subject, but I want to hear your take on it; if you've ever questioned the basics.

Only GOD is infallible/perfect

I beg to differ. I brought this up in a few threads now. With this one god, there seems to be 2 options that come to light- he is very imperfect or he is evil. Basic reasoning- if he is omniscient, then he knows everything. If he knows everything, he knows who's going to heaven and hell. Nobody has free will due to this-- everyone's fate is set in stone on day 1. Any choice you make is pre-known and therefore there really is no choice in a universal sense. So this god is both lying and evil unless he has flaws and does not know what the future holds. So if he's infallible/perfect, he's going to judge you with what he already knew would happen beforehand? Isn't that sick? Let me know what you think.

So who is right? Are Catholics right? Christians? Baptists? and etc... Who is to say who is right, and who is wrong? This is why I question.

Join the club. Except I'm to the point of realizing christianity (no offense to you) is just as wacky as all of the others out there. The only thing that really bugs me is all of the judging and obvious deception going on within it. It's immature, irritating, primitive, and humorous all at the same time. Heck, it just happened to me a few days ago on this forum- some dude couldn't wrap his head around the topic I brought up so he got mad and cursed me to go to hell.  

[Falconer02]

I would love to answer your questions if only we can PM each other but we can't , I also left my laptop on the bus(in a bag) please flame me Falconor and every FC member period even Kolher(FC Admin).

So I take it that you lost your laptop? That sucks, man.   Sorry to hear that. Hopefully some decent person will return it. A heads up though- I'd suggest changing any information that may have been stored in the browser-- email PW's, bank ID's, etc. etc.

[safusionito]

The reason so many Christians think only those who accept Christ will go to Biblical Heaven is because that is what the Bible clearly states.  Satan is known as the great deceiver, and he doesn't need anyone's permission to deceive them.  I think Satan will have MANY believing that as long as they are "just good people, living a good life" that they will go to Heaven---and he will be laughing at them later because they bought that lie.  The Bible clearly states only those that accept Jesus into their hearts and have their sins forgiven will be saved.  (The longer one is saved, the more that God will expect from them because Christianity is more than "lip-service".)  For God to let anyone else into Heaven for any other reason would be to make Jesus a liar...and that isn't going to happen.  Choose whom you're going to serve wisely...you WILL be spending eternity with them. 

Well put, SherylsShado!!!

I like it, SherylsShado.  Bless your heart! Thanks!

[jcribb16]

Yes, 502mania, you will be sent to the eternal place of punishment, unless you acknowledge Him as Lord.  Good works do not get you a spot in Heaven.  Perhaps, if you acknowledge Him, then you can thank Him for helping you to find that cure for cancer.

you are so full of it your making it stink again..if there was really a god someone would have had to create him there is NO such thing as an infinite being everyone has got to be made, so your wasting your time praying to someone that does not exist(your actually talking to yourself) there is NO ONE that is going to chance my mind, when your dead, your dead and yes there is a place we go when we die..it's called THE GROUND

Yes, I agree with you that when we die, our bodies do get put in the ground.  However, I do believe our souls (believers in God) are immediately with God.  I don't feel I'm wasting my time praying to the Lord.  I get that you don't agree with my beliefs - that's okay.  You have your opinion about this and we should agree to just disagree about what we believe/don't believe.  I'm not trying to change your mind and as well, you won't change my mind.  The first chapter of John in the Bible tells us that God has always been.  That's a concept that even I don't understand - how can God already be?  I have to remember that His ways and thoughts are much higher than mine. But I do feel that question will be answered, among others, when I meet Him one day.

[walksalone11]

Yes, 502mania, you will be sent to the eternal place of punishment, unless you acknowledge Him as Lord.  Good works do not get you a spot in Heaven.  Perhaps, if you acknowledge Him, then you can thank Him for helping you to find that cure for cancer.

you are so full of it your making it stink again..if there was really a god someone would have had to create him there is NO such thing as an infinite being everyone has got to be made, so your wasting your time praying to someone that does not exist(your actually talking to yourself) there is NO ONE that is going to chance my mind, when your dead, your dead and yes there is a place we go when we die..it's called THE GROUND

Yes, I agree with you that when we die, our bodies do get put in the ground.  However, I do believe our souls (believers in God) are immediately with God.  I don't feel I'm wasting my time praying to the Lord.  I get that you don't agree with my beliefs - that's okay.  You have your opinion about this and we should agree to just disagree about what we believe/don't believe.  I'm not trying to change your mind and as well, you won't change my mind.  The first chapter of John in the Bible tells us that God has always been.  That's a concept that even I don't understand - how can God already be?  I have to remember that His ways and thoughts are much higher than mine. But I do feel that question will be answered, among others, when I meet Him one day.

Now dont go annoying him with a thousand questions the second you walk thru the pearly gates. He is liable to get fed up, give you a thumbs down and send you along with the rest of us un-desirables. ;o)

[HuffmanFamilyof4]

there just is no such thing as something that has always been, something has to create it. so therefore there is no such  thing as a god unless it's a beautiful woman then maybe a goddess

[shernajwine]

there just is no such thing as something that has always been, something has to create it. so therefore there is no such  thing as a god unless it's a beautiful woman then maybe a goddess

 Your statement is ignorant even from a purely naturalistic point of view.

When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/who_created_god.html

If the beginning of the universe marked the beginning of time then whatever caused the universe to exist, exists outside of time and therefore is infinite. Whether you want to say that that cause was God or go with the mother universe theory which makes some unobservable untestable unknowable universe infinite and churns out many universes, the FACT is that whatever the causal agent is IS infinite and that's science, not religion.

Also your statement contradicts itself because essentially your string of "creating agents" would be infinite. If everything has to be created then the time line of events never stops.

Who/what created the universe? (let's just say God for illustrative purposes)
Who/what created God? Aliens
Who/what created aliens? A combustion of chemicals
Who/what created the chemicals and caused combustion?

You see what I'm getting at? Either the sequence of creative agents is infinite (which is impossible and illogical) or there is a single creative agent that is itself infinite.