dosen't the story of jesus sound like hercules??

[jordandog]

queenofnines:  If you do not believe in God, and the Scriptures, then how can you quote (above post) from it just to try and prove points?

Maybe you meant this in some way I am not getting, but this makes NO sense to me.
(Obviously not on the same 'level' as god vs no god, but here is why I say that)

a) I state that I believe solar power to be the best type and the future of renewable resources. I back up my idea by citing experiments, proof of output, etc., from the person or company who is on the leading edge of it, with the most proof behind them to back it up.
b) queenofnines states that no, the best type of renewable resource is wind powered and that is where the future lies. She also cites experimental data, proof of output, etc., from the person/company she finds to be on the leading edge and with proof to back her statement up.

Now, I don't know how you would approach it, but I would take her proof and material on wind powered and use it to refute what she is saying and give more power to my side of the debate. I am fairly sure she would in turn do the same, but by using MY sources in order to show the fallacy in my thinking.
In any debate/discussion each side will use the other's view, source material, anything they have, to sway the 'argument' to their side. There have been times when references to and citings of atheist/agnostic material was put to use by believers/christians on here as a counter point to an atheist post. That's why your post confused me. I don't see why references to the bible and the scriptures is odd to use.

[queenofnines]

Thanks jordandog!

queenofnines:  If you do not believe in God, and the Scriptures, then how can you quote (above post) from it just to try and prove points?

Because the proof is in the pudding.  The Bible is a testament against the Christian god due to the countless errors, contradictions, horrific descriptions, historical and scientific inaccuracies, fairytale fables, etc.


"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov

[502mania]

you have to go somewhere to come back, marie

[shernajwine]

Funny how you glossed over the fact that you, yet again, misinterpreted scripture. You accused Jesus of lying, but turns out he wasn't. Nice try though.

<<Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 16:28

The language is clear.  Jesus told his disciples that some of them would not die before he returned, but that's obviously not how things went down, now is it?

He was speaking of his transfiguration, not his second coming.

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 10:22-23

The cities of Israel were not so numerous that it would have taken a fleeing man 2000 years to go over or through them.  No man could live that long.  Christ said before a fleeing man could go through all the cities, he would come.  Again, Christ was speaking of his return in that generation.

He was speaking of rejoining the disciples after their mission, not his second coming.

What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short.  From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them.  For this world in its present form is passing away.
(1 Corinthians 7:29-31 - NIV)

Paul tells the Corinthians that time is short and that the world in its present form is passing away.  His words have a strong sense of urgency, rather than being a mere suggestion.  Paul believes the world is presently passing away.  He is not speaking of some event which could take place 2000 years in the future.

There is an urgency. Our time for Christian service is short. The world since it's creation is passing away. The minute you are born, you are dying. It is a message to believers to always live for God is if it were your last breath. Always make it count.

I hope if I am ever about to be run over by a car, I won't have to ask bystanders to save me. I hope that my husband loves me enough that if my life were in danger I won't have to ask him to save me, that he will save me without even thinking of his own life because he loves me that much.

Let me get this straight -- you're comparing your husband to Jesus?  That isn't a proper analogy because you can prove your husband exists; you can prove your husband isn't invisible; you can prove your husband loves you without it being all in your head.

Also, your hubby's sacrifice would be PERMANENT whereas Jesus's wasn't.

This has nothing to do with proving Jesus' existence. You said you didn't ask him to die for you. I compared that to the absurdity of some one who loves me standing by and waiting to be asked to save my life.

And I guess unless my husband died in the act of saving me then no amount of pain he endured in such an act would matter? Later when retelling the story I guess I should make sure and let everyone know....I didn't ask him to save me, sure he suffered greatly and endured pain beyond imagination........but he lived, so who cares.

[jcribb16]

Funny how you glossed over the fact that you, yet again, misinterpreted scripture. You accused Jesus of lying, but turns out he wasn't. Nice try though.

<<Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 16:28

They did didn't they? He came back in 3 days. Or some people believe you stay in your grave until the return of Christ which you don't taste death, I already know what you will say but I don't feel like going into more detail.

The language is clear.  Jesus told his disciples that some of them would not die before he returned, but that's obviously not how things went down, now is it?

Came back in 3 days

Very good, Marie!!!!!

[jcribb16]

you have to go somewhere to come back, marie

Resurrected....he died on the cross! He went to Heaven. He came back in 3 days.

Once again, great work, Marie!  Great proof!

[jcribb16]

Funny how you glossed over the fact that you, yet again, misinterpreted scripture. You accused Jesus of lying, but turns out he wasn't. Nice try though.

<<Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 16:28

The language is clear.  Jesus told his disciples that some of them would not die before he returned, but that's obviously not how things went down, now is it?

He was speaking of his transfiguration, not his second coming.

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 10:22-23

The cities of Israel were not so numerous that it would have taken a fleeing man 2000 years to go over or through them.  No man could live that long.  Christ said before a fleeing man could go through all the cities, he would come.  Again, Christ was speaking of his return in that generation.

He was speaking of rejoining the disciples after their mission, not his second coming.

What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short.  From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them.  For this world in its present form is passing away.
(1 Corinthians 7:29-31 - NIV)

Paul tells the Corinthians that time is short and that the world in its present form is passing away.  His words have a strong sense of urgency, rather than being a mere suggestion.  Paul believes the world is presently passing away.  He is not speaking of some event which could take place 2000 years in the future.

There is an urgency. Our time for Christian service is short. The world since it's creation is passing away. The minute you are born, you are dying. It is a message to believers to always live for God is if it were your last breath. Always make it count.

 
Sherna, I couldn't have phrased it better myself.  
I was going to address this, but you did it best.

[jcribb16]

Thanks jordandog!

queenofnines:  If you do not believe in God, and the Scriptures, then how can you quote (above post) from it just to try and prove points?

Because the proof is in the pudding.  The Bible is a testament against the Christian god due to the countless errors, contradictions, horrific descriptions, historical and scientific inaccuracies, fairytale fables, etc.


"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov

God's Word (Bible) is perfect.  It is not as you say it is.  There is no "proof in the pudding."  Also, that quote of Asimov's is not true and defies the Lord God openly.

[shernajwine]

Thanks jordandog!

queenofnines:  If you do not believe in God, and the Scriptures, then how can you quote (above post) from it just to try and prove points?

Because the proof is in the pudding.  The Bible is a testament against the Christian god due to the countless errors, contradictions, horrific descriptions, historical and scientific inaccuracies, fairytale fables, etc.


"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov

God's Word (Bible) is perfect.  It is not as you say it is.  There is no "proof in the pudding."  Also, that quote of Asimov's is not true and defies the Lord God openly.

Improperly read is more like it.

[queenofnines]

He came back in 3 days.

Sorry, that's not what Jesus meant.

Or some people believe you stay in your grave until the return of Christ which you don't taste death

Um, if you're in a grave you're dead!!  Unless we have a whole lotta buried alive Christians out there...scary!

He was speaking of his transfiguration, not his second coming.

<<If you've been mistakenly taught that the verses above refer to Christ's Transfiguration, read Revelation 20:12 which coincides with Matthew 16:27 in describing a Judgment Day scenario:
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:12

Christ was, again, clearly referring to his second coming before that present generation passed.

Again, Jesus tells his disciples:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the cloudsof heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:30-34

Again, Christ describes certain events and warns those who are listening to him that "This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled". He is speaking about their PRESENT generation.

Although the above scriptures clearly convey that Christ was talking about his present generation, there are many other references in the New Testament indicating that the writers of the Gospels and Epistles as well as the followers of Christ firmly believed that Jesus was speaking of their present generation and not some future time hundreds or thousands of years down the road.>>

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/comingagain.html

[queenofnines]

This has nothing to do with proving Jesus' existence. You said you didn't ask him to die for you. I compared that to the absurdity of some one who loves me standing by and waiting to be asked to save my life.

And I guess unless my husband died in the act of saving me then no amount of pain he endured in such an act would matter?

I already explained you are using an improper analogy!!  I didn't say you were trying to prove Jesus, I said you are using a fallacious comparison!

Of course it would be great if you want to live and all for your hubby to step in and try to save you (no dying on his part necessary).  The BIG DIFFERENCE between that situation and Jesus's is that you can witness it before your very eyes; you don't have to take some superstitious goat herder's word for it from 2,000 years ago that your husband would do this for you.  

Also, your hubby wouldn't be jumping in to save you because he feared you would burn forever for being inherently "bad" (when you're NOT)...he's jumping in to save you because life is precious and he knows if he doesn't do something, he'll never see you again.  Again I go back to how funny I find it that Xtians are some of the most desperate to live...if you're so convinced you're going to get heaven when you die, why try to artificially prolong this life if you get in a car accident or cancer?  IF GOD DOESN'T WANT YOU TO DIE, YOU WON'T...right?

And here come the excuses of: "I like life" (really? I heard it's pretty sucky compared to Divine Disneyland), "God isn't done with me yet" (well what are you worried about, then? god won't let you die), or "Well it's just foolish to refuse medical care" (oh really? so you're god isn't as all-powerful as you claim, then?).

In reality, you don't want to risk dying too early if this is indeed the only life you get.  

[queenofnines]

God's Word (Bible) is perfect.  It is not as you say it is.

No offense, but people who say this either haven't read the whole Bible, or are kidding themselves.

Care to take a crack at some of the inconsistencies if you think it's "perfect", then?  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

Atrocities: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

Vulgarities: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/vulgar.html

Also, that quote of Asimov's is not true and defies the Lord God openly.

It's true for me and many other atheists I know of!  It was a big part of the puzzle in my waking up from religion.  You know, when I actually started to sit down and read it straight through like a good Christian should.  

[queenofnines]

I was always told to pray to God before I read the bible for wisdom and understanding to be able to properly read the bible..Asking for the holy spirit to interpet the passages...maybe you could try that before you read the bible. 

So god's so incompetent that he couldn't manage to write a book that's easily understandable by all?

[jcribb16]

I was always told to pray to God before I read the bible for wisdom and understanding to be able to properly read the bible..Asking for the holy spirit to interpet the passages...maybe you could try that before you read the bible. 

So god's so incompetent that he couldn't manage to write a book that's easily understandable by all?

He never promised it would be easy to understand.

[jcribb16]

God's Word (Bible) is perfect.  It is not as you say it is.

No offense, but people who say this either haven't read the whole Bible, or are kidding themselves.

Care to take a crack at some of the inconsistencies if you think it's "perfect", then?  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

Atrocities: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html


Vulgarities: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/vulgar.html

Also, that quote of Asimov's is not true and defies the Lord God openly.

It's true for me and many other atheists I know of!  It was a big part of the puzzle in my waking up from religion.  You know, when I actually started to sit down and read it straight through like a good Christian should.  

I will get back to you on this (after work later today or tomo., thanks)