I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[jcribb16]

Quote from jcribb:
What bothers me is when new people come in and want to express what they think about the topic at hand and right away someone comes at them calling their beliefs delusional, fairy tale, silly, etc., instead of questioning why they believe that way, or listing a couple of reasons why they disagree with the person.

Quote from Falconer:
I disagree with the name calling aspect here because-

Delusion- a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
Fairy Tale- an incredible or misleading statement, account, or belief
Silly- absurd; ridiculous; irrational

You'd probably get disgruntled over any of these words within the definitions anyhow. But you and Annella have demonstrated these attributes beyond the call of duty. So, even though I'm really trying to choose my words here and trying not to sound antagonizing, I still expect an emotional uproar of how I'm rude and horrible I am for pointing out the obvious.

Falconer, I'm not calling you rude and horrible. 

This is where the problem lies:  I believe in Christ, through faith.  Faith is something that you have trust in even though you can't see it.  The Bible is God's Word and it explains faith and why we believe.  Now to us, professing Christians, it is not a delusion or a fairy tale, nor is it silly.  Instead of calling people or their beliefs that, give opposite reasons for why you believe the way you do.  There is a poster that discusses their scientific view of things. That's fine - it opens the door for more discussion.  But, when a person is immediately cut off and name called, then the other person gets defensive of their view and feels like then they are defending themselves from the name calling itself instead of being able to discuss the opposite person's views, pros and cons, etc. Everyone in this forum has the right to express their view without being trampled on with name calling. They would like the opportunity to discuss What, Why, and How they believe or feel about something.  Instead certain ones don't give them the opportunity to do so. That's where my problem lies.

[angelhome]

Quote from jcribb:
What bothers me is when new people come in and want to express what they think about the topic at hand and right away someone comes at them calling their beliefs delusional, fairy tale, silly, etc., instead of questioning why they believe that way, or listing a couple of reasons why they disagree with the person.

Quote from Falconer:
I disagree with the name calling aspect here because-

Delusion- a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
Fairy Tale- an incredible or misleading statement, account, or belief
Silly- absurd; ridiculous; irrational

You'd probably get disgruntled over any of these words within the definitions anyhow. But you and Annella have demonstrated these attributes beyond the call of duty. So, even though I'm really trying to choose my words here and trying not to sound antagonizing, I still expect an emotional uproar of how I'm rude and horrible I am for pointing out the obvious.

Falconer, I'm not calling you rude and horrible. 

This is where the problem lies:  I believe in Christ, through faith.  Faith is something that you have trust in even though you can't see it.  The Bible is God's Word and it explains faith and why we believe.  Now to us, professing Christians, it is not a delusion or a fairy tale, nor is it silly.  Instead of calling people or their beliefs that, give opposite reasons for why you believe the way you do.  There is a poster that discusses their scientific view of things. That's fine - it opens the door for more discussion.  But, when a person is immediately cut off and name called, then the other person gets defensive of their view and feels like then they are defending themselves from the name calling itself instead of being able to discuss the opposite person's views, pros and cons, etc. Everyone in this forum has the right to express their view without being trampled on with name calling. They would like the opportunity to discuss What, Why, and How they believe or feel about something.  Instead certain ones don't give them the opportunity to do so. That's where my problem lies.

EXCELLENT Answer and I agree. Sometimes we just have to say "walk a mile in my shoes"
or "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" - I too am a believer, a Jewish believer and I have no doubt GOD is very real..
but I know too, I have seen miracles that most folks haven't seen.. so I have to stop myself self from being zealous and
try to walk like YESHUA walked, in understanding with a hand out to help in gentleness.

[angelhome]

Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.

This is a suggestion M. - have you read the Bible? I attempted to witness to my son for years, he would get so angry with me. One day he picked up the Bible purely to prove me wrong. He read it once, then he read it twice. That was in 1990. today he writes, sings & plays across the world the Messianic message... The Bible changed him, I did not. I am in prison ministry and write to over a 1000 inmates across America. I can almost tell by the letters who is reading the Bible and who is playing games. We are known by our actions that speak louder than words, and we must walk as our LORD walked or we disgrace HIM. But HE nevers stops loving us. 

[jcribb16]

Thank you angelhome.  I like what you have to say.  That walk is hard because of obstacles or people, but with God on our side, we don't have to cower and give in to those kinds of things.

[angelhome]

Thank you angelhome.  I like what you have to say.  That walk is hard because of obstacles or people, but with God on our side, we don't have to cower and give in to those kinds of things.

and back to you, thank you. I am encouraged to be able to speak to those who are in doubt. While I have never been in doubt due to parents who kept me in church, read the Bible & prayed one night a week. I was one heck of a back slider. Not understanding how real nor how close GOD was, and being so deeply hurt by father of my children I jumped right into the 'world' - owned & ran 2 beer joints, rode with motor cycle gangs, did dope, had sugar daddies, etc. [today that all seems like a bad dream] but all that has allowed me to see those who have never had GOD in their lives, are so blinded to how real & how good HE is and how HE stands near us pleading for us to use that free will HE provided and turn to HIM. But I am able to see it from both sides and it has put me in this ministry that has greatly blessed me and that blessing flows to those whom I write in prison. so thank you again and as you know, it ain't me, it is all about HIM.

[SCarter984]

Thank you angelhome.  I like what you have to say.  That walk is hard because of obstacles or people, but with God on our side, we don't have to cower and give in to those kinds of things.

and back to you, thank you. I am encouraged to be able to speak to those who are in doubt. While I have never been in doubt due to parents who kept me in church, read the Bible & prayed one night a week. I was one heck of a back slider. Not understanding how real nor how close GOD was, and being so deeply hurt by father of my children I jumped right into the 'world' - owned & ran 2 beer joints, rode with motor cycle gangs, did dope, had sugar daddies, etc. [today that all seems like a bad dream] but all that has allowed me to see those who have never had GOD in their lives, are so blinded to how real & how good HE is and how HE stands near us pleading for us to use that free will HE provided and turn to HIM. But I am able to see it from both sides and it has put me in this ministry that has greatly blessed me and that blessing flows to those whom I write in prison. so thank you again and as you know, it ain't me, it is all about HIM.

Thanks for speaking the real my friends.  It is music to my ears.  Shalom 

[Falconer02]

This is where the problem lies:  I believe in Christ, through faith.  Faith is something that you have trust in even though you can't see it.  The Bible is God's Word and it explains faith and why we believe.  Now to us, professing Christians, it is not a delusion or a fairy tale, nor is it silly.  Instead of calling people or their beliefs that, give opposite reasons for why you believe the way you do.

I have. Many times. Two were that your god and your free will are flawed from the get-go and your Jesus character takes an obvious mythological hero pattern from other myth characters before his time. Nobody really answered them without "you gotta have faith!", which, given the criteria both sides have presented, the christian faith is really just self deception sprinkled with an emotional opiate.

Instead certain ones don't give them the opportunity to do so. That's where my problem lies.

I dont' think you can play the "pushed-around" or "oppressed" card here considering adamant-christian threads are so redundant in D+D; most of which present a very naive stance. When those opinions are praised, myself and others usually step in and introduce the problems (just like in this thread). What I'm starting to see is whenever the word 'faith' is said, us skeptics all suddenly have to back off, be quiet, and pretend what they believe is not destructive (both physically and mentally- stories vary). I mean in this thread alone we were arguing about faith healing! What the heck! You have every right to believe what you want to and I have no problem with that. But when you push for it and regard it as the truth to everyone else, with little to no proof except stories of emotional experiences and deceptive qualities, I'm going to speak up with the truckload of problems present.

[jcribb16]

Ok, Falconer, here you go:

Scientific Proof of God – The Evidence
What evidence exists that could prove the existence or non-existence of God? Does God exist?

First, the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.


The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer.


Both direct and indirect evidence for God’s existence are well known and well documented. Nothing in history is better known or better documented than the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We even use the year of His birth as the basis for our calendar. He perfectly matched the over 100 unique Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament regarding His birth, life, death, and resurrection. The laws of probability cannot give us a reasonable explanation for either the Messianic predictions or the resurrection, let alone both by the same person.

Jesus’ miracles were witnessed by many and were documented redundantly for additional corroboration. He was seen by at least 500 people after His resurrection. He was seen ascending into heaven. His transfiguration was seen by Peter, James, and John. His wisdom in dealing with many circumstances was astounding. He never promoted Himself or His miracles. C. S. Lewis stated that He couldn’t have just been a good teacher. He was either a liar, lunatic, or Lord. He didn’t even come close to meeting the profile of a liar or lunatic, so He had to be God.

Jesus Christ also supported the truth of the Old Testament and quoted it many times. Consequently, with Jesus Christ, we have an eyewitness to the truth of the Old Testament. This gives credibility to the creation account and God’s interaction with man. The entire Old Testament account is about how God is trying to have a relationship with man while man is separating himself from God by sin. It tells how God is long-suffering and merciful and ultimately how God sent His Son to die for our sins so God could ultimately have a relationship with us.

God’s interaction with man in the Old Testament was often and powerful. Some of the main interactions included Adam, Cain, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, the Israelites, the prophets, and the kings. In addition to Jesus’ testimony to the truth of the Old Testament, ancient manuscripts, archaeology, and internal consistency also testify to its truth. Consequently, much direct evidence including eyewitness accounts and indirect evidence corroborate the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.

http://www.allaboutcreation.org/scientific-proof-of-god-faq.htm

[jcribb16]

Cont.:


Proof of God - Intelligent Design

What would constitute objective proof of God? Well, consider the following self-evident and universally recognized truth: Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer. It's simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself.

We know that design necessitates a designer. In fact, in accordance with this fundamental axiom, design detection methodology is a prerequisite in many fields of human endeavor, including archaeology, anthropology, forensics, criminal jurisprudence, copyright law, patent law, reverse engineering, crypto analysis, random number generation, and SETI. And how do we recognize intelligent design? In general, we find "specified complexity" to be a reliable indicator of the presence of intelligent design. Chance can explain complexity alone but not specification -- a random sequence of letters is complex but not specified (it's meaningless). A Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified (it's meaningful). We can't have a Shakespearean sonnet without Shakespeare. (William A. Dembski, The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities, 1998.)

Proof of God - Nature

So where's the proof of God's existence? In accordance with our familiar axiom and in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics and information theory, the proof of God is all around us!

Through the microscope, we observe the E. coli bacterial flagellum. The bacterial flagellum is what propels E. coli bacteria through its microscopic world. It consists of about 40 individual protein parts including a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It's a microscopic outboard motor! The individual parts come into focus when magnified 50,000 times (using electron micrographs). And even though these microscopic outboard motors run at an incredible 100,000 rpm, they can stop on a microscopic dime. It takes only a quarter turn for them to stop, shift directions and start spinning 100,000 rpm in the opposite direction! The flagellar motor has two gears (forward and reverse), is water-cooled, and is hardwired into a signal transduction (sensory mechanism) so that it receives feedback from its environment. ("Unlocking the Mystery of Life," video documentary by Illustra Media, 2002.)

When we apply the general principles of detecting specified complexity to biologic systems (living creatures), we find it reasonable to infer the presence intelligent design. Take, for example, the bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not convenient that we've given these parts these names - that's truly their function. If you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, machine, toy or model, you would recognize them as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect an outboard motor -- much less one as incredible as the flagellar motor -- to be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. Motors are the product of intelligent design.

Furthermore, the E. coli bacterial flagellum simply could not have evolved gradually over time. The bacterial flagellum is an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. There is absolutely no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the bacterial flagellum. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, 1996.)

The bacterial flagellum (not to mention the irreducibly complex molecular machines responsible for the flagellum's assembly) is just one example of the specified complexity that pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." (Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1986, p. 250.)

Proof of God - His Fingerprints are Everywhere

Where is the proof of God? If we're willing to open our eyes, we'll see the fingerprints of God all around us and all throughout us. Our very existence proves the existence of a Creator God.

http://www.allaboutcreation.org/proof-of-god.htm

There is no way I can explain everything that was put on here. That's why I used this information.  It explains in detail what I would mess up trying to say.

[jcribb16]

Thank you angelhome.  I like what you have to say.  That walk is hard because of obstacles or people, but with God on our side, we don't have to cower and give in to those kinds of things.

and back to you, thank you. I am encouraged to be able to speak to those who are in doubt. While I have never been in doubt due to parents who kept me in church, read the Bible & prayed one night a week. I was one heck of a back slider. Not understanding how real nor how close GOD was, and being so deeply hurt by father of my children I jumped right into the 'world' - owned & ran 2 beer joints, rode with motor cycle gangs, did dope, had sugar daddies, etc. [today that all seems like a bad dream] but all that has allowed me to see those who have never had GOD in their lives, are so blinded to how real & how good HE is and how HE stands near us pleading for us to use that free will HE provided and turn to HIM. But I am able to see it from both sides and it has put me in this ministry that has greatly blessed me and that blessing flows to those whom I write in prison. so thank you again and as you know, it ain't me, it is all about HIM.

Thanks for speaking the real my friends.  It is music to my ears.  Shalom 

Thank you, SCarter.  You have quite a testimony that I'm sure wasn't easy to share. The Lord has blessed your ministry and you as well.  Keep up the wonderful work! 

[Falconer02]

Quoting a creationist site? This'll be fun! 

The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer.

The world's design is far from perfect and full of problems. In fact the 'creation' of it must of been pretty half-assed considering all the disasters (as we label them) that strike (including large meteors that can obliterate countries- Tunguska for example). It's an extremely fragile planet that takes very bad strikes once in a while. And the fact that life has been seen and documented to evolve from random natural processes only hurts this argument. I will tell you if you're arguing for intelliegent design, you will lose this debate. ID supports the idea of a god. Not your defined specific god with magical powers and a grand quirky plan. This means that even if ID is correct, you're still left with an infinite amount of possibilites to this metaphysical beings characteristics.

tl;dnr = An argument for a god? Yes, it's debatable as far as I know. An argument for YOUR god? Furthest from.

The laws of probability cannot give us a reasonable explanation for either the Messianic predictions or the resurrection, let alone both by the same person.

I've never seen any well-documented proof from anyone that is not a christian-- CS Lewis was never an atheist as he claimed he was. I've read a bit of his stuff. These paragraphs are completely biased as they do not take into account the other mythical messiahs from both before and during your protagonist's time. The fact that it comes from a creationist site kinda hurts the legitimacy anyway since it seems to avoid them. Dionysus' story is ridiculously close to that of Jesus. Check it out. Also check out Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern.

The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer. It's simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself.

Remember-- looking at designs as intelligent is within the eye of the beholder. People used to look at fire and lightening as proof of god. But we found those to have natural processes. Of course we can keep attaching god down the line of processes until we get into ad infinitum, but that's a very cheap argument and is in favor of my beliefs rather than yours. This is because through history science has destroyed superstitious concepts left and right. Even today this is the case. You think it will ever change? The probability is 100% in favor of no so far. The only thing left here is faith, but that isn't proof. With the past and current evidence, rationally it just amounts to deception.

Proof of God - Nature

When we apply the general principles of detecting specified complexity to biologic systems (living creatures), we find it reasonable to infer the presence intelligent design.

No it does not. I've heard this example before actually. It amounts to this whole thing just being a cheap watchmaker analogy. No offense, but I doubt you know about anything you posted here considering you just copy/pasted. Unless you can explain why this favors intelligent design rather than it's fair contestant of natural selection and time, we really shouldn't go any further.

[jcribb16]

Falconer, I will continue researching my answers to rebutt your remarks.  I am just amazed how you will even disagree with professionals on this issue.  I do not appreciate you telling me that I probably know nothing about what I responded to you with. You are absolutely wrong with that.  One more thing, I will go further if I choose.  If you don't want to continue this discussion about ID because you think there is not further proof, then that is your decision. I will not be cut off because you say so.  It sounds as if the deeper we get into this, the more concerned you are that there will be evidence that you can't say you disagree with.  I will return.....

[Falconer02]

Falconer, I will continue researching my answers to rebutt your remarks.  I am just amazed how you will even disagree with professionals on this issue.  I do not appreciate you telling me that I probably know nothing about what I responded to you with. You are absolutely wrong with that.  One more thing, I will go further if I choose.  If you don't want to continue this discussion about ID because you think there is not further proof, then that is your decision. I will not be cut off because you say so.  It sounds as if the deeper we get into this, the more concerned you are that there will be evidence that you can't say you disagree with.  I will return.....

Hopefully with your own words and not someone elses. And I'm not concerned of you finding something I cannot disagree with. That would be great, actually! I've been in the arguments a lot and I always see the same stuff.

[jcribb16]

Falconer,

First I would like to ask you some questions. After that, I will go further.

** Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?

** Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?

[Falconer02]

Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?

On a human scale? Being a compatibilist with this philosophical question, "both" is my answer. 

Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?

Wut.

Do you really think this is a simple agree/disagree question? Remember, I'm agnostic. Being only human, you and I are not in a position to answer this question. I'm not here to assert anything. It's not that I don't want to answer your question here-- I wish I could. I just can't because I don't know.