To the Christian who thinks only those who accept Christ will go to heaven....

[Stealth3si]

So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.

A "Christian" who thinks that clearly hasn't read the OT.

So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?

Since you're still alive, I don't know.

[Dbaxley234]

The thing about Christianity - is that it is just one of many organized religions. It is a by product of people who found the Catholic religion too strict, or with its faults. The truth is that all organized religions have their faults. The Bible we know today and the most widely used - The King James version is exactly that - a version translated during King James's reign - it is actually missing several books from the original bible.

But other than that - I am open minded enough that I want to learn about ALL religions. Learn their practices, their beliefs and so forth - to find similarities as well differences. And that includes the ancient religions/beliefs of the Mayans, the Greek, The Romans, The Egyptians, and The Sumerians. According to Scientific discovery they were the first of the human race. For Christianity beliefs - Adam & Eve, Cain & Able, & their children.

I have been raised a Southern Baptist. But I've attended Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, and several other denominational churches.  HOWEVER, there are several things that don't make sense to me about the things in the Bible. For example - The first chapters in Genesis state that it was normal for people to live over 900 years old. Also "And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth" Genesis 7:5. Another thing that doesn't necessarily make sense to me is even beginnign with Adam & Eve... If God is this All-Knowing All -Seeing Omniscient being than why in the Garden of Eden did he have to search for Adam & Eve?   "And they heard the voice of the Lord God, walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the Trees of garden. And Lord God called unto Adam and said unto him Where art thou? And he said, I heard they voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked: and I hid myself." Genesis 3:8-10.
Looking at the Translations of the Sumerian Tablets of Creation though - many of the Biblical stories coincide, including that of Adam & Eve, Cain & Able, Noah. But they did not have a single God. They knew the Annunaki  as their God. Which several of the things that were made to be unheard of - like God putting Adam to a deep sleep, taking a rib, closing him up & using that to make Eve - is that really much different than any transplant operation that surgeons do everyday - take an organ from one person & give another person new life with it??? Even Jesus himself - I'm not saying he wasn't real or that any of the miracle & such that he went through weren't real - I can't say that because I wasn't there, no one alive today was. So how can we know for sure - without a doubt that any of that happened or was it anything like the illusions of today - for example the best illusionist & magician alive today Criss Angel who does some things that many people believe completely impossible - bending the rules of physics? Because the Bible said so - it also said Adam and Eve were the creation of humans - but both Cain and Able found wives from somewhere? When Cain was banished - he found a whole other civilization. According the Sumerian Tablets of Creation - when Ka-in was banished - his DNA was altered so that he could not grow facial hair & that was his mark of his betrayal for murdering his brother. And that is supposedly why Native Americans don't grown facial hair. So, actually think about it- have you ever seen a full blooded Native American, real or depicted from the past, with facial hair?? Why is that if we were all created from the same Adam & Eve?? Also, why are we, especially Christians so quick to dismiss the religions of the middle east as flat out wrong - when that was the region where Jesus was born, same as Moses. I'm not saying they are completely right or wrong or if they simply have lost the original knowledge through the generations & may be misguided now - but I would like to know more about their religion, especially since after all the Bible had to be translated from Arabic. I would like to again - study the similarities as well the differences between ALL religions.

Don't get me wrong - I do have faith, & want so badly to believe there is some great loving God with our best intentions and destinies in mind or planned out for us. As well, I believe in Angels. I don't have much choice but to believe in Angels after my brother saw my guardian angel protecting from illness that he caught out of the blue when I was 9 years old. But at the same time - we were given brains & free will to be able to think for ourselves. So why is it so horrible for someone to have faith - but still have questions and not be satisfied with the cookie cutter answers.

I'm not putting any religion down - just would like some answers & for people to think a little more thoroughly about it all. 

[angelhome]

So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?

Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........

By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!

exactly. I hope you cure cancer too!

They're going to tell you that your ignorant for mocking god, when in reality its more ignorant to believe in something so completely that has yet to be proven. I've also wondered about the good hearted, amazing, wonderful people who do all kinds of good deeds but has never even heard of god or jesus. Makes me sick to think that they supposedly go to hell but all these rapists and murderers that go to prison and supposedly find god and get saved go to heaven. I mean, no one would want to go to a place like that. Think about it though, the devil was in heaven, so why wouldnt other kinds of "evil" be there too? if its real and all.

satan was thrown from the highest heaven with 1/3 of his angels who rose up in pride to place themselves above GOD who had created them all. in the end GOD has prepared a place for them in the pit of hell...Until the end GOD has let satan be the power of the air... In the end light & darkness will separate, light will go up and darkness will go down... so those who walk in darkness now should not be surprised that they will spend eternity in darkness, while others who accept & know HIM, will be walking on streets of gold. Salvation motivates those who accept YESHUA/JESUS as their redeemer to good works that reflect YESHUA/JESUS. They do all that they do in love as an extension of the LORD. They do not do good works for selfish reasons, nor do they desire to promote them self or to brag. So most that walk in HIS Will do not call attention to what they do, and often go un notice. The Bible is understood by those who seek HIM, those who study the Bible to elevate themselves live in constant fear of dying and walk blindly.

[Dbaxley234]

  He will know exactly what has been in each person's heart, He knows each person's every thought....He will know every action one ever made.  He will know exactly how many times one heard "the message of Christ" and ignored it.  He will also know those that never heard the message of Christ (and what happens there I'm not certain but I know He will be fair & just).  He will know every motive, there will be no hiding anything from Him. 

  Those that aren't covered by the blood of Christ, those that never wanted to give God a second thought, those that were deceived by satan will now be officially "given" to satan (they now officially belong to satan, God is done wasting His time on them)  and  they all will be spending eternity in hell and as powerful as satan is...I think one can bet that he will "reign" there.

SherylsShado - I just have a couple questions - if God is All-Knowing All-Seeing and everything else - how did he not know that Adam & Eve ate from the forbidden tree immediately? How did he not find out until later when Adam confessed to not only eating the apple but also to realizing his nakedness. Didn't Adam confess, apologize & seek forgiveness? But yet he & Eve were still cast out of Eden, which if probably the Earthly equivalent to Heaven, anyway. If God is all understanding and forgiving wouldn't he have forgiven Adam & Eve of their fault when they begged for His forgiveness??

And the way you describe the Revelations - the End of all ends - slightly confused... what Satan and God can get along well enough to divide souls like they were poker chips won? Really? And "God is done wasting his time on them"... really? This all righteous love this absolute love can just turn his back on his children because they either didn't know or didn't listen to Him?? Are you a mother? I am. I'll admit sometimes I get aggravated with my kids but no matter how bad they are, or how rebellious, or dis-obedient they are I know I could never turn my back on them - not completely & certainly not enough to have them tortured and tormented in Hell knowing I have a nice cozy spot in Heaven. Could you?? I don't think God who teaches us how to love, being that He is the ultimate love - could honestly be that cold. Sorry, I can't believe that a God can be so forgiving and merciful but at the same time cold and unyielding. Its a complete oxymoron.

Also, if you stand so strongly by the fact that there will be a mix of religions, tribes, denominations etc going to both Heaven & Hell.... you're contradicting you're own beliefs. Because if "you're way" (by that I mean the Christian belief) is the ONLY way to Heaven - then how can other religions or denominations or tribes be accepted if they believe another way or a different way is the way to Heaven

I'm just confused and would like to get some clarity.

[sflynt]

So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?

Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........

By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!

exactly. I hope you cure cancer too!

They're going to tell you that your ignorant for mocking god, when in reality its more ignorant to believe in something so completely that has yet to be proven. I've also wondered about the good hearted, amazing, wonderful people who do all kinds of good deeds but has never even heard of god or jesus. Makes me sick to think that they supposedly go to hell but all these rapists and murderers that go to prison and supposedly find god and get saved go to heaven. I mean, no one would want to go to a place like that. Think about it though, the devil was in heaven, so why wouldnt other kinds of "evil" be there too? if its real and all.

satan was thrown from the highest heaven with 1/3 of his angels who rose up in pride to place themselves above GOD who had created them all. in the end GOD has prepared a place for them in the pit of hell...Until the end GOD has let satan be the power of the air... In the end light & darkness will separate, light will go up and darkness will go down... so those who walk in darkness now should not be surprised that they will spend eternity in darkness, while others who accept & know HIM, will be walking on streets of gold. Salvation motivates those who accept YESHUA/JESUS as their redeemer to good works that reflect YESHUA/JESUS. They do all that they do in love as an extension of the LORD. They do not do good works for selfish reasons, nor do they desire to promote them self or to brag. So most that walk in HIS Will do not call attention to what they do, and often go un notice. The Bible is understood by those who seek HIM, those who study the Bible to elevate themselves live in constant fear of dying and walk blindly.

(according to the bible) Satan was in heaven... period. Thats all my point was. so evil can be in heaven, great. I've read the bible, and I know how the whole religion thing works.. just doesn't add up.

and what about those people who do good deeds just because they are good people, but have never even heard of jesus? They go to hell? Pretty f**ked up IMO.

 No one seems to want to answer this question.. I guess thats an answer in itself.

[Dbaxley234]

sflynt - I don't think anyone really knows. There's plenty of speculation based on religious beliefs from who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell, or like some religions believe in reincarnation. But since we're all still alive - none of us can actually knowingly answer that.

And you're right, Satan was Heaven. He was even one of the more powerful or higher authorities among Angels... At least until he rebelled against God's wishes. But I agree with you - there's several things that don't make sense with religion.

[Cuppycake]

So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?

Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........

By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!

exactly. I hope you cure cancer too!

They're going to tell you that your ignorant for mocking god, when in reality its more ignorant to believe in something so completely that has yet to be proven. I've also wondered about the good hearted, amazing, wonderful people who do all kinds of good deeds but has never even heard of god or jesus. Makes me sick to think that they supposedly go to hell but all these rapists and murderers that go to prison and supposedly find god and get saved go to heaven. I mean, no one would want to go to a place like that. Think about it though, the devil was in heaven, so why wouldnt other kinds of "evil" be there too? if its real and all.

They claim "god is good" and I just don't see it at all. If there is a god that allows innocent to suffer while demanding love and attention from everyone "or else" then that is not good being in my honest opinion. If the is the kind of "god" to be worshiped then count me out lol!

[Dbaxley234]

 What is it that would make one think that God absolutely did not know that Adam & Eve ate from the forbidden tree immediately?  My thoughts are that after the incident, God called out to Adam asking where he is...it wasn't because God can't find Adam but rather that Adam & Eve were already feeling the effects of disobedience, and their sin had "separated" them from God.
                                                                                                                                                              The Bible doesn't say Adam & Eve confessed (in the garden) because they were repentant, it says they each placed the blame elsewhere (they tried to "fool" God, but one can't fool an all-knowing God) and then they only admitted fault because they "got caught". I wonder if they even really fully comprehended what was happening right away because this was the FIRST time they had ever disobeyed, and their FIRST taste of what discipline was. Even if they had admitted and apologized right away, there are consequences one has to live with for making the wrong choices.

A couple of things - after they ate the apple is when their eyes were really opened. Because until that point they had not known they were naked. They saw they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7

Genesis 3:8-11 quoted "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him. Where art thou?
 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
 And he said Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"  

So that is why I say God did not know immediately that they had eaten from the tree. Also, if God is an All-knowing All-seeing being how would Adam even been able to hide from God among the trees??? He wouldn't if God knows all & sees all. That's all I'm saying. oh and by the way - it was not until after they ate from the tree that they even knew difference between good and evil & gained free will.

[Dbaxley234]

SherylsShado - I'm not saying that he won't stick to his word & that some people won't still go to Hell, what I was commenting on was the way you worded it - it sounded like they would just be dividing up chips they won over a poker game or something. Its not that cold - I mean it can't be. Not for a God to be so loving. And the fact that he has to be understanding to those who never knew him. And does it really condemn us to hell for using our brains & questioning the version of the Bible that we have today?? When if you really read through it - there are things that just don't make a whole lot of sense..... ?? Like I said - I've been raised a southern baptist & I do believe - but that doesn't mean that I don't notice discrepancies within the Bible & choose to question those discrepancies. Does that mean I'm going to Hell

[jcribb16]

 What is it that would make one think that God absolutely did not know that Adam & Eve ate from the forbidden tree immediately?  My thoughts are that after the incident, God called out to Adam asking where he is...it wasn't because God can't find Adam but rather that Adam & Eve were already feeling the effects of disobedience, and their sin had "separated" them from God.
                                                                                                                                                              The Bible doesn't say Adam & Eve confessed (in the garden) because they were repentant, it says they each placed the blame elsewhere (they tried to "fool" God, but one can't fool an all-knowing God) and then they only admitted fault because they "got caught". I wonder if they even really fully comprehended what was happening right away because this was the FIRST time they had ever disobeyed, and their FIRST taste of what discipline was. Even if they had admitted and apologized right away, there are consequences one has to live with for making the wrong choices.

A couple of things - after they ate the apple is when their eyes were really opened. Because until that point they had not known they were naked. They saw they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7

Genesis 3:8-11 quoted "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him. Where art thou?
 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
 And he said Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"  

So that is why I say God did not know immediately that they had eaten from the tree. Also, if God is an All-knowing All-seeing being how would Adam even been able to hide from God among the trees??? He wouldn't if God knows all & sees all. That's all I'm saying. oh and by the way - it was not until after they ate from the tree that they even knew difference between good and evil & gained free will.

Like Sheryl said, God did know what they had done.  He was giving them the opportunity to be accountable to their own actions, just as a parent would do. Because He is God, He is all-knowing but they didn't understand that concept.

[Dbaxley234]

A couple of things - after they ate the apple is when their eyes were really opened Because until that point they had not known they were naked. They saw they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7

     I agree, that is when their "eyes were really opened"...NOT when God's eyes were "opened", He already knew.  The Bible says Adam & Eve were "hiding", it doesn't say that God "lost them, couldn't find them, didn't see them or that He didn't know where they were".  He called out to them...He KNEW they were there, God doesn't go around "talking to Himself".  Where in the Bible do you see verses that support the thought "oh and by the way - it was not until after they ate from the tree that they even knew difference between good and evil & gained free will" "----- They were created with free will from the beginning, it was their decision to "use their free will" and make their own choice regardless of what God told them to do that got them into trouble.  They already knew the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do because God had told them.  They already had the right to use their "free will" because they used it.  What changed when they disobeyed God was they were no longer in "perfect harmony" with Him, their sin had changed everything.

If God knew where Adam & Eve were - he wouldn't have to ask "Where are you?" !! That's my point. He would simply have to say "Adam - come out from behind that tree" .. yes, vague modern translation but the point is still the same. And yea he knew they were in the Garden - but not EXACTLY WHERE in the garden like an "ALL-KNOWING" God would have.

The verse that says they didn't know the difference between good and evil is as follows:

Genesis 3:7 "And the eye of them both were opened. and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

Also

Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said. Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever:"

The reason I say God did not know immediately is because it states in Genesis 3:11 that he had to ask who told them they were naked and had to ask if they ate from the tree.

Honestly - to me it seems like you're fighting basic common sense logic for blind faith. In my opinion - there's nothing wrong with having faith - but not lose common sense or logic for it. That is absolutely obscured to me.  Why would God give us brains, the capability to think if we're not supposed to use them in EVERYTHING including our faith???  If for no other reason but to not be deceived by religions and translations that aren't his TRUE word, intentions, or desires for us as humans.

The Bible says that God regularly walked & talked (flesh to flesh , face to face - otherwise a true conversation could not happen) to Adam, Eve, Cain, Able and Noah... then what just stopped having real conversations that could be documented???

Also it says in Genesis 6:2-4 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives all which they chose.
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became might men which were of old, men of renown"

What is the difference between "Sons of God" and men???  And who is God talking about saying "he also is flesh" other than himself - there's no reference to anyone else in any of those verses. And there's the giants in the earth part - where did they come from?? If they were not part of or from God's original creation of man ?

Even aside from that - if there is truely only one all-knowing blah blah said it too many times God - why when he created Adam he said "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;" Genesis 1:26. Why would he refer to himself as plural through all of that???

Those are the discrepancies that I'm talking about.

[Dbaxley234]

SherylsShado - I have more question for you - do you have any idea and contradicting you keep making yourself sound?

You say things like there's nothing wrong with other religions & tribes & there will be a mix that go to Heaven and Hell - but at the same time you say that there is only ONE Right way to Heaven. But some of the other religions out there - don't believe the way to Heaven is the same way that you believe to be the ONLY way to Heaven.  <<<< Contradiction

Also, you say there's nothing wrong with questioning the Bible and religion - and that it doesn't necessarily mean that someone who does is going to go to Hell... But at the same time you say that ANYONE who does NOT have complete (basically blind) faith in God and devotes their entire life to worshiping Him and not only that - but lives as such, will be sent to Hell. <<<< Contradiction

[angelhome]

A couple of things - after they ate the apple is when their eyes were really opened Because until that point they had not known they were naked. They saw they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7

     I agree, that is when their "eyes were really opened"...NOT when God's eyes were "opened", He already knew.  The Bible says Adam & Eve were "hiding", it doesn't say that God "lost them, couldn't find them, didn't see them or that He didn't know where they were".  He called out to them...He KNEW they were there, God doesn't go around "talking to Himself".  Where in the Bible do you see verses that support the thought "oh and by the way - it was not until after they ate from the tree that they even knew difference between good and evil & gained free will" "----- They were created with free will from the beginning, it was their decision to "use their free will" and make their own choice regardless of what God told them to do that got them into trouble.  They already knew the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do because God had told them.  They already had the right to use their "free will" because they used it.  What changed when they disobeyed God was they were no longer in "perfect harmony" with Him, their sin had changed everything.

GOD is so good, HE created us, gave us HIS breathe - and than gave us free will, we can choose to sin or not to sin???
we can choose hell or choose heaven and we have that choice until we die... HE is so amazing!!!

[sflynt]

So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?

Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........

By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!

exactly. I hope you cure cancer too!

They're going to tell you that your ignorant for mocking god, when in reality its more ignorant to believe in something so completely that has yet to be proven. I've also wondered about the good hearted, amazing, wonderful people who do all kinds of good deeds but has never even heard of god or jesus. Makes me sick to think that they supposedly go to hell but all these rapists and murderers that go to prison and supposedly find god and get saved go to heaven. I mean, no one would want to go to a place like that. Think about it though, the devil was in heaven, so why wouldnt other kinds of "evil" be there too? if its real and all.

They claim "god is good" and I just don't see it at all. If there is a god that allows innocent to suffer while demanding love and attention from everyone "or else" then that is not good being in my honest opinion. If the is the kind of "god" to be worshiped then count me out lol!

Exactly.

If there is a god, I'd like to think he's better than what the bible has shown...

[Falconer02]

GOD is so good, HE created us, gave us HIS breathe - and than gave us free will, we can choose to sin or not to sin???
we can choose hell or choose heaven and we have that choice until we die... HE is so amazing!!!

Angel- I have a question for you and you only. I've mentioned this question before on this forum and would like to hear your response. If your god is eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipotent, etc. and yet he grants us free will, is that not contradictory? I mean if he knows everything, that means he knows precisely what everyone will do which is not granting us free will to choose anything. Considering that, he knows who is going to hell and who isn't from the get-go since he knows past, present, and future. With this reasoning, nobody chooses anything because it's already set in stone due to him knowing everything. So ultimately there is no free will. Isn't that pretty careless and amazingly evil to let this imperfect world happen? Is it that, or is he not able to do some of these things rendering him imperfect and not all-knowing/powerful/etc.?