So your agreeing that just being good doesn't guarantee that you go to heaven yes? Also you state that the numbers verse is a parable? Ok, let me get a verse where God actually says so ok?
Hosea 11:8-10 reads I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Here God himself says he is not man(flesh and blood human), his gender on the other hand if it is possible for spirits to have genders anyway will probably be male. Even if you scream OUT OF CONTEXT, it doesn't change the fact that God himself said he was NOT MAN
"The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses). Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7. It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10."
I'm sad you didn't get to read my comment on this here it is again, The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's were in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'll be saved(meaning I do believe in once saved always saved) whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved? Righteous overmuch?
Now off my comment, you said that Revelation 7 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, however even if I was to agree with you the 144K is from every tribe, tongue and nation TODAY!!!!
Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
All the Jews were Hebrews, to say that only Hebrews where in every tribe, tongue and people and nation is stretching it.
The verse above is also in harmony with Galatians 3:28-29 which reads 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
Also Romans 2:28-29 . 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
You are throwing out scriptures or portions of scriptures that have nothing to do with each other, and confusing the issue being discussed. God is NOT the author of confusion. Scripture interprets scripture and the Word flows together.
Many times, God spoke of His humanity (Jesus) or His diety (God). Sometimes He spoke of both in some scriptures, and sometimes His diety, humanity, and Spirit (Holy Ghost).
In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray. He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would). He is God in the midst of them and not man. He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises.
Now.....get your Bible and read the 7th Chapter of Revelations. The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel, and it lists all 12 tribes, and there were 12,000 taken from each tribe. These are full Jews (Children of Israel). Now....look at:
Revelation 7:9-10After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:13-14And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So lets recap shall we:
1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
These were mentioned AFTER the 144,000 were sealed. This is a multitude without number. The redeemed.Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?
We are grafted into the covenant of the Jews promise when we are redeemed (saved). We are the Children of Abraham by
redemption. However, we are gentiles, grafted into the true vine......not Jewish. There are feasts, cove
nants, and recognitions of such that the Jews are ordered to remember forever (Passover). We as gentiles are not. Circumcision was a covenant that God made with the Hebrew children. It was a type and shadow now of the redeemed, and being circumcised of the heart. There are many types and shadows of the of the Old Testament, that point to Jesus, and the Salvation plan. However, I'm a gentile, not a Jew. Amy is Jewish. She was born Jewish. Our redemption grafts us into the promises and covenants, but we are not by flesh...Jews.
Once saved, always saved? I don't think so: Where in the Bible does it say that? In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite. You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.
Heres a scripture for you if you don't think God was not a man, He was Jesus!
1 Timothy 3:16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two). We can do that. However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.
Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings?
Righteous overmuch? What do you mean by that?
Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT". I did not scream anything. Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't. I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life. I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist. Would you like to compare credentials. Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge. I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world. That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.[/quote]
Quotes i'm responding to are numbered in order you said them.
1. "In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray. He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would). He is God in the midst of them and not man. He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises."
Thank you for the context of the verse but he's still saying he's not a man.
2. Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So lets recap shall we:
1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
Right but these are after the 144K, that are bought from the earth or sealed as Revelation 7:4 reads
Revelation 14:1-5 makes it clear that the 144K are bought from the earth and are the first fruits of mankind.
14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
The ones that are not of the 144K the other sheep are of the earth, these are the ones that are going to reside on it forever. The verse below is a prophecy(I checked the context)
Psalms 37:29 reads 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.
Although it says land in KJ, verses 27 and 28 imply an unlimited time, who possesses a land forever?
3. Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?
Just quoting so I can explain it easier and for emphasis
9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
To show you that the 144K are from all of mankind and not just Hebrews/Israelites, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but no one has been proven by science to be apart of the line of Jesus(that is Hebrew/Israelite) which is the same as being a fleshly Jew(literal Jew) but you can be a spirituality Jewish even though someone is a gentile as I already pointed out in my previous post. Hebrews/Israelites are one people, their not part of the native american tribes, they don't speak Icelandic though it might have been possible during pentecost :-, Hebrews/Israelites are not hawaiian and they didn't have a nation God didn't approve of(unless they sinned), I can go on and on but I think you get the point. This also corresponds to Revelation 14 because only the 144K are mentioned to be singing a new song and they are also the only ones mentioned to rule as kings over the earth.
This is in harmony with Matthew 22:28-30 28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
For one thing, we are not talking about who is going to rule the earth. We are not talking about the proof of trinity over one God either. However, I addressed this in another thread myself. Either stay on topic, or you can debate this by yourself. I've conversed with JW's before, and you all like to confuse the topic with throwing out a bunch of scriptures that don't even pertain to the topic. It does not lend credence to your side of debate, it only confuses the issue, which I believe you do deliberately.
I wrote down clear and concise scriptures on the 144,000. You either believe it or not. I gave proof (in scripture) of the 12 tribes of Israel (are Jews and nobody else), and the 12,000 are taken from each tribe, to total 144,000. I also pinpointed the redeemed, who is the multitude without number.
ALL is in the 7th Chapter of Revelation.
Now.....if you don't believe what the Bible says, then we have nothing to discuss. What I do see here is you are pulling all kinds of scripture into this that have NOTHING to do with what we are discussing.
Your scripture you threw out there In Matthew 22:28-30, is NOT in harmony at all with what we are discussing (your words above) It is about a woman marrying and her husbands dying, and who's wife shall she be in the resurrection.....on and on. Clearly not what we are talking about!!!!
What are the scriptures about possessing the earth? What has that got to do with the 144,000? We are not talking about possessing the earth. That is a total different study and subject altogether.
What in the world does Psalms 37:29 have to do with what we are talking about? Yes, it says that the righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever. So
Since you cannot seem to stay on topic, but are throwing in scriptures here and there that have nothing to do with what we are talking about, I don't have time for games like this. It's like you are snarling the subject up as much as possible, and trying to hide the true meaning under a bunch of scriptures that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.
In Genesis Chapter 49, it tells of the twelve tribe of Israel.1. Rueben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Zebulun
6. Issachar
7. Dan
8. Gad
9. Asher
10. Naphtali
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin
All Hebrew Children..........
Revelation Chapter 7: 4-8
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. All the tribes are mentioned in this Chapter of being sealed. Twelve thousand from each tribe.
Another scripture you quoted: In Rev 14:1-5 Yes, they are from the earth, and they are the firstfruits, they have not defiled themselves with women, which lends to them being male, virgins point to them being young. Maybe even the unborn, or children. Doesn't remove the fact that they are still Jews.
Firstfruits: according to Strongs Concordance (Rev. 14:4) definition in the Old Greek (536):
aparche, ap-ar-khayd'; from a compound or 575 and 576; a beginning of sacrifice, i.e. the (Jewish) first-
fruit (fig.) first-fruits
(copied verbatim from Concordance Greek definition of firstfruits)What makes you think that the 144,000, and the righteous are the only ones on earth during the 1,000 year reign or years of peace where the Lion lays down with the lamb, etc. etc? This is the time when satan is bound for 1,000 years, and life continues on earth in peace. Jesus, and his redeemed will rule and reign with him. There are still people left on the earth. The earth doesn't get destroyed until after the devil has been loosed and there is the war to end all wars. Then there is a new Heaven and new Earth.
However, this is off topic.
Community Forum
Topic: Are you a good person according to God's standards? Good Enough To Go To... (Read 22018 times)
September 01, 2010, 06:59:31 pm
