Religion and Homosexuality

[amyrouse]

On a lighter note:  I LOVE Jewish worship music.  It's so hauntingly beautiful.

I know, right?  I absolutely love Mi Chamocha and Hashkiveinu...I actually sing Hashkiveinu to my daughter as a lullaby.

[Annella]

On a lighter note:  I LOVE Jewish worship music.  It's so hauntingly beautiful.

I know, right?  I absolutely love Mi Chamocha and Hashkiveinu...I actually sing Hashkiveinu to my daughter as a lullaby.

I have many DVD's of Jewish worship music.....some songs make me cry, and I don't even know what they are singing in Hebrew....lol

[queenofnines]

Listen, I think it is wrong. I think it goes against God and I think God who created mankind knows what is right and wrong.

What is the true definition of "wrong" from a reasonable perspective?  Something that causes nothing but undue harm to an individual or group.  Being gay does not cause harm amongst consenting, safety-minded adults.  Therefore, it is not wrong.

To say that two people can't be in a relationship and love each other -- THAT is wrong, because that causes harm.

[queenofnines]

Being gay is not genetic.  It's a lifestyle choice.  I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.

Let's talk about hetereos for a second.  Science has demonstrated that you actually don't have as much control over picking a partner than you think.  You will automatically be less attracted to people who share DNA that is too similar to yours.  This is something you can't help!  Also, certain smells make men more attractive.  If that isn't primal and animalistic, I don't know what is. 

As for being gay, no one has the right to speak on their behalf of whether it's a "choice" or not unless they themselves are gay.  Common sense says you mostly can't help who you are attracted to, though.  Surely as a hetero you have experience with that?!

Isn't it funny how everything actually comes down to either a belief in God's Word or not?

Uh, this is rather silly to say.  When there are really only two directions an issue could take, why do you expect 3 or 4 positions when there are only 2?  Not everything only has 2 positions, mind you.

Even if you don't believe the Bible, doesn't the gay lifestyle go against the natural order of things?

It is found across nature, so no.  Homosexuality is a good thing for overpopulation.

They, and everyone that came out of that lifestyle told me they "chose' it.  Some even confess of "inhabiting" spirits.

No kidding they're going to say this.  Because they're brainwashed.  I'd expect nothing less.

[queenofnines]

I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle.  California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays.  Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.  

Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it.  But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there.  Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity. 

You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.

[queenofnines]

Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?

Come on now, that's not going to happen.  Like Amy said, the almost guaranteed danger is that we're going to overpopulate ourselves to death.  So it's a really silly argument.

I personally would not want to be with a talkative, emotional, weak-bodied woman...I need a MAN!  lol  No offense to my fellow woman...

[Annella]

I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle.  California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays.  Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.  

Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it.  But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there.  Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity.  

You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.

The word prejudice is your word not mine.  It has nothing to do with prejudice at all.  It has to do with a lifestyle that goes against the moral teachings of the Bible, and the eroding away of the moral fiber of a Nation as a whole. Since you have made it clear you don't believe the Bible, this point is lost on you.  

There's that word hate again, when that word came from your camp....not me.  I do not hate gays, different races, murderers, etc.  What I'm against is the act of sin.  Also, a movement that is shoving their lifestyle down my throat in an effort to "make" everyone accept it as normal, when I know it is not, according to scriptures.  

Sorry to burst your bubble, but lots of people voted No on 8.  Me for one, and I'm not Mormon.  There were literally thousands upon thousands of people, and there are not that many Mormons in the State of California who voted, so many others had to have voted "No" also.  What your missing here is that it's just not Christians that do not want this.  There are non-believers that don't want it either.  

So you think funding won the vote?  Please.........  The prejudice/race/hate card has been used to death...get something else.  Ashamed?  Never in the Gospel and it's teachings.

Why is it necessary for you to spout unsavory titles towards Christians, when not one Christian on here has done that to you or anyone on this forum?

[jcribb16]

I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle.  California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays.  Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.  

Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it.  But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there.  Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity. 

You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.

Wow, you dare to BOLD your words to people who do not approve of gays (but they are people that other people like as a person) and yet you BOLD your opinions to Christians for what we believe.  That is really backward and prideful of you. 

[shonte1990]

This is a really good topic!!! This is why I don't go to church.

[jordandog]

From Annella: Reply #189 on: September 24, 2010, 08:07:03 pm

Mackenzie, your right. Being gay is not genetic. It's a lifestyle choice. I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.

Being gay is a chosen sin (Biblically), that's why we as Christians are against it. Isn't it funny how everything actually comes down to either a belief in God's Word or not? Even if you don't believe the Bible, doesn't the gay lifestyle go against the natural order of things? Things that we never would have accepted just 20 years ago are being shoved down our throat with "you will accept this or else"! I preach against homosexuality, because of what I read in the pages of God's Word. I can't say it's okay, when the Word of God says the opposite. I've been told I could be arrested for preaching this and put in prison......so be it! No way will I call evil good and good evil.......never!

We have many "saved" former gays in our assembly. Some have AIDS. A very talented Music Director comes to mind as I write this. God has actually healed some from AIDS, as they turned around their life, and dedicated it to God. Two of my dearest friends are former gays. They, and everyone that came out of that lifestyle told me they "chose' it. Some even confess of "inhabiting" spirits.

I have not gone back to insert ever single thing you replied back to me with. There are references to things in here that are NOT in the above quote, but you did say them to me. This thread has grown leaps and bounds and I am not going to get every single thing quoted here. If you want to say again that I am "twisting your words" because of that, so be it. Your words haven't gone anywhere and I don't twist them to begin with - I reply as to how I see and interpret what you say. So, here we go....

You stated I had seen your views/statements, as on here before this and the in depth dialogue with Amy about it. I went back and looked and found some posts from a thread on “Babies” in August. I made ONE post about birth control NOT being covered by insurance and then I STOPPED posting in it and never read the rest so I DID NOT see what you wrote then. As I said, IF I had seen it then, I would have addressed it then. You are making presumptions as to what I have and haven’t seen.

You believe and said you ‘know’ I am upset because you called it a sin. Firstly, you do NOT know what I am thinking, so do not presume [again] that you do. You may call it a sin or whatever you choose. I never said you were talking about MY work with AIDS/cancer patients. That is NOT what upsets me about this post. I would expect nothing less from a hardline christian like you than for you to say being gay is a sin/sinful because it goes against God’s Word.

You believe that people are not ‘born gay’. Fine - I won’t waste any time educating you on the infinite number of genetic anomalies that occur and are the cause of gender confusion, mutation, etc. You state you have many saved former gays in your assembly. To that I say NO, you do not. What you might have are some who at one time decided to experiment with it, were doing drugs or other lifestyle choices that put them in a different frame of mind or situation and they found themselves doing something they normally would not have. It could be a lot of other influencers or events. The bottom line is this: anyone who is actually gay, is NOT, under any circumstances going to become heterosexual. There IS NO SUCH THING as a used to be gay. So, they either WERE NOT gay or because of the misery put upon them by society they no longer could cope with saying they were gay, so they are now pretending they are not. A truly gay person, female or male, does not change that anymore than YOU waking up tomorrow and deciding YOU are now a lesbian.

You mentioned, “God has actually healed some from AIDS”. There is no healing/cure for AIDS! There are states of remission that may last for certain periods of time. This is especially true now with some of the newer anti-recombinant /anti-retroviral drugs, receptor antagonists, and regimens out there - thankfully more are being isolated and developed every day. Medically, there is NO comparison to being diagnosed as HIV+ today to what that meant even just 10 years ago. Ten years in medicine is a relatively short time and especially when talking about something that is now a worldwide pandemic - sooo much has changed. There is a HUGE difference between a positive carrier of HIV (human immunodeficiency virus) and actually having AIDS. So, these ‘healed’ people? They may have been positive for HIV, are taking the recommended course of treatment, and are still NOT to the point of full blown AIDS. It can now take some recently or newly diagnosed HIV infected many years to go into a diagnosis of AIDS and if they are able to get one of the newer treatments as soon as they are diagnosed, it raises their life expectancy to an average of around 30 years - that is dependent on them being extremely healthy, having an extremely strong immune system which is able to fight the virus much longer, and also having the financial resources available to even get treatment. Without medical treatment, even the healthiest individual will go into a diagnosis of AIDS in 10-15 years and death will occur relatively soon due to the body shutting down all organs necessary to our life systems one by one. All these statistics are based upon an absolutely ideal situation in all aspects of the person’s life and that rarely is the case. Did you see ‘life expectancy’ in there? There is NO cure.

If I were one of these gays in your church who was healed, I would owe it to every single person in my life to tell them about it! I can’t and won’t propose to get you to believe that prayer and your god cannot remove AIDS from anyone, but I know, in every bone in my body, that what you have stated as ‘proof’ is a pile of hogwash. Trust me, I deal with religious fervor from families and friends on a daily basis. If I know there is a strong religious ideology, you may find this hard to believe, I adamantly encourage them to pray and/or do whatever is within what they view as their’s and their god’s power to help. My lack of a faith in a god does not enter into it. I will say it is not what you all see on TV or in movies. It takes every ounce of strength I have to watch what my patients go through and especially the kids. I will also say that when religion gets in the way of our treating, there IS no leeway. On more than one occasion (after all the years as an N.P. it is probably thousands by now) we have all used the “WE will save their *bleep*, then YOU can save their soul!”

You say you speak out against homosexuality and are willing to go to prison if necessary. What then makes YOU any different than the Fred Phelps of this country and this world? He and others like him say they are doing it in the name of god and the bible and, unless I am mistaken, so do you? You may say you are not as fanatical as he/others are, but the bottom line is still the same - homosexual people are wrong in their lifestyle and are sinners. I would venture a guess that the large numbers of gays who overdose, infect others out of anger, become absolute sociopaths, and/or commit suicide because of all of your [collective] views have done the ultimate double whammy, eh? As I said, what you have written does appall me, but I am entitled to how I feel, just as you are.

[Falconer02]

Jordandog FTW![/i] That post there's a fine peice o' work.

You can't prove it, therefore you can't convince me. When something cannot be proven we often base our perception of it on our moral beliefs, I happen to believe it is morally wrong and you do not. It happens. I can sit here and say BEING GAY IS A CHOICE over and over and it's not going to make you believe it, just as you can sit here and say THEY'RE BORN THAT WAY and I will not believe it. Neither of us can prove it in any way, so it's based on opinion and our belief system.

You don't really know any gay people, do you? This has nothing to do with moral beliefs. It's completely natural. That's all there is to it. You refer to it as a choice like choosing between coke or pepsi. Realistically it's like choosing to go eat or not. Eventually you're going to have to acknowledge the desire for it. Being gay and suppressing it due to societies religious taboo is an act of evil on religions part in itself. Suppressing nature and peoples unharmful tendencies with some ancient myths and an ever-changing moral cloud is completely rude and ignorant of their situation.

All and all, anyone can say it's odd and gross and all that, but when you protest it and make sure they are incapable of having the same rights as you do, that is the problem. They are as human as you are.

So now we're like the animals?  Or should say well, the animals are doing it, it must be okay for us to also?

*sigh* Yes. We are animals. Always have been.

There were literally thousands upon thousands of people, and there are not that many Mormons in the State of California who voted, so many others had to have voted "No" also.  What your missing here is that it's just not Christians that do not want this.  There are non-believers that don't want it either.  

I'm sure age had something to do with it too- not just religious beliefs.

http://andrewnorton.info/2010/07/26/sexual-attitudes-over-time-2-same-sex-relations/

[velvet53]

Religion is a subject of its own. We should not put these two together. Each has to answer for their own actions.

[jcribb16]

Religion is a subject of its own. We should not put these two together. Each has to answer for their own actions.

Sounds true, but since it something that is discouraged in the Bible, that's why they are being bridged together here.  It is definitely a very sensitive topic to tread carefully with.  I don't approve of it, but I have several gay friends and they are just as nice as they can be - I really like them as friends, and as friends, many of them "...sticketh closer than a brother."

[jordandog]

Thank you, Falconer. And you are spot on with this also:

You don't really know any gay people, do you? This has nothing to do with moral beliefs. It's completely natural. That's all there is to it. You refer to it as a choice like choosing between coke or pepsi. Realistically it's like choosing to go eat or not. Eventually you're going to have to acknowledge the desire for it. Being gay and suppressing it due to societies religious taboo is an act of evil on religions part in itself. Suppressing nature and peoples unharmful tendencies with some ancient myths and an ever-changing moral cloud is completely rude and ignorant of their situation.

All and all, anyone can say it's odd and gross and all that, but when you protest it and make sure they are incapable of having the same rights as you do, that is the problem. They are as human as you are.

The argument I can already see coming is the one re 'moral beliefs' because the Bible will be used as proof again. It is suppressing nature, it is rude, and it is ignorant. Not only are they as human as we are, but they can die a death so horrible, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy - if I had one. I would love to have an answer as to why gays who do believe and who do accept the Bible (they are out there, contrary to what some might think the religious zealots have not driven them ALL from their faith), just aren't good enough to be 'cured'. How about the innocent babies born HIV+ from the get go? Talk about heartbreaking.

[Annella]

You both err because you don't know the redeeming power of God.  I've personally seen God heal all kinds of sicknesses (even Cancer) in my travels, and ministering in Revivals and different churches.  You don't have to believe it, but every Doctor will tell you that people get healed, and they have documentation on it.  The doctor has no explanation except a miracle took place.  Look it up on the Net.  Surely jordandog, being in the medical field, you have come across this?

When someone needs surgery to have a growth removed, and they are prayed for the night before, and the growth disappears.....what would you call that?  When a deaf and dumb person (from birth) gets prayed for, and in a matter of 30 seconds hears and talks....what is that?  Even though the phonics was way off....he talked.  He repeated what we told him to say.  When a Heroin addict comes for deliverance (we prayed for him), and they are delivered with no withdrawls, and no future cravings, what is that?  When a gay person comes for deliverance from the gay lifestyle, and God delivers them, and heals the AIDS ravishing their body, so it disappears.  Are they faking?  After years?

I've seen healings with my own 2 eyes.  I can't deny it.  We do tell people!  I've told you.....do you believe me or is it hogwash?  Is it so hard to believe that the God that created our bodies, can also heal them?  In Jesus day when he went around healing all manner of sickness, they said he was a fake, and was of the devil.  They knew who He was and what He did.....but still crucified Him.

Would you believe if I gave you Pastors phone numbers to call.  I'll even give you Pastors numbers that don't even know me in different states, and you can be sure I haven't talked to them.  Would you believe them if they told you of Healings?  I'm willing to do that for you so you can know and believe.  I'll go through my Directory and pick them out at random.  Better yet, I can give you numbers of our Colleges and you can speak to those who have PHD's, and are in our organization, and have seen healings themselves.  I want you to believe, not to prove myself right.

let me clarify something here.  I will stand by the Word of God, and defend it all the way, no matter what the issue is.  I can't deny my Lord or His Word.....ever  What is written in the Bible is True.  Every word is ours.  It tells us we can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.  Do you believe it?  Thousands upon thousands have received this gift, but most religions will tell you that it was only for the Apostles, and not for us today.  I got it at 19.  It was a supernatural experience.  People are still getting it.

I love you, and want you to believe.  Please, there is no push to convert you.  Just to give you some truthful information so you have the knowledge.  After you make your inquiries, do whatever you want with it.  You won't be pushed into anything.....I give you my promise.

I apologize for any offense.  I'll give you all the information, and you can make inquiries yourself.  if you never want to come back and tell me anything about what you found out......that's okay too.

I'll look for the other thread about when Amy and I were talking about homosexuality in the Bible.  It seemed to me that the discussion started off with a question from you.....I could be wrong.  I wouldn't be the first time.  I hope it hasn't been deleted.  I'm trying to remember if Marieelissa started the thread.  There was so much information in it.