I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[cnoel]

Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...

I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev...   Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now?  I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...

Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists.  People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them.  They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe.  People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever.  It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.

It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess.  Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000.  Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.

The 144,000 are Jews, as mstachitus says.  If you keep reading in the same chapter, it tells of a multitude which no man can number.  They who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.  That is the redeemed (saved).

I haven't forgotten our other discussion mstachistus, I've been in and out today, but think I will have some time tomorrow.  From what I read, there is very little I interpret differently than you do.  We seem to agree on a lot.  

My understanding is the 144-thousand go to Heaven, Governed under King Jesus, to rule over the earth where the holy ones shall be resurrected to live in peace without war, without hunger.  A world of no Freewill.  Almost sounds like it is not worth living.  But with our minds wiped of all we know and born fresh, we won’t care because we can’t miss what we never have or know of.

[sflynt]

Never doubt God - that is what Lucifer wants you to do.
God created balance in the universe
Good and Evil
Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge
The Dove and The Snake
God shall sleep a thousand of HIS YEARS to allow Lucifer to reign over man to prove to Lucifer that at least one shall keep faith in God and if so, then God shall smit Lucifer, if not then mankind shall be forever ruled by Hell
The last day of Lucifer's reign will be when the last of the 144 thousand has entered Heaven.
Remember when Lucifer fell from Grace one third of Heaven followed - that makes for a lot of bad from the get-go

If we never doubt god, how do we ever learn/grow? I've found that by taking myself out of the whole religous thing and looking at everything from a nonbiased perspective, I can see things so much clearer. I have so much room to grow and learn. I can see things completely differently than I did before. I can actually see both sides now.
When all the religion did was cloud my mind. Made me get all defensive when someone disagreed with me, when the only reason I got so defensive was because in the back of my mind I knew they were right.
also, it Made me feel guilty for being.... natural. Does that make sense?

I don't agree that god created balance in the universe. (even if I believed in god, I wouldn't agree to that.)

Also your last statement about when lucifer fell from grace, 1/3rd of heaven followed... yeah, that just proves my point that the bad people get to heaven then, when saved of course. (rapists, murderers, molesters/and the like) Why would anyone want to be apart of that?

I agree with most of your other post... I do think that when you type it the expression (thus meaning) may not be how it is taken... 

but I don't agree with everything in this post... the 1/3rd that followed where never human... they where angels who decided to follow Lucifer... although you are correct in stating that rapist, murderers, molesters/and the like can go to Heaven...  but only if they sincerely believe in Jesus death and resurrection for their sins...  While I don't understand it or agree with it... it is not for me to decide... That is where faith comes in... I let God make those kinds of decisions... I try to think of as worrying about my own biz...

You point of doubting God... while understandable... I have had times that I questioned or didn't understand why?? but that is the devil trying to come between God and you because the only person who can separate you from God is you...  So, the devil just keeps nagging at you until you walk away from God and then the Devil wins... and 1st off I don't trust that man... 2nd off I don't want to live my life without God... and I dang sure don't want to live in Hell for eternity...

To be natural is human and we will always be human... NO ONE will ever be perfect...  The thing is in God's eyes all our sins are equal... yea that is crazy... to think that my smoking is equal to a child molester... but it is so in God's eyes... While I don't have all the answers (only God does) I can say that he has always been there for me... like no other... I put my trust and faith in him... I seek him with all my heart and beg him to keep me from leaving his way... Yea I feel guilty when I do stay from his commands, but I know that is the Holy Spirit... sorta like when you parents scolded you for breaking the rules... Did they love you any less?  Did they put you out?  I know I know... some people did have parents that put them out... but for the majority it is a good anology of the kind of Love God has for his children... Like I said I don't have all the answers... but I do know that turning my back on God because of some guilt over something I did wrong is not an option for me personally...

Thank you for responding. 

I was always afraid of going to hell too. Then realized that was the only reason I fell into believing it. Because I was a little kid that didn't know any better and when told that I'd burn in hell for not following their beliefs, I was like, "okay! I don't want to burn in hell." I just can't for the life of me believe that smoking is considered the same as murdering. (in god's eyes or my eyes) That doesnt make sense to me. or as you stated above, "Yea that is crazy." Why wouldn't people question it? Even you think its crazy. Can you really blame non-believers for thinking its crazy?
 

Even though that 1/3rd wasn't human, doesn't change the fact that evil is/can get into heaven. I still keep an open mind though. Because I believe that anything is possible. Their very well could be a god... and I'm still trying to find my path. I also don't see how he's always been there for you/me/or anyone else. How is he there? If god loved us so much why would he let so many innocent wonderful people suffer? Sorry, I have lots of questions...

...but I have to get back to work for now...

[teflonfanatic]

Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...

I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev...   Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now?  I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...

Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists.  People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them.  They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe.  People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever.  It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.

It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess.  Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000.  Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.

I don't like that people always think the JW's make the final judgment, in the end God will judge people through his holy anointed(Jesus) with Jesus co-rulers(the 144K born again) to judge the twelve tribes of Israel(all mankind)(Matthew 19:27-29). This doesn't happen until the thousand year reign, not now it's true the JW's know they are teaching bible truths but to say they have the authority to judge who gets saved before the 1,000 year reign is slander at best.

For all those that think the 144K(who will rule as kings with Christ for 1,000 years) are all Hebrews or Israelites, then please explain how they are from every tribe, tongue, people and nation(Revelation 5:9-10)

[Annella]

Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...

I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev...   Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now?  I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...

Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists.  People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them.  They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe.  People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever.  It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.

It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess.  Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000.  Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.

I don't like that people always think the JW's make the final judgment, in the end God will judge people through his holy anointed(Jesus) with Jesus co-rulers(the 144K born again) to judge the twelve tribes of Israel(all mankind)(Matthew 19:27-29). This doesn't happen until the thousand year reign, not now it's true the JW's know they are teaching bible truths but to say they have the authority to judge who gets saved before the 1,000 year reign is slander at best.

For all those that think the 144K(who will rule as kings with Christ for 1,000 years) are all Hebrews or Israelites, then please explain how they are from every tribe, tongue, people and nation(Revelation 5:9-10)

You and I have been over this on another thread with scripture and such, so you know we disagree.  I will not get into it a second time with you.  Someone else may want to challenge you though.  The ones from every tribe, tongue, and nation are the multitude without number in Revelations Chapter 7 (the redeemed of the earth). During the 1,000 years of peace, they (us that are saved), will rule and reign with him on earth.

[teflonfanatic]

Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...

I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev...   Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now?  I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...

Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists.  People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them.  They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe.  People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever.  It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.

It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess.  Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000.  Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.

I don't like that people always think the JW's make the final judgment, in the end God will judge people through his holy anointed(Jesus) with Jesus co-rulers(the 144K born again) to judge the twelve tribes of Israel(all mankind)(Matthew 19:27-29). This doesn't happen until the thousand year reign, not now it's true the JW's know they are teaching bible truths but to say they have the authority to judge who gets saved before the 1,000 year reign is slander at best.

For all those that think the 144K(who will rule as kings with Christ for 1,000 years) are all Hebrews or Israelites, then please explain how they are from every tribe, tongue, people and nation(Revelation 5:9-10)

You and I have been over this on another thread with scripture and such, so you know we disagree.  I will not get into it a second time with you.  Someone else may want to challenge you though.  The ones from every tribe, tongue, and nation are the multitude without number in Revelations Chapter 7 (the redeemed of the earth). During the 1,000 years of peace, they (us that are saved), will rule and reign with him on earth.

Annela please go to my trinity thread i'm far more passive there, in fact I don't debate at all or insinuate anything in that thread. Annela in order for me to believe that I need to see where in Revelation is the multitude singing or to rule with Christ, praises are not singing many in ancient Israel praised God without singing. people this is not me inferring the bible says the 144K(that is the born again get their reward FIRST and corule with Christ for 1,000 years)

Revelation 20:5-6 Reads 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

How is it that the dead didn't get life until the thousand year reign ended? If you look at the context of these two verses the co rulers get immortality before the ones in the second resurrection(that is the multitude in Revelation 7 also in Revelation 7 the 144K are sealed before the great crowd are mentioned meaning they got their reward first). Also cross reference the above verse with 1 Corinthians 15:23 and Revelation 14:1-4 to see that the 144K are also the firstfruits.

Another question is how are BILLIONS of people going to judge each other? That's one of the few things the bible mentions about heavenly duties remember the born again go to heaven before they use their authority!!!!! 1 Corinthians 6:1-3

@Annela: You don't have to feel compelled or forced to post every other day to my responses you can post every 2 to 3 weeks for all I care, and I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.

[jcribb16]

Quote from teflonfanatic:
I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.



Teflonfanatic,  I would first like to say that some of your posts are confusing in the way you jump back and forth with different ideas, Scripture, and answers.  So, if I am responding to something here that is not in conjunction with what you really are meaning here, then please forgive me.  I am responding to what I think you are talking about.

In Revelation 22:6 it says, "And he (one of the 7 angels, verse 9) said unto me (John, while in vision), 'These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.' "  This is indicative of duties to be done.

Regarding awards: Jesus, Himself, says in Revelation 22:12, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."  Jesus also says in Matthew 5:12 (for people who are persecuted and reviled, vs. 10,11), "Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."  I Corinthians 3:8,9 says, "Now he that planteth and he that wateresth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

There is more, but I just want to be sure I'm on the same wavelength as you are.

[Annella]

Teflonfanatic, this is a public forum, and I can post whenever I like.  I most certainly disagree with how you interpret scripture.  That's why you do not want me to post.  While you like to stay in prophecy a lot, it really is not a "Salvational" issue.  You have the teachings of the JW that you are pushing on people, and that's confusing.  God is not the author of confusion.

While I understand the 1,000 year reign of peace, that is NOT the new heaven and new earth.  There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace).  The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time.

As far as the righteous judgement where the redeemed will receive their rewards is "The Judgement Seat of Christ" (not the great White Throne Judgement).  This takes place after the rapture, and combined with the Marriage supper of the Lamb.  Remember that some dead in Christ rise from the grave during the rapture.  The dead in Christ shall rise FIRST, and then us who are remaining shall rise also together with them to ever be with the Lord. That is the First resurrection.

You have a lot of time periods and dispensations running all together during one dispensation.  However, prophecy is interpreted through many time dispensations.  While some scriptures have past, present, and future happenings in them, it does not mean that they are happening all at once.  God does not live in a time boundary as we do.  He is eternal.  According to Him, we are already raptured, and praising Him around the Throne, among other things. His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways.

The redeemed in the first resurrection (in the grave or alive) will reign with Christ during the 1,000 years of peace. They most certainlydo have duties and rewards given to them.  What I have noticed is you say nothing of the rapture.  Do you believe in such?

Your hostility towards me is unfounded.  Only because I questioned your interpretation of Holy Scriptures?  Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is.  You pick and choose a lot of scriptures and throw them out, but they have little or nothing to do with the subject or the dispensation being addressed.  Also, like I said before, prophecy (Revelations) is not the easiest to interpret.  However, scripture will interpret scripture, and you need the Holy Ghost to reveal certain portions of scripture through study.  I mentioned my Salvational born again experience according to scripture, but you have chosen to ignore that as well, when it is all together Biblical (Acts 2:38).

Annela please go to my trinity thread i'm far more passive there, in fact I don't debate at all or insinuate anything in that thread. Annela in order for me to believe that I need to see where in Revelation is the multitude singing or to rule with Christ, praises are not singing many in ancient Israel praised God without singing. people this is not me inferring the bible says the 144K(that is the born again get their reward FIRST and corule with Christ for 1,000 years)

WHAT?  Ancient Israel didn't praise God with singing?  You need to go back and read the Old Testament.  The singers and musicians were appointed to do just that in the temple in the wilderness.  Even before that!  The singers and musicians a lot of times went before the Ark with singing and praising God.

I Chornicles 15:27-29
Exodus 15-1, 15:20-21

There are about 50 more scriptures relating to ancient Israel singing and playing music unto the Lord!  King David was a Psalmist (a writer/singer of songs to glorify God). What Bible are you reading?

[healthfreedom]

If you don't believe in the devil or hell, then please don't ever die   

[queenofnines]

What Bible are you reading?

It's always funny to see two of the flock arguing over *their* interpretation of stories from The Brothers Grimm.

[Annella]

What Bible are you reading?

It's always funny to see two of the flock arguing over *their* interpretation of stories from The Brothers Grimm.

We are discussing Biblical interpretation pertaining to prophecy which is difficult to interpret at best......by any flock.

I find it funny for someone who doesn't even believe in the Bible, or God, to have anything to say about the discussion at all.  Unless they are just mouthing off for no reason.  However, if you have something to contribute to the discussion (Biblical of course), then by all means contribute.  It's a debate and discussion thread and therefore up for such.

So.....I guess since you call the Bible the "Brother's Grimm", you actually have nothing to contribute, is that not correct?  You are posting just to be sarcastic?

Typical..........
 

[Falconer02]

I find it funny for someone who doesn't even believe in the Bible, or God, to have anything to say about the discussion at all.  Unless they are just mouthing off for no reason.

A discussion of fiction is entertaining and educational to those who are aware of the fictitious qualities. Thus the "Brothers Grimm" comment I imagine. Differences aside, I am one that's actually enjoying the read here.

If you don't believe in the devil or hell, then please don't ever die  

I have a magical serum for that.

[jcribb16]

What Bible are you reading?

It's always funny to see two of the flock arguing over *their* interpretation of stories from The Brothers Grimm.

Poor attempt at humor...

[queenofnines]

Poor attempt at humor...

You know jcribb, you did a huge logic fail in here awhile back, and I posted something calling you on it that could be described as "mean" because I was frustrated with your loose train of thought.  But I deleted it before you could read it, realizing you would never see the err of your ways, anyway, and not wanting to ruin anyone's day over minds that will never change.  But here you are, getting your scolds in every chance you get (this is just one of many examples).  My opinion of you has progressively lowered the more you've mirrored Annella, a woman who has not deserved the continual defense you provide on her part.  I have no desire to deal with two Annellas.  

[jordandog]

Just got caught up on this thread and see, yet again, a perfect example of 'making a mountain out of a molehill' and making something say what the person reading it wants it to say, not what it DOES say.
teflonfanatic:

@Annela: You don't have to feel compelled or forced to post every other day to my responses you can post every 2 to 3 weeks for all I care, and I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.

You, Annella, come back with this:

Teflonfanatic, this is a public forum, and I can post whenever I like.  I most certainly disagree with how you interpret scripture.  That's why you do not want me to post.

What the heck? How many times have you stated you are busy, you have been over things with him before, etc.? I take what he said as telling you it's not necessary to reply to all he says when he says it, he is still going to post, and he also agreed WITH you on one point. That turns into, in your head, him telling you when you are 'allowed' to post and you go sooo far as to imply he "doesn't want you to post." It is impossible to reason with an unreasonable person, no matter what is said. Why the remark about it being "a public forum"? Where did he remotely try to 'restrict' you and your views? It seems you really are only able to get along with and be decent to the few that believe the same way you do - it is NOT just those of us who question and/or do not believe your bible and fear your devil.

Go ahead and call me out for 'picking' at you or a point, I don't care. That really ticked me off when I saw it. If, as you say ad nauseam, "God is not the author of confusion", why is everyone but you confused trying to interpret the Bible? It has confused biblical scholars much smarter than you for many years - they just happen to admit it.

In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.
Nietzsche

[monnee]

That's good to hear because the devil is evil and hell is not a place you want to go.