Religion and Homosexuality

[cubarican210]

Well queenofnines I'll just have to pray for you then. Let Jesus be the judge of you once that day comes. As you know this country of America was founded by Christians. It just got perverted along the way when people started losing faith. But the day will come eventually. Hopefully by then it won't be too late for you. You can continue on and on but you're not going to change my point of view. Of course I know I can't change yours but someone or something will one day. Obviously, there's something bigger out there that created us. You just don't want to see that. But that's ok you can continue to have a closed mind and no conscience if you want to. Don't worry one day all the answers you're looking for will be revealed. 

[cubarican210]

Do you not realize that the middle east has been at war since Bible times? Israel is such a tiny country and it's protected. All the other countries around it fight to gain control of it and they can't. Just a little heads up before you start denying that God does not exist.

Oh really?  Countries being at war over something and having this mentioned in writing PROVES NOTHING.  Should we believe in Spiderman, then, since New York City is mentioned?

There's wars there BECAUSE people believe in god and stupid sh*t like "holy lands".  There's not wars there because there "is" a god.  BIG difference.  What about all of the wars BEFORE Christianity?  Does Athens getting invaded prove the Greek religions?  Obviously not.  Do some research before you claim these assertions!

I'll just have to pray at night for each and everyone of you.

Okay, but you'll be wasting your time.  And not in the way that you think.  To say "I'll pray for you" is such a phony, self-righteous statement.  I doubt you'll actually pray for any of us; it's just a "nice" thing to say, now isn't it?  I know you'll be up late watching Jimmy Kimmel instead.  lol

How did we come to be then? Give me an answer, because it sure wasn't from evolution.

Well I came from my parents, and they came from their parents, and so on...

If it was then there wouldn't be anymore gorillas, apes, or monkeys in the world. Don't you think? Just a few things to think about.     

*face palm*  YOU telling US to think after ending with a line like that?  Haha!

Thanks for showing that you really don't know anything about evolution.  Cubarican -- if Americans came from Europe, then why are there still Europeans?!  Oh noes!

Well girl you don't know me and I don't know you. Of course it's not self righteous to pray for anyone. It's a privilege that I have. You can pray too if you want. Don't know who you would pray to. But yeah, I pray everyday and believe me my life is better because of it. And seriously, when did Spiderman become relevant in this conversation? To tell you the truth queenofnines, I have no idea who Jimmy Kimmel is. So you wasted your time writing that one. I would take a million face palms to defend what I believe in. Keep them coming girl.

As for this line you wrote right here "Thanks for showing that you really don't know anything about evolution.  Cubarican -- if Americans came from Europe, then why are there still Europeans?!  Oh noes!"

I know you should be much more smarter than to write something so dumb like that. It's obvious there are still Europeans in this world. But that evolution crap doesn't make sense at all. But whatever I'm not going to bash you anymore because I don't know you and I don't want to offend you anymore. I suggest if you see my opinion in a forum don't quote me and just ignore me. Thanks! Hasta la vista queenofnines!

[queenofnines]

As you know this country of America was founded by Christians.

No it wasn't.  There were some Christians, some deists, some puritans, and even atheists.  Even if they were all 100% Christian, that would have no relevance to what we should believe today.  P.S. They founded a secular (free from religious oppression) government.  If you want a theocracy, move to the Middle East.

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin

It just got perverted along the way when people started losing faith.

Christians are still the majority, so why are you blaming it on the faithless?  Statistics show the more religious an area/group is, the more likely it is to suffer from various social ills.  We have it pretty damn good in America, anyway; I don't know why people bemoan "the good ol' days".  That's just the thing to do, I guess.

Of course I know I can't change yours but someone or something will one day.

I've already done my time as a True Christian; I got the stamp in my Passport of Life and have no plans to go back.

Obviously, there's something bigger out there that created us.

Yes, yes there is.  It's called the universe.

But that's ok you can continue to have a closed mind and no conscience if you want to.

It took an OPEN mind to get me out of religion.  The only "open-mindedness" that exists there is the ability to persuade yourself with delusions.  As for no conscience, I am a hell of a lot more moral than the god of the Bible.  Have you read it??

And seriously, when did Spiderman become relevant in this conversation?

I mentioned him to prove a point...it doesn't matter if a holy book mentions a few actual places, names, or events.  Christians try to use theirs as a weak "proof" for god, but as we can see from Spidey, it doesn't prove anything.

I know you should be much more smarter than to write something so dumb like that.

Funny you should make such a judgement, for two reasons: 1) this is your first experience with me and 2) any intelligent person can see that joke about Europeans WAS clever.  It's clever because the point is we came from a common ancestor, and that's why there are still Europeans (primates, too).  Get it?

But that evolution crap doesn't make sense at all.

Probably because the only information you have on it is a bunch of misconceptions.  Tell me why we have an appendix, then, and why whales have bones for legs?

I suggest if you see my opinion in a forum don't quote me and just ignore me.

Sorry, I'm not the type of person who backs down just because things get a little heated.  

[jordandog]

We were also at one time in the trees who got down in search of food and then started walking upright, eventually.

The Ramapithecines, which include such species as Sivapithecus and Ramapithecus, are the direct forebears of Australopithecus and therefore of man. Many anthropologists say it took man's ancestors, not man, not humans to go from living in trees to walking on the ground. It's estimated that happened four million to eight million years ago.

Ramapithecines is a genus of extinct primates, which are animals and NOT humans.

When are you going to realize that we are related to our ancestors?

How dare you even write that to me. I have stood on my head defending evolution and know more about it than you could possibly learn or forget. You know what? This sudden turn around into you now defending evolution makes me ill, you hypocrite.

[jordandog]

I have stood on my head defending evolution and know more about it than you could possibly learn or forget.

Shut up! You're stupid! You know more than I can learn...psh

Now, now, little girl, calm down. Shut up is NOT very grown up and I am far from stupid, another 'not nice'. It's okay for someone to know much more than you do. I won't qualify your last meat eating post, because you, as usual, did not bother to check out the source of the words you copied ie Wesley J. Smith. Among other things, he is a retired lawyer who fights for farmers and companies who raise cattle and other animals for slaughter. He is against animal rights activists. He feels they are attempting to take away human rights when it comes to animals and is very much against those who say we should all eat less meat. I have read some things he has written (he's a very published author in Bio-Ethics, but not that well respected by many) before this.

It's obvious you know nothing as to why a human body has a long intestine, so that we can digest and use vegetables and fruits, and not a 'short' intestine like a carnivore, which was necesary for them to be able to quickly digest and expel all the toxins from their diet of primarily flesh. Would you like to me to continue on and explain the rest of the human body in relation to adaptations and evolution, 'Miss IQ of 174'?

I will not just sit here and suck down what you post if it is not accurate.
If you want to get back into the name calling and childish rudeness, be ready for it to come back on you.

[shernajwine]

To put it another way reason has no place in faith. God is beyond reason

Here goes my brain cramping again...I wonder if it is actually bad for my health to be in this forum??  

The Bible tells us about things outside our experience. Nobody, born in our lifetime, walks on water or rises from the grave on the third day. So in order to accept the Bible, we must bridge the gap between what we know or believe, and what we trust. And that bridge is not reason; it is faith. But the Bible also does not ask us to build the bridge without a foundation, which is knowledge. Therefore, I believe that reason is not the enemy of trust; it is an essential part of the foundation. It follows, of course, that the foundation should be solid, not made of falsehoods or clever stories that melt away. It must include the pure gospel of Jesus Christ. Our foundation of knowledge also includes what we believe to be true from science and from the Word of God

********/************************************

Imagine, looking at the illustration above, that the bolded asterisks are what represent human capacity for logic and understanding, everything in that bolded realm is the natural and explainable. In this bolded realm there is natural evidence for the existence of God, this evidence is rational, logical, and reasonable. But it does not represent God's entire character; but only a hint and glimpse of who and what God is and what he is capable of because, this is as far as our human minds can take us. Outside the bolded realm is unknowable. But within the bolded realm we can have reason to trust what is outside our natural understanding, based on the logic and knowledge found within our capabilities. We can have faith of what exists outside our understanding BASED on reasonable deductions made from within our understanding.
 

[queenofnines]

The Bible tells us about things outside our experience.

That's amazing, because the Bible tells us very little outside the experiences of ancient goat herders.  There was nothing about E=MC2, germs, DNA, electricity, basic physics, don't rape, don't have slaves...pretty much anything of any importance in our society today.  This is supposed to be THE WORD OF GOD - c'mon now!  But all we get is explanations that are to be **expected** from primitive people who had no concept of these things...  The only thing I can think of that is "good" in the Bible is The Golden Rule, but that came way before Jesus, anyway, and was just repeated.

Nobody, born in our lifetime, walks on water or rises from the grave on the third day. So in order to accept the Bible, we must bridge the gap between what we know or believe, and what we trust.

Please explain why god stopped doing these miraculous things??  I know - because they never happened at all!

[walksalone11]

Tell me why we have an appendix, then,

That is a very good question. In fact it is so good that it puzzled doctors for many years. If you read last month's question and answer, you will remember that many years ago organs such as the tonsils and the appendix were thought to be useless “leftovers” of evolution. These parts were called vestigial (ve-STIJ-ee-al) organs. The word “vestigial” means a trace or a mark left by something, much like a footprint. It was thought that these “useless” organs were marks or “footprints” of evolution.

However, as doctors learned more about these organs, especially the appendix, they discovered that they are not useless after all. The appendix is a small pouch that extends off the large intestine. It also is called the vermiform (worm-shaped) appendix because it looks like a three-inch earthworm. In recent years, doctors have observed that the appendix is a tough soldier against infection, especially in people who have been exposed to some types of radiation. Inside the appendix is lymphoid (LIM-foid) tissue which helps produce white blood cells that fight disease. Also, early
in a child's life the appendix is relatively larger than it is in adults. It is during these early stages of life that the appendix appears to play an even bigger role in guarding the body from infection.

The more we learn about the human body, the more we realize that it does not have “useless” parts. In fact, the Bible teaches that humans are “fearfully and wonderfully made” (Psalm 139:14). The old familiar child's saying is true: “God doesn't make junk!”

Where did you plagiarizer that from?

[walksalone11]

Where did you plagiarizer that from?

oops forgot to put a link.

AHWW MY GAWD!!!!! I MUSS BE PSYCHIC!!!!!

[shernajwine]

Please explain why god stopped doing these miraculous things??  I know - because they never happened at all!

Whatever makes you feel better 

[Peds]

Wow, ok I was gone a few days and this topic seems to have really exploded... a little off topic actually, from homosexuality to perfection to power, etc. Anyway here are a few observations:

29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, insolent, arrogant and boastful

Hmm, well I have a few gay friends and I know for a fact that they are not full of strife and murder. And as for all the character traits, those can be applied to straight people as much as homosexuals. My mom is a gossip, my friend's brother is arrogant and boastful, my aunt's ex-husband is slanderous, insolent, arrogant, malicious, and deceitful... all of those people are straight. My gay friends share none of those character traits, save for one who is envious of my artistic ability. I fail to see how my aunt's ex-husband is more benevolent than my gay friends.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. -- Leviticus 18:22

Well this doesn't answer my question at all. It just says that homosexuality is an abomination, it doesn't say why. I suppose the passages from the previous quote could be classified as the 'why' but those reasons are false, as exemplified by the straight and gay people in my life.

It is not hard to see that all of you atheists have so much pain and grief and comes through so eloquently in your writing.

Tsk. Tsk. Broad generalizations like this are exactly what things like racism consist of. Do all Asians know karate? Are all white people bad at sports? Are all black people addicted to KFC? Do all atheists have so much pain and grief? No. Just no. Try to use logic to defend your position and never slander your opponent. It offers no benefit to your argument. Plus TimeforGod, through a quote from the Bible, classified slander as a sinister trait attributable to homosexuals.

I just cant wrap my mind around the intolerance....if they aren't grabbing your *bleep* or victimizing your relations, why do you care so much?

My thoughts exactly. Well said my friend.

It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil.

Sometimes disobedience is necessary to correct an evil. Just because a rule is set does not make it 'good', whether the rule be set by man or God, they can be unjust and must be disobeyed.

For example:

Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves... You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life."

The Bible says you can own slaves but I think most people would agree with me when I say slavery is an evil establishment and these particular words from the Bible should not be obeyed.



Alright, I've only gotten through reading to the 3rd page but I have other things to do tonight. Know that I intend to read every post on this topic and hope that someone will provide me with a reasonable answer to the question, "Why is the Bible against homosexuals." The gist of the answers so far is "The Bible says homosexuality an abomination, so don't do it" I want to know why? Why is it considered an abomination? Because the only reason I see right now is simple-minded prejudice. I want a real reason with real logic. Please. I want the truth, and I hope its not just prejudice.

[queenofnines]

Know that I intend to read every post on this topic and hope that someone will provide me with a reasonable answer to the question, "Why is the Bible against homosexuals." The gist of the answers so far is "The Bible says homosexuality an abomination, so don't do it" I want to know why? Why is it considered an abomination?

Well in my original comment, I told you I think it IS just prejudice.  People always seem to want someone to hate (blacks, women)...and if the Bible states something that makes them uncomfortable is wrong (i.e. homosexual relations), they're going to jump all over that and take advantage of it.  I think it is also an easy commandment to become "passionate" about...there are plenty of things Christians flat-out IGNORE sbout the Bible, but this homosexuality being a sin thing, it still has a lot of relevance today; it is still a hot topic.  Rest assured, in 20 or 30 years (or sooner), gays will have the same rights as anyone else in the eyes of society, and to criticize them will be considered SHAMEFUL by all.  It's just unfortunate that it takes so long to get there.  Do we not learn anything from history?!

Common arguments against homosexuality, and their rebuttals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm3cWytGAqw&playnext=1&videos=M7SVUVVbzJM

[gurgelj]

Bible is a man made book. God is so perfect that he doesn't care about gays and lesbians, but how well we interact with each other. This world is too full of rules, what you can and cannot do, if we are always thinking about what is a sin, what is not a sin, we will never live life to the fullest. Life is good, man just make it miserable.

[TimeforGod]

29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, insolent, arrogant and boastful

Hmm, well I have a few gay friends and I know for a fact that they are not full of strife and murder. And as for all the character traits, those can be applied to straight people as much as homosexuals. My mom is a gossip, my friend's brother is arrogant and boastful, my aunt's ex-husband is slanderous, insolent, arrogant, malicious, and deceitful... all of those people are straight. My gay friends share none of those character traits, save for one who is envious of my artistic ability. I fail to see how my aunt's ex-husband is more benevolent than my gay friends.

I think you are reading a little too much into the scripture. These are not traits of gay men these are traits of sinners. My point is that Homosexuality is a sin just like murder, and deceit. Christians are not perfect we sin just as a homosexual sin. It doesn’t mean we should tolerate the sin. It means we love the sinner hate the sin! I have Homosexual friends so this is a hard subject for me as a believer. But I will tell you just as I tell them. You would not want me to abuse a child and call myself a Christian, Just like I wouldn't want you to sleep with a man and call yourself a Christian, But if we believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for ALL our sins then that means ALL. Not just the ones we think in our human minds that we can tolerate like gossip. You can be delivered from Homosexuality just like you can be delivered from Drug and Alcohol abuse.  So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36  

[amyrouse]

A good website concerning religion and homosexuality: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

Concerning Sodom and Gomorrah... the acts themselves were not condemned...it was the inhospitable nature of the citizens that were condemned.  I get sick of hearing people use Sodom and Gomorrah as an excuse to discriminate against homosexuals.  Its about loving your neighbor and the golden rule...not about how people **** each other.

Do you want to look at scripture about loving your neighbor...read up on Ruth and Naomi.  No...they were not lesbians, but these two women shared love for each other that transcended family.  They accepted each other as they were.  We need more of this in the world, instead of discriminating because we interpret the Bible to say that g-d condemns something.  If g-d condemns something, let g-d do the condemning.  G-d said love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18).  Do you want someone who is gay to tell you that you are doing something wrong in the privacy of your own bedroom?  Of course not; so why should you tell them they are wrong?

Sure, there are other things in the KJV of the Bible that could be interpreted as g-d commanding us to do things that are, for lack of better words, not so loving.  The thing is, though, that if we want g-d to be a forgiving and loving character, we should strive to do this ourselves.  If we spend so much time preaching to people how they are wrong instead of loving them, how can we expect g-d to forgive our trespasses against the golden rule?