The thread for those who don't know the trinity.

[teflonfanatic]

The scripture is Hebrews 1:9

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The anointed One, the same as the Hebrew Messiah; and he is here said to be 'anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows.'

None was ever constituted prophet, priest, and king, but himself: some were kings only, prophets only, and priests only; others were kings and priests, or priests and prophets, or kings and prophets; but none had ever the three offices in his own person but Jesus Christ; and none but himself can be a King over the universe, a Prophet to all intelligent beings, and a Priest to the whole human race. Thus he is infinitely exalted beyond his fellows - all that had ever borne the regal, prophetic, or sacerdotal offices. http://bible.cc/hebrews/1-9.htm

As for this comment

I know all the Jesus being referred as God scriptures, as those scriptures just prove God exalted Jesus to a more superior position

http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesus.html

That's all I have to say on the subject.

Go back 2 verses the context is comparing Jesus to angels and not men or contrasting which ever one you choose either way it's not necessary for the most high to get compared or contrasted with angels.

Seems like this going into a theological conversation instead of just a trinity conversation heck i'm not even talking to a trinitarian anymore meh so be it.

Before I go about answering the link I want to give you the greater David, Moses and Solomon scriptures as I see that you think it might be just a cult thing that's not scriptural.

Greater then Moses(Deuteronomy 15-19)
Greater then David(Luke 1:32)
Greater then Solomon(Matthew 12:42)

Now on to your link with scriptures about Jesus divinity(which he has because God gave it to him) and i'll sort out the truth and falsehood of the links arguments below.

Although the title "Son of Man" may seem fairly innocuous, it is, in fact, a title of the Messiah, of whom the book of Daniel claims that all people will serve and that His kingdom would never end:

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)

Obviously, if the Son of Man were only human, He would not be able to establish an eternal kingdom. Likewise, He would not be able to convince all peoples to serve Him. Such abilities and honors are reserved for God alone.

TRUTH: Son of man is definitely a title of the messiah(we means the anointed one) and he isn't only human. Both are true and wholeheartedly agree the arian theology is Jesus is Michael the archangel but not an incarnate angel. He wasn't fully human and fully spirit or angel at the same time.

FALSEHOOD: Jesus does NOT convince all peoples to serve him. Judas, the pharisees, are just some type of people that didn't serve him. It's possible all in this scripture just doesn't mean all, just like Jesus having the name that's above every name doesn't mean his name is higher then his father's. Instead it means majority. Jesus dominion and kingdom is eternal but it is GIVEN TO HIM by the father as this verse shows and He gives it back after the 1,000 year reign(1 Corinthians 15:28), thus it never ends. Not to mention he has co-rulers following this logic your forced to conclude born again/saints are also the almighty God as they also rule as long as Christ rules. (Revelation 20:6)

The Bible makes the direct claim that Jesus is the Son of God.1  Many others, including the disciples,2 a Roman Centurion,3 angels,4 demons5, John the Baptist,6 Martha,7 Saul (Paul),8 and the Ethiopian Eunich9 make the same claim. Others said that Jesus Himself made the claim to be the Son of God.10 The gospels also indicate that Jesus Himself made the statement or acknowledged that He was the Son of God many times.11

Virtually all cults will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, as if the title confers no special meaning or only second class status. This assumption is unrealistic, since no other prophet ever called himself the Son of God. The Jewish leaders of the time knew exactly what this title implied - that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself:

For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

Claiming to be the Son of God also conferred the title of Messiah or the anointed One. Psalm 2 talks about the Messiah (mashiach), whom it says is God's Son.12 This great messianic Psalm warns the reader to do homage to the Son and take refuge in Him,13 since He will rule the nations and judge the earth.14

TRUTH: Claiming to be the Son of God conferred the title of Messiah or the anionted One. No arguments there your definitely unchristian if you don't acknowledge that.

FALSEHOOD The Jews knew Jesus saying he was the son of God was claiming equality with God. There's some serious problems with this argument.
1. One no one has ever used this phrase before Jesus so to say Jews knew that is a bit of a stretch. 2. Pharisees where false Jews would you really trust Satan's children on an issue like this?  3. You shouldn't be saying the Lord's prayer if you believe what the Pharisees thought about Jesus. Also Jesus was "the son of God" long before he came to Earth(John 8:38) He also goes on to stay he was sent by the father(the father made him messenger).

The Bible says that Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah - the anointed One of God. Jesus Himself made the claim or acknowledged that He was the Messiah.15 The title is especially significant with regard to the question at hand - is Jesus God? The Old Testament tells us that the Messiah is God and the eternal Father:

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

Other prophecies of the Old Testament tell us that the Messiah would be God:

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness. (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

The title, "The LORD Our Righteousness" indicates that the Messiah is God. The Hebrew word translated "LORD" is yhvh (Yahweh), which is the personal name of God.

TRUTH: The scripture is indeed saying what it says.

FALSEHOOD: The most high is El shaddai not just El Gibbor and nowhere in the bible is the father or even the holy spirit presented as a PRINCE More importantly Gabriel's name translates to mighty God so following this logic the bible claims an angel as "mighty God" this is in perfect harmony with (Psalms 103:20) which calls the angels mighty.  Jesus replaces Adam so that's how he is "the eternal father" he's also the greater Solomon so that's why he's the "wonderful counselor". I believe Jehovah will become king again after Jesus hands over the kingdom to his father and Jesus and his co-rulers will all be princes and priests for all eternity.

The Lord our righteousness argument is fallacious. Many people had names with God's name or even part of it. They simply were being used by God so God's name was in them such as Nehemiah which means God comforts the link here provides a ton of other names that have at least a part of God's name in their name even another person named Jesus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlN0omtviC8

As I already stated Jesus rules as king and then gives it back to his father(1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

Jesus claimed to have many of the attributes that God alone possess. Jesus claimed to have sent the prophets:

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (Matthew 23:34)

However, the Old Testament indicates that God sent the prophets.16 Therefore, Jesus was claiming the authority that was previously reserved only for God.

Jesus claimed that His origins are from heaven, whereas men are from the world:

"And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. (John 3:13)
And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. (John 8:23)
Not only did Jesus claim to come from heaven, but He said that it was "my kingdom" Isn't heaven God's kingdom?

that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30)
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (John 18:36)
Jesus claimed to have existed before He was born in Bethlehem:

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. (John 8:58-59)

The claim included the term "I am" - a reference God made of Himself when talking to Moses.17 The Jews immediately recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God and attempted to stone Him.

Jesus also claimed to have existed "before the world began":

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5)

This statement is an obvious claim to deity. Not only did Jesus claim to exist before the creation of the universe, but He claimed to share the glory of God! Jesus also claimed that He had "all authority... in heaven and on earth" and that everything of God was His.18

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)

Jesus claimed to be the supreme judge who will exercise all judgment.19 However, there are at least 50 verses in the Bible that claim that Jehovah God will judge the earth (see Who Will Judge Mankind?). Jesus claimed to be the one to separate the "sheep from the goats".20 However, the book of Ezekiel says that Jehovah God will do this.21 Jesus claimed to be the resurrection and the life.22 He said that He would personally raise everyone from the dead.23 These are all attributes of God.

Jesus claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath,24 although the Bible indicates that God held such title.25

Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins.26 Even the Jews recognized that this was a function of God alone.27

Jesus claimed that He would return in the clouds in glory.28 Isaiah makes the same claim for Jehovah God.29 Obviously, Jesus was making a claim to deity.

Jesus claimed to be the light of the world who provides salvation.30 In the Psalms, David tells us that Jehovah God is our light and salvation.31 Jesus also claimed to be the way to life32 - an assertion that is made for God.33 Jesus said that He was the one who searched the hearts and minds,34 gives eternal life,35 and rewards those who follow Him.36 All of these characteristics are found only in God.37, 38, 39

Jesus said He was the good shepherd,40 who searches for His sheep.41 These are claims made of God in the Old Testament.42, 43 Jesus claimed to be the fountain of living water.44 This is a clear reference to what God said of Himself as recorded by the prophet Jeremiah.45 Jesus said He would give rest to those who found Him.46 The same claim is made of God in the book of Exodus.47

Jesus claimed to send the Holy Spirit (Helper).48 The same claim is made for God.49 Jesus said that He raised Himself from the dead,50 even though the Bible says that God did it.51 Among Jesus' parting words, He told His disciples to baptize new followers in "the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)

It should be noted that the other two names (Father and Holy Spirit) are names for God. In fact, the text says specifically that they should be baptized in the name (singular), not names, of the three persons mentioned. In order to be one name, they must all represent God. Jesus claimed that His disciples would be unable to do anything of significance without His power. Such a statement is a clear claim of divine power.

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)

TRUTH: Everything presented above is true as this proves that all authority has been GIVEN to him in heaven and earth.

FALSEHOOD: I'll number the points in the order they were said.

1. Jesus claimed to have many of the attributes that God alone possess. Jesus claimed to have sent the prophets:

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (Matthew 23:34)

However, the Old Testament indicates that God sent the prophets.16 Therefore, Jesus was claiming the authority that was previously reserved only for God.

Jesus is the head of the Christian congregation/church so naturally he can send prophets. Jesus was also sinless and Adam and Eve was also sinless(for a time) of course that didn't make them the almighty God.

2. Jesus claimed that His origins are from heaven, whereas men are from the world:

"And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. (John 3:13)
And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. (John 8:23)

Following this logic the angels were not made in heaven because they never claimed there from heaven!!!!! Moreover Jesus having a prehuman existence doesn't make Jesus the almighty God anymore then the angels.

3. Not only did Jesus claim to come from heaven, but He said that it was "my kingdom" Isn't heaven God's kingdom?

that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30)
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (John 18:36)

Who gave him the "throne of David again"? And does he hand it back? Using this logic I can claim that my mom gave me life, and since she gave me life she can make the faulty argument of claiming she's God because only God can give life. This is a serious problem IF SHE IGNORES THE SOURCE

To save room this link goes to another thread where I made one post with most if not all Trinity texts, it has Modalist arguments to. http://fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=15895.msg193131#msg193131

[shernajwine]

Ok, I'm going to be honest here and say that, that was too much information for my brain at the moment. Maybe I can come back tomorrow when my head isn't pounding and read it again. Also, I am weary of religious circular arguments.

But I will say this. It boggles my mind that if a JW is told they are not Christian they get offended. Yet they are constantly trying to convert other Christians to their own way of believing. It doesn't make any sense. I am not saying that you are doing this, you are simply posting in a debate forum I get that. But these very sweet ladies come to my door every month at very inconvenient times despite the fact that I have told them I have a church, I am deeply involved in the ministry of my church body, and I gave them the name and location of my church.

Why do they insist on continuing to come to my door with their Watchtower material and expect me to read all of it when they themselves will not except material from me because it's considered apostasy and they fear dis-fellowship! Why are other "Christians" trying to convert me out of my Christianity??

If you don't want to believe that Jesus is God that's fine with me. I can present the gospel to how I understand and you can take it or leave it. When the bible says to "tell the good news" it doesn't mean to harass and badger people to your own way of thinking (Again I'm not saying you are doing this) It means to be a living example of God's saving grace and be vessel of his love to his creation.

So I can read your material and respond as I have been doing, but in the end....are you going to change your ideas of who Jesus is? Not likely, and neither will I because there is a rebuttal to both sides of this issue for every example you can bring up and the debate will never end, nobody wins.

[teflonfanatic]

Ok, I'm going to be honest here and say that, that was too much information for my brain at the moment. Maybe I can come back tomorrow when my head isn't pounding and read it again. Also, I am weary of religious circular arguments.

But I will say this. It boggles my mind that if a JW is told they are not Christian they get offended. Yet they are constantly trying to convert other Christians to their own way of believing. It doesn't make any sense. I am not saying that you are doing this, you are simply posting in a debate forum I get that. But these very sweet ladies come to my door every month at very inconvenient times despite the fact that I have told them I have a church, I am deeply involved in the ministry of my church body, and I gave them the name and location of my church.

Why do they insist on continuing to come to my door with their Watchtower material and expect me to read all of it when they themselves will not except material from me because it's considered apostasy and they fear dis-fellowship! Why are other "Christians" trying to convert me out of my Christianity??

If you don't want to believe that Jesus is God that's fine with me. I can present the gospel to how I understand and you can take it or leave it. When the bible says to "tell the good news" it doesn't mean to harass and badger people to your own way of thinking (Again I'm not saying you are doing this) It means to be a living example of God's saving grace and be vessel of his love to his creation.

So I can read your material and respond as I have been doing, but in the end....are you going to change your ideas of who Jesus is? Not likely, and neither will I because there is a rebuttal to both sides of this issue for every example you can bring up and the debate will never end, nobody wins.

I know this and yes it's a fault in the JW preaching work, the line between pestering someone and preaching to someone is not clear, they might leave for Good if you say(DON'T COME BACK), that's what a Jewish lady told me and I never went back there. I'm willing to change my ideas of Jesus if there is hard proof of scripture about it and doesn't contradict the rest of scripture. I believe there's an element of truth in all the doctrines but there's also an element of contradiction to. If you can't respond to all my points in one post then respond to some of them in one post. Also I've received a KJ, and NIV bible from non JW's. I'm not sure if accepting literature is grounds for DF'ing but I know it's highly discouraged.

P.S. Receiving different bible translations is the only religious non JW literature that's not looked down upon. 

[shernajwine]

I know this and yes it's a fault in the JW preaching work, the line between pestering someone and preaching to someone is not clear, they might leave for Good if you say(DON'T COME BACK), that's what a Jewish lady told me and I never went back there. I'm willing to change my ideas of Jesus if there is hard proof of scripture about it and doesn't contradict the rest of scripture. I believe there's an element of truth in all the doctrines but there's also an element of contradiction to. If you can't respond to all my points then some of them in one post not all. Also I've received a KJ, and NIV bible from non JW's. I'm sure if accepting literature is grounds for DF'ing but I know it's highly discouraged.

I don't want to tell them (DON'T COME BACK) I'm just not that kind of person.

Here's the thing, I don't think it's important that you do change your ideas. If you believe that Jesus' perfect sacrifice saves you from the burden of sin, if you live your life being a living testimony of God's saving grace and life transforming spirit, then why does doctrine matter?

I believe that JW's have misinterpreted scripture, you believe other denominations have done the same. But rather than quibble about different interpretations can we agree on some foundational things? Jesus saves! Jesus' sacrifice and the acceptance of that passionate act changes peoples lives?

The main problem I have with JW is that it seems that your faith is based on works. If you don't knock on enough people's doors and do this and do that then metaphorically speaking "you have points deducted". That is biblically incorrect. We are justified by faith not works. Works follow those who have faith because our hearts are tuned to what God wants and he wants us to help the poor, the unfortunate, the broken, the hurting, the starving, the homeless. We have a burden for people to know that here is hope. The bible says you will know them by their fruit; but the fruit doesn't save you.

You could be another Billy Graham like person and bring in millions of people who get saved. That's GREAT, but it doesn't get weighed on a scale of good vs bad works. It doesn't tally up points for every soul you witness to, what matters is that you have faith and because you have faith you are justified. Because you have faith you can stand before God sinless.

[teflonfanatic]

I know this and yes it's a fault in the JW preaching work, the line between pestering someone and preaching to someone is not clear, they might leave for Good if you say(DON'T COME BACK), that's what a Jewish lady told me and I never went back there. I'm willing to change my ideas of Jesus if there is hard proof of scripture about it and doesn't contradict the rest of scripture. I believe there's an element of truth in all the doctrines but there's also an element of contradiction to. If you can't respond to all my points then some of them in one post not all. Also I've received a KJ, and NIV bible from non JW's. I'm sure if accepting literature is grounds for DF'ing but I know it's highly discouraged.

I don't want to tell them (DON'T COME BACK) I'm just not that kind of person.

Here's the thing, I don't think it's important that you do change your ideas. If you believe that Jesus' perfect sacrifice saves you from the burden of sin, if you live your life being a living testimony of God's saving grace and life transforming spirit, then why does doctrine matter?

I believe that JW's have misinterpreted scripture, you believe other denominations have done the same. But rather than quibble about different interpretations can we agree on some foundational things? Jesus saves! Jesus' sacrifice and the acceptance of that passionate act changes peoples lives?

The main problem I have with JW is that it seems that your faith is based on works. If you don't knock on enough people's doors and do this and do that then metaphorically speaking "you have points deducted". That is biblically incorrect. We are justified by faith not works. Works follow those who have faith because our hearts are tuned to what God wants and he wants us to help the poor, the unfortunate, the broken, the hurting, the starving, the homeless. We have a burden for people to know that here is hope. The bible says you will know them by their fruit; but the fruit doesn't save you.

You could be another Billy Graham like person and bring in millions of people who get saved. That's GREAT, but it doesn't get weighed on a scale of good vs bad works. It doesn't tally up points for every soul you witness to, what matters is that you have faith and because you have faith you are justified. Because you have faith you can stand before God sinless.

Let's say people believe Jesus saves and Died for our sins, yet says Jesus was an Earthly ruler who killed millions of people and promoted human trafficking and aided sex rites. Now is their doctrine correct even though they believe in the Jesus?

The faith is based on works is a common accusation towards JW's, this is because people think it's burdensome or forced in some way. The truth is it's 100% voluntary to do this, it's because of the faith that the JW's preach not to do works to get faith. You'll have a very hard time ignoring the works that people did back then because of their faith(Hebrews 11:4–12:1). Just like actions speak louder then words faith without works is dead(James 2:14-26). I agree with there is not yard stick to Good or bad works.

[shernajwine]

Let's say people believe Jesus saves and Died for our sins, yet says Jesus was an Earthly ruler who killed millions of people and promoted human trafficking and aided sex rites. Now is their doctrine correct even though they believe in the Jesus?

No their doctrine is not correct, but are the fruits of that belief contradictory to what a Christians life is supposed to look like? If I believed such a doctrine I would more than likely feel that human trafficking and killing is perfectly acceptable. Since I submitted my life to a person who did such things. Living a life of human trafficking and killing would contradict a Christian's life as laid out in scripture, that belief would be dangerous AND if a person believed this, it would not be based in the foundation of the bible. Thereby being anti Christian and hence not a doctrine of the Christian faith.

The faith is based on works is a common accusation towards JW's, this is because people think it's burdensome or forced in some way.

Well I have never been a JW but I do know some ex JW's and they are the ones that explained this particular aspect of JW practice. So maybe it differs depending on the particular group a person is a member of. Just like some pentecostal church's adhere to strict dress codes based on their belief, others are more liberal in that manner but still call themselves by the same name.

[teflonfanatic]

Let's say people believe Jesus saves and Died for our sins, yet says Jesus was an Earthly ruler who killed millions of people and promoted human trafficking and aided sex rites. Now is their doctrine correct even though they believe in the Jesus?

No their doctrine is not correct, but are the fruits of that belief contradictory to what a Christians life is supposed to look like? If I believed such a doctrine I would more than likely feel that human trafficking and killing is perfectly acceptable. Since I submitted my life to a person who did such things. Living a life of human trafficking and killing would contradict a Christian's life as laid out in scripture, that belief would be dangerous AND if a person believed this, it would not be based in the foundation of the bible. Thereby being anti Christian and hence not a doctrine of the Christian faith.

The faith is based on works is a common accusation towards JW's, this is because people think it's burdensome or forced in some way.

Well I have never been a JW but I do know some ex JW's and they are the ones that explained this particular aspect of JW practice. So maybe it differs depending on the particular group a person is a member of. Just like some pentecostal church's adhere to strict dress codes based on their belief, others are more liberal in that manner but still call themselves by the same name.

Your first comment alone points out the seriousness of correct doctrine, at the same time being dogmatic is unfruitful.

Question for your second comment what is the same name they call themselves?

[shernajwine]

Your first comment alone points out the seriousness of correct doctrine, at the same time being dogmatic is unfruitful.

That belief makes it an unchristian doctrine which doesn't apply to what I said in my earlier post about doctrine not mattering. I'm not going to argue with a baptist over the trinity because it doesn't matter to salvation what a person believes in that regard. A person believing something that causes them to kill people and traffic human beings is not based on any scripture. Tell me, is what I believe (that Jesus is God) causing me to live my life in such a way that is contrary to the life of a person of Christian faith? Absolutely not. Is your belief (that Jesus isn't God) causing you to live your life in such a way that is contrary to the life of a person of Christian faith?

I rest my case.

Question for your second comment what is the same name they call themselves?

Um Pentecostal

[teflonfanatic]

Your first comment alone points out the seriousness of correct doctrine, at the same time being dogmatic is unfruitful.

That belief makes it an unchristian doctrine which doesn't apply to what I said in my earlier post about doctrine not mattering. I'm not going to argue with a baptist over the trinity because it doesn't matter to salvation what a person believes in that regard. A person believing something that causes them to kill people and traffic human beings is not based on any scripture. Tell me, is what I believe (that Jesus is God) causing me to live my life in such a way that is contrary to the life of a person of Christian faith? Absolutely not. Is your belief (that Jesus isn't God) causing you to live your life in such a way that is contrary to the life of a person of Christian faith?

I rest my case.

Question for your second comment what is the same name they call themselves?

Um Pentecostal

For your first comment:  Depending on how zealous a person is they might conclude living a Christian life is not enough and conclude everything must be right not one detail should be false. I'm zealous enough to challenge doctrine but i'm not going to say your not saved because you don't belief X doctrine. I think that's when the person becomes over zealous.

For your second comment: I should have known that, just out of curiousity what other differences are their between the pentecostals.

[shernajwine]

For your first comment:  Depending on how zealous a person is they might conclude living a Christian life is not enough and conclude everything must be right not one detail should be false. I'm zealous enough to challenge doctrine but i'm not going to say your not saved because you don't belief X doctrine. I think that's when the person becomes over zealous.

That was exactly my point to begin with. Although I don't necessarily have a problem with being zealous, Paul actually says to be zealous. But case in point, the Westboro Baptist Church. Almost unanimously the Christian community and the secular community puts this so called church in a whole other catagory. They are actually considered a cult of Christianity. They preach a message contrary to the gospel and fanatically spread their message of hate for no other reason than to harass people. They themselves claim they do not wish to convert people. They are just called by their faith to let everyone know that God hates them and they are going to hell.

I also read recently that there are Christian atheists. The TERM is itself contradictory, what is their doctrine? Jesus taught good moral lessons and the bible is a story book. It makes no sense. They follow none of the foundations of Christian faith but still hold the name. Those are the types of groups that I would not say, doctrine doesn't matter. But like I said earlier.....foundational beliefs:

Christ was the son of God
He died on the cross for our sin
Believe on him, call on him and you shall be saved

If we can agree on that, then although the details may differ between the lines, that foundation is the whole message of the gospel.

For your second comment: I should have known that, just out of curiousity what other differences are their between the pentecostals.

Well, I don't know really. I have mostly attended non denominational churches that stemmed from pentecostal or apostalic roots. My mom grew up not being allowed to cut her hair, go swimming in public, go to the movies, wear pants or make up, have her ears pierced and things and like that. My church that I attend now used to be an apostalic church, they decided to move away from the strict rules that applied to that denomination and changed their name and became non denominational however, the core group of the church that still attends (the pastor and his family included) all still follow some of the apostalic tradition. The women wear their hair up, they don't wear pants or make up, the men don't grow their hair long or grow facial hair, and neither sex wears jewelry. It's something that is a personal conviction to them I guess it's just not something preached behind the pulpit. Although they themselves follow that type of lifestyle they don't believe a person goes to hell if they don't do the same.

I wear make up, pants, jewelry, have tattoos, piercings and cut my hair. Yet they love me and I hold positions within the church.

And I think there may be some difference in eschatological beliefs between the pentacostal denominations but that is probably the case in all the different sects of Christianity. I have attended the same type of church's and found all three different tribulation beliefs (pre mid and post) and the church I attend now, the core group (the people from the apostalic days of the church that still attend) believe there is no rapture at all.

There are so many different ideas out there it's impossible to know all the differences between them.

[teflonfanatic]

For your first comment:  Depending on how zealous a person is they might conclude living a Christian life is not enough and conclude everything must be right not one detail should be false. I'm zealous enough to challenge doctrine but i'm not going to say your not saved because you don't belief X doctrine. I think that's when the person becomes over zealous.

That was exactly my point to begin with. Although I don't necessarily have a problem with being zealous, Paul actually says to be zealous. But case in point, the Westboro Baptist Church. Almost unanimously the Christian community and the secular community puts this so called church in a whole other catagory. They are actually considered a cult of Christianity. They preach a message contrary to the gospel and fanatically spread their message of hate for no other reason than to harass people. They themselves claim they do not wish to convert people. They are just called by their faith to let everyone know that God hates them and they are going to hell.

I also read recently that there are Christian atheists. The TERM is itself contradictory, what is their doctrine? Jesus taught good moral lessons and the bible is a story book. It makes no sense. They follow none of the foundations of Christian faith but still hold the name. Those are the types of groups that I would not say, doctrine doesn't matter. But like I said earlier.....foundational beliefs:

Christ was the son of God
He died on the cross for our sin
Believe on him, call on him and you shall be saved

If we can agree on that, then although the details may differ between the lines, that foundation is the whole message of the gospel.

For your second comment: I should have known that, just out of curiousity what other differences are their between the pentecostals.

Well, I don't know really. I have mostly attended non denominational churches that stemmed from pentecostal or apostalic roots. My mom grew up not being allowed to cut her hair, go swimming in public, go to the movies, wear pants or make up, have her ears pierced and things and like that. My church that I attend now used to be an apostalic church, they decided to move away from the strict rules that applied to that denomination and changed their name and became non denominational however, the core group of the church that still attends (the pastor and his family included) all still follow some of the apostalic tradition. The women wear their hair up, they don't wear pants or make up, the men don't grow their hair long or grow facial hair, and neither sex wears jewelry. It's something that is a personal conviction to them I guess it's just not something preached behind the pulpit. Although they themselves follow that type of lifestyle they don't believe a person goes to hell if they don't do the same.

I wear make up, pants, jewelry, have tattoos, piercings and cut my hair. Yet they love me and I hold positions within the church.

And I think there may be some difference in eschatological beliefs between the pentacostal denominations but that is probably the case in all the different sects of Christianity. I have attended the same type of church's and found all three different tribulation beliefs (pre mid and post) and the church I attend now, the core group (the people from the apostalic days of the church that still attend) believe there is no rapture at all.

There are so many different ideas out there it's impossible to know all the differences between them.

There's no differences as far as standards and doctrine for JW's around the world. But I noticed that there are differences behind church groups.  The JW's also don't wear facial hair, tattoos and piercings i'm not sure and the men can't grow their hair long that's where are similarities end. Oh well and that Jesus died for our sins(the instrument of death is different however), he's the son of God and you ask for the father in his name. Differences are that JW's can go to movies and swim but it's best to go in a group and make sure the movie doesn't have too much violence or cursing etc. Woman can wear makeup and wear pants and jewelry.

P.S. As far as westboro church goes they are destroying themselves by taking the judgment out of God's hands, we'll get judged in the same matter we judge others!!!!!!!!!!!

[shernajwine]

P.S. As far as westboro church goes they are destroying themselves by taking the judgment out of God's hands, we'll get judged in the same matter we judge others!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with that 100%. Although my heart genuinely hurts for them because they live such a volatile belief. To believe that the god you serve has such pure hatred in him for the entire world  ...and to believe that's it's your mission to spread the message of his hate?  I don't know, it seems like a very oppressive life to live. If only they understood how much God loves ALL the world, it's more liberating than anything, I think, to know how much God loves us.

But their leader is a man full of hatred and so his "god" reflects what he wants him to be. A god sent to judge everyone who has ever done him wrong, and everyone he disagrees with. Good thing Fred Phelps god isn't real.