Religion and Homosexuality

[jordandog]

How is that the same argument as free will...free will requires a choice. No one chooses to be genetically different? I just happen to believe that being gay is not a genetic thing.

Wow, did you even read my post?! I included the words/concept of 'free will', but the focus was on your statement that god makes people this way. I said:"there is a very strong implication that he would then be able to micromanage every single human behaviour, including the 'free will' argument.
I gave you fairly precise examples of how a human's [supposed] 'free will' could be taken away and our behaviours changed in order to prevent all the things you said he caused. I am astounded right now....

 

[Annella]

Since I don't believe in the accuracy of any religious works written by man, I don't follow any true form of religion.  My view is that if you try your best to be a good person (I am an ardent supporter of the "do unto others" rule), then you've done enough.

As such, I don't agree with many religious based viewpoints (such as homosexuality or evolution).

My take on it is this:  I am heterosexual.  I am attracted to males (one in particular).  I have no urge (mentally, emotionally, physically) to be attracted to females whatsoever.  It comes naturally to me, and I understand this.  Further, other people that know this about me understand and accept it; they don't accuse me of choosing it, and it's not considered wrong.  

Why then, would someone who is homosexual not be following the same basic rules (I.E. it comes naturally to them).  Why is it not accepted that they simply are attracted to their own gender, instead of a different one?  If you are not homosexual, how can you say you KNOW that it does not come naturally to them?  How can you say you KNOW they are choosing it of their own free will, rather than be affected naturally like any heterosexual would?

Since I am heterosexual and cannot change it or control it, I will not ask a homosexual to change or control it.

That's just my opinion.

*note: when I say "you", I mean anyone.  I am not referring to any specific person.  This is an excellent debate, with many well-thought out posts.  

Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.  

You state you don't believe in the Bible.  Herein lies the difference....some do.  You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do.  Everyones choice.

[animikokala]

Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.  

You state you don't believe in the Bible.  Herein lies the difference....some do.  You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do.  Everyones choice.

Exactly.  Which is why I stated it was my opinion, and not the ONLY answer.   

I respect another person's right to believe it is wrong, while explaining why I believe it is not wrong.

[jordandog]

Mackenzie, your right.  Being gay is not genetic.  It's a lifestyle choice.  I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.

That and every word below it, I won't even quote the rest of it, make me physically ill. Being gay is EVIL?! I can't imagine how many people you have offended. Please do not ever call yourself a loving christian again, NOT with those words behind it - I will never forget I saw that post. You have, in less than 100 words, made YOURSELF the embodiment and a part of every christian concept and belief that is abhorrent. At least we know your true feelings now though.

[Annella]

Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.  

You state you don't believe in the Bible.  Herein lies the difference....some do.  You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do.  Everyones choice.

Exactly.  Which is why I stated it was my opinion, and not the ONLY answer.   

I respect another person's right to believe it is wrong, while explaining why I believe it is not wrong.

Gotcha....back at ya  

[walksalone11]

Since I don't believe in the accuracy of any religious works written by man, I don't follow any true form of religion.  My view is that if you try your best to be a good person (I am an ardent supporter of the "do unto others" rule), then you've done enough.

As such, I don't agree with many religious based viewpoints (such as homosexuality or evolution).

My take on it is this:  I am heterosexual.  I am attracted to males (one in particular).  I have no urge (mentally, emotionally, physically) to be attracted to females whatsoever.  It comes naturally to me, and I understand this.  Further, other people that know this about me understand and accept it; they don't accuse me of choosing it, and it's not considered wrong.  

Why then, would someone who is homosexual not be following the same basic rules (I.E. it comes naturally to them).  Why is it not accepted that they simply are attracted to their own gender, instead of a different one?  If you are not homosexual, how can you say you KNOW that it does not come naturally to them?  How can you say you KNOW they are choosing it of their own free will, rather than be affected naturally like any heterosexual would?

Since I am heterosexual and cannot change it or control it, I will not ask a homosexual to change or control it.

That's just my opinion.

*note: when I say "you", I mean anyone.  I am not referring to any specific person.  This is an excellent debate, with many well-thought out posts.  

Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.  

You state you don't believe in the Bible.  Herein lies the difference....some do.  You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do.  Everyones choice.

really???

If we are to take our que from the example that Christians have set for the last 500+ years on this continent, then anyone who does not believe as you do, and can not force you to adopt there beliefs, they have every right, judging by Christian example, to try every thing in their power to make you extinct.

Now do I subscribe to this airheadedness? Absolutely not, Creator made the earth,all of it, for us all, not just Christians, so why not keep all this intolerance for people with different beliefs then you, to your freakin self.

No, noone, should move to another country. Thats just your superior mindset talking. If that was the standard to be adheared to, then all your asses need to get back to rome or where ever your screwed up morals came from, after all, we had it pretty smooth till your predecessors showed up and started trying to shove your ideology down our throats. WE WERE HERE FIRST, its obvious you understand the concept of "my way, or the highway"!!!!!

[SurveyMack10]

How is that the same argument as free will...free will requires a choice. No one chooses to be genetically different? I just happen to believe that being gay is not a genetic thing.

Wow, did you even read my post?! I included the words/concept of 'free will', but the focus was on your statement that god makes people this way. I said:"there is a very strong implication that he would then be able to micromanage every single human behaviour, including the 'free will' argument.
I gave you fairly precise examples of how a human's [supposed] 'free will' could be taken away and our behaviours changed in order to prevent all the things you said he caused. I am astounded right now....

 

Actually I was just asking Marie how she could fathom that God doesn't make retarded, blind, deaf, people...She claims to believe in God but then said he doesn't create them...God creates ALL of us, so I didn't understand her point. He created every single one of us the way we are, at birth. However, that doesn't mean we didn't make choices along the way that change how we turn out. Someone who is born blind didn't make a choice that made them enter the world blind. Someone who decided to pursue someone of the same sex rather than someone of the different sex chose that. I was only addressing the way we are BORN. The immediate things that are apparent at birth. God gave me ten toes, ten fingers, two ears, vision...etc. Others are not born that way, Marie made it sound as if they then were not a work of God and I was addressing her on that...If I am still astounding you and not answering what you want me to answer let me know.

[Annella]

Mackenzie, your right.  Being gay is not genetic.  It's a lifestyle choice.  I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.

That and every word below it, I won't even quote the rest of it, make me physically ill. Being gay is EVIL?! I can't imagine how many people you have offended. Please do not ever call yourself a loving christian again, NOT with those words behind it - I will never forget I saw that post. You have, in less than 100 words, made YOURSELF the embodiment and a part of every christian concept and belief that is abhorrent. At least we know your true feelings now though.

Sin is evil....no matter what it is.  lying, cheating, killing, is sin and the Bible calls sin evil.  I won't soft pedal anything that is sin.....period.  It's not my intent to offend anybody that's gay, but the Word of God calls it sin, and an abomination.  I can do no less, as one day I will have to give account to my God what I believed and taught others.  I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, and will always uphold it.  When Jesus walked the earth, he didn't mince any words about sin.  Neither will I.  I don't want to blur the lines about what I believe.  I don't "shun" gays, but will not accept the lifestyle as common or normal.  I will always vote against it, preach against it, etc. Disagreeing and loving a person are 2 different things.  

I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle.  California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays.  Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.  

I've been quite clear what I've believed in the past.  This is not new.  Amyrouse and I had a very in depth Biblical discussion about this very thing on one of the past threads.  My stand is nothing new.  You saw a chance to jump on my character by twisting my words.  You didn't quote ALL my post.  There was more to what I wrote, but you only took a part of it, and decided to skewer me with it.

I stand by ALL my post, and this one too.  

[jordandog]

Mackenzie, your right.  Being gay is not genetic.  It's a lifestyle choice.  I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.

That and every word below it, I won't even quote the rest of it, make me physically ill. Being gay is EVIL?! I can't imagine how many people you have offended. Please do not ever call yourself a loving christian again, NOT with those words behind it - I will never forget I saw that post. You have, in less than 100 words, made YOURSELF the embodiment and a part of every christian concept and belief that is abhorrent. At least we know your true feelings now though.

Sin is evil....no matter what it is.  lying, cheating, killing, is sin and the Bible calls sin evil.  I won't soft pedal anything that is sin.....period.  It's not my intent to offend anybody that's gay, but the Word of God calls it sin, and an abomination.  I can do no less, as one day I will have to give account to my God what I believed and taught others.  I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, and will always uphold it.  When Jesus walked the earth, he didn't mince any words about sin.  Neither will I.  I don't want to blur the lines about what I believe.  I don't "shun" gays, but will not accept the lifestyle as common or normal.  I will always vote against it, preach against it, etc. Disagreeing and loving a person are 2 different things. 

I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle.  California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays.  Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not. 

I've been quite clear what I've believed in the past.  This is not new.  Amyrouse and I had a very in depth Biblical discussion about this very thing on one of the past threads.  My stand is nothing new.  You saw a chance to jump on my character by twisting my words.  You didn't quote ALL my post.  There was more to what I wrote, but you only took a part of it, and decided to skewer me with it.

I stand by ALL my post, and this one too. 

Oh, bull. I don't need to quote the rest of what you said because it does NOT make any difference, period. I stand by what I said and I have never seen you say to Amy what you did in this thread, if you in fact did, I missed it. Believe me, IF I had seen it, I would have commented on it then also. I didn't quote part to 'skewer' you, get over yourself. I did not twist your words. And I didn't know you were the all knowing authority on gays. I guess I am wasting my time using medicine to try and alleviate suffering in AIDS patients. You can actually 'heal' them. Maybe I should NOT walk out the door after this post and go to work - I'll just tell the ones on my ward to come and see you.

[Annella]

Since I don't believe in the accuracy of any religious works written by man, I don't follow any true form of religion.  My view is that if you try your best to be a good person (I am an ardent supporter of the "do unto others" rule), then you've done enough.

As such, I don't agree with many religious based viewpoints (such as homosexuality or evolution).

My take on it is this:  I am heterosexual.  I am attracted to males (one in particular).  I have no urge (mentally, emotionally, physically) to be attracted to females whatsoever.  It comes naturally to me, and I understand this.  Further, other people that know this about me understand and accept it; they don't accuse me of choosing it, and it's not considered wrong.  

Why then, would someone who is homosexual not be following the same basic rules (I.E. it comes naturally to them).  Why is it not accepted that they simply are attracted to their own gender, instead of a different one?  If you are not homosexual, how can you say you KNOW that it does not come naturally to them?  How can you say you KNOW they are choosing it of their own free will, rather than be affected naturally like any heterosexual would?

Since I am heterosexual and cannot change it or control it, I will not ask a homosexual to change or control it.

That's just my opinion.

*note: when I say "you", I mean anyone.  I am not referring to any specific person.  This is an excellent debate, with many well-thought out posts.  

Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.  

You state you don't believe in the Bible.  Herein lies the difference....some do.  You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do.  Everyones choice.

really???

If we are to take our que from the example that Christians have set for the last 500+ years on this continent, then anyone who does not believe as you do, and can not force you to adopt there beliefs, they have every right, judging by Christian example, to try every thing in their power to make you extinct.

Now do I subscribe to this airheadedness? Absolutely not, Creator made the earth,all of it, for us all, not just Christians, so why not keep all this intolerance for people with different beliefs then you, to your freakin self.

No, noone, should move to another country. Thats just your superior mindset talking. If that was the standard to be adheared to, then all your asses need to get back to rome or where ever your screwed up morals came from, after all, we had it pretty smooth till your predecessors showed up and started trying to shove your ideology down our throats. WE WERE HERE FIRST, its obvious you understand the concept of "my way, or the highway"!!!!!

Okay, I said I wasn't going to post to you anymore, but here it is AGAIN.....One more time!

Rome=Catholism....of which I'm not for the umpteenth time.  I have every right as anyone else on this forum to post what I believe or not.  You certainly do.

You didn't like my saying if you don't like the religious freedom you or others have here, then move to a country where they have none, or change places with a believer who lived in one, and would love anything to live in the US and enjoy the freedom of religion we have?  Where they have to hide underground to worship God, and can't do so openly?  It's got nothing to do with a superior mindset.   I'm talking about the freedoms we take for granted and trample under our feet, thinking nothing about it.

Can you really infer the word "Intolerant" to me........or yourself?

[walksalone11]

Since I don't believe in the accuracy of any religious works written by man, I don't follow any true form of religion.  My view is that if you try your best to be a good person (I am an ardent supporter of the "do unto others" rule), then you've done enough.

As such, I don't agree with many religious based viewpoints (such as homosexuality or evolution).

My take on it is this:  I am heterosexual.  I am attracted to males (one in particular).  I have no urge (mentally, emotionally, physically) to be attracted to females whatsoever.  It comes naturally to me, and I understand this.  Further, other people that know this about me understand and accept it; they don't accuse me of choosing it, and it's not considered wrong.  

Why then, would someone who is homosexual not be following the same basic rules (I.E. it comes naturally to them).  Why is it not accepted that they simply are attracted to their own gender, instead of a different one?  If you are not homosexual, how can you say you KNOW that it does not come naturally to them?  How can you say you KNOW they are choosing it of their own free will, rather than be affected naturally like any heterosexual would?

Since I am heterosexual and cannot change it or control it, I will not ask a homosexual to change or control it.

That's just my opinion.

*note: when I say "you", I mean anyone.  I am not referring to any specific person.  This is an excellent debate, with many well-thought out posts.  

Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.  

You state you don't believe in the Bible.  Herein lies the difference....some do.  You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do.  Everyones choice.

really???

If we are to take our que from the example that Christians have set for the last 500+ years on this continent, then anyone who does not believe as you do, and can not force you to adopt there beliefs, they have every right, judging by Christian example, to try every thing in their power to make you extinct.

Now do I subscribe to this airheadedness? Absolutely not, Creator made the earth,all of it, for us all, not just Christians, so why not keep all this intolerance for people with different beliefs then you, to your freakin self.

No, noone, should move to another country. Thats just your superior mindset talking. If that was the standard to be adheared to, then all your asses need to get back to rome or where ever your screwed up morals came from, after all, we had it pretty smooth till your predecessors showed up and started trying to shove your ideology down our throats. WE WERE HERE FIRST, its obvious you understand the concept of "my way, or the highway"!!!!!

Okay, I said I wasn't going to post to you anymore, but here it is AGAIN.....One more time!

Rome=Catholism....of which I'm not for the umpteenth time.  I have every right as anyone else on this forum to post what I believe or not.  You certainly do.

You didn't like my saying if you don't like the religious freedom you or others have here, then move to a country where they have none, or change places with a believer who lived in one, and would love anything to live in the US and enjoy the freedom of religion we have?  Where they have to hide underground to worship God, and can't do so openly?  It's got nothing to do with a superior mindset.   I'm talking about the freedoms we take for granted and trample under our feet, thinking nothing about it.

Can you really infer the word "Intolerant" to me........or yourself?

Religious freedom? are you seriously that ignorant of fact??? or do you agree with the fact that many many of the original inhabitants of this land are prohibited by federal statutes from possesing some of our spiritual items or in fact participating in some of our traditional spiritual ceremonies???

Yes you......intolerant of others right to any lifestyle they desire, as long as they are not victimizing others by practicing it.

[Annella]

Mackenzie, your right.  Being gay is not genetic.  It's a lifestyle choice.  I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.

That and every word below it, I won't even quote the rest of it, make me physically ill. Being gay is EVIL?! I can't imagine how many people you have offended. Please do not ever call yourself a loving christian again, NOT with those words behind it - I will never forget I saw that post. You have, in less than 100 words, made YOURSELF the embodiment and a part of every christian concept and belief that is abhorrent. At least we know your true feelings now though.

Sin is evil....no matter what it is.  lying, cheating, killing, is sin and the Bible calls sin evil.  I won't soft pedal anything that is sin.....period.  It's not my intent to offend anybody that's gay, but the Word of God calls it sin, and an abomination.  I can do no less, as one day I will have to give account to my God what I believed and taught others.  I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, and will always uphold it.  When Jesus walked the earth, he didn't mince any words about sin.  Neither will I.  I don't want to blur the lines about what I believe.  I don't "shun" gays, but will not accept the lifestyle as common or normal.  I will always vote against it, preach against it, etc. Disagreeing and loving a person are 2 different things. 

I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle.  California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays.  Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not. 

I've been quite clear what I've believed in the past.  This is not new.  Amyrouse and I had a very in depth Biblical discussion about this very thing on one of the past threads.  My stand is nothing new.  You saw a chance to jump on my character by twisting my words.  You didn't quote ALL my post.  There was more to what I wrote, but you only took a part of it, and decided to skewer me with it.

I stand by ALL my post, and this one too. 

Oh, bull. I don't need to quote the rest of what you said because it does NOT make any difference, period. I stand by what I said and I have never seen you say to Amy what you did in this thread, if you in fact did, I missed it. Believe me, IF I had seen it, I would have commented on it then also. I didn't quote part to 'skewer' you, get over yourself. I did not twist your words. And I didn't know you were the all knowing authority on gays. I guess I am wasting my time using medicine to try and alleviate suffering in AIDS patients. You can actually 'heal' them. Maybe I should NOT walk out the door after this post and go to work - I'll just tell the ones on my ward to come and see you.

Your talking apples and oranges here, and make no sense.  I think you need to get over yourself.  Since when did I make any inference to your work with gays?  You most definitely twisted my words, and still are.

I live my life by the Word of God.  Period.  Regardless of difference of opinion by anybody.  If you do not, then we are in disagreement.....simple as that.  That's what is really bothering you isn't it?  The fact that I'm straight forward about my beliefs, and how I line them up with the Word of God.  Get over it, it's not changing....not on this side anyhow.

As far as the thread with me and Amy, you were posting in that thread yourself, so you had to have read what was being said, and my in depth postings on the subject.  What you did not like is me calling it a sin just like any other sin.  People don't like their sins exposed.  However, when they are exposed and realized, then the forgiveness and healing can begin.  

[Falconer02]

I'll sum up this whole thing from the circles I see this thread going in----

Religion- Being gay is a sin. God said so but never personally told me or anyone I know. I read the rules from an old book. We were meant to spread our seed and populate the earth. It's gross. It's a lifestyle despite me not knowing many gays personally.

Free thinker- Being gay is abnormal, but it's not a bad thing. It is part of the natural world and seen throughout vast amounts of species. It is estimated that 5% of humans are gay and that statistic has remained around that throughout history. The sexual acts have potential of spreading disease but it is hilariously naive to say that it is only seen in the gay population. Overpopulation is already a major problem throughout the world and having same-sex couples not having kids or adopting them is a good way to mildly help population control. Anyone who has any close gay friends usually know that it was never their friends choice to be attracted to the same sex. Most noticed the attraction when they hit purberty.

My opinion? Hot lesbian sex + religious man thinking homosexuality is bad = gay hypocrite.

[walksalone11]

I am probably as spiritual, if not more so, then anyone on this board, and according to my beliefs, homosexuality is no sin, and in fact, "two spirits' are greatly honored and admired.
This is due to our belief that they have a closer aamd stronger connection to our spiritual realm.

Intolerant people, who look down their noses at anyone who doesnt have identical spiritual beliefs as they do are simply superioristic self absorbed egotistical assholes.

[SurveyMack10]

There's a big difference in disagreeing with a lifestyle and condemning it. I don't agree with gays, doesn't mean if I see them in the street I'm going to discriminate against them or treat them differently at all. I think that's the point Annella is trying to make. Believing it is wrong is totally different than showing hate instead of love.