Religion and Homosexuality

[Falconer02]

Do I think it's abnormal? Yes but a choice they made to be that way. But for someone who thinks it isn't a choice, I think you may have implied something a little insulting the people you are trying to defend.

It is abnormal- you got that right. But it's not a choice. This type of choice isn't like choosing between a coke and a pepsi. They are naturally attracted to certain individuals as they grow up and they cannot change that. Telling them they cannot be attracted since it's abnormal is going against what is natural. Abnormalities are part of nature. Ultimately both straight and gays have lifestyles so there is no difference to the definition of a lifestyle here.

[shernajwine]

Ultimately both straight and gays have lifestyles so there is no difference to the definition of a lifestyle here.

You're right, but blindness is not a lifestyle and that was my point.

And if you look further up the thread I posted a link citing scientific research that says it's not a choice. OH WAIT, that site doesn't do real science. 

[SurveyMack10]

Someone who is born blind didn't make a choice that made them enter the world blind.

Ok...so...they were born that way...isn't it possible that people were born "other" ways, as well? 

I believe homosexuality is a choice, not a trait you're born with.

[SurveyMack10]

Do I think it's abnormal? Yes but a choice they made to be that way. But for someone who thinks it isn't a choice, I think you may have implied something a little insulting the people you are trying to defend.

It is abnormal- you got that right. But it's not a choice. This type of choice isn't like choosing between a coke and a pepsi. They are naturally attracted to certain individuals as they grow up and they cannot change that. Telling them they cannot be attracted since it's abnormal is going against what is natural. Abnormalities are part of nature. Ultimately both straight and gays have lifestyles so there is no difference to the definition of a lifestyle here.

Ultimately whether or not homosexuality is a choice or something people are born with is going to boil down to opinion, no matter what scientific evidence is posted on here they will be other scientific evidence supporting the opposing view as well...if it had been absolutely proven that it was or wasn't we wouldn't be sitting here having this debate. Straight and gay are both lifestyles, some of us just happen to disagree with the gay lifestyle. Doesn't mean we hate or condemn them, just disagree.

[502mania]

Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?

[Falconer02]

How long would the human race last if everyone was a catholic priest?

[amyrouse]

Ok...so...they were born that way...isn't it possible that people were born "other" ways, as well

If by "other" you mean gay. Blindness, deafness, and any other abnormal birth defect is not a sin to God. Homosexuality is a lifestyle, these other things are handicaps and in some birth defect cases, doctors can fix or partially fix the defect so the person can live a more normal life. And I'm sure that gay people would not like having their lifestyle compared to a handicap or abnormality of the human body and condition!

Do I think it's abnormal? Yes but a choice they made to be that way. But for someone who thinks it isn't a choice, I think you may have implied something a little insulting the people you are trying to defend.

No...I'm just saying that it is possible for people to be born certain ways, so why is it so difficult to believe that someone could be born gay.  G-d didn't intend for people to be born with any type of "abnormality".  People who are born blind are not handicapped...they know nothing different from the way with which they were born.  Sighted people do exist, but being sighted is not part of a blind person's life.  I have three blind cousins...I speak from experience here.  In fact, if someone were to imply to any of my three cousins that they were handicapped or could not do something without assistance, they would be highly offended, just as if someone were to imply they were abnormal.  Why...cause they were born that way! 

I don't view homosexuality as abnormal any more than I believe that blindness at birth is a handicap.  I honestly believe people fall in love with people, not genitalia (that's just jewelry).  Some people are just naturally inclined to be attracted to certain genitalia.  My husband has this saying...he says now that he is with me and we are married that he is an amysexual, and anyone else wouldn't do it for him.  Two of my best and oldest friends just got married after being together eleven years...and they are both anatomically female...and I believe wholeheartedly that they were born to love each other...just like my husband and I were born to love each other.  To view a love that pure as abnormal or sinful is the true sin IMO. 

[Falconer02]

OH WAIT, that site doesn't do real science.

Oh it does. Just remember the name of the site though.

Straight and gay are both lifestyles, some of us just happen to disagree with the gay lifestyle. Doesn't mean we hate or condemn them, just disagree.

Agreed. Grant them the same rights. Is it genetic? Completely questionable. Is it a trait you're born with? Probably. Does growing up certain ways add to it? Sure. Given that, if the individual finds himself attracted to the same-sex, that is not a choice. It's natural. To grow and say "Hey! I'm going to choose to like men instead of women......right now! Puberty gooo!" that would be a choice but that's just fake reasoning. A homosexual can fight the attraction, but that's unnatural and I don't see that as a very fair choice-- and that's why I don't recognize it as a choice.

To view a love that pure as abnormal or sinful is the true sin IMO.  

EXACTLY! Except there's nothing wrong with abnormalities like this. It's unique! And to hate a people for their love of one another is ultimately stupid.

[Annella]

Someone who is born blind didn't make a choice that made them enter the world blind.

Ok...so...they were born that way...isn't it possible that people were born "other" ways, as well? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also have to say, though, that though there are misunderstandings and disagreements, that I do not see Annella in a negative light.  She and I differ vastly on some of the things we believe, but I have always found her to be loving in her disagreements with me.  We have come together through a debate to the other side still with  and it is very difficult to find that these days with people of differing faiths.  I see so many times people who say "...but I don't agree with your religion" without taking the time to really know what that religion entails, and from the start with me Annella asked questions of me about my faith in an effort to garner a better understanding of who I am.  She may be more conservative in her faith than I, and her words may be viewed as harsh, and I may not agree with her, but I still have nothing but  .

A little nap.......jet lag.

Thank you Amy  You have never "slammed" me for anything.  Yes, we have disagreed, but not to the point of calling names, or slinging accusations that are uncalled for.

I don't believe my words are harsh.  They are clear and to the point.  I stand up for what I believe in the Word of God.  There is no waffling, and you will always know my stand.  I don't appreciate being called names, but it doesn't sway what I believe.  Doesn't hurt my feelings.  I'm not here to convert, nor force my beliefs on anyone here like I've been accused.  That's not my intention at all....and never has been.  However, my opinion is just that.....my opinion.  Argue away...or debate away.....whatever.  However, if you don't believe the Bible, then what argument you have with me is moot.....as I wholeheartedly believe it.

If your angry at me because what I believe In the Bible, then your argument isn't with me either.....it's with the Bible itself and what it represents and teaches.

Do I believe in Freedom of Religion......Of course!!!  However, if it's a "religion" that preaches hate and death/destruction of any people or race, or glory of the enemy...no.  The world would be better off without any so called religion (IMHO).  There are many churches that have many good hearted people, all trying to live for God, and live a good life.  They have every right to do so.  I live my life by the Bible, not a religion or following.  A name on a church won't save anyone.

I'm not just conservative.....I'm VERY conservative.  You don't have to agree with me, or I with you.  These are the dictates of my heart, and always will be till the day I die, or God comes and gets me.  

Everyone has their own belief system.....or lack thereof that you live by.  We can agree to disagree...........  

[Annella]

Geez.....8 posts before mine....I'll never catch up!

Falconer02, who said anything about "hate" for the gays?  Yours, and other posts have used the word hate, but no Christian on here (including me) said they hated gays.  That's a misnomer you added into the mix.  There's no gay bashing going on here.  

[amyrouse]

Homosexual behavior is contrary to nature?  Explain this:  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html


Thinking about it in a different light, since this post

Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?

How long is the human race going to last with all this reproducin' heteros are doing all over the place?  Purely speculation here...but, (A) sex is pleasurable and (B) even animals have sex for pleasure alone, then wouldn't it be logical to believe that maybe there is a purpose for homosexuality?  If humankind keeps reproducing at current rates, then we are going to overpopulate ourselves worse than we are now...think of all the starving people not being able to lift their arms in the air because there just isn't any darn room to do so.  Maybe nature knows something we don't...or something we just don't want to accept.  Just a possibility here...

[SurveyMack10]

Agreed. Grant them the same rights. Is it genetic? Completely questionable. Is it a trait you're born with? Probably. Does growing up certain ways add to it? Sure. Given that, if the individual finds himself attracted to the same-sex, that is not a choice. It's natural. To grow and say "Hey! I'm going to choose to like men instead of women......right now! Puberty gooo!" that would be a choice but that's just fake reasoning. A homosexual can fight the attraction, but that's unnatural and I don't see that as a very fair choice-- and that's why I don't recognize it as a choice.

See this is opinion...I respect that that's what you think, but it absolutely doesn't mean that I have to believe the same things. You can't prove it, therefore you can't convince me. When something cannot be proven we often base our perception of it on our moral beliefs, I happen to believe it is morally wrong and you do not. It happens. I can sit here and say BEING GAY IS A CHOICE over and over and it's not going to make you believe it, just as you can sit here and say THEY'RE BORN THAT WAY and I will not believe it. Neither of us can prove it in any way, so it's based on opinion and our belief system.

[Annella]

Homosexual behavior is contrary to nature?  Explain this:  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html


Thinking about it in a different light, since this post

Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?

How long is the human race going to last with all this reproducin' heteros are doing all over the place?  Purely speculation here...but, (A) sex is pleasurable and (B) even animals have sex for pleasure alone, then wouldn't it be logical to believe that maybe there is a purpose for homosexuality?  If humankind keeps reproducing at current rates, then we are going to overpopulate ourselves worse than we are now...think of all the starving people not being able to lift their arms in the air because there just isn't any darn room to do so.  Maybe nature knows something we don't...or something we just don't want to accept.  Just a possibility here...

So now we're like the animals?  Or should say well, the animals are doing it, it must be okay for us to also?

While I understand some on here look to scientific research as their God (don't take offense Amy), it's marred in so many areas.  We've had countless threads on this.  

Animals are living in the same world as we.  A sinful state of man that dates back to Adam and Eve.  God cursed many things.  NOTHING is "good" like when He first made it.  After the fall of man, everything that was set in motion, sun, moon, seedtime, harvest, etc., have remained the same.  Other things did not.  They were cursed from that fateful day, including man.  Other things got perverted along the way because of man's continuing sinning, Idol worship, and changing the natural order of things.  Creation is finite, and was begun with a fine balance. Everything God made was good.  Man corrupted it, and still is.  Some insects and animals have no definitive parts of male or female, or have both.  They could not be gay if they wanted.  Maybe something God gave them to make sure a fragile species doesn't go extinct or something.  I really don't know.  I know worms are both sexes. However, God made man Male and Female.

I read somewhere that some species can change their sex if the only other partner available was their own sex. They can change their sex from male to female, or visa versa, for procreation.

There is scripture noting sexual confusion between men and animals (Bible).  There were very strict laws laid down in the Old Testament that seem silly until you study them out, and realize that God was actually protecting us AND His creation of animals from harm.  Remember, there was no reason for these laws before the sin of man.  Man took God's perfection and perverted it....with the help of the enemy.  Man's sin did more than just separate us from God.  Of course you need to believe the Bible to see this......sigh

I will be looking further into this to garner more information......to be continued.

[amyrouse]

Homosexual behavior is contrary to nature?  Explain this:  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html


Thinking about it in a different light, since this post

Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?

How long is the human race going to last with all this reproducin' heteros are doing all over the place?  Purely speculation here...but, (A) sex is pleasurable and (B) even animals have sex for pleasure alone, then wouldn't it be logical to believe that maybe there is a purpose for homosexuality?  If humankind keeps reproducing at current rates, then we are going to overpopulate ourselves worse than we are now...think of all the starving people not being able to lift their arms in the air because there just isn't any darn room to do so.  Maybe nature knows something we don't...or something we just don't want to accept.  Just a possibility here...

So now we're like the animals?  Or should say well, the animals are doing it, it must be okay for us to also?

While I understand some on here look to scientific research as their God (don't take offense Amy), it's marred in so many areas.  We've had countless threads on this.  

Animals are living in the same world as we.  A sinful state of man that dates back to Adam and Eve.  God cursed many things.  NOTHING is "good" like when He first made it.  After the fall of man, everything that was set in motion, sun, moon, seedtime, harvest, etc., have remained the same.  Other things did not.  They were cursed from that fateful day, including man.  Other things got perverted along the way because of man's continuing sinning, Idol worship, and changing the natural order of things.  Creation is finite, and was begun with a fine balance. Everything God made was good.  Man corrupted it, and still is.  Some insects and animals have no definitive parts of male or female, or have both.  They could not be gay if they wanted.  Maybe something God gave them to make sure a fragile species doesn't go extinct or something.  I really don't know.  I know worms are both sexes. However, God made man Male and Female.

I read somewhere that some species can change their sex if the only other partner available was their own sex. They can change their sex from male to female, or visa versa, for procreation.

There is scripture noting sexual confusion between men and animals (Bible).  There were very strict laws laid down in the Old Testament that seem silly until you study them out, and realize that God was actually protecting us AND His creation of animals from harm.  Remember, there was no reason for these laws before the sin of man.  Man took God's perfection and perverted it....with the help of the enemy.  Man's sin did more than just separate us from God.  Of course you need to believe the Bible to see this......sigh

I will be looking further into this to garner more information......to be continued.

Awww...Annella...you know my views on religion and homosexuality.  I'm just throwing more coals into the fire here.  And, no offense taken.   

[Annella]

Homosexual behavior is contrary to nature?  Explain this:  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html


Thinking about it in a different light, since this post

Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?

How long is the human race going to last with all this reproducin' heteros are doing all over the place?  Purely speculation here...but, (A) sex is pleasurable and (B) even animals have sex for pleasure alone, then wouldn't it be logical to believe that maybe there is a purpose for homosexuality?  If humankind keeps reproducing at current rates, then we are going to overpopulate ourselves worse than we are now...think of all the starving people not being able to lift their arms in the air because there just isn't any darn room to do so.  Maybe nature knows something we don't...or something we just don't want to accept.  Just a possibility here...

So now we're like the animals?  Or should say well, the animals are doing it, it must be okay for us to also?

While I understand some on here look to scientific research as their God (don't take offense Amy), it's marred in so many areas.  We've had countless threads on this.  

Animals are living in the same world as we.  A sinful state of man that dates back to Adam and Eve.  God cursed many things.  NOTHING is "good" like when He first made it.  After the fall of man, everything that was set in motion, sun, moon, seedtime, harvest, etc., have remained the same.  Other things did not.  They were cursed from that fateful day, including man.  Other things got perverted along the way because of man's continuing sinning, Idol worship, and changing the natural order of things.  Creation is finite, and was begun with a fine balance. Everything God made was good.  Man corrupted it, and still is.  Some insects and animals have no definitive parts of male or female, or have both.  They could not be gay if they wanted.  Maybe something God gave them to make sure a fragile species doesn't go extinct or something.  I really don't know.  I know worms are both sexes. However, God made man Male and Female.

I read somewhere that some species can change their sex if the only other partner available was their own sex. They can change their sex from male to female, or visa versa, for procreation.

There is scripture noting sexual confusion between men and animals (Bible).  There were very strict laws laid down in the Old Testament that seem silly until you study them out, and realize that God was actually protecting us AND His creation of animals from harm.  Remember, there was no reason for these laws before the sin of man.  Man took God's perfection and perverted it....with the help of the enemy.  Man's sin did more than just separate us from God.  Of course you need to believe the Bible to see this......sigh

I will be looking further into this to garner more information......to be continued.

Awww...Annella...you know my views on religion and homosexuality.  I'm just throwing more coals into the fire here.  And, no offense taken.    

I'm tired and on Philippine's time.  Jet lag is the worse part of my job.  I'm leaving in another week, but for a somewhat closer gig (Canada), for a 2 week seminar.  Hope I'm feeling better then.  Takes me sometimes a lot longer time to recover from jet lag than most people, and don't know why.  I'll be able to access FC from there for sure.

On a lighter note:  I LOVE Jewish worship music.  It's so hauntingly beautiful.