Um, Why Was "If you believe in God, You're a retard" Locked?

[jordandog]

I think you are just trying to corner us by asking the unanswerable questions ("how did evolution create info", etc.).  Are you REALLY interested in what science has to say?  No, I don't think so.  I think you are just trying to distract from the issue of how illogical Biblegod is by putting subject matter on the table that no one on here is qualified to answer.

This thread has become a perfect example of my 'circular argument' comment awhile back. There is really NO way either side is going to concretely, without any doubt whatsoever, present an infallible and/or  inarguable answer. It makes interesting reading and much can be learned in all of these discussions, but I don't see an "AhHa!" breakthrough moment as a possibility. queen is right, science DOES have huge gaps, science is always changing, and it will continue to change because life is always changing. The one area of science that will not change is the observations themselves. There is no person truly able to say Genesis actually took place. There is no person truly able to say they did, in fact, OBSERVE it so no one is "qualified to answer" as queen wrote above.

Just because someone can read and then post scientific theories on here (applies to BOTH sides of the debate ie atheist/agnostic and believers), does NOT imply an understanding of them. I have seen some glaring errors in how the dots have been connected when some get into science (NOT reffering to queen or sherna's posts when saying that), but there is no way I have any desire to jump in the fray and try to explain errors - it's just not that important/relative to what is brought out in points by both sides (you get close enough for here), would probably interest absolutely no one, and I have to spend too many hours at work using my brain on this alone. I DO have a solid background in science and a solid understanding of how the human body employs the complexity it was given - 9+ years of school and huge amounts of $$ better have taught me a whole lot. Trust me, if I didn't, I would quickly lose my license as a Nurse Practioner along with my Board Certification in 3 areas of medicine. I am NOT trying to sound like a smart a** here, but would you honestly want me diagnosing, treating, and writing prescriptions for you or your loved ones if I had NO idea how we work?

I have never made a statement on here as to when or why I started to question my own religion, beliefs, and if there really was a God responsible for creating life in the form of the amazingly complex machine we call the human body. Well, somewhere along the line while learning what I had to in order to do what I had always wanted, my religion and beliefs became glaringly and astoundingly inadequate. I could no longer suppress the unanswered questions I had posed in my entire time as a solid and devoted believer. I'm sure many would say, "Well, then you were NOT a 'real believer' all along." That is just NOT true. The more I learned, the more apparent it became to me that there was a reason no one could ever answer my constant questions about the bible - they did not have a clue other than to say, "That is how it is written and that is the word of god and you just need to trust in that." How many times have I seen that same answer come up on here?

I can't sit here and say what I have heard other atheists/agnostics voice "I lost a child, I got raped, I lost my spouse,.... and that is the exact moment that god and the Bible went out the window." Like I said, I had questions, (that really did NOT go over well in Sunday School ) from the time I was 6 years old, but they never were given any credence or they were glossed over. Maybe I was a 'Creation Story' cynic at birth and just didn't know it? Kidding there. I do know I reached a point where I could no longer say, "Yes, I believe without a doubt that there is a god and he created all I see, touch, hear, smell, taste, and feel." That does not make me any less worthy or moral or compassionate or anything else than all who do believe. I have mentioned that I have seen plenty of things happen with patients that cannot be explained and probably never will. It is at those times I actually say, either to myself or out loud, "That was a miracle." The difference now, as opposed to when I fully believed, is that I am once again amazed by the sheer will of the human body and mind to survive. Not by a supernatural act of a divine agent.

(Sorry for the 'novel'.)

[mrstina08]

It is always good to post positive things to say or question. Who cares what a person believes in. There is one faith, one God and one way!! All this other stuff I careless. To each is own.

[shernajwine]

There is really NO way either side is going to concretely, without any doubt whatsoever, present an infallible and/or  inarguable answer

You are 100% correct jordan! My issue and point in continuing this fruitless discussion is to point out that nonbelievers have to either say they have faith that everything is natural (since there is no evidence that that is the case) or they have to say they don't know. In which case it is outrageous to criticize and belittle someone else for the FAITH they have that it ISN'T all natural. Just like you said, there are things that are unexplainable in your field of study, doctors, scientists, they don't have an answer, but for the people who say "if science can't observe and test it, it isn't real." WHAT? That's ridiculous!

I get very frustrated when, over and over, Christians are denigrated, insulted, and made to feel inferior because of what they believe, when the issuers of the insults DON'T have all the answers. How juvenile is it to sit there and insist someone has the wrong answer, but when asked what the right answer is..."Well I don't know, I'm not qualified to answer that." Then you sure as hell are not qualified to insult someone else for the answer they believe to true!!

And I am addressing this post to you jordan, but I am not referring to you. You have been one that has shown respect and class when it comes to these arguments. I know you disagree with me and when I have made a glaring mistake, you have tactfully pointed it out. You have never insulted me, you have never insinuated that I'm "trying to look intelligent", and you have never come into a forum blasting every post a believer makes and laughing at them as though they are thoughtless dolts with no brains!

This attitude is highly intolerant and is hypocritical coming from people who "evangelize" the message of intolerant Christians!

[ro901]

Jordan, I think I understand you. The fact of the matter is that it is only when you are faced with the ultimate challenge, ie, diagnosis of cancer or other life-threatening illness/event, that you can truly face within you all these questions. Arguments become jokes when your life is at stake. I don't expect anyone to understand this. I just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

[queenofnines]

Why? Why does nature care if genes pass on? What is the point? We die and that's it...nature is a retard.

This statement is retarded (no offense, marie).  There is no "why", and there is no point.  Nature is just doing the only thing it can do; it doesn't have some "grand plan".

This is the hard truth that religion tries to distract from, folks: you're born and then you die.  You get 70-80 years (if you're lucky), and that's it.  Pass on your genes if you like so others can get 70-80 years, too.

Now you can either be depressed about this, or embrace the beauty of life and be grateful you ever lived at all.  Try to leave a mark for future generations and such and improve the human condition.

[shernajwine]

If god = perfect and perfect = complete, then god wouldn't have needed to create us in the first place.

If god = perfect and perfect = without flaws, then god COULDN'T have created anything imperfect or that would quickly turn imperfect.  This obviously isn't the case...

If god = all-good and all-good = ALL good, then suffering could not exist EVER for any reason.

If god = all-knowing and all-knowing = ALL knowing, then prayer is useless and free will is a myth.  Your life is already determined, and you are just a puppet playing out your destiny.

He didn't need to create us, He wanted to.

Why could He not create anything imperfect? To steal you're favorite phrase "He's God, can't He do ANYTHING?"

God is all good and therefore He can never be evil for any reason. We are not all good and therefore we can be evil.

And as for the all knowing thing, we went over this extensively and all you did was contradict yourself, so I'm doing with that argument.

The gruesomeness of childbirth definitely points to it being godless

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I know many many people who would disagree that it is gruesome. The creation of life completely embodies who God is. So this statement really makes no sense.

Your god sure likes to do things in the exact same way they'd be done without him...

This statement is illogical. God either exists or doesn't. If He doesn't exist, you can't say "Well if God existed this is how He would do it." If God does exist, then there is no wondering how it would happen without Him, nothing would exist without Him.  My head hurts just trying to comprehend how you think this makes any sense.

it's how heavily you rely on it and from only a few biased sources that's troublesome

How are going to assume what all sources I have used? I do ref one site in particular, but it just so happens to have a very large database of various information, unlike others that deal with only a few subjects. Also I have several books, some of which are authored by Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. Stop assuming things about me, and especially when I have already stated that my sources do not just come from websites and creationists. As a matter of fact you posted in my thread about the book I am reading now that is written by a non creationist! Or do you just ignore that information so you can continue to try and make me look stupid?

religious people often don't follow the rules.

 

the Christian god can be disproven by logic alone

Atheists will use logic to try and disprove God's existence, but in so doing they are assuming absolute laws of logic and borrowing from the Christian worldview.

   1. The Christian worldview maintains that the laws of logic are absolute because they come from God, who is Himself absolute.
   2. But the atheist worldview does not have an absolute God.
         1. So, we ask, "How can absolute, conceptual, abstract laws be derived from a universe of matter, energy, and motion?"
         2. In other words, "How can an atheist with a naturalistic presupposition account for the existence of logical absolutes when logical absolutes are conceptual by nature and not physical, energy, or motion?"

http://carm.org/christian-worldview-atheist-worldview-and-logic

Heh, what's with the stream of lulz?  Are you subconsciously copying Falconer's tactic because you feel threatened?

This is really getting ridiculous....your continuous assumptions about me. I frequently use "LOLOLOLOL" when I find something particularly amusing. And you don't have to take my word for it, I have used it several times in this forum And no, I didn't feel threatened. 

[queenofnines]

I can't sit here and say what I have heard other atheists/agnostics voice "I lost a child, I got raped, I lost my spouse,.... and that is the exact moment that god and the Bible went out the window."

Apparently such events happening cause some people to become Christians (out of desperation, I guess)...although in my opinion, such atrocities are pretty clear signs that god is not there.

The difference now, as opposed to when I fully believed, is that I am once again amazed by the sheer will of the human body and mind to survive. Not by a supernatural act of a divine agent.

I'm always amazed by how much we can abuse our bodies and still be alive.  Being extremely over- or underweight, drinking alcohol, eating only processed food, etc.  Obviously there are consequences eventually.  

[queenofnines]

My issue and point in continuing this fruitless discussion

It's fruitless is you think you'll be able to convince the atheists/agnostics on here.  We have a better chance of convincing you, although it's still not very likely.     People hate to change.   

"if science can't observe and test it, it isn't real." WHAT? That's ridiculous!

That's not a certainty.  Plenty of things exist that we have no concept of yet (just think back to when you were a kid and compare all of the technology now).  However, Christianity has had over 2,000 years to produce just ONE shred of legitimate evidence to its favor and has failed every time.  While its possible there are invisible leprechauns/unicorns/gods who control the world, there's no good reason to believe there are.  You can only play the mushy, amorphous, intangible god card for so long.

How juvenile is it to sit there and insist someone has the wrong answer, but when asked what the right answer is..."Well I don't know, I'm not qualified to answer that." Then you sure as hell are not qualified to insult someone else for the answer they believe to true!!

I thought the question was, "Does the Christian god exist?" NOT "What are the ultimate origins for the universe and how everything works?"  You act like they are one-in-the-same, when they are not.  We don't have to know 110% of all there is to know to be able to comprehend that the god of the Bible is just another myth.

As for you taking insult to the things skeptics say, you have to understand where the offense is coming from.  Are you aware of even a fraction of the horrible things done in the name of Islam? (beheadings, stoning, genital mutilation, death to rape victims)  They actually follow their holy book in that religion, and their god is based on the same god YOU worship.  Now do you just sit back and tolerate this?  Don't want to step on their precious faith, you say?  HELL NO!!  Religion causes horrible problems and may be the end to all of us if we can't grow out of these primitive, barbaric, childish, fantasy, unfounded ideas.  THAT'S why I speak up, because I CARE what my fellow man thinks about what governs the universe because it has the potential to directly affect us all for the worse.

[jordandog]

I need to go catch some zzzz's, there are some things I want to reply to/mention, so I will see you all later on - as usual.

[shernajwine]

Religion causes horrible problems and may be the end to all of us if we can't grow out of these primitive, barbaric, childish, fantasy, unfounded ideas

Getting rid of religion to get rid of it's abuse is like getting rid of money to get rid of greed. John Lennox

[jcribb16]

Religion causes horrible problems and may be the end to all of us if we can't grow out of these primitive, barbaric, childish, fantasy, unfounded ideas

Getting rid of religion to get rid of it's abuse is like getting rid of money to get rid of greed. John Lennox

To set the record straight, qon, our God is NOT based on the god of Islam. And because of what they do within their religion, with the intent on taking over the world with their religion, that's the ONLY reason I agree with your comment above - THEIR religion is put out deceptively to innocents that it is "God", but it is not OUR God, and they will pull anyone in that does not have their eyes opened.  Otherwise, Christians that are of God the Father, do NOT need to grow out of your opinionated ideas.  Oh, and by the way,  I don't consider this a "fruitless" conversation when people are standing up for what they believe in, have faith and trust in, as in God.  It seems as if it's fruitless only when it applies to Christians and what they are trying to say.  I agree with you, though, that we should not allow the likes of Islam taking over and causing all the problems you listed that they do in the name of "allah."  I do feel strongly against about what they are trying to do.  I read just this week that Islam is now the 3rd major religion here in America (2nd in France, etc.) They are steadily achieving their goals and I am concerned.

[tammyrwa]

That just goes to show you that she really had no "real" debate- when people find out they have no real debate, they cut out. As Christians, i'm glad we stood together against a person like that , who has a right to her own opinion, and results to name calling when they can't win an argument. Even if you are not a christian, it is not ok to insult someone just because they don't agree with you- I respect everyone's opininon, even if I don't agree with it, but don't stoop to name calling- you don't want someone to do it to you.

[Falconer02]

9+ years of school and huge amounts of $$ better have taught me a whole lot. Trust me, if I didn't, I would quickly lose my license as a Nurse Practioner along with my Board Certification in 3 areas of medicine.

Now I know! You have just opened the flood gates. In the future I will bombard you with random medical questions. Beware! Beware!

Yes, science has gaps.  And it wears that badge with honor.  RELIGION is the one that claims to have all the answers, even though when you compare the two, science is a lot more advanced and useful despite being somewhat incomplete.  You really want to settle on creation myths just because you're uncomfortable about the answers (or lack of answers) to life's tough questions?

This is my philosophical concern within this whole thing.

Jcribbs post

Could I play the "Christianities Long History" card here? And arguably that both are actually looking forward* to the end of the world? Also that political officials still use their god as a verbal weapon to try to justify actions? Catholic priests hiding and allowing for immoral acts on innocent children? Ted Haggards hypocrisy and then blaming it on the devil so it's not really his fault? The list goes on. One may be more extreme, but the problems Queen listed remain in Christianity as well.

That just goes to show you that she really had no "real" debate- when people find out they have no real debate, they cut out

Did I miss something? Who are you referring to?

[queenofnines]

Religion causes horrible problems and may be the end to all of us if we can't grow out of these primitive, barbaric, childish, fantasy, unfounded ideas

Getting rid of religion to get rid of it's abuse is like getting rid of money to get rid of greed. John Lennox

Lessening religion's impact won't cure the world of all its ills, but it will certainly improve things.  What I meant is that when you have people living in a fantasy world and couple that with destructive nuclear technology, we could all be wiped out.  Will the fairy tales be worth it then?

[queenofnines]

To set the record straight, qon, our God is NOT based on the god of Islam.

Yes he is.  All three of the "desert dogmas" (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are Abrahamic religions.  Learn something new everyday, eh?

Want to see some of the scary similarities between the Qur'an and the Bible?  http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html#creation (start reading at Creation and go through the 10 Commandments, basic concepts, similar practices, and moral codes)

Tell me what you think of the side-by-side comparisons and then try to tell me again that one of you worships the right god and the other the wrong god.