Atheistic Evolutionists, Logic, and Faith

[queenofnines]

Even if it means denying something a creationist says and blowing it off as pseudoscience instead of taking it into true consideration.

I take what you guys post into consideration.  I will freely admit that when rwdeese mentioned the statistics on some gays having 100s of partners in another thread, for example, I could see how people look at it as a harmful lifestyle.  One of my cousins has turned out to be gay and posts dozens of pictures of himself partying crazy-hard on his Facebook, like is stereotypical of some homosexuals.  And yet he still wears a cross necklace in these pictures.  

If you diligently search creation websites you will find several verifiable scientific claims that put evolution into serious question.

Of course you will.  They have a very strong motivation for grasping at every gap in the theory that they can find because if they don't try to fight evolution, science can show there is no Christian god.  What you may not realize is these sites keep plenty of information on them that is flat-out wrong or has been disproven years ago.

Religion is not off limits to truth seeking. There are Christian scientists out there. And what you are calling "irresistable evidence" I call "questionable evidence".

Then why do some theists - like Kenneth Miller - actively defend evolution?

strong atheism states that there is no god

The vast majority of atheists are not strong atheists.  Most are agnostic-atheists.  Why?  Because we're not that damn cocky to say we've traveled the entire universe and *know* there is NO god!

observational evidence indicates that the universe has a cause that cannot be detected observationally...contradicting the tenet that all beliefs should be based upon observational evidence.

Uh, well no one was around 14.5 billion years ago, this is true.  But this does not mean scientists cannot observe evidence for/understand/reproduce our origins!  What do you think the Large Hadron Collider is for (to name just one example)?

I genuinely felt that I wanted to know the truth.

This is good.  This is the first step.

I can't say for sure that I can unbiasedly psychoanalyze myself to say that that statement isn't true about me. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't....but is it true about you?

The thing is, the reasons for my (and many others') disbelief are literally in the hundreds...I can't easily send you a package of my brain containing all of the reasons that I'm confident that I'm finally on the correct side of the god debate.  It is an individual thing for a person to come to the realizations that countless non-believers have...we can't force you.  We can only provide some tools, some good resources, some constructive feedback...but at the end of the day, it is up to YOU what conclusion you will draw.

Posting the link to the 11-video series that got deleted in another thread: http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3#p/u/15/12rP8ybp13s  Again, this guy's presentation is very peaceful, very respectful.  

[Falconer02]

I don't see any evidence that God exists - will you help me!

"Sure! Which one are you looking for? We've got a vast selection here to fit any or all of your needs!"

Well Queen has already answered many of the things I was going to say so I'll concentrate on the others.

what you have claimed people of religion do to protect their beliefs. I have found that whatever atheists or skeptics have to do to prove their platform, they will.

Here's the tipper though- the ends justify the means. Skeptics analyze things and find visual and contestable evidence that can be against any and all sides because they don't want it to fit it within what they personally want (EDIT: The idea being studied may disprove something in religion but in many cases this is not the original purpose). Skeptics want to keep the subject at hand open and not have it perfectly defined by personal or biased ideas-- contesting the world being flat. The whole history of that ordeal is a perfectly good example. Christianity, and other major religions, do nothing more than work around that skeptical idea to make it fit in with what their holy text says once that idea has been proven. Skeptics try to keep the box open whereas religion tries keeping the box shut with their old predetermined ideas. This is a major reason why I'm agnostic. There is nothing wrong with skepticism in matters like this. Religion (in most cases) will tell you otherwise.

Even if it means denying something a creationist says and blowing it off as pseudoscience instead of taking it into true consideration.  To actually consider that they could be wrong??

I've been on both sides though. The creationism side for most of my life. I've done my research on many of the matters brought up in the forum. At one point in my life, I wanted to be 100% right about creationism so I contested it. I sided with it rather than actually looking hard at the ideas of both sides. And once I unfolded my arms and looked at the real world, I looked back and wondered why I wasted my time with blatant and obvious pseudoscience.

Now evolution has had some MAJOR faults. Especially when it was first discovered. But, like my 2nd paragraph says, it is indefinately perfectable. The false ideas were thrown away. And now many of the ideas found in evolution are to the point now where if you deny them, it's like denying the world is an oblate spheroid. That's why liljp was saying those things earlier about seeing a chimp give birth to a human.

Evolution enables this belief because if evolution is a lie then how do you explain creation? You can't, there is no third option...without evolution no atheist or skeptic has a leg to stand on.

Well that's correct. If evolution were false, you would be back to square one. There's nothing wrong with that. Try testing other ideas and see if they hold weight. See what makes sense. Avoid nonsensical things that have already been proven bunk; avoid the opiates of the people. That's what science is all about. The pursuit of knowledge!

you asked my opinion and I answered you as truthfully as I could. Please know I respect you, this reply isn't meant to attack and I'm not trying to debate any further about the specifics of evolution.Much love and thank you for hearing me out  

I don't see any form of attack anywhere in your post. And thank you for being down-to-earth. It's a rarity to see decent religious people open for discussion and debate on this forum without suddenly going postal. Simply put, you rawk.

[shernajwine]

Simply put, you rawk.

thanks, now you made me blush lol

[Annella]

RW your a mess!!  LOL LOL LOL LOL

[ro901]

To the athiests, maybe you can live your life without belief in anything at all but your own accidental existence. Maybe you can look at the beauty in the world and enjoy it as a mere accident of nature. What do you say..."oh thank science that I'm alive. Oh thank you science for the beautiful flower and the river and the sky and for my sweet little dog...or maybe you say 'Wow, how wonderful of me to imagine this beautiful world into existence...I am so creative and amazing! I hope everybody enjoys it as much as I do." Maybe your life is just so amazingly smooth and carefree that you don't have any worries at all and you figure that anybody who has any worries has only themselves to blame and it's just too bad their prayers are all in vain as they have no hope for ever overcoming their troubles.
I already know that you blame religion for every evil thing that has ever happened in the world and that you think doing away with religion will fix all the wrong in the world, all the wars will stop if people only give up their belief in God. The thing about that is that the god that is at the root of all the wars is MONEY and GREED for POWER, POSSESSION, CONTROL. You can wipe out every religion there is and you will still have these things ruling this world. You will still have wars and murder and hate from the havenots for the haves. Do you think that atheism can get rid of these things?
There are many people, at this very moment, who cannot find any reason for going forward another day in their life and only their belief, hope, prayer is keeping them moving forward to another breath, another day, one more try, one more job interview, one more corner, just one more day ....
whether they believe in Jesus, Buddha, Allah, or Jack In The Box, that belief system gives them strength to go forward in the darkness. I see nothing wrong with that. Do you have something better to offer to someone who is hopelessly suffering? What can you say to them? Perhaps you say, 'Just hang on, maybe you'll get lucky!"

[queenofnines]

To the athiests, maybe you can live your life without belief in anything at all but your own accidental existence.

I don't have to "believe" in my existence...?  I iz here, lol.  And like the TRILLIONS of people who will NEVER be born, I'd have no choice but to be fine with my not being here.

For the record, I "believe" in things that are demonstrably true.

Maybe you can look at the beauty in the world and enjoy it as a mere accident of nature.

Yep.  And it is so much more amazing when we can show that it was made without a god!

What do you say..."oh thank science that I'm alive.

Why would I thank science?  Why would I thank ANYONE?  Don't get me wrong; I enjoy being alive, but I really had no choice in the matter.  I am here because the conditions existed FOR me to be here.  Had they been slightly altered, my brother or sister would be here in my place.  

Oh thank you science for the beautiful flower and the river and the sky and for my sweet little dog...

Um, science is a way of studying things, not an actual entity like you are describing it.

or maybe you say 'Wow, how wonderful of me to imagine this beautiful world into existence...I am so creative and amazing!

Say what?  Yes, there are a few loons in this world that think existence is all in their heads.  I am not one of them.  

Maybe your life is just so amazingly smooth and carefree that you don't have any worries at all and you figure that anybody who has any worries has only themselves to blame and it's just too bad their prayers are all in vain as they have no hope for ever overcoming their troubles.

No one's life is "just so amazingly smooth and carefree".  In most cases, life IS what you make of it, though.  You can waste it away sweating about all the small sh*t or grab it by the horns and LIVE IT.

As for people's problems?  Sorry, but in most cases it IS their fault.  Their prayers ARE in vain; however, hope DOES exist in them taking ACTION for themselves.

I already know that you blame religion for every evil thing that has ever happened in the world

No we don't.

you think doing away with religion will fix all the wrong in the world

No we don't.  What is up with people and this "all or nothing" language?!  It's nuts!  But to address the statement, OF COURSE lessening religion's impact would better the world.

An Alternative to Religion? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUWI0Dmq3X8&videos=hupthFN5H8c

You can wipe out every religion there is and you will still have these things ruling this world. You will still have wars and murder and hate from the havenots for the haves. Do you think that atheism can get rid of these things?

I agree we would still have bad stuff.  However, the justifications for a lot of evil that people do would no longer exist (like the Catholic church LYING to people in Africa about condom use spreading AIDS).

There are many people, at this very moment, who cannot find any reason for going forward another day in their life and only their belief, hope, prayer is keeping them moving forward to another breath, another day, one more try, one more job interview, one more corner, just one more day ....
whether they believe in Jesus, Buddha, Allah, or Jack In The Box, that belief system gives them strength to go forward in the darkness. I see nothing wrong with that. Do you have something better to offer to someone who is hopelessly suffering? What can you say to them? Perhaps you say, 'Just hang on, maybe you'll get lucky!"

And that's really unfortunate that they think their one and only life sucks THAT much.  I'd advise them to analyze what's making them unhappy, re-assess their priorities, and brainstorm some *REAL SOLUTIONS* on how they could get out of their hole.  Carrying around an invisible security blanket isn't going to do a damn thing to rid them of their problems, it's only going to "cover up" some of the pain.

[queenofnines]

Ignore atheists if you have a problem with their way of thinking.

Because that's a great way of going through life!  Ignore those who challenge you!!   

it just means that they never had an encounter with him and/or God never revealed himself to them.

Wrong.

Atheists or any person to 100% for sure say there is or isn't a God would be an idiot.

And that's a very idiotic way to phrase it.  "Atheists or"?  Seriously, marie, try to THINK before you type.  Atheists don't claim there's no god; it's a lack of belief in god(s).  BIG difference.

Also if you can't kick God then who do you kick? His creations.

Another childish retort masked as an argument.  We're not trying to kick anyone.

When people know there is no Hell, you can get away with all kinds of stuff so long as people don't see you.

     Yeah, because as a belief in god disappears, so will our cops, laws, and prisons!       You people who need a god to be good should be ASHAMED.

Humans would become what they truely are without a God! ANIMALS

I really want to know why people are so-freaking-offended by being classified as an animal?? ('Cause YOU ARE)  Can anyone help me out here and answer this???

[ancmetro]

          I believe in evolution...with or with out God or Mother Nature intervention. Think about when you were born and your early stages of life and the way and form you are now. How much have you changed? Everything changes...evolves!

[ro901]

To the athiests, maybe you can live your life without belief in anything at all but your own accidental existence.

I don't have to "believe" in my existence...?  I iz here, lol.  And like the TRILLIONS of people who will NEVER be born, I'd have no choice but to be fine with my not being here.

For the record, I "believe" in things that are demonstrably true.

Maybe you can look at the beauty in the world and enjoy it as a mere accident of nature.

Yep.  And it is so much more amazing when we can show that it was made without a god!

What do you say..."oh thank science that I'm alive.

Why would I thank science?  Why would I thank ANYONE?  Don't get me wrong; I enjoy being alive, but I really had no choice in the matter.  I am here because the conditions existed FOR me to be here.  Had they been slightly altered, my brother or sister would be here in my place.   

Oh thank you science for the beautiful flower and the river and the sky and for my sweet little dog...

Um, science is a way of studying things, not an actual entity like you are describing it.

or maybe you say 'Wow, how wonderful of me to imagine this beautiful world into existence...I am so creative and amazing!

Say what?  Yes, there are a few loons in this world that think existence is all in their heads.  I am not one of them.   

Maybe your life is just so amazingly smooth and carefree that you don't have any worries at all and you figure that anybody who has any worries has only themselves to blame and it's just too bad their prayers are all in vain as they have no hope for ever overcoming their troubles.

No one's life is "just so amazingly smooth and carefree".  In most cases, life IS what you make of it, though.  You can waste it away sweating about all the small sh*t or grab it by the horns and LIVE IT.

As for people's problems?  Sorry, but in most cases it IS their fault.  Their prayers ARE in vain; however, hope DOES exist in them taking ACTION for themselves.

I already know that you blame religion for every evil thing that has ever happened in the world

No we don't.

you think doing away with religion will fix all the wrong in the world

No we don't.  What is up with people and this "all or nothing" language?!  It's nuts!  But to address the statement, OF COURSE lessening religion's impact would better the world.

An Alternative to Religion? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUWI0Dmq3X8&videos=hupthFN5H8c

You can wipe out every religion there is and you will still have these things ruling this world. You will still have wars and murder and hate from the havenots for the haves. Do you think that atheism can get rid of these things?

I agree we would still have bad stuff.  However, the justifications for a lot of evil that people do would no longer exist (like the Catholic church LYING to people in Africa about condom use spreading AIDS).

There are many people, at this very moment, who cannot find any reason for going forward another day in their life and only their belief, hope, prayer is keeping them moving forward to another breath, another day, one more try, one more job interview, one more corner, just one more day ....
whether they believe in Jesus, Buddha, Allah, or Jack In The Box, that belief system gives them strength to go forward in the darkness. I see nothing wrong with that. Do you have something better to offer to someone who is hopelessly suffering? What can you say to them? Perhaps you say, 'Just hang on, maybe you'll get lucky!"

And that's really unfortunate that they think their one and only life sucks THAT much.  I'd advise them to analyze what's making them unhappy, re-assess their priorities, and brainstorm some *REAL SOLUTIONS* on how they could get out of their hole.  Carrying around an invisible security blanket isn't going to do a damn thing to rid them of their problems, it's only going to "cover up" some of the pain.

I really wouldn't expect you to thank anybody or anything because you have not the slightest grain of gratitude in you.

[queenofnines]

I really wouldn't expect you to thank anybody or anything because you have not the slightest grain of gratitude in you.

Why should anyone take this statement seriously?  It is coming from a person who has screamed "get back in the closet, fags!" on this forum.  I have a lot more reason to judge you than you do of me.

[ro901]

I really wouldn't expect you to thank anybody or anything because you have not the slightest grain of gratitude in you.

Why should anyone take this statement seriously?  It is coming from a person who has screamed "get back in the closet, fags!" on this forum.  I have a lot more reason to judge you than you do of me.

Of course, you would have to state something completely out of context since addressing my statement directly would mean that you had something to be grateful for and someone or somebody to be grateful to but of course, you don't.

[queenofnines]

Of course, you would have to state something completely out of context since addressing my statement directly would mean that you had something to be grateful for and someone or somebody to be grateful to but of course, you don't.

I'll address you directly then.  It's pretty sad when people on forums act like they have someone else completely figured out and make judgment calls on someone they've never met.  It's obvious that your inappropriate statement about me was in direct response to you feeling perturbed by what I wrote about people needing a god security blanket. 

I'm plenty grateful; perhaps you should take a step back and assess why you feel the need to criticize strangers on the Internet out-of-the-blue.

[ro901]

Of course, you would have to state something completely out of context since addressing my statement directly would mean that you had something to be grateful for and someone or somebody to be grateful to but of course, you don't.

I'll address you directly then.  It's pretty sad when people on forums act like they have someone else completely figured out and make judgment calls on someone they've never met.  It's obvious that your inappropriate statement about me was in direct response to you feeling perturbed by what I wrote about people needing a god security blanket. 

I'm plenty grateful; perhaps you should take a step back and assess why you feel the need to criticize strangers on the Internet out-of-the-blue.

Oh please! Who are you talking about? Yourself again? Exactly your very own behavior throughout all your posts...every one of them. What do you have to be grateful for and who are you grateful to?

[ro901]

Here is a quote for you from an atheist....not my words but I think applicable to this thread.
bernie from Planck's Constant on February 15, 2009 at 8:17 am
I am an Atheist but I ado gree that too many Atheists are no different than say, Muslims who believe that they are the only ones with the correct view of the universe.

I see no problem with other religions as long as there is no agenda to forcibly convert me to their point of view.

Too many anti-Christian Liberals have either forgotten or never learned where many of the concepts of tolerance and respect for human rights and dignity which they supposedly hold as virtues come from.

[queenofnines]

Too many anti-Christian Liberals have either forgotten or never learned where many of the concepts of tolerance and respect for human rights and dignity which they supposedly hold as virtues come from.

And to that I say this is *just* a forum; persons or statements within it are not necessarily 100% how they would be offline.  A reader doesn't know the user's full background, tone, motives, etc. for writing whatever they did.  Try not to take it too personally.