Religion and Homosexuality

[SurveyMack10]

Here's my point- It has NOT been proven that they are born that way. You can't prove it so you can't convince me (as you are trying to ). In your words, if you're the one trying to do the convincing YOU have the burden of proof. I am NOT trying to convince you, just telling you why I think it's wrong. In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.

So...basically...you just totally avoided answering my question of WHY it's a choice.  I stumped you, perhaps?  Can't think of an explanation other than it's in a book that says it's bad?  Well that STILL doesn't describe how it's a "choice".

We've already given you *our* "burden of proof" by explaining how we all know you can't help who you're attracted to and if you, as a straight person, can't choose to wake up one day and suddenly start liking the same sex, what makes you think ANYONE can?

And I think the non-religious side DOES convince you, you just don't want to admit it...it convinces you if you feel for your fellow human being and grasp that there is no rational argument against it.  How do I know this?  Because I was once a Christian having my morals spoon-fed to me as well.

Again, you have all the right to not approve of gays.  But your beliefs do NOT have the right to restrict basic freedoms from people who are simply different than you.

It's been explained, and come full circle more than once in this thread.  This has been your MO.  You ask the same question, but you word it differently, over and over again.  You didn't "stump" anybody.  Go back and read over the thread.  Why should Mackenzie say the same thing over and over, the same answer.  Or anybody else for that matter?  Why it's a choice has been answered more than once in this thread, in every way it can be answered.  You asking for more explanation again is redundant.

We are not going to dispute the Bible and it's truths just because you want a loophole.  No, I can pretty much tell you for Mackenzie or any other Christian that the non-religious side did not convince us.  To be honest, if we saw your side of it, we would be the first to admit it.  Your saying things like "we gave you our burden of proof". Well.......so have we.  You just don't like the answer we gave, so you keep coming at it, with a slightly different tact, but the same questions over and over again.

I don't see anywhere where Mackenzie said anything about Gay rights.  She said she disagreed with the lifestyle. The place to make your voice heard about gay rights or anything in this country, is at the polling booth.  We live in a Democracy, and that's where we can actually make a difference one way or the other.  

Perfect!

[jcribb16]

Very well put, Mackenzie!!!  A big, resounding "A-m-e-n!"

[SurveyMack10]

im not much of a God person. But i believe the bible is hypocritical. It say one thing then states another. i cant give any examples because i no longer own a bible. But God wouldnt have made homosexuals if it was an abomination. If God is as perfect as his followers believe him to be then it doesnt matter the sexuality. They have a chance to get to heaven as the rest of them the way they are. Believe in whatever you choose, just dont dis the other persons beliefs. im sure the religions God wouldnt want that.
 

True, and every sin can be forgiven. That won't, however, change our opinion that it's wrong. I think it's wrong to lie, doesn't mean I've never done it, but my God is a forgiving God.

[SurveyMack10]

Quote from queenofnines:
Granted, you might not really have much of a choice being a Christian if you were indoctrinated as a child/have spent years investing in the false enterprise.  If you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.

What you posted is a perfect example of not accepting what we believe as Christians, with you looking down superiorly on us telling all who read how we are wrong in what we do.  I may not want (choose) to be atheist, but I don't tell you that you don't think critically enough to make the "ONLY" choice that you would make.  I'm not calling your atheist way a "false enterprise."  Let the readers make up their own minds and do research with out you thumbing your nose down on the Christian choice.

She makes assumptions and states them as facts. Stating assertively that Christians only remain Christians because they don't think critically, is setting the parameter of the box by which an intellectually honest person is allowed to think within. This is what she learned when she was indoctrinated into atheist materialist thinking.

You won't be able to talk sense into her, I and probably many others have tried 

You hit the nail on the head.

[queenofnines]

It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.

Who puts the people who make the laws into power?  YOU do.

Actually, that statement sounds absolutely ridiculous and cuckoo in itself...

Oh really?  Is that not what your religion says??  Have you not seen your fellow believer proclaim that the devil tempts people and he and his demons rule this world?  Because I sure have.

Yes it is ridiculous, but it IS what Christians believe on the whole.  Why are you denying it??

[jcribb16]

Quote from: jcribb16 on Today at 12:41:47 pm
It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.

Quote from: queenofnines:
Who puts the people who make the laws into power?  YOU do.

Who else put the people in who makes laws?   YOU do, TOO.
Who wants to put people in to make laws to take God out of everything?  YOU DO!

[jcribb16]

Quote from jcribb:
Actually, that statement sounds absolutely ridiculous and cuckoo in itself...

Quote from queenofnines:
Oh really?  Is that not what your religion says??  Have you not seen your fellow believer proclaim that the devil tempts people and he and his demons rule this world?  Because I sure have.

Yes it is ridiculous, but it IS what Christians believe on the whole.  Why are you denying it??

I am most certainly NOT denying it.  But, as a Christian, we CHOOSE to let temptation overtake us or we CHOOSE to let God handle it for us.  YOU are only focusing on the devil and what his cuckoo ideals are - why is that? 

 

[shernajwine]

Thanks, Sherna.  I guess it provokes me into defending against those kinds of remarks because there are newbies that come in and others who come in and read these posts. Maybe there's no need to defend because when I actually stop and think about it, those readers should be able to spot hyprocritical posts from debating posts; in other words, they can tell when someone else makes our choices for us and doesn't allow for discussion. Your picture describes it perfectly.

If you want to defend against those remarks, I am here to defend your defense lol! Just don't expect too much change from people who hold so tightly to their unbelief. Only the Holy Spirit can penetrate that kind of mindset.

[queenofnines]

1.  You CHOSE to be a Christian; CHOSE to do the research; CHOSE to get out of said Christianity; and you definitely CHOSE to go the atheist route -     no denying that.
2.  Scientifically speaking, the sky isn't really blue, it's black (we see it as blue because our atmosphere interacts with the sunlight passing through it-
     and is known as "Rayleigh scattering."  

Obviously you all don't understand the difference between a choice and a free choice.  Could I have gone on lying to myself, pretending to be a Christian?  Technically yes.  So in that sense, my deconversion was a "choice".  But you are missing a big piece of reality if you think all choices are equal.

If you're held up at a bank, sure, you have the "choice" to not comply.  But it's not a choice at all if your life is valuable to you.  Choice involves VIABLE options.

Could a homosexual "choose" to repress his natural attractions?  Technically yes.  But the consequences could be devastating, as this "forced choice" goes against the very core of a person's internal makeup.

As for the sky thing, that is really petty, jcribb.  I'm surprised you'd post something like that just to be arrogant.  You knew what I meant by what I posted.

[SurveyMack10]

It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.

Who puts the people who make the laws into power?  YOU do.

Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.

[jcribb16]

Thanks, Sherna.  I guess it provokes me into defending against those kinds of remarks because there are newbies that come in and others who come in and read these posts. Maybe there's no need to defend because when I actually stop and think about it, those readers should be able to spot hyprocritical posts from debating posts; in other words, they can tell when someone else makes our choices for us and doesn't allow for discussion. Your picture describes it perfectly.

If you want to defend against those remarks, I am here to defend your defense lol! Just don't expect too much change from people who hold so tightly to their unbelief. Only the Holy Spirit can penetrate that kind of mindset.

Thanks!  I definitely understand and agree with that.  I also want them to know that I (we) are not going to change or deviate from God to make their day, either.  Normally, I am quiet and reserved.  But when something presses my buttons (God, family, friends, etc.) there's something in me that says, "Enough nonsense, already.  Let's get something straight, here..."  Thanks for defending my defense!  lol  

[shernajwine]

It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.

Who puts the people who make the laws into power?  YOU do.

Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.

 

[Annella]

1.  You CHOSE to be a Christian; CHOSE to do the research; CHOSE to get out of said Christianity; and you definitely CHOSE to go the atheist route -     no denying that.
2.  Scientifically speaking, the sky isn't really blue, it's black (we see it as blue because our atmosphere interacts with the sunlight passing through it-
     and is known as "Rayleigh scattering."  

Obviously you all don't understand the difference between a choice and a free choice.  Could I have gone on lying to myself, pretending to be a Christian?  Technically yes.  So in that sense, my deconversion was a "choice".  But you are missing a big piece of reality if you think all choices are equal.

If you're held up at a bank, sure, you have the "choice" to not comply.  But it's not a choice at all if your life is valuable to you.  Choice involves VIABLE options.

Could a homosexual "choose" to repress his natural attractions?  Technically yes.  But the consequences could be devastating, as this "forced choice" goes against the very core of a person's internal makeup.

As for the sky thing, that is really petty, jcribb.  I'm surprised you'd post something like that just to be arrogant.  You knew what I meant by what I posted.

For one thing Jcribb is about the most un-arrogant person on this forum.

What I believe in the Bible of the enemy that is the prince of this world, is true.  Here it is again.....I BELIEVE THE BIBLE....YOU DON"T.  I won't argue the Word with you.  It is what it is!  Every time you don't like how a conversation is going (not in your favor), you pick something out and "fling" it out as ridiculous, etc.  Or dissect the heck out of it.  You strain at words, and they just come back and show how shallow your debating skills actually are.

[queenofnines]

No, you do NOT get to decide how or why I feel like I do- I do NOT have my morals spoon fed to me-

You may not realize it, but it's quite possible.  I know of lots of ex-Christians who secretly thought god's rules were faulty while putting on an air of agreeing with them.

and contrary to what you think I DO have a brain.

I never said you didn't...?

Am I going to jump in her pants? Absolutely not.
Why? I choose not to.

So you're saying the ONLY thing that's stopping you from pursuing lesbian relationships is mere choice?  It has nothing to do with the fact that, I don't know...you're not sexually or emotionally attracted to them like you are with men?

You don't believe in free will though right? Or something like that, so I understand why you don't think it's a choice.

I believe in it in a limited sense.  I think genetics, environment, past experiences, and free choice all play a role in our daily lives.  Some things you can choose, some things you can't; it's all dependent on what the issue is and what variables are involved.

You are just as closeminded as an atheist as you accuse us "closeminded Christians" of being- you just wont open you eyes and see it.

How am I close-minded when I've been down your road and was a sincere Christian for 5 years?  Have you been a sincere atheist/agnostic ever?  Probably not.

In any event, I appreciate the response, Mack!  

[jcribb16]

1.  You CHOSE to be a Christian; CHOSE to do the research; CHOSE to get out of said Christianity; and you definitely CHOSE to go the atheist route -     no denying that.
2.  Scientifically speaking, the sky isn't really blue, it's black (we see it as blue because our atmosphere interacts with the sunlight passing through it-
     and is known as "Rayleigh scattering."  

Obviously you all don't understand the difference between a choice and a free choice.  Could I have gone on lying to myself, pretending to be a Christian?  Technically yes.  So in that sense, my deconversion was a "choice".  But you are missing a big piece of reality if you think all choices are equal.

If you're held up at a bank, sure, you have the "choice" to not comply.  But it's not a choice at all if your life is valuable to you.  Choice involves VIABLE options.

Could a homosexual "choose" to repress his natural attractions?  Technically yes.  But the consequences could be devastating, as this "forced choice" goes against the very core of a person's internal makeup.

As for the sky thing, that is really petty, jcribb.  I'm surprised you'd post something like that just to be arrogant.  You knew what I meant by what I posted.

The homosexual's choice to not repress his attraction can be just as devastating - aids, just for one. (consequences)

I was NOT being petty about the sky thinking.  Here's your quote: "To press on being a Christian knowing what I knew about the religion delusion would be like denying that the sky is blue."

You call it a "religion delusion" just as you are deluded into thinking the sky is really blue (I agree you know it looks blue) - which is scientifically speaking, since you rely on science for so much of your proof.