I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[Annella]

We are to present the good news, and then it's up to the individual as the recipient of that good news to either accept it or reject it. Debating is one thing, but you are being downright nasty.

I find your offensive "good news" rather nasty as well.

Jcribb's postings are as clear and concise as anybody can make them.  Thing is, you want iron clad proof for something that is only obtainable by Faith.  Something you don't have.....and willingly reject.

Yeah. Because your idea of using unseen things and lack of evidence as actual proof and having a stronghold in society nowadays is pretty backwards and creepy.

No?  Okay....that's your own free will choice.  However, the Just shall live by Faith.

You live by a destiny already set in stone by your god.

And since she doesn't have any meat on her frail bones of arguments, then she shouldn't bother debating anyone who isn't a Christian?  That's basically what you said right?  How arrogant can you get, and how dare you talk to her like an idiot, and then top it off with relegating her to a fantasy world?  

Hey, if you can't argue without constantly hitting blunt fallacies and relying on the impossible, don't bother. That's my point. Die-hard christians live in a fantasy world if they keep the myths and ancient quest patterns of the bible on the table during a debate. And don't call me an idiot.

I said you talked to her as if she was an idiot.  I don't call people names deliberately.  

You didn't address:  It is not up to us to prove to you there is a God either.  You seem to keep wanting us to "prove" God's existence to you when that's something you get for yourself by Faith, not through us.  If you find the subject of Redemption nasty then turn away since you have made your choice.  Why is it that those who have been Christians and turned their backs on Christianity are the worst verbal offenders of those living for God?

Since we live by the Word of God that is "alive" within us (also something we don't have to prove to you), that is what we stand on.  Our destiny's are not set in stone.  It's the choices I make everyday that will determine the final outcome of my eternity.  

Your observations of Christians in society sounds like your afraid of us.  Or are you of the like mind as qon that we are holding society back because we are Christians and conservative in our views, and holding back science?  Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

This is why I don't debate in here much anymore.  It's like beating the air.  We all have made choices and will live with them.  

[Falconer02]

You can't prove me wrong either. And there's no need to shout at me - I read your words loud and clear.

Lol I'm just jokin' wicha.

First of all, do you really mean a better person or maybe it's really a bitter person it's made you.  That's how it comes through your words.

That's just with christianity because it's so bloated and fraught with problems. It gets kind of annoying seeing this monster promoted so much...everywhere. But strangely enough my boss brought his kids in today. One is ten and during lunch, out of the blue, he asks me if I believe in evolution. I say yes and tell him why quickly. Then he tells me all these kids at his school are getting mad at the teachings and saying mean things about it-- that it goes against the bible. He told me it was annoying. Keep in mind he's not christian. I just told him "Well yeah, evolution has problems, but just remember this belief just asks for your eyes. There beliefs take away their respect and reasoning skills." and he started chuckling. It was cute.

My God is NOT against broadening individual horizons and punishing those who are willing to educate themselves.  Please don't put words in my mouth - the readers know that's exactly what you are doing.

Anyone willing to educate themselves in the field of religion (having an arbitrary position and not having a preconceived notion of what they will only believe), will find out that the christian god is just another god.
"Go educate yourself! I'll disappear!"

[jcribb16]

Annella, thank you for coming in here.  I like your responses.  I appreciate how you backed me up - yes, he is getting a little mean-spirited, as if he's trying to goad me into angry responses.

 
Sorry, Falconer, no can do. I have the Lord on my side when responding to you.  Your remarks of "delusional", "myths", etc. just show the surface of what you apparently think you know about God. Not one time, have I called your ideas those names - everyone is entitled to their own opinion and ideas. While we might not agree on this issue of God/no God and hell/no hell, it doesn't give either of us the right to get ugly about it. We are adults expressing different views and we should act like it.

[jcribb16]

Quote from jcribb:
My God is NOT against broadening individual horizons and punishing those who are willing to educate themselves.  Please don't put words in my mouth - the readers know that's exactly what you are doing.

Quote from Falconer:
Anyone willing to educate themselves in the field of religion (having an arbitrary position and not having a preconceived notion of what they will only believe), will find out that the christian god is just another god.
"Go educate yourself! I'll disappear!"

No, Falconer, not everyone will come to that conclusion.  Reaching for straws, now, are you?

[Falconer02]

It is not up to us to prove to you there is a God either.

May the force be with you. Always.

You seem to keep wanting us to "prove" God's existence to you when that's something you get for yourself by Faith, not through us.  If you find the subject of Redemption nasty then turn away since you have made your choice.  Why is it that those who have been Christians and turned their backs on Christianity are the worst verbal offenders of those living for God?

I'll just say 'history' and 'the nonprogressive attitude' as the main ones from the truckloads I could throw on here.

Since we live by the Word of God that is "alive" within us (also something we don't have to prove to you), that is what we stand on.

Okay cool! Keep it to yourself and the respectable faiths, freethinkers, and nonbelievers really won't care.

Our destiny's are not set in stone.  It's the choices I make everyday that will determine the final outcome of my eternity.  

You fail to grasp the point. As a christian, you are ultimately a fatalist if you believe your god is all-knowing.

Your observations of Christians in society sounds like your afraid of us.

Personally I'm just annoyed. Not afraid. But when I see the reality of our gov't officials and teachers standing by it adamantly, that is nonprogressive and it holds people back from learning new ideas. I guess...you were right! That is kind of frightening.

[jcribb16]

   Well, it is almost 2:00 a.m. here, so I must make myself go get some rest.  Insomnia is annoying.  But work calls for tomorrow.  Have a great rest of the night - see you tomorrow!

[Falconer02]

Sorry, Falconer, no can do. I have the Lord on my side when responding to you.

Yes. You and your "+1 ATK +3 DEF Spiritual Kite Shield" is really intimidating.  

Your remarks of "delusional", "myths", etc. just show the surface of what you apparently think you know about God. Not one time, have I called your ideas those names - everyone is entitled to their own opinion and ideas.

I know about a lot of gods. Yours is just special to so many because of an emotional bliss and anxiety reduction found within the idea-- not the realism. It's common all around the world though with many of the gods. And how could my ideas be called such names? I don't believe in myths. I don't throw myself into fantasy unless I'm in a movie or game. Am I delusional for trying to be rational and realistic when pertaining to the world around me? Christianity just keeps bumping into me since it's so over-bloated and over-popularized. It's hard not to say these things about the beliefs.

it doesn't give either of us the right to get ugly about it. We are adults expressing different views and we should act like it.

This stemmed from your nonsensical example remember. I wasn't the only one going "....wth!?" here. Now I think I've just commented the most on it.

No, Falconer, not everyone will come to that conclusion.  Reaching for straws, now, are you?

What?

Well, it is almost 2:00 a.m. here, so I must make myself go get some rest.  Insomnia is annoying.  But work calls for tomorrow.  Have a great rest of the night - see you tomorrow

Yeah it's 1 here and I gotta be in at 8...blah. G'noyt!

[Annella]

It is not up to us to prove to you there is a God either.

May the force be with you. Always.

You seem to keep wanting us to "prove" God's existence to you when that's something you get for yourself by Faith, not through us.  If you find the subject of Redemption nasty then turn away since you have made your choice.  Why is it that those who have been Christians and turned their backs on Christianity are the worst verbal offenders of those living for God?

I'll just say 'history' and 'the nonprogressive attitude' as the main ones from the truckloads I could throw on here.

Since we live by the Word of God that is "alive" within us (also something we don't have to prove to you), that is what we stand on.

Okay cool! Keep it to yourself and the respectable faiths, freethinkers, and nonbelievers really won't care.

Our destiny's are not set in stone.  It's the choices I make everyday that will determine the final outcome of my eternity.  

You fail to grasp the point. As a christian, you are ultimately a fatalist if you believe your god is all-knowing.

Your observations of Christians in society sounds like your afraid of us.

Personally I'm just annoyed. Not afraid. But when I see the reality of our gov't officials and teachers standing by it adamantly, that is nonprogressive and it holds people back from learning new ideas. I guess...you were right! That is kind of frightening.

Your statement to keep it to ourselves is a laugh!!  We don't go out of our way to start anything of a spiritual nature Falconer.  We may be responding to someone's question, or trying to fend off some verbal abuse, but we don't pick a fight. We don't start threads to suck someone into a debate about Christianity, just to get a stink going.

It's 11:00 pm here, and I'm fading fast myself.

[Falconer02]

Your statement to keep it to ourselves is a laugh!!  We don't go out of our way to start anything of a spiritual nature Falconer.

That would explain the constant bombardment of religion threads in D+D then.   Hey, I'm all for yelling out loud here. I like reading it. I learn a lot about how people think (or the lack of thinking going around). It's just annoying when it gets to assertions and "lol believe meeee! I'm riiiiight! Look at my petty examplllllleee for the supernaturallllll!". I just wish we could keep it on a philosophical level. Rub our beards and all.  lol

We don't start threads to suck someone into a debate about Christianity, just to get a stink going.

Ohhhh yes they do. It's called flame-baiting. The militants who don't post much anymore here did it constantly. It's an old tactic where you post questionable material, someone takes a stance against it, and then it gets out of hand. D+D's past is pretty much proof of this.

It was pretty much the first scientific theory ever. The idea of god or gods has always existed as a way to explain the unexplainable. Primitive humans lived in fear and superstition based on what they saw happening in the world. They didn’t know about the cycle of evaporation so they didn’t know why the rain fell. So they created a deity or spirit that lives in the sky and causes it to rain. The Christian God is nothing more than another god in a long line of superstitious creations. I believe it was created to manipulate the masses, to control us, to make us mindless sheep. It's easy to scare people into this kind of thing, especially back then when you got stoned for not following their rules. It was the quickest way to make the people do as they were told. Since they were so scared that they'd burn in hell, it was easy to do.

I had to quote Sflynts post here though. Nobody acknowledged the beard-rubbing it deserves.

[queenofnines]

Pascal's wager comes to mind here.

And it is one of your side's weakest, most "illogical, but trying to be logical" arguments ever.  *sigh*  How many times do we have to over this before the believers get that what they think is a "slam dunk" argument is actually an embarrassment to their intellect...

Point #1: Pascal's Wager is weak because there are many flaws in it; namely, it assumes you are believing in the CORRECT god in the first place.  It won't do you any good if Allah or Thor or Vishnu turn out to be the correct god.  By statistics alone, the chances of YOUR god of choice being the right one are incredibly small (they all have the same amount of real world evidence: none).  And so, you will not save yourself from the hell place even by believing in them all, because most demand exclusive worship, and who has the time to go to the thousands of different church services for the thousands of different gods you'd have to worship to be "safe"?

Point #2: Pascal's Wager is NOT an argument for the existence of god; it's an argument for belief in the existence of god.  "I believe it because bad things might happen to me if I don't"...it's not actually based on any real standard of evidence, it's based on a perceived advantage in your head.  And in order for this argument to work, one must already consider the idea of a magical sky being who gives out rewards and punishments as a *reasonable* possibility, which atheists and agnostics don't.  In other words, one would already have to believe in god for Pascal's Wager to work.

Point #3: You really don't think an omnipotent, omniscient being could see through your belief as being a case of simply "hedging your bets" rather than true belief?  If Pascal's Wager is one of your primary foundations for believing in a god, it's ultimately useless in protecting you from the negative consequences it speaks of.

Point #4: Pascal's Wager claims you lose nothing if you're wrong and that when you're dead, you're actually, you know, dead.  But is this really the case when you're dedicating your **one and only life** to a falsehood?  Think of all the TIME, money, effort wasted; all of the things you might have done differently, all the things you held yourself back on because you were waiting on a god who wasn't there, all of the people's lives you negatively affected by being a stubborn crusader for a god who isn't there, **think of the progress of humanity that is getting held back because so many people devoted their lives to baseless wishful thinking rather than reality**.  Think of the MILLIONS of preachers who could have been scientists instead and found a cure for cancer and prolonged all of our lives to be living to 400 years old...wouldn't that be just great?  That is actually something that COULD happen, but y'all would rather sit around wasting time HOPING you'll get it when you're dead.

So no, I think you lose A LOT by believing in an INVISIBLE, inaudible god for which the only [proof you have is a fuzzy feeling in your head and a butchered copy of a copy of a copy book that was written by a bunch of primitive, superstitious goat herders and is no different than any other "holy god book" on the market.

[queenofnines]

Falconer, you know good and well you can NOT prove there is no God.

Did you not see the baseball pic?  You are being childish here.  Did you not read when he said:

"Remember, it's not our job to disprove the existence of your god."  You are making the claim that there IS a god; therefore, you have to prove there is!  If you can't prove it, than you have no right to try and dictate other people's lives in any way (whether through government law or your empty threats of hell).

"We've got nothing here to prove its existence."  Which is why we are atheist and/or agnostic.

"there's plenty of proof that it's a man-made deity, and that's what we see through educating ourselves."  Brilliance.  And which is why I am a gnostic atheist when it comes to your Yahweh.  Mushy god in general?  Agnostic atheist.  Most sane Christians are actually agnostics.

If it makes you feel better to think you can, go right ahead.

Ain't a matter of feelings over here.  That would be your camp.

All I can say is that what you and some others do and/or say against what Christians believe WILL definitely haunt you later.

Um, we don't believe in karma, either.  lol  Oh, you meant an empty, unsubstantiated threat of hell!  I find it so funny that you go around, arms swinging, like you actually have some proof to back up your assertions.  But in reality, you've got nothin'.

You apparently do not accept God's Word as literal, and that's your choice.

Um, neither do you.  lol  Neither does the Westboro Baptist Church since they don't actually kill the fags, although they're doing a much better job than the average Christian.

if you honestly studied the Bible, read prophecies that have happened, are happening, and will happen, and learn about the rich heritage of Bible history, you would have your eyes opened to a lot of things that you refuse to accept.

Yes, read your Bibles front to back, people!  We need more atheists!

you ultimately will choose your destiny, as I have chosen mine.

Um, y'all have the same destiny: dead in the dirt.

[jcribb16]

Queenofnines, some of your responses are really petty.  Just because you or Falconer say something isn't so, doesn't mean that that's the way it is. I DO believe in God. You don't, fine. I DO believe in God's Word (the Bible), so you don't get off telling me, "Neither do you, lol."  That's my personal business and it is not in the least bit funny.

I don't agree with that particular church's views. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says God. Sometimes people/pastors, etc. go too far with their personal agenda in thinking God wants them to do certain things that are outside of the law.  Not all who claim to be Christian are.

Yes, let people read the Bible.  There are prophecies that have come to pass, are coming to pass in our lifetimes, and will come to pass.  "Coincidence?"  I think not.

Yep, we do agree on one thing:  Our bodies will be dead in the dirt!  However, our souls will continue on in eternity, either in Heaven or in Hell. 

[Falconer02]

Queenofnines, some of your responses are really petty.

Well first off, even though we're good pals, I'd say she did a bang up job explaining the rationality of the whole thing.

Just because you or Falconer say something isn't so, doesn't mean that that's the way it is.

Well yeah. I'd like to bring up my "Man in Guam" example unless you remember it. Our point is that the probability of your beliefs being 100% accurate is quite a crazy wager considering the other massive man-made possibilities out there (both past and present). And considering we've discovered massive faults with this particular belief system, it just makes the 'faith' factor look even more like self-deception after we state the proof.

don't agree with that particular church's views. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says God. Sometimes people/pastors, etc. go too far with their personal agenda in thinking God wants them to do certain things that are outside of the law.  Not all who claim to be Christian are.

Well good! That's good to know. But, as Qo9 is bound to state, nobody is really christian when it comes down to it. Especially in this country. It's so backwards that it's funny. I'd elaborate, but I'm on my lunch break right now.
**Looks at clock**

Our bodies will be dead in the dirt!  However, our souls will continue on in eternity, either in Heaven or in Hell.

Just hope your soul does not get caught by one of the soul-catcher ships that the scientologists preach about. Because, unfortunately, that's a possibility if we're talking about the unknown supernatural.

Edit:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41149562/ns/politics-more_politics/?gt1=43001
AAAAUUUGGGGHHHH GTFO OUT OF MY POLITICS AUGHGHGHGHGH

[kezalter]

Point #3: You really don't think an omnipotent, omniscient being could see through your belief as being a case of simply "hedging your bets" rather than true belief?  If Pascal's Wager is one of your primary foundations for believing in a god, it's ultimately useless in protecting you from the negative consequences it speaks of.

What's funny is that the theory behind Pascal's Wager actually predates Christianity.  There's a Greek play where a guy tries to do something similar with the god Dionysus, only to ultimately be punished anyways because the deity saw through the insincerity.

[kezalter]

Yes, let people read the Bible.  There are prophecies that have come to pass, are coming to pass in our lifetimes, and will come to pass.  "Coincidence?"  I think not. 

You'll love Nostradamus then.