Um, Why Was "If you believe in God, You're a retard" Locked?

[shernajwine]

Well I think you know where I am going with this. You can't say the supernatural is impossible in this universe if you are leaving open the idea that this universe has supernatural origins. And if you assert that the supernatural is impossible then you are back to belief in natural causes despite lack of evidence.

Understand I'm not talking about anything defined. I'm simply talking supernatural vs. natural causes for the origin of the universe. If you are leaving the interpretation of those causes open, then you are conceding that the supernatural is a possible reality.

[502mania]

wow, im late on this topic... looks like some good convo in here...

[Falconer02]

Oh yeah totally. I'm not leaving it out of the explanation. Strong Agnosticism states that the metaphysical is a possibility, but there is no proof, it's unverified, it's not defined etc. Nobody can really assert it as a stance because of this. That's what I'm trying to say.

Edit: There are several different types of agnostic beliefs and they all sort of mix into eachother in one way or another-- in some ways I'm just a plain agnosticist, others I'm a strong ag, ag atheist, etc. It ultimately depends what's on the plate and what needs to be described.

[shernajwine]

Ok falconer...I'm gonna remember you said that lol 

Love ya! 

[Falconer02]

Okay then. Just remember in no way can this be used with ID or an argument for the existence of a deity. I don't know what either of us can gain or lose from it.

[shernajwine]

You crack me up dude!

[Falconer02]

lawlolawlol why? I remember I was in a debate last year with something similar and very few people actually understood it. They kept mixing the metaphysical with the defined and not the unknown like I emphasized. The metaphysical does not ultimately pertain to a god figure; it's just a word to explain an abstract concept we can't put words to. A deity or deities could fit into this though. Just as it would another imaginary concept. Try not to bind it with reality like the others did. It gave me a headache.

[shernajwine]

From your perspective I understand what you are saying. And from an agnostic platform, you are right; the metaphysical doesn't necessarily mean a god or gods.

From my perspective the cause of the universe is supernatural and it's a very defined deity.  But you knew that 

Anyways, you crack me up cuz you're funny and I have a sense of humor lol. Either that or I'm just really tired and laughing for no reason 

[Falconer02]

Yeah I'm super tired here too. Blaughrhrghgg

[shernajwine]

Ok...back on topic lol

[queenofnines]

We know how it happened-- that was natural. But to define what happened before that is currently impossible. I never said whatever came before it was natural (unless I'm mistaken?). It could have been Xenu, Zues, or a Harrison Ford for all I know. I don't know nor do I put "faith" in any crazy defined idea since, from what I know, there is no evidence. Like the poster says-- faith leaves no room for other ideas. I leave room.

I completely concur with this.   

[queenofnines]

Understand I'm not talking about anything defined. I'm simply talking supernatural vs. natural causes for the origin of the universe.

But...let's be honest here.  Trying to get people to believe in "god in general" for the creation of the universe is just the gateway god to trying to get people to believe in Yahweh.  Y'all do it with "intelligent design", too!

Not fooling me...I am a gnostic (strong) atheist when it comes to Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, and whatever other personal gods man currently subscribes to.

[shernajwine]

Understand I'm not talking about anything defined. I'm simply talking supernatural vs. natural causes for the origin of the universe.

But...let's be honest here.  Trying to get people to believe in "god in general" for the creation of the universe is just the gateway god to trying to get people to believe in Yahweh.  Y'all do it with "intelligent design", too!

Not fooling me...I am a gnostic (strong) atheist when it comes to Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, and whatever other personal gods man currently subscribes to.

Well, in this particular discussion with falconer I wasn't trying to get him to believe in god in general. He has made statements that I took to believe he thought the supernatural was impossible. I needed to question him down so I could understand what it is exactly his thoughts were.

As you can see, I already responded to him in a way that was pointless, since I assumed a belief he didn't have.

You, on the other hand haven't answered the question. If you believe without evidence, a natural cause to the universe....you have faith?? 

[queenofnines]

If you believe without evidence, a natural cause to the universe....you have faith??  

I think you're trying to corner me with this question and make me look bad...  Yes, it is technically true that there is no evidence yet for what caused this universe; the difference between an atheist and a theist, however, is that theists absolutely assert a belief in a supernatural cause, whereas an atheist's stance is:

"I don't know.  It's highly likely that it was natural based on the fact that everything that's followed has been natural, and the supernatural cannot exist within the natural...but it *could* have been aliens, or some indifferent higher power that got things started - we just don't have much data to work with yet."

In any event, even if there *was* a god-being who got this universe started, he/she/it is most certainly NOT the Christian god.  He/she/it would also NOT be perfect (because the god would not have had to create anything, being perfectly complete).  He/she/it would also NOT be all-good (due to there being just the slightest degree of suffering).

So a god thing that created this universe and then forgot about us...that is the main thing atheists/agnostics can't 100% disprove.  But does such a notion of reality really sound reasonable?  No, no it doesn't.  This indifferent god hasn't specified any "rules" or requirements like the made-up personal gods have, so why should I care even IF such a being existed?

[shernajwine]

I think you're trying to corner me with this question and make me look bad.

I'm really not trying to make you look you bad. You continue to make comments about people having faith and how believing in something without evidence is bad, I'm just pointing out that (from what I am reading and understand) you also have belief in things without evidence.

And you're putting words in my mouth here. I'm talking about the concept of faith....I didn't say anything about believing in any god. However, any explanation that is open to a supernatural cause would have to be a supernatural being. Call that being god or not, the idea is that you HAVE said everything is physical. You HAVE said, there is no reason to believe the universe had anything but a natural cause. If you believe the universe had a natural cause *aliens* or whatever other explanation. You still believe it was caused naturally, without having evidence.

so why should I care even IF such a being existed

Isn't using such a word as (IF) more agnostic than atheist?

In any case, I'm not talking about god here. I'm talking about believing that nature is all there is despite lack of evidence for natural causes to the universe origins.