I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[queenofnines]

Just to clarify: Falconer is not mean.  When he jokes and you don't get it, that is a generational gap, jcribb.  Him pointing out the fallacies in someone's thinking: again, not mean.  In fact, he does a much better job in not getting frustrated by other people's stupidity than I do.

Oh geez!  Qon just called us stupid!  Well, not directly.  People need to grow up and stop getting all butt hurt when someone else points out how they're wrong; that their beliefs are silly, fictitious, fallacious, or dangerous.  The only way you can grow as a person is to admit that yes, even *you* can be stupid and be carrying around stupid ideas (what a concept, I know!).  Sure you have the "right" to not listen to other people or not take them seriously, but just know it is a character fault if you assume you alone have it all figured out; that you couldn't possibly ever learn from the opposition, and that no one in the room is smarter than you.

This is not an opinion, this is how the world actually works.

[jcribb16]

And just what is walking the walk with you Falconer?  Since we live our life by the scriptures, we are living what God laid down as what is befitting a Christian.  No verse is "random" to us one bit

I can sum this up quite easily: there are over 600 commandments in the Bible, and you and and all other Christians ignore 90 percent of them.  Which is a good thing ultimately, because we'd have to lock you all up if you took even a fraction of them seriously.  All of this should make you question the validity of what you worship, but instead you stand in fear of imaginary places, content with being a hypocrite.

Oh, and stop playing the victim card, Annella.  It's been more than just me who's picked up on your unsavory personality lately.

 Regarding the Law: In the New Testament Jesus explains the New Law. In Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus says, "...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.. This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Regarding the name calling - Christians do not "stand in fear of imaginary places, content with being a hypocrite." It always seems like when you can't come up with an appropriate question or comment you resort to name calling and intimidation.

[jcribb16]

Just to clarify: Falconer is not mean.  When he jokes and you don't get it, that is a generational gap, jcribb.  Him pointing out the fallacies in someone's thinking: again, not mean.  In fact, he does a much better job in not getting frustrated by other people's stupidity than I do.

Oh geez!  Qon just called us stupid!  Well, not directly.  People need to grow up and stop getting all butt hurt when someone else points out how they're wrong; that their beliefs are silly, fictitious, fallacious, or dangerous.  The only way you can grow as a person is to admit that yes, even *you* can be stupid and be carrying around stupid ideas (what a concept, I know!).  Sure you have the "right" to not listen to other people or not take them seriously, but just know it is a character fault if you assume you alone have it all figured out; that you couldn't possibly ever learn from the opposition, and that no one in the room is smarter than you.

This is not an opinion, this is how the world actually works.

Do you know what is ironic here?  Your response is just like a mirror image of your own heart's views and beliefs.  You are the one who likes to be the "superior" leader/teacher/name caller when it comes to discussions about God.  I don't really care what names I'm called, I'm just saying that name calling, etc. is NOT the way to discuss and debate. None of us are perfect and the most learned in these things, but we are not stupid and ignorant either.  

As Jesus also says in Matthew 6:1-5:  "Judge not, that ye be not judged.  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?  Thou hyprocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

In other words, please quit judging others without first seeing what is in your own heart.  You can debate your views, qon, without being judgmental and "superior."

[Annella]

Just to clarify: Falconer is not mean.  When he jokes and you don't get it, that is a generational gap, jcribb.  Him pointing out the fallacies in someone's thinking: again, not mean.  In fact, he does a much better job in not getting frustrated by other people's stupidity than I do.

Oh geez!  Qon just called us stupid!  Well, not directly.  People need to grow up and stop getting all butt hurt when someone else points out how they're wrong; that their beliefs are silly, fictitious, fallacious, or dangerous.  The only way you can grow as a person is to admit that yes, even *you* can be stupid and be carrying around stupid ideas (what a concept, I know!).  Sure you have the "right" to not listen to other people or not take them seriously, but just know it is a character fault if you assume you alone have it all figured out; that you couldn't possibly ever learn from the opposition, and that no one in the room is smarter than you.

This is not an opinion, this is how the world actually works.

Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious.

Nope.  Not opinion.  

What you don't understand and one of the biggest keys to all of this is that you are playing with a major handicap.  Most Christians are so emotionally, physically, financially, etc. invested in their beliefs that reason and reality don't/wouldn't work on them.  They've built up this wall of stubbornness because they so desperately want their beliefs to be true. They think if they can will their beliefs to be true, that actually makes them true, when in reality, they are blind to so much.  

I really think you all are either terrified of there not being a god and death being the end, or you just really, really want there to be a heaven to the point that your unfounded hopes become a dependence to function in life.  It's fun to get passionate about a cause, even if that cause is ultimately false, which is where we see a lot of the gusto for Christ.

You're immersed in the religious culture, either forced by birth or as your own choice early on.  Now that you've invested all of this time and you have a gaggle of people you enjoy spending time with who also perpetuate the lie, you are blinded once again by "strength in numbers".  Another major roadblock in seeing that your "truth" is only true to you.

It can be quite shocking if you ever have the strength to take your blinders off and see the world for how it really is...the sooner you do it, the more time you save in your precious, one and only life.

You are hilarious!!  Honest, I have to tell you, when I read your posts, I laughed for the longest time.

What in the world do we have to be terrified about?  LOL  I think you are so mixed up in your thought process, you have no idea what we are all about.  Goodness girl, can't you see you are projecting your own thoughts and fears?

[Milkyspecial]

I believe there is heaven in hell, I think that if you go to hell your reincarnated into a bad life. But if you go to heaven your reincarnated into a good, happy life.

[Falconer02]

Those are character traits I was pointing out.  I've never called anyone a cuss name, however, I've been called a "*bleep*" more than once. Cussed out to.....seasoned with the "f' word.  I'll Clarify once more, I did not call you an idiot, I said you were talking to Jcribb like she was an idiot.  I've mentioned this twice, so chill out.  No, I don't recall you ever calling me names.  You are correct in that.

You ridin' a thin line there, giiirrrl! I must have missed the idiot part though. And you were f-bombed here on FC?

Yeah, you've mentioned before you have been a Christian.  You are not the only one.  It seems those of you who are so rotten to us have been Christians before, and now they are going to give "us" what for!

Not really. Ultimately we're all just arguing. Both sides will nip here and there. Our freethinking stances are based upon what we have seen, studied, and currently see going on in the world. We aren't using impossible aspects as a line of reasoning and then laughing at the rationale.

I also have to take into account that (maybe) you didn't get a real experience with God. I know of people that got turned off Christianity because they got involved in a church that had leadership that wasn't saved themselves, and hurt people.

If you're talking about the emotional opiate, I'm a guy. I don't really run that route! However, I will say that these beliefs in the christian god did comfort me growing up a lot. I adamantly supported it. There were some idiots at my church (no, seriously. Complete idiots.), but I usually avoided them. I studied scripture a lot when I was younger. Then, as I grew up and studied things outside of christianity, I just realized it's one view of many many others. That it supports the impossible and displays magic as truth just made me groan at my past stance. When Queen stated-

They've built up this wall of stubbornness because they so desperately want their beliefs to be true. They think if they can will their beliefs to be true, that actually makes them true, when in reality, they are blind to so much.

That's exactly what I was. No offense, but knowing the whole "There'd be no room for faith if god could just waltz down and show you! And the only way to god is through faith!" reasoning is just so wacky and disturbing since the problem is so obvious. It is a good tactic to hold followers who are really drilled into it. After a while I guess you could just say I outgrew it. My brother shares a similar story, and he made the good point of atleast we have the knowledge of looking in at it now.

God does work in the realm of the impossible.  I've seen it with my own eyes.  Would you believe me?  I'll tell you right now.....no  I've told of some things I've witnessed personally, and been called a liar.  Why should we try to prove God to you when you have no intention of believing it anyway?

Were you the user that said you saw someone with AIDS get healed from the disease? I don't remember. Anyways, we'd strongly be with you if you could show us any proof that would surpass elementary skepticism. But that's never the case. It never has been with any Christian or any religion for that matter. Infact if you or anyone here could show proof, there'd be a million dollars in it for you via James Randi!   I know it shouldn't be about $, but think of all the good you could do with that money. But instead, there's this reliance on this "believe the impossible" test that I see trying to strike at realism and rationality and you and Jcribb just keep laughing at reason. It's fine to call it faith, but we call it a handicap aspect. Again, nobody can use the impossible as an argumentative tool in a debate. I'm not sure why we've prolonged this so far since there's this major gap.

[teflonfanatic]

I think I finally understand falconor's believe and people like him. I think he hangs on to the seeing is believing crowd. However he and others like him accept things they can't see because they can tie it to something physical or can see the results with their eyes. I.E. They can't see emotion but they can link it to the brain or the persons body movements etc. They can't see the wind or gravity but they see the physical effect of it so they believe it anyway. That's three things that can't be seen in the physical world.  I wonder what else can't be seen in the physical world?  

@falconor: Is that a star or a planet?

Deneb is a star.  You can also see how planets and the sun stack up against other stars through this video.  I have a series of pictures demonstrating the same thing with the most relevant ones to the discussion being these two:

If your correct the school system lied to me.

[Falconer02]

I think I finally understand falconor's believe and people like him. I think he hangs on to the seeing is believing crowd. However he and others like him accept things they can't see because they can tie it to something physical or can see the results with their eyes. I.E. They can't see emotion but they can link it to the brain or the persons body movements etc. They can't see the wind or gravity but they see the physical effect of it so they believe it anyway. That's three things that can't be seen in the physical world.

Brilliant, Holmes.

I wonder what else can't be seen in the physical world?

Flying unicorns with cloaking devices from Star Trek. Metaphysical monsters from different dimensions. Leprechauns. And the biggest one of all-- ESKIMOS!

[Annella]

Those are character traits I was pointing out.  I've never called anyone a cuss name, however, I've been called a "*bleep*" more than once. Cussed out to.....seasoned with the "f' word.  I'll Clarify once more, I did not call you an idiot, I said you were talking to Jcribb like she was an idiot.  I've mentioned this twice, so chill out.  No, I don't recall you ever calling me names.  You are correct in that.

You ridin' a thin line there, giiirrrl! I must have missed the idiot part though. And you were f-bombed here on FC?

Yeah, you've mentioned before you have been a Christian.  You are not the only one.  It seems those of you who are so rotten to us have been Christians before, and now they are going to give "us" what for!

Not really. Ultimately we're all just arguing. Both sides will nip here and there. Our freethinking stances are based upon what we have seen, studied, and currently see going on in the world. We aren't using impossible aspects as a line of reasoning and then laughing at the rationale.

I also have to take into account that (maybe) you didn't get a real experience with God. I know of people that got turned off Christianity because they got involved in a church that had leadership that wasn't saved themselves, and hurt people.

If you're talking about the emotional opiate, I'm a guy. I don't really run that route! However, I will say that these beliefs in the christian god did comfort me growing up a lot. I adamantly supported it. There were some idiots at my church (no, seriously. Complete idiots.), but I usually avoided them. I studied scripture a lot when I was younger. Then, as I grew up and studied things outside of christianity, I just realized it's one view of many many others. That it supports the impossible and displays magic as truth just made me groan at my past stance. When Queen stated-

They've built up this wall of stubbornness because they so desperately want their beliefs to be true. They think if they can will their beliefs to be true, that actually makes them true, when in reality, they are blind to so much.

That's exactly what I was. No offense, but knowing the whole "There'd be no room for faith if god could just waltz down and show you! And the only way to god is through faith!" reasoning is just so wacky and disturbing since the problem is so obvious. It is a good tactic to hold followers who are really drilled into it. After a while I guess you could just say I outgrew it. My brother shares a similar story, and he made the good point of atleast we have the knowledge of looking in at it now.

God does work in the realm of the impossible.  I've seen it with my own eyes.  Would you believe me?  I'll tell you right now.....no  I've told of some things I've witnessed personally, and been called a liar.  Why should we try to prove God to you when you have no intention of believing it anyway?

Were you the user that said you saw someone with AIDS get healed from the disease? I don't remember. Anyways, we'd strongly be with you if you could show us any proof that would surpass elementary skepticism. But that's never the case. It never has been with any Christian or any religion for that matter. Infact if you or anyone here could show proof, there'd be a million dollars in it for you via James Randi!   I know it shouldn't be about $, but think of all the good you could do with that money. But instead, there's this reliance on this "believe the impossible" test that I see trying to strike at realism and rationality and you and Jcribb just keep laughing at reason. It's fine to call it faith, but we call it a handicap aspect. Again, nobody can use the impossible as an argumentative tool in a debate. I'm not sure why we've prolonged this so far since there's this major gap.

Uh, yes, right here on Fusion Cash.

Yes, it was me (about the healing of AIDS).  I offered to provide phone numbers to jordandog, but was told it wouldn't prove anything because I could just have anyone say anything.  I've seen a deaf and dumb man hear and speak. I was there. His phonics were off, but we asked him to say "Praise God", and he did!  Thing is falconer, when I tell of these things, I get it dissected into falsehood, and thrown back into my face.  I don't feel like giving such nuggets of gold out, just to be mocked.  They are too precious to lay out for ridicule.  There are things I've seen and witnessed, that it would seem like a fairy tale.  Anyway.......how can I prove it, except to put you in contact with those that were healed?  Would you believe it then, or still accuse me of falsehood?  The threads are still around somewhere, I can't remember the title.  It went on a long time.

Keep the money.  The Gospel, and it's Truth is free to anyone.  You know Falconer, the Bible talks about a generation who wants to see a sign, and no sign will be given to them. We don't exact or command God to show us anything.  Did it ever occur to you that what I'm telling you what I witnessed, may be what God gauges your heart with?  In other words, I don't know your heart, but God does. I know enough about the Lord to say with assurance that if a sign would bring you to Him, he would probably provide it.  Maybe it has to be something personal that only you and He works out.  So it's personal and undeniable.  I've known people to ask God for confirmation about one thing or the other.  Not tell anyone, just in their heart, and God answered them.  Something that needs divine intervention or it won't get fixed. Not something for gain like "If you give me X amount of dollars by such and such of date".......you won't see squat because you asked incorrectly.

[amyrouse]

If your correct the school system lied to me.

You've been lied to, then.  The sun appears to be the brightest and most powerful because it is the closest to Earth.  If you do a quick google search, though, you will see that it is not the most luminous or largest star out there.  Appearance depends greatly upon where you stand.   

[jcribb16]

Quote from Falconer:
But instead, there's this reliance on this "believe the impossible" test that I see trying to strike at realism and rationality and you and Jcribb just keep laughing at reason. It's fine to call it faith, but we call it a handicap aspect. Again, nobody can use the impossible as an argumentative tool in a debate. I'm not sure why we've prolonged this so far since there's this major gap.

Whoa, there...  I am not laughing at reason. Please don't accuse me of something I have not done or even said I've done.

[Falconer02]

Uh, yes, right here on Fusion Cash.

Bleh. Sorry to hear that.

Yes, it was me (about the healing of AIDS).  I offered to provide phone numbers to jordandog, but was told it wouldn't prove anything because I could just have anyone say anything.  I've seen a deaf and dumb man hear and speak. I was there. His phonics were off, but we asked him to say "Praise God", and he did!  Thing is falconer, when I tell of these things, I get it dissected into falsehood, and thrown back into my face.  I don't feel like giving such nuggets of gold out, just to be mocked.  They are too precious to lay out for ridicule.  There are things I've seen and witnessed, that it would seem like a fairy tale.  Anyway.......how can I prove it, except to put you in contact with those that were healed?  Would you believe it then, or still accuse me of falsehood?  The threads are still around somewhere, I can't remember the title.  It went on a long time.

Well I won't mock you here. I will contest your claims though. After all, you are diving into a controversial subject- faith healing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ-7beRITYM

There is no cure for AIDS. Has this person seen a doctor afterwards? Is there something online you can show me where this was documented? This is BIG news to me if it's true, so I need to be skeptical in order to believe it. It's the smart thing to do, right? Because one could conclude either the person didn't have AIDS in the first place (perhaps it was a ruse), their test was fumbled up (with certain tests of this nature, there are mistakes made-- 'fluke' is a key term here), or they were never examined afterwards and may still have it (symptoms may not show up years after the diagnosis). Did they order the test via mail or did they go to a hospital? What was the time gap between being diagnosed and healed? Was the doctor/nurse of this infectee from the church? If I were in your position, I would make it mandatory for myself to present these things to the people questioning. Because if I don't, this might as well be another "Miracle cure tonic" like in the old days.

Don't get me wrong- that would be amazing if this could be proven to be completely true. This is a massive and problematic disease after all! I can imagine if this were authentic faith healing, infected people would be lining up for miles to wherever this took place. I would hear about it constantly on the news from famous skeptics-- "AIDS cure found! No joke! Authentic! Faith!". You'd make a believer outta me in seconds if I could see this in action. But there are massive hurdles that I don't see being answered. Isn't it a bit selfish to just heal one person, and not go around curing the millions who are stricken with this horrific disease (that also believe your ways)? Then there's also the people who are just so into it that their stubbornness, fearfulness, and delusional thinking would allow for complete lies. Sure you could put me in contact with the "healed", but honestly look at those victims in the video. They believe they've been healed by this con man too!

I'd believe this once the questions have been answered and are majorly in favor of your beliefs. It would prove me wrong, and I'd have no beef with that! I'd tip my hat to you. But is that the case? Would all these questions result in unexplainable phenomena? I highly doubt it. This is not rudely throwing your claims back in your face. I'm just sliding it back and saying "need mo info".

Keep the money.  The Gospel, and it's Truth is free to anyone.  You know Falconer, the Bible talks about a generation who wants to see a sign, and no sign will be given to them. We don't exact or command God to show us anything.  Did it ever occur to you that what I'm telling you what I witnessed, may be what God gauges your heart with?  In other words, I don't know your heart, but God does. I know enough about the Lord to say with assurance that if a sign would bring you to Him, he would probably provide it.  Maybe it has to be something personal that only you and He works out.  So it's personal and undeniable.  I've known people to ask God for confirmation about one thing or the other.  Not tell anyone, just in their heart, and God answered them.  Something that needs divine intervention or it won't get fixed. Not something for gain like "If you give me X amount of dollars by such and such of date".......you won't see squat because you asked incorrectly.

My point with the money was just to help out others-- not personal financial gain. If you think this AIDS thing is legit, go test it out at JREF. But this is getting a little too personal to the point where if I tread on anything in this paragraph, I'm going to step on a tripmine and I don't want to upset you with my chin rubbing. That, and I'm lazy tonight and don't feel like writing 12 paragraphs.

Edit:

Whoa, there...  I am not laughing at reason. Please don't accuse me of something I have not done or even said I've done.

My mistake. Sorry. Too many words in this thread to remember who said what and where.

[jcribb16]

Edit:
Quote from jcribb:
Whoa, there...  I am not laughing at reason. Please don't accuse me of something I have not done or even said I've done.

Quote from Falconer:
My mistake. Sorry. Too many words in this thread to remember who said what and where.

Thank you, Falconer.

[Trebor64]

Seriously If you say you don't believe in God or Hell, then you are admitting to their existence. but you are choosing not to believe because you you feel it is easier than dealing with the guilt that you have for doing things that you know are morally wrong. I personally know God and I am not worried about your choice to believe in error as opposed to accepting truth. I hope you can get over your own pride and hypocrisy before you find out the hard way how really wrong your thinking is aligned.

[Trebor64]

I Do Believe in God and Hell, I Don't, however, believe in President Barrak Hussein Obama or his politics, But that doesn't make him any less real or less of a threat to my well being now does it? And since I have never met him in person nor I bet have you, I seriously doubt you could prove Obama really exists either. Wouldn't you like to know his real name?