Religion and Homosexuality

[FuzzyCottonsocks]

I still wonder why Christians in particular hone in on homosexuality like it's the worst sin ever.  Go pick on murderers or child molesters. 

[queenofnines]

I still wonder why Christians in particular hone in on homosexuality like it's the worst sin ever.  Go pick on murderers or child molesters. 

I've heard many of them say that all sins are equal in the eyes of god!   

[FuzzyCottonsocks]

I still wonder why Christians in particular hone in on homosexuality like it's the worst sin ever.  Go pick on murderers or child molesters. 

I've heard many of them say that all sins are equal in the eyes of god!   

Yet they treat homosexuals with the most disdain. 

[shernajwine]

God created men with free will. He did not create evil, but man has a choice to engage in evil or engage in good.

You say god did not create evil, eh?  So evil came from *gulp* nothing?!  Haha, just had to throw that joke in there.  

But seriously, how can you say god is the creator of all things, EXCEPT evil?  Did he not create Lucifer?  Yes, yes he did.  In any case, god allows evil - a great deal of it - as part of his f-ed up "plan" or test for the world.  If god was truly omnipotent, he would have surely come up with a better plan than this.  If god was truly omnibenevolent, he would not be able to stand for evil at all (even temporary evil, as you Christians claim).

All I'm doing by saying stuff like "case closed" is pointing out that y'all can't change the definitions of words to suit your own purposes.  If a god exists, he is certainly NOT perfect, because perfect cannot encompass any flaws, and life as we know it can be very flawed indeed.  If a god exists, he is also none of the omnis I described above.

I discussed this topic here http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=17497.0
Evil is not really a created thing. You can't see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe. Still, skeptics like to claim that God created evil and cite the Bible to "prove" their point. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

Nowhere in the definition of perfect will you find that it says perfect is incapable of creating imperfection. God created man and angels with free will. Lucifer was an angel who used his free will to choose evil. Men make choices, and the evidence of evil in their lives is evidence to the absence of good. I have made and still make evil choices, when I choose evil I am rejecting God...evil is the absence of God because God is good. You're right that perfect cannot encompass any flaws, God himself is not flawed and He most certainly is all the omni's you listed.

[queenofnines]

Evil is not really a created thing. You can't see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe. Still, skeptics like to claim that God created evil and cite the Bible to "prove" their point. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.

I agree that evil is not a created thing; it's a concept or label.  Evil does not actually exist in and of itself; however, as members of a social society, we can label certain behaviors as more desirable for survival than others.  It is wrong to claim that one can't see, touch, feel, smell, or hear one's opinion of what "evil' is...we certainly can and do every day!  Also, evil IS a by-product of physical processes because the entire universe is physical!!

It's playing word games to say that god (if he exists) did not create evil -- he created the CAPACITY for evil.  There's no getting around that logical fact.  An all-good and all-powerful god would never have allowed the world to be so full of what we call evil in the first place...because once again, such a god would be violating the definitions of the words perfect, omnipotent, etc. to have the world be in its current state ("temporary" evil still violates omnibenevolence). 

I seriously cannot understand how believers look at the astounding amounts of atrocities in the world and reasonably think an all-good intelligence has anything to do with it.  Asking myself, "Is this the best god can do?" is one of the key doubts that got me out of Christianity.  The Christian god would have to be such a small god and completely incompetent to have a chance of actually existing in this universe.  The world looks and acts exactly like it should if there IS NO GOD.

I feel really sad for people who think their only life is some wackjob's test and despite natural disasters, abuse, disease, torture, birth defects, hardships, murder, stress, etc. etc. think there is still a magical sky daddy who's "in control".

Nowhere in the definition of perfect will you find that it says perfect is incapable of creating imperfection...You're right that perfect cannot encompass any flaws

You're not thinking about this long and hard enough.  Perfection CANNOT beget imperfection...it is logically impossible (please, really take a minute to focus on this statement).  It's all too easy to jump on the no-think train and say, "Hey, god is perfect - so were Adam and Eve - but they CHOSE evil!"...completely forgetting that this is **logically impossible** when dealing with a "perfect" god and his "perfect" creation!!

[amyrouse]

You're not thinking about this long and hard enough.  Perfection CANNOT beget imperfection...it is logically impossible (please, really take a minute to focus on this statement).  It's all too easy to jump on the no-think train and say, "Hey, god is perfect - so were Adam and Eve - but they CHOSE evil!"...completely forgetting that this is **logically impossible** when dealing with a "perfect" god and his "perfect" creation!!

That is...it depends on your interpretation of the Adam and Eve story.  Did they choose evil, or did they sacrifice immortality for knowledge?  By eating from the tree of knowledge, did Eve make the decision that she would rather face death than live a life of ignorance...and who informed her of this choice?  Was g-d's number one angel being so deviant (makes me think of the short lived TV show God, the Devil, and Bob)?  So by looking at the story of Eve eating the apple...a conclusion could possibly be drawn that those who choose knowledge are evil and those who choose blind belief and ignorance, for lack of better words, not evil.  Another discussion I've had with my Rabbi on several occasions.

I find the interpretation of Eve eating the apple as an evil act to be offensive toward women and thinking people (I am not saying I think you have offended me, queenofnines, since I would tend to think you would find the story itself and most likely the "evil" interpretation to be offensive as well.  I don't believe the story is an accurate account of actual events...I doubt the event actually occurred.  I think the bible should be a book of moral teachings that are open to interpretation and not a historical account.  ).

[jordandog]

I think the bible should be a book of moral teachings that are open to interpretation and not a historical account.

I agree with that completely. Nor should it be used as a weapon held over the heads of the masses as a means of control. I have NO problem with many of the parables and teachings within it when they are taken as a 'code of ethics' to live by.

[shernajwine]

The Christian god would have to be such a small god and completely incompetent to have a chance of actually existing in this universe

It takes a small minded person to believe that they can fit God into their mental finite box, you can't try to define God by the natural world. There is logical evidence in this world that points to a creator but God himself is not logical and when you try to define Him by the natural world you will fall very short of who and what God is and what He is capable of doing.

Nowhere does the Bible state that the universe was created to be perfect. God Himself called it "good"6 and "very good,"7 but never "perfect." In fact, God Himself stated that part of the original creation was "not good."8 The Bible states that the current universe is not perfect,9 but was designed to be temporary10 and will be replaced with a perfect universe11 that will be permanent.12 Science also tells us that the universe was designed to be temporary.13
Why would God create an imperfect, temporary universe only to replace it later with a perfect one? Why wouldn't God have created a perfect universe in the first place? This is a good question, but shows a lack of understanding of the biblical reason of why God created the universe.
God's purposes in creating the universe go beyond merely creating free will beings that love Him in this temporary universe. Jesus explained the ultimate goal of God in the parable of the banquet:

    Jesus replied: "A certain man [representing God] was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.' Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.' The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.' 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.' Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. (Luke 14:16-23)

This parable tells that God wants not only a relationship with humans in this universe, but a relationship with billions15 of these creatures in His future, perfect creation. If God's purpose is to have relationships with free will beings in a future creation, then there must be a means by which these beings can make a choice to enter or not enter into this relationship. The means by which we make this choice is exactly the message of the Bible.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evilandsuffering.html

So by looking at the story of Eve eating the apple...a conclusion could possibly be drawn that those who choose knowledge are evil and those who choose blind belief and ignorance, for lack of better words, not evil

Eve was not denied knowledge by being told not to eat from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil". The devil persuaded her that she would be like God if she ate from this tree, (trying to be God is exactly what got satan cast out of heaven in the first place) and  after she ate and adam ate from the tree they now had the ability to feel shame. A tool the devil uses to bind people up inside, feeling full of guilt and condemnation which keeps them from having a relationship with God because of feeling unworthy. Knowledge is not evil, God does not consider knowledge evil...
Proverbs 24:5
A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength
Ecclesiastes 2:26
For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy:
Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
2 Corinthians 8:7
Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
This list could keep going!!

[amyrouse]

So by looking at the story of Eve eating the apple...a conclusion could possibly be drawn that those who choose knowledge are evil and those who choose blind belief and ignorance, for lack of better words, not evil

Eve was not denied knowledge by being told not to eat from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil". The devil persuaded her that she would be like God if she ate from this tree, (trying to be God is exactly what got satan cast out of heaven in the first place) and  after she ate and adam ate from the tree they now had the ability to feel shame. A tool the devil uses to bind people up inside, feeling full of guilt and condemnation which keeps them from having a relationship with God because of feeling unworthy. Knowledge is not evil, God does not consider knowledge evil...

One cannot seek the knowledge g-d has and live forever.  You have a different interpretation than I do.  I see nothing wrong with that...

And I do not claim that g-d considers knowledge evil.  I was stating that relying on the interpretations others have can confuse, and that idea that the quest for knowledge is evil is one possible conclusion, not that I felt that way or that I think g-d would. 

By your interpretation, though, if g-d told Eve not to eat from the knowledge of good and evil, how else could one interpret g-d's request?  Eve made a choice to sacrifice immortality for knowledge, and the devil is to blame?  Or is Eve to blame when she wasn't fully aware of the consequences of her actions?  How could she be aware of them?  She had yet to eat from the tree.

[shernajwine]

Eve made a choice to sacrifice immortality for knowledge, and the devil is to blame?  Or is Eve to blame when she wasn't fully aware of the consequences of her actions?  How could she be aware of them?  She had yet to eat from the tree.

Eve made a choice.....that is a key phrase. Eve had the ability to make a choice. She was well aware of the act of disobedience and well aware that to eat from the tree would mean death. She knew what God said not to do and she was persuaded with the idea that should could be like God and have the wisdom of God...she made a choice. Adam and Eve were given free will.

God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that eating the fruit truly gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge. It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil.

[amyrouse]

God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that eating the fruit truly gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge. It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil.

Do as I say, because I say so.  Wouldn't the more reasonable expectation be to explain the consequences...why g-d didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, instead of saying "See this tree?  Don't eat the fruit.  Because I said so.  Or else you'll die."  Where is death explained to Eve prior to this?  Does a child understand that eating that spider will hurt them before it is explained to them by their parents?  Everyone must learn through instruction and experience, and someone saying "No, no, because I say so" doesn't cut it.  Like I said, my interpretation is different than yours.  The lesson I garner from the Eve/apple story is to seek knowledge, not that it was Eve's fault that I have the capacity to sin.

Besides that...if it was really such a big no-no to eat of the tree...why was it even placed in the garden in the first place?  G-d wanted to test Adam and Eve? 

The fruit is symbolic of the knowledge.  It wasn't some grand epiphany of knowledge that came to Eve magically once her teeth pierced the skin of the apple.

[queenofnines]

So by looking at the story of Eve eating the apple...a conclusion could possibly be drawn that those who choose knowledge are evil and those who choose blind belief and ignorance, for lack of better words, not evil.

Exactly.  Good video on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAMSMiArq4E&playnext=1&videos=sIMulSWANwM

Another logical point to bring up is to consume fruit is to bring death to the living cells of those items.  Adam and Eve were allowed to (and most likely did) consume other fruits before they consumed the tainted one.  But death didn't exist before the fall.  Do you see the logical inconsistency?  Either the couple starved, or the Bible is wrong.  

Eve being written as the first to eat the fruit has DEFINITELY had negative consequences for women (among many other verses).  This is disturbing because it's obvious that a story containing a dirt man, rib woman, talking snake, cursed fruit, etc. is a primitive creation myth.

[queenofnines]

Besides that...if it was really such a big no-no to eat of the tree...why was it even placed in the garden in the first place?  G-d wanted to test Adam and Eve?

I like you, Amy.  You have your head on straight!   

What is the purpose of "testing" his creation when he already knew the outcome (being all-knowing and all)?  God set the dominoes in place for it to happen.

It wasn't some grand epiphany of knowledge that came to Eve magically once her teeth pierced the skin of the apple.

Right.  My husband always likes to ask, "So Christians are saying that a piece of fruit has the ability to magically rearrange the neurons in the brain upon consumption??"

[amyrouse]

I like you, Amy.  You have your head on straight!   

Thanks.   

I believe that it is possible to reconcile faith and logic.  I am a religious person, and I love g-d.  But I also adore my parents, and over the years, I have questioned them more than once.    I tend to think it would be worse not to use our capacity for knowledge than for us to reject religion.  I believe in the "golden rule" and feel that good works are more important than faith alone.  I am not alone in believing this, either.  It is a recurring theme in Judaism (still, promising not to try to convert, just explaining.  It is common for Rabbis to turn potential converts away ten times before they can complete the conversion).

[amyrouse]

Fruit can't make you intelligent, but meat can, in fact the consumption of meat is what made us intelligent...hence to know good and evil.

I'm a vegetarian.  Are you saying that makes me un-intelligent? 

Eve is the mother of all living (human) beings....in fact Eve is the link for which scientists have concluded is evolution....you know she is our grandmother to which chimps branched off!

Ok so Eve is this link....does it say anywhere in the bible that Eve wasn't an Ape? Or the grandmother that is the common ancestor with an Ape?

I think you are referring to Mitochondrial Eve here...this is not the biblical Eve.  You can go here to learn more: http://biology.suite101.com/article.cfm/who_is_mitochondrial_eve

I am still reading the bible (so this is all I got, right now) and decided not to skip through it and read it from start to finish.

I applaud you for taking the initiative to try to read the material on your own rather than allow someone else to tell you what it says.