Um, Why Was "If you believe in God, You're a retard" Locked?

[jordandog]

In addition to what I said about atheists/myself taking my morals and moral framework from society, haven't christians/believers themselves changed that moral framework they were given because of influence from the society they live in? According to the moral framework in the Bible, was it NOT morally acceptable to stone or kill a woman who was a prostitute, cut off the hand of a thief, all the other things that are no longer acceptable in today's world for the most part? I say "most part" because I know that those very behaviours ARE still acceptable in parts of the world. We all know society does NOT say it is justifiable or okay to stone or kill prostitutes and that very society includes atheists and agnostics. I don't think any christian or believer can say they DO NOT model parts of their morality outside the parameters given by a 'moral law maker'.

I hope what I have said makes some sense. I'm tired, need once again to get some sleep, but I know what I am attempting to get across here.....

[cwoodard34]

ok so i feel that no one is retarded

[queenofnines]

People don't kill over religion either

Now that is just a bold-faced lie.  Did you not read where I agreed with you that some people will do bad things religion or not, but "you're forgetting an entirely separate branch of evil which is bad things done specifically in the name of god that could not be justified without a belief in said god"?  I swear, y'all just gloss right over the good points non-Christians make.

People who don't believe in a moral law giver have no moral framework with which to model themselves.

I'd like to invest stock in thinking caps and pass them out...my moral framework is exactly the same as yours.  

Do you follow U.S. laws when it comes to driving, going to school, paying your taxes, and other basic things?  Cool, I do too.  

Would you rather not get killed, and realize that society would fall apart if we all killed each other?  Cool, I do too!  

Do you realize that stealing undermines the business system, raising prices for everyone?  Hey, I'm with you there, too!

Do you ignore the Bible when it says stone unruly children, kill a woman who's not a virgin on her wedding night, kill homosexuals, kill witches, kill adulterers, kill those who worship another/no god, kill those who curse their parents, and kill those who work on the Sabbath?  Hey, me too!  

Atheism doesn't believe in a moral law giver, therefore each person models their morals after what is important to them as an individual.

Uh, no, everyone does.  But that is really only for the little stuff, like if one person thinks it's wrong to use profanity ever and the next doesn't care.  There are common morals that most SANE humans share, to include don't murder or rape (both of which are commanded in the Bible, btw).  Y'all must not think very highly of humanity if you think we need a magical sky father telling us that killing and raping innocents is wrong.

Hitler got off scott free. There was no accountability. He killed himself, and according to you, that's it. There is no justice for the people he slaughtered according to atheism.

And your idea of "justice" is having Hitler be in agony for all eternity?  Please.  That's not justice.  That's just sick.

I know it sucks and is horrible that some people get away with unthinkable crimes, but try to keep those feelings grounded and face reality.  Wishing bad people to an invisible bad place won't do an ounce of good.  All we can do is try to learn from these atrocities and prevent them in the future.  You are, again, asking the wrong thing to demand "justice" where none is possible (other than the fact that Hitler is dead and can no longer do harm...is that not good enough??).  The universe doesn't owe us ANYTHING, it just is.

Christian children do not grow up chanting about hate towards any other types of people.

Some of them most certainly do.  And the rest get indoctrinated and brainwashed of a different color.

This doesn't change the fact that a control hungry maniac like Hitler, took Darwin's racism and comments about obliterating inferior races of peoples and ran with it.

And teen's have killed themselves to Blink-182's "Adam's Song".

If there were no religion and no one believed in God, I can't imagine the havoc that would be wrought among power hungry individuals and the unfortunate people whom they wish to control or eliminate.

I'm sure that would happen to some degree, but do you seriously think eliminating religion would not help anything?

Hmmm, sorry but the Cambrian explosion actually made a very bad case for common ancestry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1-Iqt02Asg

[shernajwine]

"

you're forgetting an entirely separate branch of evil which is bad things done specifically in the name of god that could not be justified without a belief in said god"?

It still isn't justified with a belief in God. If the person is a Christian and slaughtering in the name of God, they are violating the tenets of their faith. So it has nothing to do with the religion itself, it is about the person doing things in the name of a religion that clearly says they are wrong.

murder or rape (both of which are commanded in the Bible

Either you have some type of memory disorder or you have conveniently forgotten where I showed you that the bible does not command rape and murder 

If matter is all there is, there is no moral law. Bottom line. Your actions have nothing to do with ultimate morality and conditioned with society.

Here is a brief exchange between you and I from another thread.

Me

And even more to the point.....the ability to thwart the ruling genes would imply free will, which determinism extinguishes! You either believe you have free will and therefore your mind is not controlled alone by the physical brain, or you believe that everything is subject to naturalistic explanations and subject completely to physical laws giving you NO FREE WILL. If you have NO FREE WILL, then any acts of societal immorality aren't your fault, and therefore permissible in a sense because you had NO CHOICE. Does this sound reasonable to you?

You

Nope, it doesn't sound reasonable from my limited perspective.  It definitely would not be in our best interest to go spreading that message - even if it is ultimately true.

If you came from mindless matter, anything you do is because you were determined to do. Hitler was determined to do what he did and therefore no one has a right to admonish him for it. Even the actions of people who you would like to use as examples for your mission of eradicating religion, were determined to be and act the way they did.

Some of them most certainly do

Examples?

And teen's have killed themselves to Blink-182's "Adam's Song".

Either you are completely missing my point or you refuse to just admit you were wrong in trying to blame Catholicism for Hitler's actions. The POINT is that Hitler WAS influenced by the writings of Darwin.

do you seriously think eliminating religion would not help anything

Yep.

[shernajwine]

In addition to what I said about atheists/myself taking my morals and moral framework from society, haven't christians/believers themselves changed that moral framework they were given because of influence from the society they live in? According to the moral framework in the Bible, was it NOT morally acceptable to stone or kill a woman who was a prostitute, cut off the hand of a thief, all the other things that are no longer acceptable in today's world for the most part? I say "most part" because I know that those very behaviours ARE still acceptable in parts of the world. We all know society does NOT say it is justifiable or okay to stone or kill prostitutes and that very society includes atheists and agnostics. I don't think any christian or believer can say they DO NOT model parts of their morality outside the parameters given by a 'moral law maker'.

I hope what I have said makes some sense. I'm tired, need once again to get some sleep, but I know what I am attempting to get across here.....

Unfortunately Christians have become insensitive to issues as they become acceptable to society. As for stonings and what not in the bible, that is the equivalent to getting the death penalty today. That is how they carried out the law, and the laws were MUCH stricter in those times. The crime to population ratio was also incredibly lower! God's people were given very strict laws in which to set them apart from other nations. When Jesus came to fulfill that law, the necessity for those laws became moot.

So, as for comparing laws from the bible, well the  moral laws that Christians SHOULD abide by are still framed by the law giver but under a new covenant. Laws that still set us apart from the world. Does every Christian do it? No. That's what sin is! However, they can't make an excuse for their immorality because EVEN if society says something is okay, by God's morals (which are very strict) we as Christians violate our beliefs when we deny that law and act on our own guide of what is right and wrong.

A person calling themselves Christian and advocating gay marriage, abortion, etc...they are violating Christian belief. That doesn't eliminate the law giver, it just means that Christian is violating the law. A non-Christian does not have this framework and therefore (to them) are not violating anything. They are free to form their own values. And in some, this freedom is abused as an excuse to do what they will.

My point is that, forming your own morals and values seems great and liberating until someone abuses it and because there is no ultimate morality they technically are not in the wrong. Your morals are no better than the neighbors who chooses to torture neighborhood cats with pellet guns. Oh, wait...society says it's wrong? Who cares, with morality, majority doesn't matter. My vote alone counts, and as long as I can get away with it, it isn't wrong.

If God says it's wrong, then there is something by which to measure good and evil. No one has an excuse if there is an objective morality. There can't be an objective morality without the existence of a moral God.

A Christian modeling even a portion their morals outside of God's moral framework are violating their Christian beliefs.

[queenofnines]

It still isn't justified with a belief in God. If the person is a Christian and slaughtering in the name of God, they are violating the tenets of their faith. So it has nothing to do with the religion itself, it is about the person doing things in the name of a religion that clearly says they are wrong.

Well god both commands people to murder but also says "thou shalt not kill", so can you blame people for being confused?

Just because you follow a peaceful, lovey version of Christianity (due to secular morality, I might add) doesn't mean person X's Christianity that follows the Bible literally is less valid.  You're both equally invalid.

Either you have some type of memory disorder or you have conveniently forgotten where I showed you that the bible does not command rape and murder

People can read the Bible for themselves and then decide if they want to read it plainly, or jump though hoops justifying all of the atrocities away with excuses of "historical/scriptural context" like you do.  

If god said/did something and it's bad, it's bad period.  No excuses allowed.

If matter is all there is, there is no moral law. Bottom line. Your actions have nothing to do with ultimate morality and conditioned with society.

Yes, there is no "ultimate moral law".  You act like you've just said checkmate with this, when you haven't.  There is no ultimate moral law with god either because if god decided murder was okay, it would be okay because god says so, not because murder is "ultimately" bad or good.  And now you want to claim that god would never say murder is good, "god doesn't change", when he clearly does over and over again in the Bible.  Also, god would trump the laws because he makes the laws, so if god says go kill your kids, you would have to do it.  What do you think about that?

Morality evolves because we don't always get it right.  While raping might not be "bad" in some universal sense, it's bad for practical reasons, and that's reason enough not to do it.  I don't need some outside force's stamp of denial to know certain behaviors aren't ideal.  It comes down to cause and effect, and that's science.

If you came from mindless matter, anything you do is because you were determined to do.

Determinism isn't proven, so stop acting like it is.  No one lives like determinism is true.  There is a difference between the inanimate (rocks) and the animate (you), and that difference is the ability to predict our own futures and play out events before they happen.

just admit you were wrong in trying to blame Catholicism for Hitler's actions.

I didn't 100% blame Catholicism, although he did say he was doing "god's work".  And extinguishing the JEWS?  Come on, now...surely you see the connection.  The only reason I ever mention Hitler is because people like to accuse him of having being an atheist, when he wasn't.

[queenofnines]

A person calling themselves Christian and advocating gay marriage, abortion, etc...they are violating Christian belief...A non-Christian does not have this framework and therefore (to them) are not violating anything.

It's not violating anything because there's nothing to violate.  There is no rational reason to prohibit gays from marrying...it's really quite horrible for you guys to wage so much hate against something that represents LOVE.  And I really don't know why you don't get on the atheist/agnostic boat, too, and say WE aren't allowed to marry...we're desecrating the "sanctity" of marriage too, aren't we?

I know why you guys don't speak out against atheist marriage...it's because you know you'd look friggin' NUTS if you did.  But gays?  They stick penises in butts and that's gross, so *now* we actually have something here.   

with morality, majority doesn't matter.

Yes it does.  You can do naughty things all you like, but if you're infringing on the rights of another, you're going to get locked up.  This state of things maximizes health, happiness, and harmony for the most people.

If God says it's wrong, then there is something by which to measure good and evil.

Yeah, but have you ever asked yourself WHY the things he says are wrong are "wrong"?  Sex outside of marriage, for instance: completely bogus.  There's no good reason to harp on and on about that.  Safe sex, committed partner?  Yes.  Owning a piece of paper that says you're wed?  No.

[jcribb16]

You know, I've written this before, and I will write it again.  The Old Testament of the Bible changed after Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected the 3rd day (Easter.)  Jesus was our sacrifice and is now our mediator between Him and God, the Father.  In the Old Testament, sacrifices were given (such as animals.) When Abraham was told to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice, Abraham did not want to do that but trusted God had a reason and would take care of him and Isaac.  God already knew He would NOT allow it to happen, but it showed the depth and loyalty of Abraham to God.  God then provided the lamb himself, in the bushes.  Sounds strange to me, I will admit, but that's the way it was.  We are not commanded to do that today, from the New Testament, since Jesus IS our sacrifice and our way to eternal life with God.  I know you don't believe this, but that's okay.  I'm telling it anyway.  We can debate all day on this, if we need to - I will just keep delving deeper to shed light on this.

[shernajwine]

People can read the Bible for themselves and then decide if they want to read it plainly, or jump though hoops justifying all of the atrocities away with excuses of "historical/scriptural context" like you do. 

If god said/did something and it's bad, it's bad period.  No excuses allowed.

And you jump through hoops denying any legitimate explanations, to justify your "God is evil" message. God never did anything bad. No excuses needed.

There is no ultimate moral law with god either because if god decided murder was okay, it would be okay because god says so,

God wouldn't decide murder is okay. And you need to understand the murder we are talking about, killing without cause. Murder is not the same as killing. There is accidental murder, which the commandment "Thou shall not kill" doesn't apply to. There is killing in war which is inevitable and necessary in defending a just cause, this is not what the commandment refers to. Murdering someone is evil, God is incapable of evil and therefore cannot commit nor would condone or command it.

While raping might not be "bad" in some universal sense, it's bad for practical reasons

So what about the person who disagrees with you? The rapist who thinks, there is no moral standard but his own and he is not wrong? The law may hold him responsible but that still doesn't make it personally defined as wrong. He made his own morals and values and exerting power in the form of rape just so happened to make him happy. With no objective moral law, he is not wrong, no matter how many people would disagree with it, they are only disagreeing from their own personal morals, which are no better since there is no ultimate moral law with which to define right and wrong.

Determinism isn't proven, so stop acting like it is.

LOL, I'm not acting like it is! I don't believe everything is physical and came from matter! You do! You can try to defend a non-determinist position but you only contradict yourself in terms of your own worldview! And the reason determinism ISN'T proven is BECAUSE the mind ISN'T physical. If you believe the mind is physical you only contradict your own belief in denying determinism. You can't have it both ways.

although he did say he was doing "god's work".  And extinguishing the JEWS?

Well it wasn't the Christian God. Here are a few quotes, funny....the atheists and agnostics here echo Hitler's hateful and intolerant words. 

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

    National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

    Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

    The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

    The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

    Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

    Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

[shernajwine]

I know why you guys don't speak out against atheist marriage...it's because you know you'd look friggin' NUTS if you did.

This is a nonsense comparison, one has nothing to do with the other. 

Yes it does.  You can do naughty things all you like, but if you're infringing on the rights of another, you're going to get locked up

There are laws which man has created to keep social order. However, how many people suffer abuse and the abuser is never caught. They don't get locked up. They made their own code of morality and essentially are perfectly justified to play out their own lusts on whatever hapless victim comes their way.

You tried to use the example...what if God said murder was ok? Well since morality is up for a majority vote, what if government and law makers said it was ok? As a matter of fact, they already have said it was okay, in the form of abortion. The majority (in power) redefined the boundaries of what is considered murder and said abortion is okay. 

Sex outside of marriage, for instance: completely bogus.

According to your personally fashioned set of morals and values. Not mine, because I hold myself accountable to a moral law giver who said it's not okay, He has his reasons (to which I am not going to waste my time here explaining and Annella actually did explain on another thread) and I trust my Creator wants what is best for me. This is what sets Christians apart from the world, or what should, if they truly value the righteousness God has called them to.

And also, the act of sex is what constituted marriage in the bible, there was no ceremony and a piece of paper. In which case, according to God, you are married by the act of sex. Any sexual act with a person outside of that first sexual act is considered adultery. So what you are defining as sex outside of marriage is not the same as God's definition.

[sheogorath15]

 

It takes more faith to not believe God exist!

I know what you're trying to say ("Look at the pretty, complex world!  I don't understand how this could have come about on its own!"), but your cliche statement is incorrect at the most basic level.

What is the proper definition of atheism?

A = "without"  Theism = "belief in god(s)"

What is the proper definition of faith?

Faith = Belief without good evidence, or belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

So how can I have "faith" (belief) in a lack of belief (atheism)?  Also, most peoples' reasons for atheism ARE based on logical proofs and material evidence - a.k.a. the exact opposite of faith.


It certainly takes more faith to believe in a god of talking snakes, cursed fruit, global floods, man-eating fish, virgin births, talking donkeys, etc. etc.!!  Remember, faith is belief without good evidence...and you certainly don't have good evidence for any of this!

[sheogorath15]

Not the nicest title fo' sure, but there was some good convo going.

Continued:

Did you all know that SCIENTISTS have proved that there is a section of the brain that is not available for use to anyone who does not believe in God.  It is only used when God is showing an individual an awesome secret.  Many scientists have become Christians when they had planned to devote their entire lives to prove there was no God.  In trying to prove this, they found out instead that there is a God.  Amen!

I hate when believers try to claim science for their side.  They seem to always end up epically failing!

Okay, #1: that is ridiculous to say "there is a whole section of brain not available to use for non-believers".  The part of the brain you are referring to is due to EVOLUTION and while atheists might use it LESS, this is certainly not something for your side to brag about because that area is where primitive irrationality stems from.

#2 Having an area in your brain that is susceptible to heavenly hallucinations only proves evolution, because when you die, so does your brain.  If "the god experience" was actually LEGIT, it would NOT be an integral part of your brain, because your personality can be completely changed if you get a head injury, making you NOT believe in god, or believe in a *different* god.

#3 92+% of the National Academy of Scientists don't believe in god.  That's not just a majority -- it's an overwhelming majority.  So what are you talkin' about?

The God Helmet: This Helmet Made Me Believe!!!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnRd49L7X3s

[Falconer02]

God is incapable of evil and therefore cannot commit nor would condone or command it.

And you jump through hoops denying any legitimate explanations, to justify your "God is evil" message. God never did anything bad. No excuses needed.

Except being ominpotent and omniscient and still creating (or being the catalyst for) the aspect of evil. Ultimately your god knows past, present, and future and he allows for this aspect to thrive as it will only prove his point and allow him victory. Thus he has a stacked deck and everyone around the table is dealing with a cheater under the guise* of him being a nice and honest guy. Unless you're going to introduce some crazy time paradox or go for some cop-out "we're mere humans and don't get it" argument, it's obvious his granting of free will is a clever lie. Can you explain to me through an understandable philosophy of how your god is not a cheater? That in itself is pretty evil. I'd really be interested in hearing your reasoning.

There are laws which man has created to keep social order. However, how many people suffer abuse and the abuser is never caught. They don't get locked up. They made their own code of morality and essentially are perfectly justified to play out their own lusts on whatever hapless victim comes their way.

So let's put tribal curses on them all. That'll make us feel all better. This hell idea seems pretty good, but I think voodoo is as well.

Well since morality is up for a majority vote, what if government and law makers said it was ok?

It has always been like this in societies though. Always. That's basically why there are differences within societies around the world. I think a better question would be why would any rational lawmakers in a decent country bluntly allow for all murder? What would provoke such a new moral? Zombies? This is a case-by-case situation and why there are different types of murder labels.

in the form of abortion

since there is no ultimate moral law with which to define right and wrong

Totally agree. The moral sense is such a burden when complexities arise.

[shernajwine]

Except being ominpotent and omniscient and still creating (or being the catalyst for) the aspect of evil. Ultimately your god knows past, present, and future and he allows for this aspect to thrive as it will only prove his point and allow him victory. Thus he has a stacked deck  and everyone around the table is dealing with a cheater under the guise* of him being a nice and honest guy. Unless you're going to introduce some crazy time paradox or go for some cop-out "we're mere humans and don't get it" argument, it's obvious his granting of free will is a clever lie. Can you explain to me through an understandable philosophy of how your god is not a cheater? That in itself is pretty evil. I'd really be interested in hearing your reasoning.

I really don't think you are interested in hearing my reasoning. Everything I say you determine is delusional, sooooooo unless your interest is having another reason to laugh at my delusion, then I'm not buying that. Besides the fact that you have already read my posts saying that God did not create evil. Evil is akin to darkness...darkness is not a created thing, it is the absence of light, the same with coldness, there is technically no such thing...cold is the absence of heat. Heat can be measured by thermal units because heat has energy, cold isn't the opposite of heat it is the absence of it.

And people who want to get out of the discomfort of the universe having had a beginning and a cause, have no problem going into realms of "craziness" in hypothesizing infinite universes and what not. So, since you already know that I believe that God exists outside of time, and outside of the restrictions of physical law (which he would have to be in order to create it) why would you find my reasoning interesting? Please don't patronize me with insincere "bait". You consider me delusional, well when it comes to my "God delusion" I am not ashamed of it. And no amount of opposing material that I have had the pleasure of reading has sounded very rational to me, so it's not likely that anything you or anyone else says who are not scientific experts are going to convince me that I'm wrong.

So let's put tribal curses on them all. That'll make us feel all better. This hell idea seems pretty good, but I think voodoo is as well.

Well this really has nothing to do with anything I said. Unless you are becoming obsessed with hell like queen is. 

[Falconer02]

Evil is akin to darkness...darkness is not a created thing, it is the absence of light,

But god created everything which would include the ( or the concept of the) absense of something, so...?

why would you find my reasoning interesting?

I have had the pleasure of reading has sounded very rational to me, so it's not likely that anything you or anyone else says who are not scientific experts are going to convince me that I'm wrong.

This isn't a science question though. It's philosophical! I'm trying to understand the mindset of someone who admits they don't understand a metaphysical beings purpose due to the limitations of nature but then says they understand at the same time. I may be shooting all over the place here, but if he's so well-defined with human qualities and yet he's so mysterious as to his ultimate agenda, why do you put blind faith in a mysterious but well-defined cheating deity? I mean if he were real and he was not cheating, there should be some natural reasons or supernatural explanations showing so to cover his tracks. Given my example of having a stacked deck, how would you explain he is not cheating without the use of the blind faith card? I hope I'm wording this right  

Well this really has nothing to do with anything I said. Unless you are becoming obsessed with hell like queen is.

Hahah nah. I only say this is because hell just seems to be the viable option for the religious at getting back at someone that gets away with something deemed evil. Curse them all!