The Faith of Atheism

[queenofnines]

In fact, it is because of "feelings" more than facts that atheists exist at all. You see, it feels good to do all those things that those of faith say are wrong.

Don't include the word fact in front of something that is your opinion.  Most atheists used to be believers, and most left after they woke up and started using their brains, NOT because they wanted to run around and "sin".  The problem with your god's morals is that they label so many things as "bad" that are entirely victimless crimes.  There's no rationale behind it, it's just wrong because your god says it's wrong.  This is a problem when you consider something like homosexuality, which isn't a choice and there are no natural/logical arguments against it outside of god, and yet your group hates on and even murders these people just because there are some lines in some Bronze Age book that don't approve of it.  How moral is THAT??

I remember asking one atheist in a debate this question: "I said if I could proof to you without a shadow of a doubt by empirical evidence that God exists, would you follow Him?" He told me "absolutely not!" That answer is so revealing as to the real motives of most atheists.

You asked the wrong question.  Would we believe in him?  YES.  Would we worship him?  Not if he's the evil character depicted in the Bible or Koran!!  And there you have "our real motives" - a lot of us would rather burn in hell than kiss up to that murdering, unjust tyrant.  Just like someone might rather commit suicide than spend their life as a slave.  Have you read the whole Bible??

The only point I am making is that education, in and of itself, does not mean one is smart or educated!

And I agree!  There are plenty of atheists who didn't go to college/finish college who are highly intelligent.  This is because they're still capable of learning, researching, analyzing things on their own rather than being forced to do so at college.  Certainly those who find themselves obtaining a broader knowledge of biology, physics, cosmology can have it go in one ear and out the other at college...college is just one route to intelligence for those who may not have stumbled across certain key bits of information on their own.

Actually, I had a specific encounter with God. I did not begin to follow Him based upon a fear or knowledge.

Well, you didn't really answer the question...what specific needs does a god belief satisfy in your life?  What would it mean to you if you were wrong and it was really just all in your head?  Have you ever dared to examine the other side (that religion is a man-made comfort for the masses?).

[rwdeese]

RW: In fact, it is because of "feelings" more than facts that atheist exist at all. You see, it feels good to do all those things that those of faith say are wrong.

Don't include the word fact in front of something that is your opinion

Good point! I will give you that one.

Most atheists used to be believers, and most left after they woke up and started using their brains

I do not know if one can prove this as well. There are certainly a number of atheists that were believers, this is true. My personal experience is that those I have encountered chose not to believe, not based upon any empirical evidence (for most haven't delved into any Christian apologetics - that is what an intellectual honest person would have done before making that decision - they have merely concluded [some out of bitterness toward God - at least the ones I have met], and others because they desired to have the "freedom" to do what they felt restraint from doing before).

NOT because they wanted to run around and "sin".

I have yet to meet any atheist who actually looked empirically at the evidences for Christianity, and God, and the arguments against those evidences, and then made a decision based upon this research. In fact, I have found just the opposite. Atheists decide to be atheists then they go and research the arguments against God to justify their emotive decisions. I am not saying all atheists are like this... I am merely saying that the ones I have personally spoken to are like this!

The problem with your god's morals is that they label so many things as "bad" that are entirely victimless crimes

The problem with you judging His definitions is that it makes you the God. You obviously know better, and have created your own set of morals. How do you know what you have created is right or wrong? Do you toss a coin?

There's no rationale behind it, it's just wrong because your god says it's wrong.

Is this really a true statement, or is it a statement that demonstrates ignorance of the facts.

This is a problem when you consider something like homosexuality, which isn't a choice and there are no natural/logical arguments against it outside of god, and yet your group hates on and even murders these people just because there are some lines in some Bronze Age book that don't approve of it.  How moral is THAT??

First of all it should be clearly noted that there isn't ANY evidence whatsoever that homosexuality is a choice. This is your personal opinion, but is not based upon solid research!

Second, there are a truckload of natural arguments against it outside of God. The diseases that are passed merely by the germ cesspools created through rectal sex, fecal ingestion, and golden showers places people at unnecessary medical risk. Not only does this unnatural act help to spread HIV, it also helps to spread hepatitis B, syphilis, and a host of other blood-borne diseases. 70% to 78% (depending upon which study you read) of gays reported having had a sexually transmitted disease. The proportion of intestinal parasites, such as worms, flukes, and nasty amebas, have been reported as high as 59% with homosexuals. This doesn't even include those who also contracted hepatitis A and B. Do you know that the median death for gays is 39 years of age. The median death of married men is 75. Since God created man, He knows what keeps them healthy. The homosexual lifestyle is actually a "death style!" Those who really care for people will do everything in their power to prevent these people from harming each other. Homosexuals are sexually troubled people engaging in dangerous activities. True love will encourage people to avoid this destructive way of life.

Third, there may be those who "hate" homosexuals who claim to be Christian, but I for one, love them like anyone else. I see their lifestyle as wrong as I would see someone wrong who commits adultery.

God's law against this activity is based upon His knowledge of His creation. He knew how destructive it is to each on who practices it. The death penalty under the Old Covenant was actually an act of mercy. The suffering and passing of misery that comes from the homosexual lifestyle hurts more people than the death of one individual.

RW: I remember asking one atheist in a debate this question: "I said if I could proof to you without a shadow of a doubt by empirical evidence that God exists, would you follow Him?" He told me "absolutely not!" That answer is so revealing as to the real motives of most atheists.

You asked the wrong question.  Would we believe in him?  YES.  Would we worship him?  Not if he's the evil character depicted in the Bible or Koran!!

All this really suggests is that you have defined your morals and actually believe that your definitions of morality are the correct ones. The natural result of this is placing your faith in your own reason - or self, to be more exact! Just because you disagree with what is written in the Bible does not make it a higher morality.

And there you have "our real motives" - a lot of us would rather burn in hell than kiss up to that murdering, unjust tyrant.  Just like someone might rather commit suicide than spend their life as a slave.  Have you read the whole Bible??

So, if I understand your motives, it boils down to creating your own morality, and rebelling against the morality of another. Why? Because "our" morality is the correct one! How do you know? Because "we" have defined it and declared it so. Therefore, you have placed your faith in your own reason, or self. In essence then, you have become your own God!

I can't help but notice how you have defined what the God of the Bible did as murder or injustice. Creating your own morality - this is what I am speaking of. Atheists are atheists in order to create their own morality. In this case, it is a more objective morality as opposed to a subjective morality. None the less, it is still one of the foundational reasons for atheism!

Yes, I have read the entire Bible many times.

RW: The only point I am making is that education, in and of itself, does not mean one is smart or educated!

And I agree!  There are plenty of atheists who didn't go to college/finish college who are highly intelligent.  This is because they're still capable of learning, researching, analyzing things on their own rather than being forced to do so at college.  Certainly those who find themselves obtaining a broader knowledge of biology, physics, cosmology can have it go in one ear and out the other at college...college is just one route to intelligence for those who may not have stumbled across certain key bits of information on their own.

I do not agree that college is a route to acquire intelligence, but one can certainly receive a lot of knowledge - even if some of it is not objective knowledge, but selective knowledge.

RW: Actually, I had a specific encounter with God. I did not begin to follow Him based upon a fear or knowledge.

Well, you didn't really answer the question...what specific needs does a god belief satisfy in your life?

I was asked point blank if I wanted to know God. So, my need was centered on a need for relationship. I was then challenged. If I really desired to enter into a vital relationship with God I needed to repent of my sins. When I did, bam - it was as if I entered into the throne room of God. From that point on He began to talk to me, direct me, give me visions, answer prayers, perform miracles, etc... I found that for the first time in my life I had an unquenchable desire to read the Bible.

What would it mean to you if you were wrong and it was really just all in your head?

To deny the existence of God now would be to deny my own existence. It would be like denying the experience the day the twin towers collapsed. You must understand - I am not a convert because of information, or fear, or escapism - I met God, and I still meet Him in profound ways. He still talks to me. He still performs miracles. The Bible is lived out in my life. I experience many of the things the Bible authors write about.

Have you ever dared to examine the other side (that religion is a man-made comfort for the masses?)

The fact of the matter is that most religions are man-made. From my perspective, there are only two religions in the world. One is man centered, and the other is God centered. One is made up by man (like atheism, Buddhism, Taoism, Animism, etc), the other is God centered - Christianity!

[Falconer02]

The problem with you judging His definitions is that it makes you the God. You obviously know better, and have created your own set of morals. How do you know what you have created is right or wrong? Do you toss a coin?

I'm sure she adheres to the same rational laws and rules you do. The same ones that change throughout time depending on the circumstances. Yours just have some hollow feel good sayings and some wacky adventure stories pretending to be some guide to life.

The diseases that are passed merely by the germ cesspools created through rectal sex, fecal ingestion, and golden showers places people at unnecessary medical risk.

Heteros do this stuff too though...don't ask me how I know this. You're leaving out any statistic on the heteros who do these things. And if you're arguing against the spread of diseased and damaged parts, lesbianism is the way to go.

Homosexuals are sexually troubled people engaging in dangerous activities. True love will encourage people to avoid this destructive way of life.

They're troubled because of people with your mindset. Just like you, they can't help who you fall in love with. You are the antagonistic obstacle.

Since God created man, He knows what keeps them healthy.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/washingtonnews/EzekielBread.htm OM NOM NOM

"I said if I could proof to you without a shadow of a doubt by empirical evidence that God exists, would you follow Him?" He told me "absolutely not!" That answer is so revealing as to the real motives of most atheists.

That is not the real motives of most atheists and you are naive for believing this. If they said 'absolutely not', it's probably because they don't want to follow the schizophrenic genocidal child-killing pain-driving close-minded god that you do. Hell! I know I wouldn't!

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

The fact of the matter is that most religions are man-made. From my perspective, there are only two religions in the world. One is man centered, and the other is God centered. One is made up by man (like atheism, Buddhism, Taoism, Animism, etc), the other is God centered - Christianity!

Your perspective seems extremely naive to others. Sorry to burst your bubble. It's completely obvious that christianity is a man-made religion because the basis is just as wacky (if not more) as all the other ones you don't believe in.



And atheism is not a religion. Much like if you have a hobby of collecting stamps, and your friend does not collect stamps, it does not mean he has a hobby of not collecting stamps. Atheists don't subscribe to the supernatural or rituals found in any religion.

I've skipped around your post because I'm too tired to write more. I'm just going to end with you need to hear the other sides of issues explained better-- you have some massive blinders on and it's obvious you are extremely uneducated with everything but your own beliefs.

[Stefan94]

The basic claim of an atheist is typically, "I lack the belief in a god(s), because there is no evidence yet that justifies such a belief."

Your logic is flawed from the first sentence.  A very small percentage of atheists state there absolutely is not and cannot be a god.  The overwhelming majority of atheists are agnostic atheists -- they recognize we don't have the capability to prove or disprove the existence or nonexistence of deities, but they personally lack the belief in said deities (worth noting that lacking a belief in something is not the same as believing something doesn't exist; you could be an atheist even if it was 100% absolutely true there was a god).

As for "moral accountability," all one has to do is take a look at the US prison system to see how silly it is to make a correlation between good behavior and religious belief (the overwhelming majority of prison inmates in the US proclaim themselves to be religious).  Or you could look at the dozens upon dozens of studies that have attempted to discover a correlation between morality and religious belief -- studies ranging from teen pregnancy, divorce, abortions, young offenders, drug use, you name it -- nope, none come back showing such a correlation (some even show a negative correlation between the two).  There is no correlation between religion and good behavior.

Your argument rests on a relatively unused definition of atheism, as well as on the notion that religious people are more moral than nonreligious people.  One is a shaky foundation to rest logic upon, and the other is blatantly false.

This is exactly how I feel

[rwdeese]

rwdeese---I enjoy your posts!!  

Thank you Sheryl.

[rwdeese]

rwdeese---I enjoy your posts!!  

ditto 

Thank you Sherna

[queenofnines]

My personal experience is that those I have encountered chose not to believe, not based upon any empirical evidence (for most haven't delved into any Christian apologetics - that is what an intellectual honest person would have done before making that decision - they have merely concluded [some out of bitterness toward God - at least the ones I have met]

Well that's unfortunate that you are living in a particular area where the only atheists you encounter don't have very solid reasons for not believing.  That shouldn't be your one and final impression of non-theists though, because your small group certainly does not represent us on the whole.  Good thing we have the Internet to expose you to a much wider pool of freethinkers.

I, for one, am an example of an exception to your impression.  I wasn't raised religiously and couldn't see any evidence for this Jesus character some spoke of in my everyday life, therefore I labeled myself an atheist before I was a Christian.  Because I knew my only reason for not believing in god was a lack of evidence in my daily routine (a very good and obvious reason, but not quite enough definitive ammo), I decided to give god a try in the same nonchalant manner one might decide to take a new route home from work.  I got the warm, gooey, prideful feeling after I did this and soon after had those trippin' hallucinations.  I also found a FUN church which sucked me in quite nicely.  Their sermons were MODERN and seemed to make so much sense, dude!

I have yet to meet any atheist who actually looked empirically at the evidences for Christianity, and God, and the arguments against those evidences, and then made a decision based upon this research. In fact, I have found just the opposite. Atheists decide to be atheists then they go and research the arguments against God to justify their emotive decisions.

Whilst I was in the fold, I was a devoted little believer!  I hit up all of the major fundie websites for scientific "proof" of god, witnessed to others, and even started a book, "There IS a God: Ruminations of a Former Atheist".    I was very shocked the day I confirmed it was all a sham because I had sincerely believed in the Christian god just as much as you do.

You obviously know better, and have created your own set of morals. How do you know what you have created is right or wrong? Do you toss a coin?

It's not just me who knows better.  Are you to say that humanity at large is wrong for ending slavery, for example?  Because your god sure loves it.  Christianity had to be dragged kicking and screaming from the days that ya'll would TORTURE people to get them to convert.  I have no doubt that if your religion could, it would try to get atheists thrown in prison.  Good thing we have a government that is SECULAR and does not stand for that bullsh*t.

Nothing is absolutely "right" or "wrong", but if the goal is what's most ideal for the health and happiness of the most people, we can have certain standards.  I would rather not get killed and you would rather not get killed, so let's agree not to kill each other, k?  That's how society freaking works.  We would collapse and our species wouldn't survive very long if everyone was just running around raping, murdering, and pillaging.  That's not god, that's COMMON SENSE.

First of all it should be clearly noted that there isn't ANY evidence whatsoever that homosexuality is a choice.

Uh, did you mean to say NOT a choice?

The diseases that are passed merely by the germ cesspools created through rectal sex, fecal ingestion, and golden showers places people at unnecessary medical risk.

And I don't deny that, however, these things are not exclusive to homosexuals as I've seen plenty a Christian source that speak fondly of *bleep* sex/other kinky sex acts.

70% to 78% (depending upon which study you read) of gays reported having had a sexually transmitted disease. The proportion of intestinal parasites, such as worms, flukes, and nasty amebas, have been reported as high as 59% with homosexuals. This doesn't even include those who also contracted hepatitis A and B.

This is more of an issue of a person not being smart about WHO they have sex with and HOW they go about it.  If two dudes are STD-free, in a committed relationship, and are careful with their hygiene, clean up, protection, and/or speed of thrusting, it can be perfectly healthy and fine, just like it is perfectly healthy and fine for heteros to go about it in this way if such an act is appealing to them.

Do you know that the median death for gays is 39 years of age.

That is a flat-out lie!  In order for that phony statistic to be true, "one would have to assume wildly pessimistically, given current incidence data, that half the gay male population is destined to catch the AIDS virus and die of it. The actual average age of AIDS patients at death has been about 40.  For the number 43 to be the true average death age for the entire population of gay males, HIV-negative gay men would, on average, have to keel into their graves at 46.  Looked at another way, if even half the gay male population stays HIV-negative and lives to an average age of 75, an average overall life span of 43 implies that gay males with AIDS die at an implausibly early average age (11-years-old, actually)." ~ http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/26857.html

The death penalty under the Old Covenant was actually an act of mercy.

Are the Old Testament gays not burning in hell right now?  You call that "mercy"?!

Just because you disagree with what is written in the Bible does not make it a higher morality.

Of course it does if we're going off of the goal of what's best for the most people.

Of course it doesn't when I think murdering people for bogus reasons is wrong and your god doesn't.  Of course it doesn't when I think a law like forcing a woman to marry her rapist is sick and cruel and your god commands it.  Of course it doesn't when life is nothing but a cosmic joke/test and your god is far worse than all of the infamous dictators combined!

Yes, I have read the entire Bible many times.

You've made peace with the fact that Biblegod is a tyrannical monster then?

To deny the existence of God now would be to deny my own existence.

And for me to believe your Biblegod is real would be like believing the sky is purple, when it is clearly blue.  The world looks and operates exactly like it should if there are no gods.

The Bible is lived out in my life. I experience many of the things the Bible authors write about.

Cool, so have you seen water turned into wine?  Have you seen someone walk on water?  Have you seen five loaves of bread and two fishes feed 5,000 people?  Have you seen someone raised from the dead or cured from a blindness they were born with?  No?  Darn.

[liljp617]

2. Atheism is a feel good religion too.

You just can't get past this can you lol?  Again, what you're saying is NOT collecting stamps is a hobby and baldness is a hairstyle.

Define religion please.

Here's a relatively decent definition, feel free to elaborate on it if you have a more complete definition:

Religion (from Latin religio, "reverence for the gods", "piety", possibly related to religare, "to bind"[1]) is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or more in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

So let's go down the list shall we...

Atheism:

Reverence for god(s) -- Nope, obvious

Belief in and worship of a god(s) -- Nope, precisely the lack there of

Explains the existence of and gives meaning to the universe -- Nope, atheism makes no claims on such subjects, because atheism entails and requires no beliefs; it requires nothing more than the lack of belief in deities.

Devotional and ritual observances -- Nope, I'm unaware of any such observances that are done "in the name of atheism" or "for atheism;" I certainly don't take part in anything "in the name of atheism" and I've been around my fair share of atheists who I don't recall participating either

Moral code -- Nope, atheism is not a moral code.  You'll find many atheists claim themselves to be secular humanists...that's a moral code.  Atheism?  Not at all, it was never meant to be.

We could continue with some other generic aspects...

Dogma -- Nope, the only requirement to be an atheist is that you lack belief in deities.  If the lack of belief in something is dogma, we have some issues to deal with.

Faith -- Nope, faith is only required when an individual makes a positive claim about some entity or occurrence without evidence to back the claim; atheism makes no positive claims about any entity or occurrence, an atheist claims he/she lacks belief in deities; the belief is non-present

Often includes some sacred narrative, be it written or oral -- Obvious nope, there is no book of atheism; no, The God Delusion is not a "book of atheism"

Focuses on an "ultimate truth" -- Nope, you cannot begin to generalize what all atheists believe on the ultimate truth of the universe, because atheism entails no beliefs

This is boring now.  There's really no point in discussing anything with you until you can grasp the ridiculously easy point that atheism is purely the absence of religious belief in regards to deities.  The absence of belief cannot be belief.  The absence of belief requires no faith, it is not a belief.

[tzs]

Also the whole since there were dinosaurs proves there is no God is wrong because God didn't make humans first. He would of had to wipe out his creation of dinosaurs in order to make Adam because they would of ate him.

Wow-She can't talk right!!!!

[tzs]

Also the whole since there were dinosaurs proves there is no God is wrong because God didn't make humans first. He would of had to wipe out his creation of dinosaurs in order to make Adam because they would of ate him.

Wow-She can't talk right!!!!

Complete sentences are a must for communication, marieelissa! You should try it sometime! It's fun!!!!

[tzs]

Complete sentences are a must for communication, marieelissa! You should try it sometime! It's fun!!!!

mmm hmmm like you're so perfect. Learn to use the quote button because it is a must for communication also.

Hey, just as long as you see my words, It doesn't matter how they get there!
By the way-HOW OLD ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

[queenofnines]

Good video with pretty pictures about FAITH, since the word has been abused so much in this thread: http://www.youtube.com/user/FFreeThinker#p/u/175/VWGbmNzb7fE

[shernajwine]

i'm very retarded and proud of it! LOL 

[queenofnines]

i'm very retarded and proud of it! LOL  

Yeah I agree it's not the nicest word for the maker of the vid to use...however if you hear it out, you see where he's coming from.  P.S.  I don't think all Christians are retarded.   

[shernajwine]

well, i'm glad you don't think we are all retarded. and i tried to watch the video objectively, i can see where the speaker is coming from.

i still think my car is blue though