What do you think Heaven and Hell are?

[Stealth3si]

This depiction of Hell as a place that non-Christians go to be punished for all eternity was invented by the Catholic Church to scare people into believing in their religion

If you're saying the idea of God pouring out extra punishment in a place called hell is total misinterpretation, then I can easily show you this is bogus.

Extra punishment, besides oblivion?  Yes, show me how this is "bogus" so I can educate you.

A preface like this makes you come across a bit condescending, don't you think?

"Eternal damnation" is in no way referenced in the bible as anything other than a separation from God

Do you have any scriptural basis for hell being "eternal separation from God"?

Quite a lot, actually.

Basis?

Sounds like anti-scriptural rubbish to me, since there is no verse to indicate hell is eternal separation from God. There are places where they are being described as cast out into outer darkness, but nowhere does this imply a separation from God, as parables never regard the person being cast away from as God. He is cast in a different role in each parable. Indeed, God as host of a wedding supper will be far from them, but that never implies a separation from God. To do so would be to force a parable far beyond its point. Similar language does not indicate one to one correspondence. Parables are not 1 to 1, they are analogy, and only in certain points is their point applicable.

I made it my main point of focus when I first split off from Christianity to begin my true spiritual journey.

If you're purporting to have biblical evidence to suggest God is not in Hell, then I would say it's a myth someone invented, as there are a few passages of scripture that would need to be taken into consideration before one could say, "Hell is eternal separation from God." Like...

Psalm 139:7-8
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

Jeremiah 23:24
24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the Lord.

Proverbs 15:3
3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.

1 Kings 8:27
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built! [Solomon speaking in reference to the Lord's temple]

There are other verses, but the basic premise is this: if I believe that God's presence is not limited, isn't God in hell? If God is "omnipresent", isn't He present in a place of His own creation: hell? If we think about it from a logical standpoint, why give the reprobate, who hate God and want nothing to do with him, what they want. God will be ever present in Hell as he pours out his wrath on the condemned. Yes, God is in hell, pouring His wrath upon the reprobate. We have to be careful about viewing God as some mist, able to inhabit areas spatially, like we are. God is above our concepts of space and time. As there aren't a whole lot of places that an omnipresent god isn't.

The only argument that I think might be able to be made here is the age-old statement, "God cannot be in the presence of sin." Almost as if God is allergic to it or something. I could see that God cannot sin, nor can He tempt others.(James 1:13) I think rather, it should be said that sin cannot be in the presence of God, at least not without consequences.
 

I'll be more than happy to share once my notes are in front of me.

If your notes talk about the Christian salvation and faith, then I'd rather hear how you'd answer these:

1. Why do you not need God (in terms of salvation)?

2. What was the purpose of creating the Earth?

3. What is faith?

I think you'll see I take nothing out of context, so have no fear.

I'm afraid I think I'll have to take your context *bleep* grano salis.

God's presence will be very real to those who are in hell, for He will be pouring out His wrath on those who reside there for all eternity.

Oh I'm gonna have to disabuse you of that notion.

Sheol isn't hell, it is the deep place where the dead go to sleep.

Sheol is the only word used in the bible to reference Hell or the afterlife as anything other than a burning lake of fire.

To a certain degree, I don't disagree.

'Hell' in this context is sheol/hades, the abode of the dead.

Acts 2:31
he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. [referring to Psalm 16]

Romans 10:7
or " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Therefore it says,
"When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men."
9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) [Referring to Psalm 68]

And therefore:

Revelation 1:17-18
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

However, Sheol is not the same as hell in a strict sense. Hell is normatively used to describe the lake of fire which is a place that is described as a place of eternal punishment and not annihilation. The Bible, and especially the NT, teaches that hell, the lake of fire, is a place of eternal punishment. We may not know what that punishment is completely, but Scripture teaches that it is eternal punishment. Any other concept of hell is heresy.

Please don't come in here and claim that Jesus' mentions of "Hell" (Gehenna) was intended as anything other than a metaphor, but even that metaphor was accurate enough.

Are you aware that hell was one of the primary topics of Jesus? Christ talks about it quite a lot and not just by metaphor. He gives a lot of specific statements about hell.

Non-Christians will burn, surely, but not indefinitely. That's just absurd.

I'd love to see you support this statement, which is contrary to 2000 years of church history.

There are people I've heard of who come in and try to put a spin on the scriptures, water it down or change what God says, "They'll probably go to hell for a few thousand years and then once they'll pay their debt and then they'll be free" or "God talks about hell but it's sort of a myth because he wants to scare people into being right. 'Scared Straight.'" or "God talks tough like he's really going to punish people but when it really comes down to it he's gonna say, 'aw com'on. I can't send anybody to hell. Let's all go to heaven.'"

Well, I don't think that's true. Satan, all his demonic creatures and the beast and the false prophets are going to go the lake of fire forever and ever and man who has not received the one way of salvation.

To believe as much is to believe in a God that would burn the children He loves, not just to end them but to torturethem for all eternity! What kind of God is this that you expect the masses to follow?

Non-sequitor. It is not those who are God's sons (children), who suffer torment eternally, it is those who are not sons. God, the Father, does not torture any of His sons.

If we're to compare the love of the Father to an actual biological father only infinitely more profound, then how can you claim with a straight face that this Father would subject us to such a punishment rather than just end it with mercy? If your son left your home and never spoke to you again, would you wish this type of agony on him as a means of eternal punishment?

Strawman. God punishes, or rather, chastises or disciplines, His children, but He does not send them into eternal torment. Those who face eternal torment are those who are not the sons of God.

The God spoken of by Jesus Christ would not allow as much, and frankly, you do him a disservice by attempting to plant that notion into other people's minds.

Ad hominen, and frankly, this is false accusation.

I can back everything I said here with scripture. In fact it would be a pleasure.

You just used a lot of words to say nothing. Do you believe in annihilationism?

[jjwebb232]

You should really talk to my mom about this stuff, she has some interesting theories.  Anyways, the only reason people think "heaven" = "clouds" is because the heavens (space) is up, and in between the heavens and where we stand is clouds.  I don't believe that Heaven is on Clouds, as the Bible says "Streets of Gold" not "Streets made of clouds".  This is a theory that my mom had.  God is not a being, he is a consciousness, that exists in an indefinite form.  In this sense, it kind of makes sense, as how the Bible says he made us in his image, he means spiritual image, not physical image.  The Bible also mentions how someone in heaven could see someone in hell, saying that they are close together.  My mom believes, that Heaven exists on earth, in a spiritual form, and Hell exists below earth (or inside earth).  That I don't believe myself.  I can't tell you where Heaven nor Hell are, but I do believe that they are in the universe, as "the universe contains everything".  On top of that, angels and humans/human spirits are two different things.  Angels existed before humans did, with God, whereas humans existed on earth.  I don't believe that after death, we can necessarily see people on earth, or do anything about it, as angels can.  The same goes for those who go to Hell.

(times like these, I hate having a limited attention span)

Anyways, since I lost my train of thought, that's pretty much what I believe.  I believe that Heaven and Hell exist side-by-side, if they aren't in the same, and that those who die don't become angels, as angels were in heaven already.  I believe that demons, or fallen angels as some might say (as they sided with Satan) can exist on earth, and do harm to people.  I don't believe in a place called purgatory, as there is nothing of this said in the bible.  I DO believe that Christ will return to the world shortly.

For those who are Christian, or those that are interested about Christianity, or those who just feel like watching it

I recommend a Title called "Time Changers"  It's about a Christian man from the time of 1890 is 'transported' in time, and is able to see the world as it is now.  When he returns he tells his friend who sent him forward in time about how it was described in revelations of the end of times.

Anyways, if you want to know more about it, you can check into it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Changer

It was an interesting movie, and I liked it, and thought you would be interested in it, too.

[Stealth3si]

Hell being "in the earth" is an urban legend. The crust of the earth has never even been broken through, not even at the big hole, the Kimberly Mine in South Africa. The mantle is many times thicker than the crust.

And, theories litter the world of Christianity but what does Scripture say? Are the theories you just presented grounded in a more biblical matter or denote a pattern within scripture?

Also, your description of God is Gnosticism. Not Christianity.

As for "Time Changer," I'd seen it when the DVD came out. I liked it too, for a Christian film. www.christiancinema.com is a great place to get movies for the "Christian-minded" person. They distribute movies but they are also the company responsible for Mercy Streets, The Moment After, Lay It Down, Time Changer as well as several others.

[jnjmolly]

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A HELL. You will just not have the chance to meet with GOd, and as far as Heaven goes, I believe you get the greatest gift of all and that is meeting god and having all your dreams come true!!!     

[Stealth3si]

That looks like an incoherent view of an afterlife.

[marcar1008]

All I know is I want to go to HEAVEN - Heard great things about Heaven - I get to meet Jesus   

[garfeild76]

I think "heaven" is a state of mind...and "hell" is my ex...

[xdrummermommyx]

I don't think they exist at all.