I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[jcribb16]

Quote from: jcribb16 on Today at 10:02:09 am
if you have to brag how much your faith was ("faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time.")

Quote from: queenofnines on Today at 05:38:58 pm

Not bragging.  Just pointing out that I think you'd be very surprised if you could look into the past with your own eyes and see that I was a dedicated Christian, since believers love to accuse atheists of never believing at all.  You find it odd because you're probably quite comfortable in your position and would never dream of investigating if your beliefs are actually true like I did.  They make you feel good; a bunch of other people agree with you...that's all you need to know.


Regarding you being a dedicated Christian:  Like I said, something must have happened to make you turn a complete 180.  I do NOT love to accuse atheists of never believing at all - that depends on each individual's situation.  

You know, I love it when we do agree on something!!!!!  You are absolutely right!!!   I am quite comfortable in my position of follower of God.  That is true.  However, I do investigate and have investigated the other beliefs.  In college, I had many classes on the Bible, Bible History, History of Rome, Greece, Italy, Israel, etc.  I also had to take classes on Cults, Atheism, etc. Through this "investigation", my beliefs are firmly planted in God, so, yes, I'm comfortable with that end of it.  The studies have helped to prepare me for people that don't believe, may believe, and ones like you, that mock the Christians.  I have my Bible, research books, notes, and my brain to help me on here.

[Annella]

Quote from: jcribb16 on Today at 10:02:09 am
if you have to brag how much your faith was ("faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time.")

Quote from: queenofnines on Today at 05:38:58 pm

Not bragging.  Just pointing out that I think you'd be very surprised if you could look into the past with your own eyes and see that I was a dedicated Christian, since believers love to accuse atheists of never believing at all.  You find it odd because you're probably quite comfortable in your position and would never dream of investigating if your beliefs are actually true like I did.  They make you feel good; a bunch of other people agree with you...that's all you need to know.


Regarding you being a dedicated Christian:  Like I said, something must have happened to make you turn a complete 180.  I do NOT love to accuse atheists of never believing at all - that depends on each individual's situation. 

You know, I love it when we do agree on something!!!!!  You are absolutely right!!!  I am quite comfortable in my position of follower of God.  That is true.  However, I do investigate and have investigated the other beliefs.  In college, I had many classes on the Bible, Bible History, History of Rome, Greece, Italy, Israel, etc.  I also had to take classes on Cults, Atheism, etc. Through this "investigation", my beliefs are firmly planted in God, so, yes, I'm comfortable with that end of it.  The studies have helped to prepare me for people that don't believe, may believe, and ones like you, that mock the Christians.  I have my research books, notes, and my brain to help me on here.

Very good Jcribb.  I deleted my post, as yours was better.

[jcribb16]

Quote from: jcribb16 on Today at 10:02:09 am
if you have to brag how much your faith was ("faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time.")

Quote from: queenofnines on Today at 05:38:58 pm

Not bragging.  Just pointing out that I think you'd be very surprised if you could look into the past with your own eyes and see that I was a dedicated Christian, since believers love to accuse atheists of never believing at all.  You find it odd because you're probably quite comfortable in your position and would never dream of investigating if your beliefs are actually true like I did.  They make you feel good; a bunch of other people agree with you...that's all you need to know.


Regarding you being a dedicated Christian:  Like I said, something must have happened to make you turn a complete 180.  I do NOT love to accuse atheists of never believing at all - that depends on each individual's situation.  

You know, I love it when we do agree on something!!!!!  You are absolutely right!!!   I am quite comfortable in my position of follower of God.  That is true.  However, I do investigate and have investigated the other beliefs.  In college, I had many classes on the Bible, Bible History, History of Rome, Greece, Italy, Israel, etc.  I also had to take classes on Cults, Atheism, etc. Through this "investigation", my beliefs are firmly planted in God, so, yes, I'm comfortable with that end of it.  The studies have helped to prepare me for people that don't believe, may believe, and ones like you, that mock the Christians.  I have my Bible, research books, notes, and my brain to help me on here.

Very good Jcribb.  I deleted my post, as yours was better.

Yours was good, too!  It shows there are more on here that notice the trend of things...    

[amyrouse]

To Amy:  Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on.  Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc.  Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people?  I would question why you would think that is a good thing?  Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.

You disappoint me.

At one time, I believed we were friends.  I confided in you out of love, regardless of whether or not we agreed on everything.  In fact, I defended you on several occasions.  All you have done with this statement here is prove that what everyone is saying about you is true.

I am straightforward with my words.  I've mentioned several times that I missed seeing you on here, not because you served as cheap entertainment, but because I valued you as a human being.  Thanks for proving me wrong.  I won't bother with you again.

[Annella]

To Amy:  Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on.  Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc.  Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people?  I would question why you would think that is a good thing?  Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.

You disappoint me.

At one time, I believed we were friends.  I confided in you out of love, regardless of whether or not we agreed on everything.  In fact, I defended you on several occasions.  All you have done with this statement here is prove that what everyone is saying about you is true.

I am straightforward with my words.  I've mentioned several times that I missed seeing you on here, not because you served as cheap entertainment, but because I valued you as a human being.  Thanks for proving me wrong.  I won't bother with you again.

If I misunderstood your posting, then I apologize.  However, who would want to see jordandog and I go at it again? I for one would not miss any of the garbage that went on between her and I.  You did mention just her and I, am I not correct?  While I haven't gone anywhere, and have been on other threads where I know you have seen me, and I you, I was wondering why you would post what you did?

What have you confided in me that I've not kept said confidence?  If you mentioned several times here on D&D that you missed seeing me on here, I've only come back into D&D the last 3 or 4 days to help out Jcribb. I haven't been in here in months, nor have I been reading up past postings.  So if you have mentioned anything in D&D about missing me, then I've not been in here to read it.  I no longer have a Facebook account or YouTube account either.  I haven't touched base with you in months.

Of course your welcome to your opinion about what you think about me as a person.  Sorry you feel that way.

[Falconer02]

I'd like to say before I go any further, that some people who are opposed to God, or even the possibility to consider God, are going to always rationalize and/or explain away anything that a God believer will attempt to share. To them, all evidence put forward is not evidence to them and would be considered useless because they have concluded that there is absolutely no God.  Christians, on the other hand, will also try to prove the evidences of God and disprove what the evolutionists are trying to prove.  It's just a never-ending circle and will stay that way until the end of time.  Nevertheless, people on both sides will always continue to try and prove their side. With that said and behind me, I'll try to continue on.

I haven't concluded that there is no god or gods or...as I like to put it...metaphysical properties. I just said they can only exist in a speculative manner. The specified defined gods that have human attributes, run-of-the-mill stories, that are from ancient superstitious times? The one's that are overbloated in today's society? Yes, since it's so skewed and completely obvious that they're myths. http://www.bigmyth.com/webpages/2_eng_myths.htm

Remember what you should be pushing for-- it isn't really proof of a deity. That leaves room for every possible concept, and (no offense here) it shows that you're not too serious about your own god. Evolutionists have their undeniable evidence with visual and interactive proof. I've told you about some of them. I used to be adamantly against the proof of it until I actually just listened and studied it. I'm glad I did.

1. Let's look at the earth.   Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.  No other planet has that given (or at least that hasn't been discovered.)  The earth is also located from the sun at just the right distance to not be torched or frozen.  It also is perfectly located the right amount of distance from the moon. This involves the tides gravitational pull, the tides moving the water, and also the mystery of the oceans and waters being held back from covering the earth again.  One thing I remember learning in science is that water in the winter freezes from the top - that way fish can still swim in the water and live.  Just these things alone do not support evolution.  They support some kind of creator or designer that knew what exactly was needed for everything to work together, in and organized way.

**But yet, ""The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence.

This is, again, an eye-of-the-beholder and a blind watch-maker argument. You seem to think that everything you labelled here was made specifically for us, whereas you completely forget the notion that everything was made around those things nature brought into existence. Pretty much your argument dulls down to the metaphor of "God made kitchens for cockroaches only".

None of these things you listed are perfect.

1.) Earth is not perfectly placed from the sun. The orbit it takes is not symmetrical either. It's just within a narrow area called a habitable zone. Within it lies a semi-narrow range of attributes which allowed for the emergence of life and evolution . Once evolution started, life naturally evolved to fit the conditions on this planet. Not perfectly, but enough to survive and reproduce. Besides that, another planet has been discovered that has this too-
http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2010/09/30/planet_found_in_habitable_zone/
Considering the trillions of planets that are probably out there, it's easy to conclude that we probably aren't the only gem in this universe.  

2.) The moon is not perfectly located at the right amt of distance either. Infact it's actually slowly moving away year by year (3 cm)! If it were perfect, we would not have random tidal distortions anywhere. Rather, the gravitational force between earth and the moon would have to be absolutely perfect for ideal tip-top planet condition. Ours just seems like shabby design.

3.)  Water freezes according to the heat it loses. Naturally heat rises, so the surface of water will be the first to freeze unless the cooling is being delivered to another location; the water at the surface loses energy to the cold air, so it freezes first. Again, my point here is that life arose around these natural principles. Not all at once.

"The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen.

Yep. I'd like to know, but I'm not flipping out and stuffing it with something superstitious to make me feel more comfortable about existence. It's a mysteryyyyy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC4jZKSU8G4&feature=related

They still don't know the cause, but can't accept that God was already there and caused it to happen.  Instead they keep trying their best to disprove that God had anything to do with it.  Actually that there is no God and it just could not happen that way

You act like science is ruthlessly out to kill the god concept. It's not. As it progresses, it just keeps unwillingly hitting religious foundational beliefs. What else could one expect?

"Look! Fire! God made it!"
"How do you know?"
"It would only make sense because nobody knows how it came to be!"
"Well let's try to figure that out just to be sure! I'll grab some sticks and rub them together. Maybe you can go find some flint rocks and try th--"
"STOP TRYING TO DISPROVE GOD!"

[jcribb16]

Quote from Falconer:
Remember what you should be pushing for-- it isn't really proof of a deity. That leaves room for every possible concept, and (no offense here) it shows that you're not too serious about your own god. Evolutionists have their undeniable evidence with visual and interactive proof. I've told you about some of them. I used to be adamantly against the proof of it until I actually just listened and studied it. I'm glad I did.

Well, I do beg your pardon here: I am very serious about God.  You are also contradicting yourself when you say that what I'm pushing for shouldn't be "really proof of a diety."  That's exactly what you want, IS proof of God.  You say you see the proof of Evolution by "undeniable evidence with visual and interactive proof."  Well, you are wanting the exact same thing to be proven to you of a deity.

You also say you, " haven't concluded that there is no god or gods or...as I like to put it...metaphysical properties."  Yet you turn around and infer they are myths. That's kind of confusing to people.

As far as my views on the earth, moon, and water, you did exactly as I said that some people do.  You tried to explain the views away and/or rationalize them away.  I can honestly say that no matter what I write myself or quote from other scientists that view the Creation side, you will keep doing the same thing.  It doesn't mean that all of your rationalizations are the correct or incorrect rebuttal to mine.  People can draw their own conclusions. 

I will say that I stand by what was written about my views on the earth, moon, and water.  If the earth were not in the precise position it is now, we would either burn up or freeze to death.  That kind of placement doesn't happen by chance nor by transition.

You can rationalize how the freezing of the water works.  Okay, that's true.  But my point for that is how it was made to do that so that the fish are not killed off during the cold season.  Evolution and chance did not come up with that perfection.  A Designer/Creator did.

[jcribb16]

It's almost 2 a.m. here, so I'm going to try and ignore insomnia and get some rest.  Have a good night and I will "see" you all tomorrow (actually, later today.)  Good night!

[Falconer02]

Well, I do beg your pardon here: I am very serious about God.  You are also contradicting yourself when you say that what I'm pushing for shouldn't be "really proof of a diety."  That's exactly what you want, IS proof of God.  You say you see the proof of Evolution by "undeniable evidence with visual and interactive proof."  Well, you are wanting the exact same thing to be proven to you of a deity.

Well I didn't want to offend-- it's just after doing research on ID, I just wanted to state the major problem with pushing for ID. It's partially contradictory to your belief.

You also say you, " haven't concluded that there is no god or gods or...as I like to put it...metaphysical properties."  Yet you turn around and infer they are myths. That's kind of confusing to people.

I'm referring to the mysteries of the universe-- what we haven't found yet such as what came before the universe or if there are different metaphysical dimensions for beings to exist in, etc. I say myths because the idea your side stands with are old stories from primitive times having to do with a god with very well-defined traits. Many cultures have these and they're all different stories.

You tried to explain the views away and/or rationalize them away.  I can honestly say that no matter what I write myself or quote from other scientists that view the Creation side, you will keep doing the same thing.  It doesn't mean that all of your rationalizations are the correct or incorrect rebuttal to mine.  People can draw their own conclusions.

Yes, like if a god did design these things, it's a pretty shabby designer seeing how there is massive amounts of room for improvement for even the most basic aspects of it. Especially for us humans.

If the earth were not in the precise position it is now, we would either burn up or freeze to death.  That kind of placement doesn't happen by chance nor by transition.

There is no precise distance, but a minimum and maximum range of distances which life can exist. I don't know them offhand though. Just remember- life can exist at various temperatures and pressures. If the planet were to move a few million miles from it's current orbit, not all life would die off.
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/H/habzone.html
And again, considering there are other planets/satellites that do this in the universe, it is by chance and transition. We just don't know if there's any sort of developing life on them because they're extremely far away.

But my point for that is how it was made to do that so that the fish are not killed off during the cold season.  Evolution and chance did not come up with that perfection.  A Designer/Creator did.

Chance is loosely thrown around here like it's a single flip of a coin. Remember the "Law of large numbers"- If it can happen, given enough opportunity, it will happen.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers
Remember how large the universe is, how much time it has been around, and how things are forming and breaking apart in it constantly. Also, your use of the word 'perfection' is very blunt. The fishes existence is not perfect because everything is infinitely perfectable. It's just perfect to you because it's what you're used to seeing. That's what I meant by a "universally ethnocentric" sight on things.

[amyrouse]

To Amy:  Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on.  Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc.  Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people?  I would question why you would think that is a good thing?  Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.

You disappoint me.

At one time, I believed we were friends.  I confided in you out of love, regardless of whether or not we agreed on everything.  In fact, I defended you on several occasions.  All you have done with this statement here is prove that what everyone is saying about you is true.

I am straightforward with my words.  I've mentioned several times that I missed seeing you on here, not because you served as cheap entertainment, but because I valued you as a human being.  Thanks for proving me wrong.  I won't bother with you again.

If I misunderstood your posting, then I apologize.  However, who would want to see jordandog and I go at it again? I for one would not miss any of the garbage that went on between her and I.  You did mention just her and I, am I not correct?  While I haven't gone anywhere, and have been on other threads where I know you have seen me, and I you, I was wondering why you would post what you did?

What have you confided in me that I've not kept said confidence?  If you mentioned several times here on D&D that you missed seeing me on here, I've only come back into D&D the last 3 or 4 days to help out Jcribb. I haven't been in here in months, nor have I been reading up past postings.  So if you have mentioned anything in D&D about missing me, then I've not been in here to read it.  I no longer have a Facebook account or YouTube account either.  I haven't touched base with you in months.

Of course your welcome to your opinion about what you think about me as a person.  Sorry you feel that way.

Allow me to refresh your memory.  Here are my words:

And, hey Jdog and Annella!  I've missed you both!

That was in no way an invitation for you and Jdog to "go at it again."  It was my saying that I have not seen either of you on D&D in awhile (the part of the FC forums that I frequent the most) and that I've missed you both.  You seem to be the only one to misunderstand it.

I may have misunderstood your words, though, since I thought they were directed at me in the never agreeing on anything and being called a *bleep*.  For that I am sorry.  It disappoints me, though, that you would ever think that I would desire to read your words as a source of cheap entertainment.  I honestly thought you knew me better.

[symonds34]

Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.

[jordandog]

To Amy:  Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on.  Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc.  Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people?  I would question why you would think that is a good thing?  Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.

You (Annella) take a simple "Hello" from Amy to each of us and turn it into this?! By the way and for the record, we have agreed on things. You forget that, just like you forget that not every word said to you has some hidden and underlying meaning. I NEVER called you a *bleep*, I said you were in "*bleep* mode" and I will say you are once again. The above really bothered me and NOT because of what you said about me, but because you directed your venom at Amy for no reason. You have to have the last word on everything with everyone. It is apparent here, apparent on some Off Topic threads with others. If this is how a woman of god acts, I pity the people you minister to. I suppose you are compassionate with them until there is something they say that means they are 'out to get you' too? Where did Amy say that you had done this ie made public things said to you? - "What have you confided in me that I've not kept said confidence?"

You really need to get a grip on things and stop reading what isn't written and start reading what is. I have not hidden who I am, have always been real on here, good or bad. You seem to go with whatever direction your paranoia takes you and that has NOTHING to do with your beliefs because I am not putting that into the equation here. You see something that isn't, no matter what the topic happens to be.

[queenofnines]

If the earth were not in the precise position it is now, we would either burn up or freeze to death.  That kind of placement doesn't happen by chance nor by transition.

Yes, it does happen by chance.  Want to know why?  The universe is infinitely bigger than our little minds can comprehend, with TRILLIONS of stars and BILLIONS of galaxies.  That is not an exaggeration, it is literally true.  So even if there's a one in a million shot of getting an earth like ours, out of BILLIONS of galaxies, it's going to happen many times over due to statistics alone.  It's inevitable; it's not god.

And like Falconer said, our home planet is far from perfect.  By 2025, 50 percent of the world's population won't have access to safe drinking water.  Entire continents are a curse because the land is not very fertile, causing thousands to die of starvation everyday.  Natural disasters happen frequently.  We are not perfectly protected from an asteroid hitting earth and making life miserable for us all.  There are a limited number of resources to go around, and yet people still keep making babies.  Etc., etc.

[EAngels]

Kept on looking for an answer and wish the best of it. For me, if finally find Him that's the best thing will happen to you.

[jcribb16]

If the earth were not in the precise position it is now, we would either burn up or freeze to death.  That kind of placement doesn't happen by chance nor by transition.

Yes, it does happen by chance.  Want to know why?  The universe is infinitely bigger than our little minds can comprehend, with TRILLIONS of stars and BILLIONS of galaxies.  That is not an exaggeration, it is literally true.  So even if there's a one in a million shot of getting an earth like ours, out of BILLIONS of galaxies, it's going to happen many times over due to statistics alone.  It's inevitable; it's not god.

And like Falconer said, our home planet is far from perfect.  By 2025, 50 percent of the world's population won't have access to safe drinking water.  Entire continents are a curse because the land is not very fertile, causing thousands to die of starvation everyday.  Natural disasters happen frequently.  We are not perfectly protected from an asteroid hitting earth and making life miserable for us all.  There are a limited number of resources to go around, and yet people still keep making babies.  Etc., etc.

I respectfully disagree with you about the "chance" part. I support the Designer/Creator.  Chance cannot make the beginnings of the world in such an organized way..