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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: marieelissa on January 11, 2011, 12:33:52 pm
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
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keep searching you will find the answers to what every you are looking for :thumbsup:
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God does not put anyone in Hell- His desire is that all follow Him
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This is like some continuing tv drama show. I can't wait to hear what her next belief-of-the-week is.
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True. I'll go grab the popcorn.
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
Marieelissa,
You make it so much fun coming into the forum. I always check to see what you are on about next. You might find the devil in the details, but most likely you will find G_D in your heart. Take care sweetie.
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True. I'll go grab the popcorn.
...And it begins AGAIN!!!!!!!!!! :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:
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Pass the popcorn over here! hogs! lol
Marie, go on....
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Lol... I hope you feel better now... no devil , no hell. Yay!!!
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To create the devil no, to create hell umm NO. To create spirit beings with free will who choose to rebel yes, did man make a way to preserve bodies for the dead maybe.
Unforunately because of the all-knowing trait of God people have a hard time accepting God's gift of free will. Ironically people admit God's all-powerful but you don't see fire coming out of heaven on every verse do you? So why can't God be selective with his foresight.
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To create the devil no, to create hell umm NO. To create spirit beings with free will who choose to rebel yes, did man make a way to preserve bodies for the dead maybe.
To reiterate another thread I posted on- your god does not grant free will. It's an illusion that gets taken down by a basic argument. If he is all-powerful and all-knowing, then ultimately all christians are fatalists-- everything is predestined due to this god. Since he is all-knowing (past, present, future), he has predetermined every action we take. That kills the idea of having free will since he knows what's going to happen and who's going to do what. And he allows for it. Pretty sadistic, huh? The only way to say that we do have free will with this god is to say he is not all-knowing, and therefore isn't all-powerful or perfect.
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There really is no good way to argue God's side other than if you want to believe that there is something after you die than it's all gravy. :thumbsup: People get really into all the little details but I know God can't be perfect because there is a fault with him from the get go...he loves and wanted to give life, talk about imperfections.
But what if we are not even supposed to die? He said He gives everlasting life and that death is the last enemy (to be conquered). So if we are not supposed to die, then what happens to heaven and hell?
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There really is no good way to argue God's side other than if you want to believe that there is something after you die than it's all gravy.
Yep. Just don't go spreading it around and telling people they must believe your own idea. Out of respect.
So if we are not supposed to die, then what happens to heaven and hell?
They disappear into the realms of mythology as so many other belief systems have in the past. It's only a matter of time till today's beliefs are replaced by others or they evolve or adopt into something completely different. Hell, christians today don't even know much about the bible. There are dozens (if not hundreds) of different sects following the same ancient text. Each with their own take on it.
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There really is no good way to argue God's side other than if you want to believe that there is something after you die than it's all gravy. :thumbsup: People get really into all the little details but I know God can't be perfect because there is a fault with him from the get go...he loves and wanted to give life, talk about imperfections.
But what if we are not even supposed to die? He said He gives everlasting life and that death is the last enemy (to be conquered). So if we are not supposed to die, then what happens to heaven and hell?
Are you sure you're not thinking Harry Potter instead? You know, the last enemy that shall be conquered is death? I mean, Dumbledore was wise... :thumbsup:
(I'm just teasing you. Please don't take offense to that.)
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To create the devil no, to create hell umm NO. To create spirit beings with free will who choose to rebel yes, did man make a way to preserve bodies for the dead maybe.
To reiterate another thread I posted on- your god does not grant free will. It's an illusion that gets taken down by a basic argument. If he is all-powerful and all-knowing, then ultimately all christians are fatalists-- everything is predestined due to this god. Since he is all-knowing (past, present, future), he has predetermined every action we take. That kills the idea of having free will since he knows what's going to happen and who's going to do what. And he allows for it. Pretty sadistic, huh? The only way to say that we do have free will with this god is to say he is not all-knowing, and therefore isn't all-powerful or perfect.
Your going on the idea he exercises it all the time. Angels couldn't even stand in a court with God if he was always exercising his power if he's ALWAYS all-powerful.
Also the fact that God asks questions alone disproves that he always uses his foresight.
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Your going on the idea he exercises it all the time.
If he does not, he is imperfect. If you know bad things are going to happen and you could stop it easily, but instead you choose to ignore your foresight, you're either extremely evil or mentally incapable of reasoning. Either way, christians are playing for a dealer with a stacked deck.
Angels couldn't even stand in a court with God if he was always exercising his power if he's ALWAYS all-powerful.
Also the fact that God asks questions alone disproves that he always uses his foresight.
Then this alone proves that your god is not all-powerful and not all-knowing. The attributes discussed here are fallible by basic reasoning.
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Both the Devil and Hell are real.
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For all of you who dont understand us atheists, here is a quote for you:) (Please dont be offended!!!)
"If you live in America, the chances are good that your next door neighbours believe the following: the Inventor of the laws of physics and Programmer of the DNA code decided to enter the uterus of a Jewish virgin, got himself born, then deliberately had himself tortured and executed because he couldn't think of a better way to forgive the theft of an apple, committed at the instigation of a talking snake. As creator of the majestically expanding universe, he not only understands relativistic gravity and quantum mechanics but actually designed them. Yet what he really cares about is "sin," abortin, how often you go to church, and whether gay people should marry."--Richard Dawkins, F.R.S, Oxford.
Once again, not trying to be offensive, but if you can divorce yourself from your own emotion and take a purely rational viewpoint, can you at least get where we are coming from?
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Your belief or disbelief in the very existence of someone or someplace does not make a very strong argument.
Many people believe in the tooth fairy.......the very fact the tooth fairy doesn't exist...does not mean those that believe won't get a coin under their pillow the next day......I think those that want to perpetuate the belief in something will do what they must to create that illusion.....perhaps it is us that are our own devil and we create our own hell....
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I think dell and c2deryke2 deserve medals. I took great interest in both of your posts. And with my history on this forum, that's difficult to do. Thanks.
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Your belief or disbelief in the very existence of someone or someplace does not make a very strong argument.
Not trying to make an argument. I dont have to believe that something doesn't exist if there is not proof of it's existence. "Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence." Christians are telling me that all of this about the snake and the apple is true, but have presented not one whit of actual proof. I am just expected to believe this. My point is, why shouldn't I believe in the tooth fairy? It is no more ridiculous than saying a man is living on a cloud, listening to all the words and thoughts of every human. Just saying...
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Your going on the idea he exercises it all the time.
If he does not, he is imperfect. If you know bad things are going to happen and you could stop it easily, but instead you choose to ignore your foresight, you're either extremely evil or mentally incapable of reasoning. Either way, christians are playing for a dealer with a stacked deck.
Angels couldn't even stand in a court with God if he was always exercising his power if he's ALWAYS all-powerful.
Also the fact that God asks questions alone disproves that he always uses his foresight.
Then this alone proves that your god is not all-powerful and not all-knowing. The attributes discussed here are fallible by basic reasoning.
The sun is the most powerful star in the universe is it always shining? Is it still the most powerful star in the universe when it's not shining. I personally believe the all titles means he's the most high in those areas. For example Almighty means he's the mightiest of the mighty.
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Your going on the idea he exercises it all the time.
If he does not, he is imperfect. If you know bad things are going to happen and you could stop it easily, but instead you choose to ignore your foresight, you're either extremely evil or mentally incapable of reasoning. Either way, christians are playing for a dealer with a stacked deck.
Angels couldn't even stand in a court with God if he was always exercising his power if he's ALWAYS all-powerful.
Also the fact that God asks questions alone disproves that he always uses his foresight.
Then this alone proves that your god is not all-powerful and not all-knowing. The attributes discussed here are fallible by basic reasoning.
The sun is the most powerful star in the universe is it always shining? Is it still the most powerful star in the universe when it's not shining. I personally believe the all titles means he's the most high in those areas. For example Almighty means he's the mightiest of the mighty.
Which sun are you speaking of? The one in the Milky way galaxy? The sun also never stops shining, but it will blow up and become a white dwarf star and will still shine, just very faint.
I was referring to shining on our planet.
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The sun is the most powerful star in the universe is it always shining? Is it still the most powerful star in the universe when it's not shining. I personally believe the all titles means he's the most high in those areas. For example Almighty means he's the mightiest of the mighty.
You're beating around the bush of my point. Don't blur it with odd metaphors.
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The sun is the most powerful star in the universe is it always shining? Is it still the most powerful star in the universe when it's not shining. I personally believe the all titles means he's the most high in those areas. For example Almighty means he's the mightiest of the mighty.
You're beating around the bush of my point. Don't blur it with odd metaphors.
Might make it a better metaphor if the sun really was the most powerful star in the universe. :dontknow:
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For those people who constantly contradict that our God and His Word (Bible) aren't real, think about this. Have you ever thought that if there is no God and no Bible, then why is so much of our country's buildings, monuments, courts, etc. based on that very God you deny? There are the 10 commandments listed in the courts, the president-to-be (or any other kind of swearing in) has to take his/her oath on the Bible, "In God we trust" is on our money, etc. I know a lot of people don't agree with all of this and want to change it or take it out. But the fact is, it is there, and yet people still argue about no God.
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For those people who constantly contradict that our God and His Word (Bible) aren't real, think about this. Have you ever thought that if there is no God and no Bible, then why is so much of our country's buildings, monuments, courts, etc. based on that very God you deny? There are the 10 commandments listed in the courts, the president-to-be (or any other kind of swearing in) has to take his/her oath on the Bible, "In God we trust" is on our money, etc. I know a lot of people don't agree with all of this and want to change it or take it out. But the fact is, it is there, and yet people still argue about no God.
So this is supposed to be proof of a God? This proves that a God exists, that Jesus is the savior, and that the bible is the truth? Because men choose to believe it, just like men choose to believe that female circumcision, genocide, and other henous crimes are ok?
Belief is not enough. Just because someone chose to repeat a falacy doesn't make it any more correct. Oh, and btw, the "In God We Trust" you refer to was added in the 1950s. If we want to know what the US was founded on, let's look at the founding fathers
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." -Thomas Jefferson
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." -John Adams
"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."-Benjamin Fraklin
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." -Thomas Payne
...Just to name a few...
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c2deryke2: Exactly my point. People still deny God even though it's intermingled within many aspects of the United States. You just proved my point.
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c2deryke2: Now, I would like to address your quotes, starting with the one:
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." -John Adams
Quotes are great words for us to heed when it comes from our founding fathers. However, the whole quote needs to be included as to reveal the whole thought of what these people were trying to get across:
"Those hoping to prove the irreligiousness of the Founders have no trouble finding ammunition from Adams. The liberal magazine The Nation and the website www.deism.org both homed in on this comment from Adams: 'Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.' But in typical culture-war behavior, neither the Nation or deism.org included the rest of the quote, in which Adams explained that the negative sentiment soon passed and was replaced by his realization 'Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell.'"
(Founding Faith: Providence, Politics, and the Birth of Religious Freedom in America by Waldman)
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In regards to this quote:
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." -Thomas Jefferson
Here is another quote related to what he was referring to in the above quote:
"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." – Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, (1815. ME 14:283)
To put it in today's language, it was Jefferson's conviction that by nature, people are depraved, immoral and lacking self-control. He therefore believed that the only way that the American style of government could be maintained was to instruct everyone in right and wrong from birth, and train them toward good habits and virtue through disciplinary consequences. Political self-government, he said, requires that citizens be raised to despise dishonesty and embrace personal integrity through instruction and repeated admonitions. Religion and reason, he said, form the basis for our nation's foundations. Thomas Jefferson and the other founders built our nation upon Christian principles and ethics, and warned that America would morally disintegrate if it forsook its "religious" roots. Although such a foundation could not make our nation "Christian," we would be wise to listen to our predecessors and embrace our Creator and the Bible that communicates how to walk in morality and virtue.
SOURCE: America has never been a Christian nation
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The next quote is the one by Benjamin Franklin:
"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."
Franklin abandoned his youthful deism in favor of a strong belief in an interventionist God, as reflected by his prayer request during a troubled period of the Constitutional Convention. In a letter dated March 9, 1790, the last letter Franklin ever wrote, he expressed his strong faith in God and the possibility of heaven:
"Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That he governs it by Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we render to him is doing good to his other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in in this. These I take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and His Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubt as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I need not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble. I see no harm in its being believed, if that belief has the good Consequence, as probably it has, of making his Doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the Unbelievers in his Government of the world with any peculiar Marks of his Displeasure."
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/franklin-stiles.html
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As for Thomas Paine's quote:
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
Thomas Paine questioned a lot about differentations in the Bible, and the inerrancy of the Bible. He was a deist. It also shows us that not all people in government, such as he was back then, believe in God. He made several statements to nonbelief of God. However, there are some other quotes of his that tend to contradict others of his when it came to religion. Here's a couple of those quotes:
"Reputation is what men and women think of us; character is what God and angels know of us."
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man."
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Might make it a better metaphor if the sun really was the most powerful star in the universe.
Take this woman's advice, Teflon! lolololol
People still deny God even though it's intermingled within many aspects of the United States. You just proved my point
"Still don't believe my gods exist? Just look around you! Zues and Aphrodite statues everywhere! Built to honor them! Our culture has truly thrived because of these gods! You cannot deny they exist!"
"Maybe the ideas gave the authors inspiration, but...how is that proof of their existence? They're just pretty statues with man-made words and laws under them. "
::)
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Might make it a better metaphor if the sun really was the most powerful star in the universe.
Take this woman's advice, Teflon! lolololol
People still deny God even though it's intermingled within many aspects of the United States. You just proved my point
"Still don't believe my gods exist? Just look around you! Zues and Aphrodite statues everywhere! Built to honor them! Our culture has truly thrived because of these gods! You cannot deny they exist!"
"Maybe the ideas gave the authors inspiration, but...how is that proof of their existence? They're just pretty statues with man-made words and laws under them. "
::)
I do agree that they influence different cultures. However, you only took part of my comment and left out what I meant in how God is part of so many aspects of the United States. Zues and Aphrodite are not on our money, in our court systems, and they or their bibles are not used to swear in officials. They, and any other god, for example, are not included in the quotes and commentaries, etc. of our founding fathers. God, the Father, and His Word (the Bible) are. Whether or not you want to believe it or choose not to acknowledge it, our moral principles are based on Godly morals and principles.
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If you really want to know what the founding fathers had in mind for this country when it was created, this is what you need to read:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
As for whether they were personally religious? It doesn't make a difference to me. The words in the above referenced document are what I hold stock in when it comes to this nation's government. Interpret them how you want, although I believe they are clear in their intent and purpose.
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For those people who constantly contradict that our God and His Word (Bible) aren't real, think about this. Have you ever thought that if there is no God and no Bible, then why is so much of our country's buildings, monuments, courts, etc. based on that very God you deny? There are the 10 commandments listed in the courts, the president-to-be (or any other kind of swearing in) has to take his/her oath on the Bible, "In God we trust" is on our money, etc. I know a lot of people don't agree with all of this and want to change it or take it out. But the fact is, it is there, and yet people still argue about no God.
It was pretty much the first scientific theory ever. The idea of god or gods has always existed as a way to explain the unexplainable. Primitive humans lived in fear and superstition based on what they saw happening in the world. They didn’t know about the cycle of evaporation so they didn’t know why the rain fell. So they created a deity or spirit that lives in the sky and causes it to rain. The Christian God is nothing more than another god in a long line of superstitious creations. I believe it was created to manipulate the masses, to control us, to make us mindless sheep. It's easy to scare people into this kind of thing, especially back then when you got stoned for not following their rules. It was the quickest way to make the people do as they were told. Since they were so scared that they'd burn in hell, it was easy to do.
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I know God can't be perfect because there is a fault with him from the get go...he loves and wanted to give life, talk about imperfections.
:thumbsup: Bingo! Marie, this is the smartest thing I've seen you say lately. Why can't any of the gods man has invented exist? Because we made the mistake of endowing them with HUMAN qualities.
A perfect god would not need or want ANYTHING. He/she/it would be just fine and dandy existing. Therefore, either god isn't perfect (hah!), or god doesn't exist. Which is more likely, hmm?
Logic...it's a beautiful thing. Use it to free yourself from your superstitions!
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I beloeve that al a person has to do is look at this wonderful Earth that will tell you there is a God. As far as satan is concerned look at all the evil pronto you have Satan :D
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Okay, am I really going to have to be the one who does the epic face palm?
Jcribb, reading what you wrote here makes me angry. Angry at how religion has robbed your mind in some very crucial ways. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I cannot just stand by in the face of an "argument" that is so fundamentally false. And that is not just my opinion; your argument really doesn't stand up as truth at all, and you need to be made aware of this.
Q. Have you ever thought that if there is no God and no Bible, then why is so much of our country's buildings, monuments, courts, etc. based on that very God you deny?
A. Because Christianity is the idiot mythology that prevailed in this country, plain and simple. Your argument fails because Muslims could say the very same thing about their god in their country.
Q. There are the 10 commandments listed in the courts, the president-to-be (or any other kind of swearing in) has to take his/her oath on the Bible, "In God we trust" is on our money, etc.
And how is any of this proof of your god?? Man has been forcing his mythology into culture since the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and before. Just because your Jesus is the religion of choice right now says NOTHING about the validity of it. Your argument fails because you apparently don't know the basic history of man's silly superstitions.
Christianity will come and go and be replaced with another superstition. It's only a matter of time.
Q. Whether or not you want to believe it or choose not to acknowledge it, our moral principles are based on Godly morals and principles.
A. I expect your kids to be dead then, because surely you stoned them when they became unruly like the Bible commands? Hell, you should be long gone, too, if you've ever worked on the Sabbath! ...How are you even on a computer right now? TRUE Christians are supposed to sell all of their possessions and follow Jesus!
Don't try tell anyone you have the moral high card. It's beyond hypocritical.
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Your argument fails because Muslims could say the very same thing about their god in their country.
This was the point I was just about to make. The United States is not the only country in the world and Christianity isn't the only religion that is currently inspriing man-made structures. Buddhism has inspired many buildings and monuments despite not worshipping a specific creator, and in countries far more populous than the US. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, etc. But I guess since Vishnu and Brahma aren't referenced on our currency that is somehow proof that they are not the true creators?
There are the 10 commandments listed in the courts, the president-to-be (or any other kind of swearing in) has to take his/her oath on the Bible, "In God we trust" is on our money, etc. I know a lot of people don't agree with all of this and want to change it or take it out. But the fact is, it is there, and yet people still argue about no God.
"In God We Trust" is apparently being taken off some currency, as covered in another thread on this forum. The Ten Commandments have been taken down from many courthouses. At least one Congressman takes his oath on the Koran rather than the Bible. Does this mean that the Christian God is being disproven? Not really, it just means that people, not deities, are making all the decisions in this realm.
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The sun is the most powerful star in the universe is it always shining? Is it still the most powerful star in the universe when it's not shining. I personally believe the all titles means he's the most high in those areas. For example Almighty means he's the mightiest of the mighty.
You're beating around the bush of my point. Don't blur it with odd metaphors.
Might make it a better metaphor if the sun really was the most powerful star in the universe. :dontknow:
And what star is the brightest or more powerful then the sun?
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Quote from queenofnines:
Okay, am I really going to have to be the one who does the epic face palm?
Jcribb, reading what you wrote here makes me angry. Angry at how religion has robbed your mind in some very crucial ways. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I cannot just stand by in the face of an "argument" that is so fundamentally false. And that is not just my opinion; your argument really doesn't stand up as truth at all, and you need to be made aware of this.
You can be angry all you want. It proves my point that certain people that hate any idea of God can't stand to see the truth put before them. I listed things that are here in America, not other countries. We are discussing God, not those other gods, in this thread. My argument is backed up by fact, as listed under some of the quotes, which relates to my point. I don't need to made aware of your disbelief in God and the influence of Him in America. Your unbelief and apparent hate for anything of God comes through your remarks.
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For those people who constantly contradict that our God and His Word (Bible) aren't real, think about this. Have you ever thought that if there is no God and no Bible, then why is so much of our country's buildings, monuments, courts, etc. based on that very God you deny? There are the 10 commandments listed in the courts, the president-to-be (or any other kind of swearing in) has to take his/her oath on the Bible, "In God we trust" is on our money, etc. I know a lot of people don't agree with all of this and want to change it or take it out. But the fact is, it is there, and yet people still argue about no God.
It was pretty much the first scientific theory ever. The idea of god or gods has always existed as a way to explain the unexplainable. Primitive humans lived in fear and superstition based on what they saw happening in the world. They didn’t know about the cycle of evaporation so they didn’t know why the rain fell. So they created a deity or spirit that lives in the sky and causes it to rain. The Christian God is nothing more than another god in a long line of superstitious creations. I believe it was created to manipulate the masses, to control us, to make us mindless sheep. It's easy to scare people into this kind of thing, especially back then when you got stoned for not following their rules. It was the quickest way to make the people do as they were told. Since they were so scared that they'd burn in hell, it was easy to do.
God is not a superstitious creation. As I said above, some of the founding fathers may not have labled the US as a Christian nation, at the time, but there was a strong agreement that much of the discipline, attitudes, and moral abilities were to be based on Godly principles.
I do agree with you that humans created deities or spirits or gods to help them explain the unexplainable. At the same time, the Biblical history from thousands of years past, laid the foundation from the beginning to prepare the way for the Saviour. There was the old law and after Jesus's birth, death, and resurrection, the new law. God began with the creation of this world and it will end with a new heaven and an eternal place of punishment. God is real.
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It proves my point that certain people that hate any idea of God can't stand to see the truth put before them.
It does not prove your point because I don't hate any idea of god. I hate when my fellow woman runs away with ideas that have absolutely zero real backing.
Our nation running on beliefs that are ultimately false? Can you not understand how scary that is?
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jcribb16. I have really enjoyed reading your comments. It is clear to see that you have the love of God in your heart. Keep up the remarks.
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Pascal's wager comes to mind here.
Queenofnines, how can you without a shadow of a doubt using real true and fast evidence prove that God does not exist?
If you've risked everything and there is a heaven, you'll have lost everything.
If you've risked everything and there is not a heaven, you've gained nothing.
If you've believed in heaven, and there is a heaven, you've gained everything.
If you've believed in heaven, and there is no heaven, you've lost nothing.
I'll take my chances and believe since people like you continue to think you're correct, yet can't actually prove anything.
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So if we are not supposed to die, then what happens to heaven and hell?
They disappear into the realms of mythology as so many other belief systems have in the past. It's only a matter of time till today's beliefs are replaced by others or they evolve or adopt into something completely different. Hell, christians today don't even know much about the bible. There are dozens (if not hundreds) of different sects following the same ancient text. Each with their own take on it.
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And as time passes so do our ideas and ideals. I agree. There are actually more than five hundred different religions and the vast majority of them use the King James Bible version which was handed down from the catholic religion. Yet they condemn and demonize the catholic religion but live by the King James Bible. Once again I agree with you. Most will read the bible for content but not for understanding and most will allow their church leader(s) to tell them how to live their lives. What I see is that too many people have given up their "free will" (if you will) and have allowed anyone who say's "I am your leader", and like so many sheep, blindly follow. Religion is for people who are afraid to step out and live their own lives. They need someone to tell them how to think and act. And to the subject of this thread "I don't believe in the Devil or Hell", by all means believe in what you wish. After all you do have "FREE WILL". :notworthy:
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Not really, it just means that people, not deities, are making all the decisions in this realm.
SAURON FOR PRESIDENT! Very nice post, Kez.
And what star is the brightest or more powerful then the sun?
...omg dood...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Planet-star-sizes-01.jpg
The star "Deneb", for instance, is 60,000 times brighter than our own sun.
God is not a superstitious creation.
The idea of a metaphysical being is semi-superstitious but that's more of a deep philosophical question rather than religious. Since we're talking religious-assertions here, your god was the result of many myths. I think I've already proved that plenty of times with very basic reasonings. But since you adamantly remain ignorant to the massive problems and conundrums that are constantly presented in d+d pertaining to this one specific god, of course you aren't going to acknowlege it. Speaking of which...
I do agree that they influence different cultures. However, you only took part of my comment and left out what I meant in how God is part of so many aspects of the United States. Zues and Aphrodite are not on our money, in our court systems, and they or their bibles are not used to swear in officials. They, and any other god, for example, are not included in the quotes and commentaries, etc. of our founding fathers. God, the Father, and His Word (the Bible) are. Whether or not you want to believe it or choose not to acknowledge it, our moral principles are based on Godly morals and principles.
You really need to get up to date on these things. No offense, but I gotta end the debate here because the argument you present has a completely hollow base. Your argument, at best, is just for promoting inspiration through a specific religion. Not proving a deity's existence.
I'll take my chances and believe since people like you continue to think you're correct, yet can't actually prove anything
I hope you understand you're taking a gamble with an infinite amount of possibilites. Try to understand what your reasonings amount to-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuzFzwbi-Uw
SCarter's post
Cool. Glad another person here can see it for what it grows into.
After all you do have "FREE WILL".
Or so they THINK! But not with the Christian god...mwahahahahaaaa!
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jcribb16. I have really enjoyed reading your comments. It is clear to see that you have the love of God in your heart. Keep up the remarks.
Thank you very much, constance. I do love my Lord. Nothing some of these people say are going to change what I know and believe. I appreciate your comment! :)
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It proves my point that certain people that hate any idea of God can't stand to see the truth put before them.
It does not prove your point because I don't hate any idea of god. I hate when my fellow woman runs away with ideas that have absolutely zero real backing.
Our nation running on beliefs that are ultimately false? Can you not understand how scary that is?
The beliefs are NOT false. Think what you want. You don't have any proof that He really isn't here. You know, you say you don't hate any idea of God. It sure doesn't come across that way. It also comes across with some of your hateful comments to others who refuse to let go of God that maybe you just plain do not like them because they won't cave in to what you say we should think.
P.S. The Bible (God's Word) is one proof that you refuse to accept because it doesn't fit your idea of what proof it should be.
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Pascal's wager comes to mind here.
Queenofnines, how can you without a shadow of a doubt using real true and fast evidence prove that God does not exist?
If you've risked everything and there is a heaven, you'll have lost everything.
If you've risked everything and there is not a heaven, you've gained nothing.
If you've believed in heaven, and there is a heaven, you've gained everything.
If you've believed in heaven, and there is no heaven, you've lost nothing.
I'll take my chances and believe since people like you continue to think you're correct, yet can't actually prove anything.
Good point, mattymatt! :)
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Quote from jcribb:
God is not a superstitious creation.
Quote from Falconer:
The idea of a metaphysical being is semi-superstitious but that's more of a deep philosophical question rather than religious. Since we're talking religious-assertions here, your god was the result of many myths. I think I've already proved that plenty of times with very basic reasonings. But since you adamantly remain ignorant to the massive problems and conundrums that are constantly presented in d+d pertaining to this one specific god, of course you aren't going to acknowlege it. Speaking of which...
Quote from jcribb:
I do agree that they influence different cultures. However, you only took part of my comment and left out what I meant in how God is part of so many aspects of the United States. Zues and Aphrodite are not on our money, in our court systems, and they or their bibles are not used to swear in officials. They, and any other god, for example, are not included in the quotes and commentaries, etc. of our founding fathers. God, the Father, and His Word (the Bible) are. Whether or not you want to believe it or choose not to acknowledge it, our moral principles are based on Godly morals and principles.
Quote from Falconer:
You really need to get up to date on these things. No offense, but I gotta end the debate here because the argument you present has a completely hollow base. Your argument, at best, is just for promoting inspiration through a specific religion. Not proving a deity's existence.
Falconer, is that the best you can come up with for your answer? Obviously, you are not seeing the deeper picture of what I'm trying to show about this nation and God's moral influence from the beginning. As I mentioned to queenofnines above, God's Word (the Bible) is one proof of God, but you choose to ignore that. The proof you want is for God to show Himself in person. God does not have to do that - that would certainly make it too easy for you to accept Him. Remember "Doubting Thomas" in the Bible? He wasn't going to believe Jesus rose again until he could see Jesus for himself and see his nail-scarred hands. Faith is the answer in today's world - trusting in what you cannot literally see. But, apparently, this is something you won't be a part of. That's your choice. At least I feel I have done what I could to present Him to you and others, with other great Christians in here doing the same. What you do is your choice and your eternity.
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God's Word (the Bible) is one proof of God, but you choose to ignore that.
I don't ignore it. I've just never seen any proof aside from claims with silly myths as a backbone. Proof plz.
The proof you want is for God to show Himself in person. God does not have to do that - that would certainly make it too easy for you to accept Him.
Seriously, you actually think this? You see no problem with this? I'll just pretend like I do for a moment and say this-
What a joke.
Remember "Doubting Thomas" in the Bible? He wasn't going to believe Jesus rose again until he could see Jesus for himself and see his nail-scarred hands.
Jesus, as told in the bible, never existed. That much I can prove. And quite easily too. I can also prove that your god has faults. But you'll never listen to reason, so...
But, apparently, this is something you won't be a part of. That's your choice. At least I feel I have done what I could to present Him to you and others, with other great Christians in here doing the same. What you do is your choice and your eternity.
Enjoy your fairy tales. Get back to me with some decent proof. Good luck.
The beliefs are NOT false. Think what you want. You don't have any proof that He really isn't here.
Ahh religious logic rears it's ugly and silly head once again! :D :D :D
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/bspcn.com/SMgCW-YK0sI/AAAAAAAAC90/yO8bgvZj7ok/s800/2843905157_3abe047f44.jpg)
Remember, it's not our job to disprove the existence of your god. We've got nothing here to prove its existence. And there's plenty of proof that it's a man-made deity, and that's what we see through educating ourselves. You, on the other hand, have nothing except an ancient book full of myths. Again, good luck proving it.
Edit: ...and an infinite amount of appealing to emotions.
You know, you say you don't hate any idea of God. It sure doesn't come across that way. It also comes across with some of your hateful comments to others who refuse to let go of God that maybe you just plain do not like them because they won't cave in to what you say we should think.
The reason we speak up, as I've stated dozens of times before, is because you assert it to others as truth, when you have absolutely nothing substantial aside from ancient myths when it comes to proof. As far as "debate-ammunition" goes, that's the equivalent of blanks. You of course have every right to believe what you want, but if you don't have any meat on those frail frail bones of arguments, don't bother debating people who don't live in your mythological fantasy world. I'll requote a user from a few pages back-
"If you live in America, the chances are good that your next door neighbours believe the following: the Inventor of the laws of physics and Programmer of the DNA code decided to enter the uterus of a Jewish virgin, got himself born, then deliberately had himself tortured and executed because he couldn't think of a better way to forgive the theft of an apple, committed at the instigation of a talking snake. As creator of the majestically expanding universe, he not only understands relativistic gravity and quantum mechanics but actually designed them. Yet what he really cares about is "sin," abortiin, how often you go to church, and whether gay people should marry." :angry7:
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if you get into all of the conspiracy theories and stuff you might as well believe in the devil and god. most of them like the free masons and such all route back to god and how the government is hiding stuff due to religious reasons.
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Falconer, you know good and well you can NOT prove there is no God. If it makes you feel better to think you can, go right ahead. If you want to continue to think of it as a joke, go ahead. All I can say is that what you and some others do and/or say against what Christians believe WILL definitely haunt you later. I will continue worshipping and praising my God and studying His Word and have peace in my life. You apparently do not accept God's Word as literal, and that's your choice. But, I will say this, that if you honestly studied the Bible, read prophecies that have happened, are happening, and will happen, and learn about the rich heritage of Bible history, you would have your eyes opened to a lot of things that you refuse to accept. There again, you ultimately will choose your destiny, as I have chosen mine. It's your business to cast it aside, but it's a Christian's business to also contradict things you say against God. We may always be opposite in our views. I really like what mattymatt has to say in a previous post about eternity.
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God's Word (the Bible) is one proof of God, but you choose to ignore that.
I don't ignore it. I've just never seen any proof aside from claims with silly myths as a backbone. Proof plz.
The proof you want is for God to show Himself in person. God does not have to do that - that would certainly make it too easy for you to accept Him.
Seriously, you actually think this? You see no problem with this? I'll just pretend like I do for a moment and say this-
What a joke.
Remember "Doubting Thomas" in the Bible? He wasn't going to believe Jesus rose again until he could see Jesus for himself and see his nail-scarred hands.
Jesus, as told in the bible, never existed. That much I can prove. And quite easily too. I can also prove that your god has faults. But you'll never listen to reason, so...
But, apparently, this is something you won't be a part of. That's your choice. At least I feel I have done what I could to present Him to you and others, with other great Christians in here doing the same. What you do is your choice and your eternity.
Enjoy your fairy tales. Get back to me with some decent proof. Good luck.
The beliefs are NOT false. Think what you want. You don't have any proof that He really isn't here.
Ahh religious logic rears it's ugly and silly head once again! :D :D :D
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/bspcn.com/SMgCW-YK0sI/AAAAAAAAC90/yO8bgvZj7ok/s800/2843905157_3abe047f44.jpg)
Remember, it's not our job to disprove the existence of your god. We've got nothing here to prove its existence. And there's plenty of proof that it's a man-made deity, and that's what we see through educating ourselves. You, on the other hand, have nothing except an ancient book full of myths. Again, good luck proving it.
You know, you say you don't hate any idea of God. It sure doesn't come across that way. It also comes across with some of your hateful comments to others who refuse to let go of God that maybe you just plain do not like them because they won't cave in to what you say we should think.
The reason we speak up, as I've stated dozens of times before, is because you assert it to others as truth, when you have absolutely nothing substantial aside from ancient myths when it comes to proof. As far as "debate-ammunition" goes, that's the equivalent of blanks. You of course have every right to believe what you want, but if you don't have any meat on those frail frail bones of arguments, don't bother debating people who don't live in your mythological fantasy world. I'll requote a user from a few pages back-
"If you live in America, the chances are good that your next door neighbours believe the following: the Inventor of the laws of physics and Programmer of the DNA code decided to enter the uterus of a Jewish virgin, got himself born, then deliberately had himself tortured and executed because he couldn't think of a better way to forgive the theft of an apple, committed at the instigation of a talking snake. As creator of the majestically expanding universe, he not only understands relativistic gravity and quantum mechanics but actually designed them. Yet what he really cares about is "sin," abortiin, how often you go to church, and whether gay people should marry." :angry7:
Okay, that's enough Falconer. It's not our job to prove to you that God exists either. We are to present the good news, and then it's up to the individual as the recipient of that good news to either accept it or reject it. Debating is one thing, but you are being downright nasty. Jcribb's postings are as clear and concise as anybody can make them. Thing is, you want iron clad proof for something that is only obtainable by Faith. Something you don't have.....and willingly reject.
Without Faith it is impossible to please God (Bible). Something we cannot give or prove to you. It has to be your own choice to take that step of Faith. No? Okay....that's your own free will choice. However, the Just shall live by Faith.
So her debate ammunition is blanks is it? And since she doesn't have any meat on her frail bones of arguments, then she shouldn't bother debating anyone who isn't a Christian? That's basically what you said right? How arrogant can you get, and how dare you talk to her like an idiot, and then top it off with relegating her to a fantasy world?
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Falconer, you know good and well you can NOT prove there is no God.
Yeah. That's why I'm agnostic. But your god and your ideals are just one of an infinite amount of possibilities. OMGGGG YOU CAN'T PROVE ME WWWRRRONG!!!
say against what Christians believe WILL definitely haunt you later
I immediately thought of spooky ghosts. But no, they won't. Speaking against christian assertions has made me a better person and more understanding and accepting of other beliefs out there. And it has helped me understand myself better. I've met some very kickass people in the last few years from their discussions on topics like this with me. I've learned a lot from them and myself. If your one deity is against broadening individual horizons and punishing those who are willing to educate themselves, what a narrow-minded nonprogressive low life he truly is.
that if you honestly studied the Bible, read prophecies that have happened, are happening, and will happen, and learn about the rich heritage of Bible history, you would have your eyes opened to a lot of things that you refuse to accept
Ahh memories. You have to remember I used to believe this. But then after some (long) time I realized it was just mythical hogwash. It took many years, but I finally shed myself of that ugly cramped shell. Accepting myths as truth is delusional thinking. And ignorance is bliss. I'm glad I learned to stop that because I learned I'm brave enough to deal with reality.
There again, you ultimately will choose your destiny, as I have chosen mine.
I can choose my destiny. You cannot. Your god is all-knowing and eternal, therefore it has already been chosen for you. Unless your god is imperfect, your freewill is a completely sugar-coated illusion. Mine is up for philosophical debate ;)
I really like what mattymatt has to say in a previous post about eternity.
I can see your pov, but I don't gamble with magical thinking and mythical places. That's the major difference here.
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We are to present the good news, and then it's up to the individual as the recipient of that good news to either accept it or reject it. Debating is one thing, but you are being downright nasty.
I find your offensive "good news" rather nasty as well.
Jcribb's postings are as clear and concise as anybody can make them. Thing is, you want iron clad proof for something that is only obtainable by Faith. Something you don't have.....and willingly reject.
Yeah. Because your idea of using unseen things and lack of evidence as actual proof for things and having a strong hold on society nowadays is pretty backwards and creepy.
No? Okay....that's your own free will choice. However, the Just shall live by Faith.
The christian belief system is fallicious. The christian god, being perfect, has all our destinies already set in stone because of this trait. My beliefs allow for free will. Yours don't.
And since she doesn't have any meat on her frail bones of arguments, then she shouldn't bother debating anyone who isn't a Christian? That's basically what you said right? How arrogant can you get, and how dare you talk to her like an idiot, and then top it off with relegating her to a fantasy world?
Hey, if you can't argue without constantly hitting blunt fallacies and relying on the impossible, don't bother. That's my point. Die-hard christians live in a fantasy world if they keep the myths and ancient quest patterns of the bible on the table during a debate. It's delusional. And don't call me an idiot.
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Quote from jcribb:
Falconer, you know good and well you can NOT prove there is no God.
Quote from Falconer:
Yeah. That's why I'm agnostic. But your god and your ideals are just one of an infinite amount of possibilities. OMGGGG YOU CAN'T PROVE ME WWWRRRONG!!!
You can't prove me wrong either. And there's no need to shout at me - I read your words loud and clear.
Quote from jcribb:
say against what Christians believe WILL definitely haunt you later
Quote from Falconer:
I immediately thought of spooky ghosts. But no, they won't. Speaking against christian assertions has made me a better person and more understanding and accepting of other beliefs out there. And it has helped me understand myself better. I've met some very kickass people in the last few years from their discussions on topics like this with me. I've learned a lot from them and myself. If your one deity is against broadening individual horizons and punishing those who are willing to educate themselves, what a narrow-minded nonprogressive low life he truly is.
First of all, do you really mean a better person or maybe it's really a bitter person it's made you. That's how it comes through your words. Second, who in the world said the last sentence????? My God is NOT against broadening individual horizons and punishing those who are willing to educate themselves. Please don't put words in my mouth - the readers know that's exactly what you are doing.
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Quote from jcribb:
that if you honestly studied the Bible, read prophecies that have happened, are happening, and will happen, and learn about the rich heritage of Bible history, you would have your eyes opened to a lot of things that you refuse to accept
Quote from Falconer:
Ahh memories. You have to remember I used to believe this. But then after some (long) time I realized it was just mythical hogwash. It took many years, but I finally shed myself of that ugly cramped shell. Accepting myths as truth is delusional thinking. And ignorance is bliss. I'm glad I learned to stop that because I learned I'm brave enough to deal with reality.
Well, I think what you did is to mythical hogwash yourself. Anyone who thinks that God's way is an ugly cramped shell isn't very happy inside of themselves to be so disrespectful in that kind of way to the Lord. God is not myth and to believe in God is NOT delusional thinking. Yes, ignorance is bliss because you don't want to face the reality of God. You aren't dealing as brave as you think except for trying to turn people away from Him. You will have that on your conscience at the end times whether you agree with me or not.
Quote from jcribb:
There again, you ultimately will choose your destiny, as I have chosen mine.
Quote from Falconer:
I can choose my destiny. You cannot. Your god is all-knowing and eternal, therefore it has already been chosen for you. Unless your god is imperfect, your freewill is a completely sugar-coated illusion. Mine is up for philosophical debate
Wrong. I have chosen my destiny: God. You have chosen yours: not God. As far as predestination is concerned, no one knows who will or will not accept Him. We are the ones, as Christians, who present God to them. Only God knows who will and who will not. Funny thing is, He actually knows (we don't) whether you will continue down the path you have chosen, or whether you will accept Him down the road.
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We are to present the good news, and then it's up to the individual as the recipient of that good news to either accept it or reject it. Debating is one thing, but you are being downright nasty.
I find your offensive "good news" rather nasty as well.
Jcribb's postings are as clear and concise as anybody can make them. Thing is, you want iron clad proof for something that is only obtainable by Faith. Something you don't have.....and willingly reject.
Yeah. Because your idea of using unseen things and lack of evidence as actual proof and having a stronghold in society nowadays is pretty backwards and creepy.
No? Okay....that's your own free will choice. However, the Just shall live by Faith.
You live by a destiny already set in stone by your god.
And since she doesn't have any meat on her frail bones of arguments, then she shouldn't bother debating anyone who isn't a Christian? That's basically what you said right? How arrogant can you get, and how dare you talk to her like an idiot, and then top it off with relegating her to a fantasy world?
Hey, if you can't argue without constantly hitting blunt fallacies and relying on the impossible, don't bother. That's my point. Die-hard christians live in a fantasy world if they keep the myths and ancient quest patterns of the bible on the table during a debate. And don't call me an idiot.
I said you talked to her as if she was an idiot. I don't call people names deliberately.
You didn't address: It is not up to us to prove to you there is a God either. You seem to keep wanting us to "prove" God's existence to you when that's something you get for yourself by Faith, not through us. If you find the subject of Redemption nasty then turn away since you have made your choice. Why is it that those who have been Christians and turned their backs on Christianity are the worst verbal offenders of those living for God?
Since we live by the Word of God that is "alive" within us (also something we don't have to prove to you), that is what we stand on. Our destiny's are not set in stone. It's the choices I make everyday that will determine the final outcome of my eternity.
Your observations of Christians in society sounds like your afraid of us. Or are you of the like mind as qon that we are holding society back because we are Christians and conservative in our views, and holding back science? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?
This is why I don't debate in here much anymore. It's like beating the air. We all have made choices and will live with them.
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You can't prove me wrong either. And there's no need to shout at me - I read your words loud and clear.
Lol I'm just jokin' wicha.
First of all, do you really mean a better person or maybe it's really a bitter person it's made you. That's how it comes through your words.
That's just with christianity because it's so bloated and fraught with problems. It gets kind of annoying seeing this monster promoted so much...everywhere. But strangely enough my boss brought his kids in today. One is ten and during lunch, out of the blue, he asks me if I believe in evolution. I say yes and tell him why quickly. Then he tells me all these kids at his school are getting mad at the teachings and saying mean things about it-- that it goes against the bible. He told me it was annoying. Keep in mind he's not christian. I just told him "Well yeah, evolution has problems, but just remember this belief just asks for your eyes. There beliefs take away their respect and reasoning skills." and he started chuckling. It was cute.
My God is NOT against broadening individual horizons and punishing those who are willing to educate themselves. Please don't put words in my mouth - the readers know that's exactly what you are doing.
Anyone willing to educate themselves in the field of religion (having an arbitrary position and not having a preconceived notion of what they will only believe), will find out that the christian god is just another god.
"Go educate yourself! I'll disappear!"
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Annella, thank you for coming in here. I like your responses. I appreciate how you backed me up - yes, he is getting a little mean-spirited, as if he's trying to goad me into angry responses.
Sorry, Falconer, no can do. I have the Lord on my side when responding to you. Your remarks of "delusional", "myths", etc. just show the surface of what you apparently think you know about God. Not one time, have I called your ideas those names - everyone is entitled to their own opinion and ideas. While we might not agree on this issue of God/no God and hell/no hell, it doesn't give either of us the right to get ugly about it. We are adults expressing different views and we should act like it.
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Quote from jcribb:
My God is NOT against broadening individual horizons and punishing those who are willing to educate themselves. Please don't put words in my mouth - the readers know that's exactly what you are doing.
Quote from Falconer:
Anyone willing to educate themselves in the field of religion (having an arbitrary position and not having a preconceived notion of what they will only believe), will find out that the christian god is just another god.
"Go educate yourself! I'll disappear!"
No, Falconer, not everyone will come to that conclusion. Reaching for straws, now, are you?
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It is not up to us to prove to you there is a God either.
May the force be with you. Always.
You seem to keep wanting us to "prove" God's existence to you when that's something you get for yourself by Faith, not through us. If you find the subject of Redemption nasty then turn away since you have made your choice. Why is it that those who have been Christians and turned their backs on Christianity are the worst verbal offenders of those living for God?
I'll just say 'history' and 'the nonprogressive attitude' as the main ones from the truckloads I could throw on here.
Since we live by the Word of God that is "alive" within us (also something we don't have to prove to you), that is what we stand on.
Okay cool! Keep it to yourself and the respectable faiths, freethinkers, and nonbelievers really won't care.
Our destiny's are not set in stone. It's the choices I make everyday that will determine the final outcome of my eternity.
You fail to grasp the point. As a christian, you are ultimately a fatalist if you believe your god is all-knowing.
Your observations of Christians in society sounds like your afraid of us.
Personally I'm just annoyed. Not afraid. But when I see the reality of our gov't officials and teachers standing by it adamantly, that is nonprogressive and it holds people back from learning new ideas. I guess...you were right! That is kind of frightening.
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:cat: Well, it is almost 2:00 a.m. here, so I must make myself go get some rest. Insomnia is annoying. But work calls for tomorrow. Have a great rest of the night - see you tomorrow! :)
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Sorry, Falconer, no can do. I have the Lord on my side when responding to you.
Yes. You and your "+1 ATK +3 DEF Spiritual Kite Shield" is really intimidating. ::)
Your remarks of "delusional", "myths", etc. just show the surface of what you apparently think you know about God. Not one time, have I called your ideas those names - everyone is entitled to their own opinion and ideas.
I know about a lot of gods. Yours is just special to so many because of an emotional bliss and anxiety reduction found within the idea-- not the realism. It's common all around the world though with many of the gods. And how could my ideas be called such names? I don't believe in myths. I don't throw myself into fantasy unless I'm in a movie or game. Am I delusional for trying to be rational and realistic when pertaining to the world around me? Christianity just keeps bumping into me since it's so over-bloated and over-popularized. It's hard not to say these things about the beliefs.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8a7syfn0z1qdzjq9o1_500.jpg)
it doesn't give either of us the right to get ugly about it. We are adults expressing different views and we should act like it.
This stemmed from your nonsensical example remember. I wasn't the only one going "....wth!?" here. Now I think I've just commented the most on it.
No, Falconer, not everyone will come to that conclusion. Reaching for straws, now, are you?
What?
Well, it is almost 2:00 a.m. here, so I must make myself go get some rest. Insomnia is annoying. But work calls for tomorrow. Have a great rest of the night - see you tomorrow
Yeah it's 1 here and I gotta be in at 8...blah. G'noyt!
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It is not up to us to prove to you there is a God either.
May the force be with you. Always.
You seem to keep wanting us to "prove" God's existence to you when that's something you get for yourself by Faith, not through us. If you find the subject of Redemption nasty then turn away since you have made your choice. Why is it that those who have been Christians and turned their backs on Christianity are the worst verbal offenders of those living for God?
I'll just say 'history' and 'the nonprogressive attitude' as the main ones from the truckloads I could throw on here.
Since we live by the Word of God that is "alive" within us (also something we don't have to prove to you), that is what we stand on.
Okay cool! Keep it to yourself and the respectable faiths, freethinkers, and nonbelievers really won't care.
Our destiny's are not set in stone. It's the choices I make everyday that will determine the final outcome of my eternity.
You fail to grasp the point. As a christian, you are ultimately a fatalist if you believe your god is all-knowing.
Your observations of Christians in society sounds like your afraid of us.
Personally I'm just annoyed. Not afraid. But when I see the reality of our gov't officials and teachers standing by it adamantly, that is nonprogressive and it holds people back from learning new ideas. I guess...you were right! That is kind of frightening.
Your statement to keep it to ourselves is a laugh!! We don't go out of our way to start anything of a spiritual nature Falconer. We may be responding to someone's question, or trying to fend off some verbal abuse, but we don't pick a fight. We don't start threads to suck someone into a debate about Christianity, just to get a stink going.
It's 11:00 pm here, and I'm fading fast myself.
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Your statement to keep it to ourselves is a laugh!! We don't go out of our way to start anything of a spiritual nature Falconer.
That would explain the constant bombardment of religion threads in D+D then. ::) Hey, I'm all for yelling out loud here. I like reading it. I learn a lot about how people think (or the lack of thinking going around). It's just annoying when it gets to assertions and "lol believe meeee! I'm riiiiight! Look at my petty examplllllleee for the supernaturallllll!". I just wish we could keep it on a philosophical level. Rub our beards and all. lol
We don't start threads to suck someone into a debate about Christianity, just to get a stink going.
Ohhhh yes they do. It's called flame-baiting. The militants who don't post much anymore here did it constantly. It's an old tactic where you post questionable material, someone takes a stance against it, and then it gets out of hand. D+D's past is pretty much proof of this.
It was pretty much the first scientific theory ever. The idea of god or gods has always existed as a way to explain the unexplainable. Primitive humans lived in fear and superstition based on what they saw happening in the world. They didn’t know about the cycle of evaporation so they didn’t know why the rain fell. So they created a deity or spirit that lives in the sky and causes it to rain. The Christian God is nothing more than another god in a long line of superstitious creations. I believe it was created to manipulate the masses, to control us, to make us mindless sheep. It's easy to scare people into this kind of thing, especially back then when you got stoned for not following their rules. It was the quickest way to make the people do as they were told. Since they were so scared that they'd burn in hell, it was easy to do.
I had to quote Sflynts post here though. Nobody acknowledged the beard-rubbing it deserves.
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Pascal's wager comes to mind here.
And it is one of your side's weakest, most "illogical, but trying to be logical" arguments ever. *sigh* How many times do we have to over this before the believers get that what they think is a "slam dunk" argument is actually an embarrassment to their intellect...
Point #1: Pascal's Wager is weak because there are many flaws in it; namely, it assumes you are believing in the CORRECT god in the first place. It won't do you any good if Allah or Thor or Vishnu turn out to be the correct god. By statistics alone, the chances of YOUR god of choice being the right one are incredibly small (they all have the same amount of real world evidence: none). And so, you will not save yourself from the hell place even by believing in them all, because most demand exclusive worship, and who has the time to go to the thousands of different church services for the thousands of different gods you'd have to worship to be "safe"?
Point #2: Pascal's Wager is NOT an argument for the existence of god; it's an argument for belief in the existence of god. "I believe it because bad things might happen to me if I don't"...it's not actually based on any real standard of evidence, it's based on a perceived advantage in your head. And in order for this argument to work, one must already consider the idea of a magical sky being who gives out rewards and punishments as a *reasonable* possibility, which atheists and agnostics don't. In other words, one would already have to believe in god for Pascal's Wager to work.
Point #3: You really don't think an omnipotent, omniscient being could see through your belief as being a case of simply "hedging your bets" rather than true belief? If Pascal's Wager is one of your primary foundations for believing in a god, it's ultimately useless in protecting you from the negative consequences it speaks of.
Point #4: Pascal's Wager claims you lose nothing if you're wrong and that when you're dead, you're actually, you know, dead. But is this really the case when you're dedicating your **one and only life** to a falsehood? Think of all the TIME, money, effort wasted; all of the things you might have done differently, all the things you held yourself back on because you were waiting on a god who wasn't there, all of the people's lives you negatively affected by being a stubborn crusader for a god who isn't there, **think of the progress of humanity that is getting held back because so many people devoted their lives to baseless wishful thinking rather than reality**. Think of the MILLIONS of preachers who could have been scientists instead and found a cure for cancer and prolonged all of our lives to be living to 400 years old...wouldn't that be just great? That is actually something that COULD happen, but y'all would rather sit around wasting time HOPING you'll get it when you're dead.
So no, I think you lose A LOT by believing in an INVISIBLE, inaudible god for which the only [proof you have is a fuzzy feeling in your head and a butchered copy of a copy of a copy book that was written by a bunch of primitive, superstitious goat herders and is no different than any other "holy god book" on the market.
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Falconer, you know good and well you can NOT prove there is no God.
Did you not see the baseball pic? You are being childish here. Did you not read when he said:
"Remember, it's not our job to disprove the existence of your god." You are making the claim that there IS a god; therefore, you have to prove there is! If you can't prove it, than you have no right to try and dictate other people's lives in any way (whether through government law or your empty threats of hell).
"We've got nothing here to prove its existence." Which is why we are atheist and/or agnostic.
"there's plenty of proof that it's a man-made deity, and that's what we see through educating ourselves." Brilliance. And which is why I am a gnostic atheist when it comes to your Yahweh. Mushy god in general? Agnostic atheist. Most sane Christians are actually agnostics.
If it makes you feel better to think you can, go right ahead.
Ain't a matter of feelings over here. That would be your camp.
All I can say is that what you and some others do and/or say against what Christians believe WILL definitely haunt you later.
Um, we don't believe in karma, either. lol Oh, you meant an empty, unsubstantiated threat of hell! I find it so funny that you go around, arms swinging, like you actually have some proof to back up your assertions. But in reality, you've got nothin'.
You apparently do not accept God's Word as literal, and that's your choice.
Um, neither do you. lol Neither does the Westboro Baptist Church since they don't actually kill the fags, although they're doing a much better job than the average Christian.
if you honestly studied the Bible, read prophecies that have happened, are happening, and will happen, and learn about the rich heritage of Bible history, you would have your eyes opened to a lot of things that you refuse to accept.
Yes, read your Bibles front to back, people! We need more atheists!
you ultimately will choose your destiny, as I have chosen mine.
Um, y'all have the same destiny: dead in the dirt.
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Queenofnines, some of your responses are really petty. Just because you or Falconer say something isn't so, doesn't mean that that's the way it is. I DO believe in God. You don't, fine. I DO believe in God's Word (the Bible), so you don't get off telling me, "Neither do you, lol." That's my personal business and it is not in the least bit funny.
I don't agree with that particular church's views. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says God. Sometimes people/pastors, etc. go too far with their personal agenda in thinking God wants them to do certain things that are outside of the law. Not all who claim to be Christian are.
Yes, let people read the Bible. There are prophecies that have come to pass, are coming to pass in our lifetimes, and will come to pass. "Coincidence?" I think not.
Yep, we do agree on one thing: Our bodies will be dead in the dirt! However, our souls will continue on in eternity, either in Heaven or in Hell.
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Queenofnines, some of your responses are really petty.
Well first off, even though we're good pals, I'd say she did a bang up job explaining the rationality of the whole thing.
Just because you or Falconer say something isn't so, doesn't mean that that's the way it is.
Well yeah. I'd like to bring up my "Man in Guam" example unless you remember it. Our point is that the probability of your beliefs being 100% accurate is quite a crazy wager considering the other massive man-made possibilities out there (both past and present). And considering we've discovered massive faults with this particular belief system, it just makes the 'faith' factor look even more like self-deception after we state the proof.
don't agree with that particular church's views. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says God. Sometimes people/pastors, etc. go too far with their personal agenda in thinking God wants them to do certain things that are outside of the law. Not all who claim to be Christian are.
Well good! That's good to know. But, as Qo9 is bound to state, nobody is really christian when it comes down to it. Especially in this country. It's so backwards that it's funny. I'd elaborate, but I'm on my lunch break right now.
**Looks at clock**
Our bodies will be dead in the dirt! However, our souls will continue on in eternity, either in Heaven or in Hell.
Just hope your soul does not get caught by one of the soul-catcher ships that the scientologists preach about. Because, unfortunately, that's a possibility if we're talking about the unknown supernatural.
Edit:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41149562/ns/politics-more_politics/?gt1=43001
AAAAUUUGGGGHHHH GTFO OUT OF MY POLITICS AUGHGHGHGHGH
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Point #3: You really don't think an omnipotent, omniscient being could see through your belief as being a case of simply "hedging your bets" rather than true belief? If Pascal's Wager is one of your primary foundations for believing in a god, it's ultimately useless in protecting you from the negative consequences it speaks of.
What's funny is that the theory behind Pascal's Wager actually predates Christianity. There's a Greek play where a guy tries to do something similar with the god Dionysus, only to ultimately be punished anyways because the deity saw through the insincerity.
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Yes, let people read the Bible. There are prophecies that have come to pass, are coming to pass in our lifetimes, and will come to pass. "Coincidence?" I think not.
You'll love Nostradamus then.
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Quote from Falconer:
Our point is that the probability of your beliefs being 100% accurate is quite a crazy wager considering the other massive man-made possibilities out there (both past and present). And considering we've discovered massive faults with this particular belief system, it just makes the 'faith' factor look even more like self-deception after we state the proof.
What kind of "massive faults" have "we've" discovered? It must be mighty hard kicking against the pricks to "find" as many faults as you possibly can. To make a rebuttal against your "man-made possibilities," a person would have to go back to the very beginning of Biblical history in Rome, Greece, Macedonia, Israel, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, etc., and study the people (who are listed in the Bible) who met Jesus, as a person; knew Him; and even to this day there are roads, buildings, monuments named after these people. They were real people who helped to shape the history around God (and other idol gods, etc.) If they weren't real, but listed in the Bible, there might be more doubt. But that's not the case here. Israel believes in God, just as we Christians do here in America. Are they wrong and living in a "man-made" god-world? No, they aren't.
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Quote from jcribb:
Queenofnines, some of your responses are really petty.
Quote from Falconer:
Well first off, even though we're good pals, I'd say she did a bang up job explaining the rationality of the whole thing.
That's your opinion. I, personally, do not think she did a "bang up job" in her response.
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Quote from Falconer:
Well good! That's good to know. But, as Qo9 is bound to state, nobody is really christian when it comes down to it. Especially in this country.
Just because QO9 would be bound to state that "nobody is really Christian when it comes down to it; especially in this country," does not make it true. I AM a Christian, she is not and you are not. I repeat, I AM a Christian. And there are Christians all around this country of ours - you cannot speak for anyone but yourself.
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Yes, let people read the Bible. There are prophecies that have come to pass, are coming to pass in our lifetimes, and will come to pass. "Coincidence?" I think not.
You'll love Nostradamus then.
Thank you, kezalter. :)
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To make a rebuttal against your "man-made possibilities," a person would have to go back to the very beginning of Biblical history in Rome, Greece, Macedonia, Israel, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, etc., and study the people (who are listed in the Bible) who met Jesus, as a person; knew Him; and even to this day there are roads, buildings, monuments named after these people. They were real people who helped to shape the history around God (and other idol gods, etc.) If they weren't real, but listed in the Bible, there might be more doubt. But that's not the case here. Israel believes in God, just as we Christians do here in America. Are they wrong and living in a "man-made" god-world? No, they aren't.
Roads, buildings and monuments are man-made. It doesn't matter if they're named after Christian figures, after Buddhist figures, after secular figures, they are all man-made. They are also not proof of anybody existing. There were countless structures and monuments to Zeus and Thor, to say nothing about the amount dedicated to Eastern figures and philosophies. It doesn't mean that Zeus existed, it doesn't mean Hercules existed, and so on. Even today there are places named after people that never existed. Our planets are named after ancient deities. Days of the week are named after ancient deities. Using your logic above we thus have proof of the existence of Roman and Norse gods.
Mount Rushmore doesn't prove Abe Lincoln and George Washington lived at one point. Actual historical evidence proves Lincoln and Washington existed, not a man-made sculpture.
There are people who are listed in the Bible that aren't believed to have existed. Ruth, from the Book of Ruth, is one. Esther, from the Book of Esther, is another. The reason is because the books have historical inaccuracies within them, and there is no other compelling historical evidence to support that these people existed or these events happened.
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kezalter: I'm only saying these things are named after people that lived back then and were included in the Bible. I was trying to make the point that one needs to go back through Biblical history, and history of the countries I listed, and actually study everything that happened with these people and how it led ultimately to the realization and knowledge of God. My degree in Biblical Theology covered extensive research in the history of Israel, Greece, Italy, Persia (at the time), etc. - not just Biblical history, but the actual history background of the leaders, judges, kings, wars, etc. and how everything ties in together to show God's presence and reality.
To pick a couple of people out of the Bible and say they weren't real is not accurate. Everyone listed in there is in there for a reason and yes, they were real. It would be very interesting to be able to see the censuses from way back then with all of these people listed on there who were included in the Bible. I support the Bible literally as "God's Word" written by men who God chose to get it down on paper. Faith is the basis of accepting God (trusting in what you cannot literally see) and to Christians, the Bible is definitely one proof of God's existence. You don't have to accept that as it is your choice to say yes, I believe, or no, I do not.
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AM a Christian, she is not and you are not. I repeat, I AM a Christian. And there are Christians all around this country of ours - you cannot speak for anyone but yourself.
I think we should have aimed a little better at what we were trying to say-- all die-hard christians talk the talk, but they hardly walk the walk. And when we state what the bible says, they usually find other random verses to work around it to justify where they stand.
What kind of "massive faults" have "we've" discovered? It must be mighty hard kicking against the pricks to "find" as many faults as you possibly can.
Education is key. When you study other mythological characters from histroy, you start to see patterns. For instance- your protagonist Jesus follows a basic heroic quest pattern that's even still used in the media today. This pattern has been used throughout time with many different heroes predating the jewish carpenter. I was reading an article a few months ago and found something called "Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern" which I was just mesmerized by since it spells it out so well for all to understand. The fact that I've been hearing about this mythical quest pattern since highschool and that it actually blossomed into a full study of world-lit characters is pretty cool.
http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/mythdocuments/heropattern/default.htm
Read the steps quick and then click on Jesus near the bottom. Click on the others next if you want. Can you come up with anything that can counter this? Anything realistic? I can't. I've come to the conclusion that if there actually was a Jesus character, his story has been tossed, mangled, and exhaggerated so many times that it's completely different from what the bible says. And the problem with that is when you see people worshipping this hero, the naivety is very awkward to deal with and annoying when it's asserted.
The other example I could give is the problem with arguing that christians have free will. This one was actually found by Queen a while back and I got a kick out of it. I've given a basic demonstration of how free will can't be achieved with the christian god, but I have heard no opposition to it aside from 'i dunno. have faith' or that odd example Teflon made.
Edit: Pulled from another thread- http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god19.htm
Above, Kezalter makes another good point about the problems that pretty much cover the rest of your post.
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Sometimes the reason a person is included in the Bible is to tell a story with a moral, not to teach history. The Books of Ruth and Esther are believed to be something like historical fictions, designed not to tell literally true stories but to provide guidance and understanding of the themes portrayed and/or the subjects at hand. Similar, in fact, to the parables that Jesus Himself taught. He wasn't telling absolutely factually true stories, necessarily. He was making a point.
I majored in history, took a few classes in religious studies. One of the things that intrigues me is how the narratives of the Bible fit into history, or how they don't. You approach the subject with the assumption that the Bible is true in everything it states. I approach all sources as just that--sources. All capable of being right, all capable of being wrong, all capable of being somewhere in between. This is why I can say that there are plenty of people mentioned in the Bible that probably never existed. The evidence leans in a different direction. I'm not coming to a conclusion because it's the one I personally want to come to--I come to a conclusion based on what is in front of me.
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I'm not coming to a conclusion because it's the one I personally want to come to--I come to a conclusion based on what is in front of me.
Very well put.
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And what star is the brightest or more powerful then the sun?
...omg dood...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Planet-star-sizes-01.jpg
The star "Deneb", for instance, is 60,000 times brighter than our own sun.
@falconor: Is that a star or a planet?
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@falconor: Is that a star or a planet?
Deneb is a star. You can also see how planets and the sun stack up against other stars through this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfs1t-2rrOM). I have a series of pictures demonstrating the same thing with the most relevant ones to the discussion being these two:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/kristogarvelo/messageboards/cosmosimage004bq5.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/kristogarvelo/messageboards/cosmosimage005uj4.jpg)
Obviously, some stars are enormous. To say the least.
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That's pretty cool to say the least seeing how tiny comparatively everything is.
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If you don't believe the Bible kezalter, just say so. The stories of Ruth and Boaz are not true?, or that Queen Esther and King Ahasuerus (Xersus) who ruled over India, Persia and Media, Ethiopia, etc., are bogus? You might get a few Jews on here pause.
You have a choice to believe the Bible is the Word of God or not, but to blatantly say that some of it is true, and some isn't? What is that? It's in with the same thing as "a little bit pregnant". God is not some trickster to give us a book full of holes. Neither is He the author of confusion.
You say you majored in history? So did I. You took religious studies? Me too. How about the Jewish Generations and the progressions of the bloodlines written between the Bible's pages? Have you traced those? The Jews have, and still have the 12 tribes of Israel. Have you studied Jewish history? The Jewish holiday of Purim is based on Queen Esther's triumph for her people. King David (who wrote a good portion of the Psalms) came from the bloodline of Ruth and Boaz. How about Passover, the celebration of deliverance of God and the Exodus of the Jews out of Egypt? Every one of these happenings are written in Jewish transcripts and history.....and the Bible. Jews are very careful to pass down from generation to generation their legacies and history. How about the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran near Engedi, and how they are exact replicas of some of the books in the Bible?
I don't think you have studied enough. If you are really seeking the authenticity of the Bible, then you haven't even scratched the surface.
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Falconer says:
I think we should have aimed a little better at what we were trying to say-- all die-hard christians talk the talk, but they hardly walk the walk. And when we state what the bible says, they usually find other random verses to work around it to justify where they stand.
And just what is walking the walk with you Falconer? Since we live our life by the scriptures, we are living what God laid down as what is befitting a Christian. No verse is "random" to us one bit. The Bible in it's whole is provided for us. If we choose a verse(s) that matches a situation that you are trying to beat us over the head with, and you don't like it? Oh well. However, I find it interesting that all of you who don't believe the Bible still refer to it to blatantly "bash" Christians that we are not living up to what a Christians should be in your eyes. Just where does this Christian measuring stick come from if you don't believe in the Bible?
You all have had a good time "bashing" Jcribb, and she gave excellent answers, but that's not good enough is it? No, your not happy until you thoroughly insult her, and her walk with God, which is actually none of your business, but between her and God. Falconer, you've gotten mean, and I don't know where that came from. You used to have some courteousness to you. Now? :dontknow:
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You're making a million assumptions. I am ethnically Jewish, so don't get so condescending to me about how I might make "Jews on here pause." Some books in the Bible are not reliable histories. I have Jewish and Christian friends who agree with me that the Book of Job, which is taken very seriously by people of both faiths, was possibly or even probably meant to be allegorical. You're assuming that everybody of the Jewish or Christian faiths is as fundamentalist as you are. You would be wrong.
Notice I did not ever say Xerxes was not a real person. You either missed this and made the incorrect assumption that I considered him fictional, or you deliberately injected that name in here in the hopes of putting me on the defensive because Xerxes, unlike Esther, has plenty of corraborating historical evidence that suggests he existed.
Before you go around telling me what the Jews believe about Queen Esther, consider this passage from the entry on Esther in the Jewish Encyclopedia (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=483&letter=E#1330):
In view of all the evidence the authority of the Book of Esther as a historical record must be definitely rejected.
And this was written in the early 1900s. But go right ahead and tell me I'm the one who needs to study further. Go ahead and assume I don't know anything about the history of my own ethincity just because I have a different opinion than you do.
It's easy for me to say that Xerxes existed but Esther didn't entirely because I studied the issue beyond taking the Bible literally. There are plenty of references to the historical Xerxes outside of the Book of Esther. Some sources portray him one way, some sources portray him another. You assume they're automatically inaccurate if they don't jibe perfectly with the Biblical account. I don't make any such assumption. Just because Xerxes existed doesn't mean that everything everybody ever wrote about him is reliable history. There's plenty of evidence that the city of Troy(Ilium) existed. That doesn't mean Homer's Iliad is a perfectly reliable historical source.
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The Jewish holiday of Purim is based on Queen Esther's triumph for her people. King David (who wrote a good portion of the Psalms) came from the bloodline of Ruth and Boaz. How about Passover, the celebration of deliverance of God and the Exodus of the Jews out of Egypt? Every one of these happenings are written in Jewish transcripts and history.....and the Bible.
This part is just as fallacious as the earlier "look at all the buildings and monuments, there's your proof!" thing. There are elements of current religions that have pagan roots, such as worshipping on Sunday or December 25. Does this prove that pagans are right?
And I'm really unclear as to why you went on this tangent in the first place. I never said anything about or against current Jewish traditions being borne out of earlier Jewish stories and teachings.
How about the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran near Engedi, and how they are exact replicas of some of the books in the Bible?
What about them? Many different copies of Gilgamesh or other ancient texts are similar or exact to one another too. I fail to see anything I said that would imply that I would dispute this.
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And just what is walking the walk with you Falconer? Since we live our life by the scriptures, we are living what God laid down as what is befitting a Christian. No verse is "random" to us one bit. The Bible in it's whole is provided for us. If we choose a verse(s) that matches a situation that you are trying to beat us over the head with, and you don't like it? Oh well. However, I find it interesting that all of you who don't believe the Bible still refer to it to blatantly "bash" Christians that we are not living up to what a Christians should be in your eyes. Just where does this Christian measuring stick come from if you don't believe in the Bible?
I'm just talking more of christians supporting an "american-conservative" philosophy where it's okay to go to war, support crooked political officials, hoard things and be insanely rich, bash gays, etc. etc. and still saying they're 100% christian. You know- not worshipping Jesus, but the Republican Jesus meme.
You all have had a good time "bashing" Jcribb, and she gave excellent answers, but that's not good enough is it?
They were well-explained. But they were also very fallicious. That's what myself and others are commenting on.
No, your not happy until you thoroughly insult her, and her walk with God, which is actually none of your business, but between her and God. Falconer, you've gotten mean, and I don't know where that came from. You used to have some courteousness to you. Now
Why are you appealing to emotion constantly? Too many assumptions here. You act like I made derogatory comments about her *bleep* or something! lol this is a debate. I'd have a similar attitude if we were discussing politics or something else around those lines and things from the other side were not adding up. Look, if there's too much emotional stress circling with an individual while debating, the individual should have just kept it to themselves in the first place. Especially since 'it's none of Falconer's business, but I'll present it anyway'.
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You're making a million assumptions. I am ethnically Jewish, so don't get so condescending to me about how I might make "Jews on here pause." Some books in the Bible are not reliable histories. I have Jewish and Christian friends who agree with me that the Book of Job, which is taken very seriously by people of both faiths, was possibly or even probably meant to be allegorical. You're assuming that everybody of the Jewish or Christian faiths is as fundamentalist as you are. You would be wrong.
Notice I did not ever say Xerxes was not a real person. You either missed this and made the incorrect assumption that I considered him fictional, or you deliberately injected that name in here in the hopes of putting me on the defensive because Xerxes, unlike Esther, has plenty of corraborating historical evidence that suggests he existed.
Before you go around telling me what the Jews believe about Queen Esther, consider this passage from the entry on Esther in the Jewish Encyclopedia (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=483&letter=E):
In view of all the evidence the authority of the Book of Esther as a historical record must be definitely rejected.
And this was written in the early 1900s. But go right ahead and tell me I'm the one who needs to study further. Go ahead and assume I don't know anything about the history of my own ethincity just because I have a different opinion than you do.
It's easy for me to say that Xerxes existed but Esther didn't entirely because I studied the issue beyond taking the Bible literally. There are plenty of references to the historical Xerxes outside of the Book of Esther. Some sources portray him one way, some sources portray him another. You assume they're automatically inaccurate if they don't jibe perfectly with the Biblical account. I don't make any such assumption. Just because Xerxes existed doesn't mean that everything everybody ever wrote about him is reliable history. There's plenty of evidence that the city of Troy(Ilium) existed. That doesn't mean Homer's Iliad is a perfectly reliable historical source.
I injected the name because I've done the study. Not to put you on the defensive, or be condescending, so get over yourself. Okay your an ethnic Jew, which means nothing except you "might" consider the Old Testament, but not the New. You also mentioned Ruth along with Esther as being fictional. Do you have a problem with the women, but not the men of the Bible? How about the fact that King David came from the bloodline of Ruth and Boaz? There is historical evidence of him, is there not? Or do you reject Ruth because she was a Moabite in the pure bloodline, so it's easy to throw her on the woodpile because she was a Gentile?
Okay, You may not be a practicing Jew. So if your people don't believe in Esther, why celebrate Purim if you rejected her in the early 1099's? And you did say the books of Ruth and Esther are just historical fiction. Those are your words, not mine. I'm sure you do know your own ethnic history, but that doesn't mean you accept it, which in fact sounds like your doing. Troy? Oh please, while Troy may have existed, Greek mythology loves to spin yarns.
Every race has its fiction stories of great conquest, warriors, loves, etc. However, to place the Bible as a book of fiction goes beyond disrespect. It's only your opinion, and say it all you want, but to pick and choose what you want out of the Bible as truth and not truth, shows a double minded person. No, I don't think everybody is as I am. I'd rather someone say they don't believe the Bible, then waffle on it's contents and truths, and call them fiction.
However, your opinion is just that.....your opinion.
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The Jewish holiday of Purim is based on Queen Esther's triumph for her people. King David (who wrote a good portion of the Psalms) came from the bloodline of Ruth and Boaz. How about Passover, the celebration of deliverance of God and the Exodus of the Jews out of Egypt? Every one of these happenings are written in Jewish transcripts and history.....and the Bible.
This part is just as fallacious as the earlier "look at all the buildings and monuments, there's your proof!" thing. There are elements of current religions that have pagan roots, such as worshipping on Sunday or December 25. Does this prove that pagans are right?
And I'm really unclear as to why you went on this tangent in the first place. I never said anything about or against current Jewish traditions being borne out of earlier Jewish stories and teachings.
How about the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran near Engedi, and how they are exact replicas of some of the books in the Bible?
What about them? Many different copies of Gilgamesh or other ancient texts are similar or exact to one another too. I fail to see anything I said that would imply that I would dispute this.
A tangent? All I said was if your going to reject the Bible, reject all of it, instead of calling the people in it fictional, but allowing that it might have some truth to it. What is that? Falconer is agnostic, qon is atheist, etc. At least they say who they are.
As far as my mention of the Dead Sea Scrolls were to lead credence to the Bible and it's authenticity, but you shot that down also. Me thinks you just don't believe the Bible and leave it at that.
Oh, I know of the pagan roots. Saturday actually is the Sabbath. You don't believe in Jesus anyway so December 25th to you means nothing....pagan or otherwise. While Dec. 25th may not be his birth date, (there is evidence pointing to that), the Bible doesn't say it is. Your pulling out straws to lend credence to your argument, when I never mentioned these things. What's your point?
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And just what is walking the walk with you Falconer? Since we live our life by the scriptures, we are living what God laid down as what is befitting a Christian. No verse is "random" to us one bit. The Bible in it's whole is provided for us. If we choose a verse(s) that matches a situation that you are trying to beat us over the head with, and you don't like it? Oh well. However, I find it interesting that all of you who don't believe the Bible still refer to it to blatantly "bash" Christians that we are not living up to what a Christians should be in your eyes. Just where does this Christian measuring stick come from if you don't believe in the Bible?
I'm just talking more of christians supporting an "american-conservative" philosophy where it's okay to go to war, support crooked political officials, hoard things and be insanely rich, bash gays, etc. etc. and still saying they're 100% christian. You know- not worshipping Jesus, but the Republican Jesus meme.
You all have had a good time "bashing" Jcribb, and she gave excellent answers, but that's not good enough is it?
They were well-explained. But they were also very fallicious. That's what myself and others are commenting on.
No, your not happy until you thoroughly insult her, and her walk with God, which is actually none of your business, but between her and God. Falconer, you've gotten mean, and I don't know where that came from. You used to have some courteousness to you. Now
Why are you appealing to emotion constantly? Too many assumptions here. You act like I made derogatory comments about her *bleep* or something! lol this is a debate. I'd have a similar attitude if we were discussing politics or something else around those lines and things from the other side were not adding up. Look, if there's too much emotional stress circling with an individual while debating, the individual should have just kept it to themselves in the first place. Especially since 'it's none of Falconer's business, but I'll present it anyway'.
You have no idea what every Christian agenda is or what they support so stop putting all Christians into your mental "mode". And your answer does show a measuring stick that you think we should "measure up" to. Your not our authority. Oh, you don't like our "American Conservative" stance? Too bad! Rich? LOLOLOLOL Whoever I support, if Republican, Democrat, red, green, purple, has nothing to do with you, but my right as an American. If my Christian morals and values have influence on who I support in Government, that also is my right as an American.
Keep to ourselves????? Oh please, we don't go looking for you guys to start anything. I was talking to someone about a Biblical question that they asked me about, and before I could answer them, here is qon "bashing" on Christians and how deluded they are on and on.....same old tripe.
Yourself and others ganged up on her to "bash" her, and degrade her belief and walk as a Christian. You haven't heard from me in months. I came in here to support my sister from your hate and discontent. Don't attempt to wipe your shoes on her, and then say "oh, we were just debating".
Emotional constancy? Isn't that what you come down on us all the time about? That we aren't acting like a Christian? We aren't loving enough, mild enough, meek enough, agree with you enough? Kind of a double standard don't you think?
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Quote from kezalter in response to Annella:
I never said anything about or against current Jewish traditions being borne out of earlier Jewish stories and teachings.
What Annella is trying to tell you here is that these events did take place. And the fact is God was involved in these events - that's why they carry on for each generation so that they know where God brought them from as a people, and how the 12 tribes are still that way today. Which in turn, proves these people you listed as not real were actually very real in the history and in the Bible. The Bible is literal and perfect as it is "God's Word." Yes, imperfect humans wrote and published this Book, but what's inside the Book is literal.
The only people that perhaps weren't real, as you say, were in some of the parables Jesus used to get His point across. Parables are stories with a heavenly meaning, as I am sure you know. At the same time, some of the people in those parables may have been real - we don't really know that, only He does.
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Oh, you don't like our "American Conservative" stance? Too bad! Rich? LOLOLOLOL
During election periods, often times I ask myself "What would Republican Jesus do?" lol
Keep to ourselves?? Oh please, we don't go looking for you guys to start anything.
Maybe you don't, but many here do. Especially in the past. Even in this thread, for instance. It has happened.
Yourself and others ganged up on her to "bash" her, and degrade her belief and walk as a Christian. You haven't heard from me in months. I came in here to support my sister from your hate and discontent. Don't attempt to wipe your shoes on her, and then say "oh, we were just debating".
Emotional constancy? Isn't that what you come down on us all the time about? That we aren't acting like a Christian? We aren't loving enough, mild enough, meek enough, agree with you enough? Kind of a double standard don't you think?
We 'bashed' her example down and she kept saying we were missing the point. We weren't. We all just kept digging further into it. You, on the other hand, are just antagonizing for no reason at all-- calling me hateful and discontent. Personal attacks during a debate? How Christian and trite! Seriously, what is up with you? This is a debate. I argued against her religious viewpoint just as I would her ideal political candidate if I had major disagreements. People seem to think religious views automatically get placed on a golden pedestal so others may not criticize or be skeptical of. No, it's down here with the other argumentative material. Get over yourself and stop introducing your emotion-amplifier whenever something sounds a little mean or is taken the wrong way. Yeesh, lady. Your beliefs and characters have major inconsistencies and faults. That's all we're pointing out. Aside from your neat little historical argument here with Kez, most of our questions and evidences are just being avoided completely in favor of boxed reasonings.
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Quote from Annella:
You all have had a good time "bashing" Jcribb, and she gave excellent answers, but that's not good enough is it?
Quote from Falconer:
They were well-explained. But they were also very fallicious. That's what myself and others are commenting on.
World English Dictionary
fallacious (fəˈleɪʃəs)
— adj
1. containing or involving a fallacy; illogical; erroneous
2. tending to mislead
3. delusive or disappointing: a fallacious hope
Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious. Opinion is what one feels or thinks about something, while fact is truth. That means that just because it is your opinion does not mean it is true.
It's my opinion that you and your good pal you mentioned are fallacious in cutting down Christians for what they believe and know about God.
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HELL IS HERE ON EARTH
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I injected the name because I've done the study. Not to put you on the defensive, or be condescending, so get over yourself.
You still jumped to a conclusion that wasn't at all based on what I wrote. Your goal may not have been to be condescending but you definitely achieved it anyways.
Do you have a problem with the women, but not the men of the Bible? How about the fact that King David came from the bloodline of Ruth and Boaz? There is historical evidence of him, is there not? Or do you reject Ruth because she was a Moabite in the pure bloodline, so it's easy to throw her on the woodpile because she was a Gentile?
Nice, you're implying I'm sexist and a bigot. Cute. For the record, I'm an ethnic Jew because my mother was Jewish and that's how the ethnicity is decided. The other side of my family is 100% Gentile and I was raised Christian. Does this mean that for your next trick you'll claim I hate racial minorities? This, by the way, is a tactic used by people to put someone on the defensive--an ad hominem attack, where you imply certain things about me despite my not saying anything of the sort. I said nothing against women and nothing against Gentiles, but you jumped to that anyways. Pretend all you want that it's not what you were doing, but it's what you did. I've seen it enough times to recognize it.
Actually I don't believe in the bloodline laid out in the book of Ruth, which means that I don't buy into Boaz's existence any more than Ruth's. This bloodline question is also mentioned in the Jewish Encyclopedia and has been rejected by Christian scholars such as Julius Wellhausen. So just because King David may have existed doesn't mean that everything written about him or his lineage is absolutely true and needs no further scrutiny.
I used the names of Ruth and Esther because those are the names of the books. It had nothing to do with their gender or ethnicity. If the books were called the Book of Boaz and the Book of Xerxes I would have said they were historical fiction, only that Xerxes is named after someone who probably existed.
Okay, You may not be a practicing Jew. So if your people don't believe in Esther, why celebrate Purim if you rejected her in the early 1099's? And you did say the books of Ruth and Esther are just historical fiction. Those are your words, not mine.
Yes, they are my words, not the official words of the Jewish faith. I'm not a rabbi or any sort of Jewish spokesperson. If you want to learn more exact details about how Jews feel about Esther I suggest you study the issue.
I'm sure you do know your own ethnic history, but that doesn't mean you accept it, which in fact sounds like your doing. Troy? Oh please, while Troy may have existed, Greek mythology loves to spin yarns.
I accept the parts that appear to be historically accurate as historically accurate, and the ones that appear to be folklore as folklore.
Your second sentence is exactly what people say about Christians that gets you upset--that they love to spin yarns, even ones based on people and places that may have existed. That was my whole point, that because people love to "spin yarns" that I don't take everything that gets written down as absolutely true.
Every race has its fiction stories of great conquest, warriors, loves, etc. However, to place the Bible as a book of fiction goes beyond disrespect. It's only your opinion, and say it all you want, but to pick and choose what you want out of the Bible as truth and not truth, shows a double minded person. No, I don't think everybody is as I am. I'd rather someone say they don't believe the Bible, then waffle on it's contents and truths, and call them fiction.
However, your opinion is just that.....your opinion.
What I was saying is that some parts of the Bible may not have even been intended for literal historic interpretation, or that they don't have to be viewed as such to still be useful. They may have been works designed to tell a story and deliver a message, not be perfectly accurate. Regardless of whether Ruth, Boaz or Esther existed the texts can still be studied by everybody based on what their stories teach us. Other books of the Bible are intended to be historical and strive to be completely accurate. The books were written by men across hundreds of years, they were not all motivated by the exact same things, they did not all have access to the exact same information, etc. It's not about picking and choosing what I want, it's about learning the historicity of the writings, and interpreting them from there.
A tangent? All I said was if your going to reject the Bible, reject all of it, instead of calling the people in it fictional, but allowing that it might have some truth to it. What is that?
If you really majored in history then you should recognize "that" as studying history. When studying Greek history you can't assume that everything Herodotus wrote was 100% accurate or when studying Roman history you can't assume that everything Publius wrote was 100% accurate, because it may not have been. Ah, but then the Greeks and Romans just loved to "spin yarns," right? Well, when studying American history you can't take everything Parson Weems wrote down as literally accurate, because it wasn't. The story of George Washington chopping down a cherry tree likely never happened, but Weems wrote it down because he felt it told a valuable lesson about Washington's honesty.
Even when reading the personal journals of historical figures you have to account for the fact that they may be biased or misleading or exaggerating or otherwise misrepresenting what they are recounting--because that is what humans do. Parts may be true, parts may not be, the one thing you can't do is take the "all or nothing" approach. Accepting anything as perfectly accurate without scrutiny or study is as lazy or sloppy a thing you can do as a historian, but rejecting it all could mean you end up rejecting something valuable.
The fact that you could major in history and not recognize that I was doing rather ordinary historical analysis is interesting.
As far as my mention of the Dead Sea Scrolls were to lead credence to the Bible and it's authenticity, but you shot that down also. Me thinks you just don't believe the Bible and leave it at that.
Their existence proves that there were copies of the same text at the same time. It proves that the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves have authenticity, but it doesn't prove that the words on them are 100% accurate, any more than discovering another copy of Gilgamesh or Iliad would prove their stories accurate. It has nothing to do with whether I believe in the Bible or Gilgamesh, your reasoning is just flawed.
You don't believe in Jesus anyway so December 25th to you means nothing....pagan or otherwise. While Dec. 25th may not be his birth date, (there is evidence pointing to that), the Bible doesn't say it is. Your pulling out straws to lend credence to your argument, when I never mentioned these things. What's your point?
Jesus is awesome, and I believe He existed, so don't tell me what I believe in or not. And I celebrate Christmas so don't tell me it means nothing to me, either. And I brought it up because you were talking about Jewish traditions being handed down from beliefs about Esther, and thus Esther and the Bible must be true. So Pagan traditions being handed down through time must, by the logic you presented, mean that Pagan beliefs are true. This isn't my argument, it was yours, I am only laying out the full implication of what you were saying.
Falconer is agnostic, qon is atheist, etc. At least they say who they are.
Why does it matter so much to you what I am? Nothing of what I'm saying is even all that relevant to whatever faith or lack thereof I may have--I'm talking exclusively from the angle of a historian. Nothing of what I have said would be more or less true if I were Christian or atheist or Sikh. You've been making this about me, but it's not about me personally, it's about what the evidence is and I'm giving my opinion of what it suggests.
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Oh, you don't like our "American Conservative" stance? Too bad! Rich? LOLOLOLOL
During election periods, often times I ask myself "What would Republican Jesus do?" lol
Keep to ourselves?? Oh please, we don't go looking for you guys to start anything.
Maybe you don't, but many here do. Especially in the past. Even in this thread, for instance. It has happened.
Yourself and others ganged up on her to "bash" her, and degrade her belief and walk as a Christian. You haven't heard from me in months. I came in here to support my sister from your hate and discontent. Don't attempt to wipe your shoes on her, and then say "oh, we were just debating".
Emotional constancy? Isn't that what you come down on us all the time about? That we aren't acting like a Christian? We aren't loving enough, mild enough, meek enough, agree with you enough? Kind of a double standard don't you think?
We 'bashed' her example down and she kept saying we were missing the point. We weren't. We all just kept digging further into it. You, on the other hand, are just antagonizing for no reason at all-- calling me hateful and discontent. Personal attacks during a debate? How Christian and trite! Seriously, what is up with you? This is a debate. I argued against her religious viewpoint just as I would her ideal political candidate if I had major disagreements. People seem to think religious views automatically get placed on a golden pedestal so others may not criticize or be skeptical of. No, it's down here with the other argumentative material. Get over yourself and stop introducing your emotion-amplifier whenever something sounds a little mean or is taken the wrong way. Yeesh, lady. Your beliefs and characters have major inconsistencies and faults. That's all we're pointing out. Aside from your neat little historical argument here with Kez, most of our questions and evidences are just being avoided completely in favor of boxed reasonings.
All I was saying is that I used to talk to you before on this site, and you were not mean as I've been reading lately. I don't care if my beliefs or character don't equal what standards you think I should adhere to. You have an opinion about what you see as Christians inconsistencies and faults in our belief? Fine, it can be done without "bashing". No, it is not boxed reasonings. You just don't like what you hear, so you downgrade to personal attacks because we don't roll over and say "oh, how right you are".
Also, you were missing the point, or you just didn't care about anything but getting your point across. You guys are like a pack of snapping mutts ready to take down anyone that carries a Bible. Oh, poor you. I'm antagonizing you for no reason at all? Oh, but what you do is just debate? Another double standard. Frankly, I have no desire to come into D&D and pretty much stay out. However, you degrade and bash my sister, you will hear from me. That's what's "up" with me.
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Thank you, Annella. I appreciate what you are doing - I would do the same for you!
I sure don't mind debates - Actually I enjoy sparring with others with sparks back and forth. There are several posters on here who really like to do the same. There are also others who debate at one time with certain subjects, and then bash or lambast at other times. I've noticed the lambasting is usually toward Christians that share their views, ask questions, chit-chat about their views on religion in general, and try to answer questions to those who want to know things about Christianity. It's kind of like they are fearful of God and what it means in their personal life choices. It seems that instead of actually discussing and delving deep, they can't handle that so they use the "cut-off" mode and resort to intimidation, name-calling, and sometimes, just out and out meanness. I am not talking about every non-Christian in this forum. There are several non-Christians just as nice as they can be and know how to debate and discuss without the cut-downs. They ask thought-provoking and challenging questions and in return they give sensible and great answers to our questions and comments.
At least, the agitators are firm in what they believe. However, we as Christians, are firm in what we believe. It's like they are trying to forge chinks into the armor of God that we have around us, and get frustrated when we don't budge. So they come back with answers that are ridiculous and hateful. That's great they have their opinion and I respect that. But I have my opinion as well, and would like the same respect in return. I will keep praying for their souls....
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Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious. Opinion is what one feels or thinks about something, while fact is truth. That means that just because it is your opinion does not mean it is true. It's my opinion that you and your good pal you mentioned are fallacious in cutting down Christians for what they believe and know about God.
1.) Your opinion of american buildings being proof of a deity being among us has been debunked due to historical significances of other cultures' creations with their deities being among them. This isn't an opinion. You asserted fallacious (omg got it rite) claim and we called you on it. Done. Sure it can still be opinion, but it's resistant to reason.
2.) You don't know. You think you know. If you knew, you would be able to present and share the metaphysical properties with us. But you can't. You rely on a frail argument of "You don't need physical means to believe in what I preach". Yes, we get it. But it's ultimately a really weak argument --if an argument at all-- because it has no logical form. From the start, it's invalid.
You have an opinion about what you see as Christians inconsistencies and faults in our belief?
No, it is not boxed reasonings.
It is only an opinion when put on the table with the deception of magic. Magical thinking in an argument should be prohibited because, with the impossible and unprovable, you can argue for anything and get away with it. It's a cop out. Kez has made some great and rational points on this.
. You guys are like a pack of snapping mutts ready to take down anyone that carries a Bible.
Nah. Just the ones with airhorns and megaphones! lol
I'm antagonizing you for no reason at all? Oh, but what you do is just debate? Another double standard.
I stay in the argument at hand. You stay on the outer rim of it and attack personally with name calling. But I vaguely recall you doing this before, so I should probably get used to it.
However, you degrade and bash my sister, you will hear from me. That's what's "up" with me.
I'll attack and degrade her arguments and reasonings and introduce something new into the mix if I see faults, but I will never degrade her actual self. Especially for no reason at all. That would be mean. If this is way too personal of an issue with anyone, they shouldn't even be in the argument. Feel free to argue against my beliefs any time you want. I won't take it personally. I'm not telling anyone to leave. I'm just stating that so they can avoid any emotional drama that sprouts up and they don't want to deal with.
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I injected the name because I've done the study. Not to put you on the defensive, or be condescending, so get over yourself.
You still jumped to a conclusion that wasn't at all based on what I wrote. Your goal may not have been to be condescending but you definitely achieved it anyways.
Do you have a problem with the women, but not the men of the Bible? How about the fact that King David came from the bloodline of Ruth and Boaz? There is historical evidence of him, is there not? Or do you reject Ruth because she was a Moabite in the pure bloodline, so it's easy to throw her on the woodpile because she was a Gentile?
Nice, you're implying I'm sexist and a bigot. Cute. For the record, I'm an ethnic Jew because my mother was Jewish and that's how the ethnicity is decided. The other side of my family is 100% Gentile and I was raised Christian. Does this mean that for your next trick you'll claim I hate racial minorities? This, by the way, is a tactic used by people to put someone on the defensive--an ad hominem attack, where you imply certain things about me despite my not saying anything of the sort. I said nothing against women and nothing against Gentiles, but you jumped to that anyways. Pretend all you want that it's not what you were doing, but it's what you did. I've seen it enough times to recognize it.
Actually I don't believe in the bloodline laid out in the book of Ruth, which means that I don't buy into Boaz's existence any more than Ruth's. This bloodline question is also mentioned in the Jewish Encyclopedia and has been rejected by Christian scholars such as Julius Wellhausen. So just because King David may have existed doesn't mean that everything written about him or his lineage is absolutely true and needs no further scrutiny.
I used the names of Ruth and Esther because those are the names of the books. It had nothing to do with their gender or ethnicity. If the books were called the Book of Boaz and the Book of Xerxes I would have said they were historical fiction, only that Xerxes is named after someone who probably existed.
Okay, You may not be a practicing Jew. So if your people don't believe in Esther, why celebrate Purim if you rejected her in the early 1099's? And you did say the books of Ruth and Esther are just historical fiction. Those are your words, not mine.
Yes, they are my words, not the official words of the Jewish faith. I'm not a rabbi or any sort of Jewish spokesperson. If you want to learn more exact details about how Jews feel about Esther I suggest you study the issue.
I'm sure you do know your own ethnic history, but that doesn't mean you accept it, which in fact sounds like your doing. Troy? Oh please, while Troy may have existed, Greek mythology loves to spin yarns.
I accept the parts that appear to be historically accurate as historically accurate, and the ones that appear to be folklore as folklore.
Your second sentence is exactly what people say about Christians that gets you upset--that they love to spin yarns, even ones based on people and places that may have existed. That was my whole point, that because people love to "spin yarns" that I don't take everything that gets written down as absolutely true.
Every race has its fiction stories of great conquest, warriors, loves, etc. However, to place the Bible as a book of fiction goes beyond disrespect. It's only your opinion, and say it all you want, but to pick and choose what you want out of the Bible as truth and not truth, shows a double minded person. No, I don't think everybody is as I am. I'd rather someone say they don't believe the Bible, then waffle on it's contents and truths, and call them fiction.
However, your opinion is just that.....your opinion.
What I was saying is that some parts of the Bible may not have even been intended for literal historic interpretation, or that they don't have to be viewed as such to still be useful. They may have been works designed to tell a story and deliver a message, not be perfectly accurate. Regardless of whether Ruth, Boaz or Esther existed the texts can still be studied by everybody based on what their stories teach us. Other books of the Bible are intended to be historical and strive to be completely accurate. The books were written by men across hundreds of years, they were not all motivated by the exact same things, they did not all have access to the exact same information, etc. It's not about picking and choosing what I want, it's about learning the historicity of the writings, and interpreting them from there.
A tangent? All I said was if your going to reject the Bible, reject all of it, instead of calling the people in it fictional, but allowing that it might have some truth to it. What is that?
If you really majored in history then you should recognize "that" as studying history. When studying Greek history you can't assume that everything Herodotus wrote was 100% accurate or when studying Roman history you can't assume that everything Publius wrote was 100% accurate, because it may not have been. Ah, but then the Greeks and Romans just loved to "spin yarns," right? Well, when studying American history you can't take everything Parson Weems wrote down as literally accurate, because it wasn't. The story of George Washington chopping down a cherry tree likely never happened, but Weems wrote it down because he felt it told a valuable lesson about Washington's honesty.
Even when reading the personal journals of historical figures you have to account for the fact that they may be biased or misleading or exaggerating or otherwise misrepresenting what they are recounting--because that is what humans do. Parts may be true, parts may not be, the one thing you can't do is take the "all or nothing" approach. Accepting anything as perfectly accurate without scrutiny or study is as lazy or sloppy a thing you can do as a historian, but rejecting it all could mean you end up rejecting something valuable.
The fact that you could major in history and not recognize that I was doing rather ordinary historical analysis is interesting.
As far as my mention of the Dead Sea Scrolls were to lead credence to the Bible and it's authenticity, but you shot that down also. Me thinks you just don't believe the Bible and leave it at that.
Their existence proves that there were copies of the same text at the same time. It proves that the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves have authenticity, but it doesn't prove that the words on them are 100% accurate, any more than discovering another copy of Gilgamesh or Iliad would prove their stories accurate. It has nothing to do with whether I believe in the Bible or Gilgamesh, your reasoning is just flawed.
You don't believe in Jesus anyway so December 25th to you means nothing....pagan or otherwise. While Dec. 25th may not be his birth date, (there is evidence pointing to that), the Bible doesn't say it is. Your pulling out straws to lend credence to your argument, when I never mentioned these things. What's your point?
Jesus is awesome, and I believe He existed, so don't tell me what I believe in or not. And I celebrate Christmas so don't tell me it means nothing to me, either. And I brought it up because you were talking about Jewish traditions being handed down from beliefs about Esther, and thus Esther and the Bible must be true. So Pagan traditions being handed down through time must, by the logic you presented, mean that Pagan beliefs are true. This isn't my argument, it was yours, I am only laying out the full implication of what you were saying.
Falconer is agnostic, qon is atheist, etc. At least they say who they are.
Why does it matter so much to you what I am? Nothing of what I'm saying is even all that relevant to whatever faith or lack thereof I may have--I'm talking exclusively from the angle of a historian. Nothing of what I have said would be more or less true if I were Christian or atheist or Sikh. You've been making this about me, but it's not about me personally, it's about what the evidence is and I'm giving my opinion of what it suggests.
No, I'm not making this about you. You made this about you by saying well, well, well, I'm Jewish so I should know my history. I don't know anything about you except you called the Bible fiction, of which I'm commenting on. You are a person on the other side of a keyboard. My summation is that you pick and choose what you want to believe out of the Bible, and your last post brings this out with crystal clarity.
I meant to throw in the gender card because it seemed that's the only people you were omitting. Since I'm a female Evangelist, there is misconception that women are not called by God.....just men. I was wondering if you were of that mindset. I didn't accuse you of anything, so get off the soapbox. I asked a logical question? I have heard that Ruth has been rejected in some Jewish movements because they feel God would never have accepted a Gentile in the bloodline.
Okay, I do understand that history is the musings sometimes of the men writing it. I also believe that some historians "pad" their information to make themselves look like they know something. However, as much as I've studied the Bible and Biblical history, I've found no inconsistencies of note. I love the Word of God, and have found it's promises are true. I'll be studying in Jerusalem again this year (OT). Yes, with a Rabbi, and I'm stoked!
The Greeks, Romans, Americans, Irish, and any other nationality likes to spin yarns. We all have our tales of lore. If not, then we have libraries with nothing but truth in them. However, I see you twisting my words about the pagan holidays which you brought up. Okay, so you celebrate Christmas, what has that got to do with the price of bread? Most Jews do not. So your different. You believe Jesus was real? Most Jews do not. They are still waiting for their Messiah.
I'm sorry you don't believe the Word of God is all Truth. The Jews really are the chosen people of God, and blessed accordingly. We Gentiles can be grafted in, and become heirs to Salvation, but you are the pure vine. However, everybody makes their own choices what they believe.
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It's kind of like they are fearful of God and what it means in their personal life choices.
I can guarentee you we aren't fearful of any god out there. We're fearful of what the beliefs are doing to the real world. We've stated this various times. Take for instance Africa, the AIDS epidemic, and the Vatican. There's a big one. I'm not making an argument over this. I'm just correcting this mistake.
At least, the agitators are firm in what they believe. However, we as Christians, are firm in what we believe. It's like they are trying to forge chinks into the armor of God that we have around us, and get frustrated when we don't budge.
Because you don't attempt to answer the questions presented.
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Quote from jcribb:
Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious. Opinion is what one feels or thinks about something, while fact is truth. That means that just because it is your opinion does not mean it is true. It's my opinion that you and your good pal you mentioned are fallacious in cutting down Christians for what they believe and know about God.
Quote from Falconer:
1.) Your opinion of american buildings being proof of a deity being among us has been debunked due to historical significances of other cultures' creations with their deities being among them. This isn't an opinion. You asserted fallacious (omg got it rite) claim and we called you on it. Done.
2.) You don't know. You think you know. If you knew, you would be able to present and share the metaphysical properties with us. But you can't. You rely on a frail argument of "You don't need physical means to believe in what I preach". Yes, we get it. But it's ultimately a really weak argument --if an argument at all-- because it has no logical form. From the start, it's invalid.
1) Come now. I didn't say that American buildings were proof. I said that America's culture is intermingled with God, such as the money, buildings, courts (commandments), swearing in of officials. What you are really implying is that all of those things listed are based on a false god. If that were true, then these things would not be prominent. You are banging your head against the wall to no avail! :BangHead: You've got to admit there must be something to God or none of it would be throughout America. Done. (P.S. Yes, you spelled it right! I don't worry about those kind of things, like qon does, because it's not the issue at hand. Everyone makes mistakes.)
2) Sorry, but my argument is not weak and frail, nor invalid. It is backed by history events, our culture in general, and yep, God's Word, among other things. You don't have to accept it, that's your choice. Once again, I say "Faith is the answer to believing..."
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Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious. Opinion is what one feels or thinks about something, while fact is truth. That means that just because it is your opinion does not mean it is true. It's my opinion that you and your good pal you mentioned are fallacious in cutting down Christians for what they believe and know about God.
1.) Your opinion of american buildings being proof of a deity being among us has been debunked due to historical significances of other cultures' creations with their deities being among them. This isn't an opinion. You asserted fallacious (omg got it rite) claim and we called you on it. Done.
2.) You don't know. You think you know. If you knew, you would be able to present and share the metaphysical properties with us. But you can't. You rely on a frail argument of "You don't need physical means to believe in what I preach". Yes, we get it. But it's ultimately a really weak argument --if an argument at all-- because it has no logical form. From the start, it's invalid.
You have an opinion about what you see as Christians inconsistencies and faults in our belief?
No, it is not boxed reasonings.
It is only an opinion when put on the table with the deception of magic. Magical thinking in an argument should be prohibited because, with the impossible and unprovable, you can argue for anything and get away with it. It's a cop out. Kez has made some great and rational points on this.
. You guys are like a pack of snapping mutts ready to take down anyone that carries a Bible.
Nah. Just the ones with airhorns and megaphones! lol
I'm antagonizing you for no reason at all? Oh, but what you do is just debate? Another double standard.
I stay in the argument at hand. You stay on the outer rim of it and attack personally with name calling. But I vaguely recall you doing this before, so I should probably get used to it.
However, you degrade and bash my sister, you will hear from me. That's what's "up" with me.
I'll attack and degrade her arguments and reasonings and introduce something new into the mix if I see faults, but I will never degrade her actual self. Especially for no reason at all. That would be mean. If this is way too personal of an issue with anyone, they shouldn't even be in the argument. Feel free to argue against my beliefs any time you want. I won't take it personally. I'm not telling anyone to leave. I'm just stating that so they can avoid any emotional drama that sprouts up and they don't want to deal with.
You falconer just told the biggest lie. I do not call anyone names, and haven't. You and your pack have and do. We've been called names, degraded for even being Christians, week, delusional, brain dead, stupid, slimy, etc. Stay on the outer rim? Oh no, this is not the outer rim. Looks like I stepped right in the middle of it. Your just mad because I called you on your below the belt tactics. Get over it.
kez and I are discussing something totally different than what you and Jcribb are discussing so your effort to drag them in this is absurd. Of course this is a public forum so they are welcome to add their 2 cents.
She can't explain "Faith" because it is something that is not seen. You keep calling it mystical when in actuality it's the core of Christian living. We can't explain it but say: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It will never be something you can tangibly touch.
And you have gotten mean falconer, it makes me sad.
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It's kind of like they are fearful of God and what it means in their personal life choices.
I can guarentee you we aren't fearful of any god out there. We're fearful of what the beliefs are doing to the real world. We've stated this various times. Take for instance Africa, the AIDS epidemic, and the Vatican. There's a big one. I'm not making an argument over this. I'm just correcting this mistake.
At least, the agitators are firm in what they believe. However, we as Christians, are firm in what we believe. It's like they are trying to forge chinks into the armor of God that we have around us, and get frustrated when we don't budge.
Because you don't attempt to answer the questions presented.
When you get down to it, it's not your concern about what my beliefs are doing to the real world. There are amazing people, both Christians and non-Christians who work together to help those countries, people, and issues. There are missionaries in countries that are doing so much to help people and children with their food and cleanliness issues, their education, their health, etc. Yes, they include God in their endeavor since that is what they are there for in the first place. So your argument is the weak one.
How in the world can you honestly say I don't attempt to answer the questions presented? Good grief, that's exactly what I've done, what more do you want!!!???!!!??? Maybe you should go back through this thread and actually try and "listen" to what I've been trying to say!!!!!!!!!! :BangHead: You make no sense whatsoever.....
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:cat: I must go get some rest now. I have to get up in 4 hours for work. "See" all of you tomorrow. Have a great day tomorrow! :) :wave:
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:cat: Annella, I hope you are able to get some rest tonight. Insomnia is not fun. It's great to "see" you in here! Talk to you later, in here, hopefully, and our other means of communication. :) :)
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Goodbye my friend, I'm praying for your "air". I'm off too.
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1) Come now. I didn't say that American buildings were proof. I said that America's culture is intermingled with God, such as the money, buildings, courts (commandments), swearing in of officials. What you are really implying is that all of those things listed are based on a false god. If that were true, then these things would not be prominent. You are banging your head against the wall to no avail! You've got to admit there must be something to God or none of it would be throughout America. Done. (P.S. Yes, you spelled it right! I don't worry about those kind of things, like qon does, because it's not the issue at hand. Everyone makes mistakes.)
Right. Just like the Greeks and Romans. There's definitely something to all these popular deities through history or they wouldn't be plastered over everything. It's just popularity. What you feel towards your god is just as emotionally affluent to what the citizens of previous cultures felt about theirs. If I were to tell people in those times that in the future, their gods will be falsified and become household names, they'd probably say it's not true and take the exact same stance you have. Sometimes I wonder if one day we'll have "Yahweh Delivery Service" as the new FedEx or something.
Sorry, but my argument is not weak and frail, nor invalid. It is backed by history events, our culture in general, and yep, God's Word, among other things. You don't have to accept it, that's your choice. Once again, I say "Faith is the answer to believing..."
How in the world can you honestly say I don't attempt to answer the questions presented? Good grief, that's exactly what I've done, what more do you want!!!???!!!??? Maybe you should go back through this thread and actually try and "listen" to what I've been trying to say
I've already contested the historical event aspect and you hopped over it. I've also contested the legitimacy of your god's power and you hopped over it. Our culture in general has been shaped by many belief systems. Christianity has just been the prominent one because, like I've already stated, it was/is the most popular and it helped/helps people. Hey, that's cool. If it makes you happy, go for it. But considering cultures are a lot closer together than they were in the past, try to remember the *bleep* analogy I posted a few pages back ;)
When you get down to it, it's not your concern about what my beliefs are doing to the real world. There are amazing people, both Christians and non-Christians who work together to help those countries, people, and issues. There are missionaries in countries that are doing so much to help people and children with their food and cleanliness issues, their education, their health, etc. Yes, they include God in their endeavor since that is what they are there for in the first place. So your argument is the weak one.
Alright I'm willing to admit this is too much of a gray area to state anything. Personally I will say that I volunteer at a soup kitchen and at a humane society because I just want to help out and meet people. Not because some god commanded me to spread their word. I think intent is a key word in this whole thing.
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You falconer just told the biggest lie. I do not call anyone names, and haven't.
"nasty"
"arrogant"
"idiot"
"hateful"
"discontent"
We've been called names, degraded for even being Christians, week, delusional, brain dead, stupid, slimy, etc
We haven't called anyone names. Atleast I haven't and I don't recall anyone else. Delusional isn't a deragatory term if one uses it in the correct context (a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact). I have called the opposing reasonings a joke. I think that's all- I could be missing one or two. Everything was aimed at the argument the person is presenting- not the specific person.
kez and I are discussing something totally different than what you and Jcribb are discussing so your effort to drag them in this is absurd. Of course this is a public forum so they are welcome to add their 2 cents.
Am I? Unless I'm mistaken, I just commended the interesting read.
She can't explain "Faith" because it is something that is not seen. You keep calling it mystical when in actuality it's the core of Christian living. We can't explain it but say: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It will never be something you can tangibly touch.
I understand, but with everything that is being discussed here pertaining to the real world, religious faith looks more and more like self deception to those with aerial viewpoints who have been on the religious grounds before. If you're going to argue for something, faith isn't really a good card to pull since, like I stated earlier, it allows for the impossible. It destroys all legitimacy to an argument. And considering we keep arguing and we keep coming back to faith, this word keeps causing it to spiral round and round. It seems more of like a safe-zone the christians keep running back to rather than trying to find a decent answer.
And you have gotten mean falconer, it makes me sad.
I was going to brag about the pile of dead bodies behind me, buuuuut now maybe I shouldn't.
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No, I'm not making this about you. You made this about you by and saying well, well, well, I'm Jewish so I should know my history.
Your first post to me began with
If you don't believe the Bible kezalter, just say so.
So you made it about me from the start. I brought up my background because your first tact was to say that I was posting things that would give Jewish posters here pause, and that I didn't study enough Jewish history. Then after I defended myself you took the approach that I must be sexist and bigoted against Gentiles. (That was how it came off to me but I suppose I could have misread it.)
you called the Bible fiction
Wrong. I said that a couple of individual texts may be best read as historical fictions whereby their story and message is more important than their historical accuracy. I brought this up because I was replying to "Everyone listed in there is in there for a reason" and the suggestion that it was because they historically existed. I disputed this because much scholarly study has disputed this. I wasn't the first one to even introduce studying the Bible's historical context into the conversation, that was jcribb16.
I meant to throw in the gender card because it seemed that's the only people you were omitting.
I brought up the books, not the people. Right here:
The Books of Ruth and Esther are believed to be something like historical fictions, designed not to tell literally true stories but to provide guidance and understanding of the themes portrayed and/or the subjects at hand.
You jumped to the conclusion of which people I was omitting entirely on your own.
I didn't accuse you of anything, so get off the soapbox.
No, you just heavily implied it, or at least I felt you did. I don't have to get on a soapbox to be annoyed that you assumed that since I have Jewish heritage that meant it was logical to ask if I was against women and Gentiles. If it was legitimately not your intent then I take it all back, but it sounded too close to the sort of thing I've heard before.
However, I see you twisting my words about the pagan holidays which you brought up.
You brought up the roots of Jewish holidays as though they were proof of the accuracy of the Book of Esther. So I brought up pagan roots of modern traditions and asked if they were proof of pagan accuracy. I don't think that's twisting your words, it's applying the logic you introduced to another situation, which I don't think is unfair.
Okay, so you celebrate Christmas, what has that got to do with the price of bread? Most Jews do not. So your different. You believe Jesus was real? Most Jews do not.
It has nothing to do with anything, you chose to say "December 25th to you means nothing" and I responded because you were wrong. I was raised Christian. When I said "ethnically Jewish" it didn't mean I have ever practiced Judaism; it means that my mother was Jewish and that's how ethnic Jewishness works(as per Leviticus 24.10). I may have done a poor job of clarifying that earlier, sorry if it seemed like I was implying something else.
I don't know if most Jews think Jesus wasn't real, per se...my understanding has always been that they don't think He was the Messiah but that they do believe He existed or are neutral about it. But like I said I can't speak for the Jewish.
However, everybody makes their own choices what they believe.
I concur.
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No, I'm not making this about you. You made this about you by and saying well, well, well, I'm Jewish so I should know my history.
Your first post to me began with
If you don't believe the Bible kezalter, just say so.
So you made it about me from the start. I brought up my background because your first tact was to say that I was posting things that would give Jewish posters here pause, and that I didn't study enough Jewish history. Then after I defended myself you took the approach that I must be sexist and bigoted against Gentiles. (That was how it came off to me but I suppose I could have misread it.)
you called the Bible fiction
Wrong. I said that a couple of individual texts may be best read as historical fictions whereby their story and message is more important than their historical accuracy. I brought this up because I was replying to "Everyone listed in there is in there for a reason" and the suggestion that it was because they historically existed. I disputed this because much scholarly study has disputed this. I wasn't the first one to even introduce studying the Bible's historical context into the conversation, that was jcribb16.
I meant to throw in the gender card because it seemed that's the only people you were omitting.
I brought up the books, not the people. Right here:
The Books of Ruth and Esther are believed to be something like historical fictions, designed not to tell literally true stories but to provide guidance and understanding of the themes portrayed and/or the subjects at hand.
You jumped to the conclusion of which people I was omitting entirely on your own.
I didn't accuse you of anything, so get off the soapbox.
No, you just heavily implied it, or at least I felt you did. I don't have to get on a soapbox to be annoyed that you assumed that since I have Jewish heritage that meant it was logical to ask if I was against women and Gentiles. If it was legitimately not your intent then I take it all back, but it sounded too close to the sort of thing I've heard before.
However, I see you twisting my words about the pagan holidays which you brought up.
You brought up the roots of Jewish holidays as though they were proof of the accuracy of the Book of Esther. So I brought up pagan roots of modern traditions and asked if they were proof of pagan accuracy. I don't think that's twisting your words, it's applying the logic you introduced to another situation, which I don't think is unfair.
Okay, so you celebrate Christmas, what has that got to do with the price of bread? Most Jews do not. So your different. You believe Jesus was real? Most Jews do not.
It has nothing to do with anything, you chose to say "December 25th to you means nothing" and I responded because you were wrong. I was raised Christian. When I said "ethnically Jewish" it didn't mean I have ever practiced Judaism; it means that my mother was Jewish and that's how ethnic Jewishness works(as per Leviticus 24.10). I may have done a poor job of clarifying that earlier, sorry if it seemed like I was implying something else.
I don't know if most Jews think Jesus wasn't real, per se...my understanding has always been that they don't think He was the Messiah but that they do believe He existed or are neutral about it. But like I said I can't speak for the Jewish.
However, everybody makes their own choices what they believe.
I concur.
Well, for the sake of going over and over this....you did take some of my post wrong.
I know a lot of Jews, and have a stereotype in my head since a lot of them are Orthodox. That's not you. You say you were raised Christian. I guess you are not now.....just raised that way. That actually makes sense considering your responses. Don't make anything of that, just an observation.
Uh, I have no idea why you would think I accused you of being against women and Gentiles. Was far from my mind. I did want to know if you had a problem with those particular 2 women. Because Ruth was not Jewish and would have marred the pure bloodline. It was a question, nothing more. Your taking this as an afront to you and it's not. However, you did mention the books of Esther and Ruth. Those books are about the namesakes they are titled after. Are you really offended at that or just being picky? If your not Jewish, your a Gentile, correct? My Jewish friends have never made me feel inferior because I'm a woman, so I don't know what your talking about that you hear this often.
If you would have said you did not practice Judaism, that would have answered a lot of questions. You kind of beat around the bush about that, but I understand saying too much on a public forum. My assumption (and it was mine), you were a practicing Jew, and that's why you were saying certain things in the Bible were not true. A lot of Jews do not even think the New Testament is acceptable. Jesus was maybe a prophet, man, nobody. They certainly don't believe He was the Messiah, on and on.
If you really think about what you said from an Orthodox Jew's standpoint, it would be surprising also. There is such devout reverence for the Old Testament among those practicing Judaism. I was surprised that you mentioned it being common that Jews are saying a lot of stories could be fictional. I've never heard one of my friends say that. Of course there are many sects of Jews (I'm finding out), with their own sets of rules what is acceptable and not.
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You falconer just told the biggest lie. I do not call anyone names, and haven't.
"nasty"
"arrogant"
"idiot"
"hateful"
"discontent"
We've been called names, degraded for even being Christians, week, delusional, brain dead, stupid, slimy, etc
We haven't called anyone names. Atleast I haven't and I don't recall anyone else. Delusional isn't a deragatory term if one uses it in the correct context (a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact). I have called the opposing reasonings a joke. I think that's all- I could be missing one or two. Everything was aimed at the argument the person is presenting- not the specific person.
kez and I are discussing something totally different than what you and Jcribb are discussing so your effort to drag them in this is absurd. Of course this is a public forum so they are welcome to add their 2 cents.
Am I? Unless I'm mistaken, I just commended the interesting read.
She can't explain "Faith" because it is something that is not seen. You keep calling it mystical when in actuality it's the core of Christian living. We can't explain it but say: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It will never be something you can tangibly touch.
I understand, but with everything that is being discussed here pertaining to the real world, religious faith looks more and more like self deception to those with aerial viewpoints who have been on the religious grounds before. If you're going to argue for something, faith isn't really a good card to pull since, like I stated earlier, it allows for the impossible. It destroys all legitimacy to an argument. And considering we keep arguing and we keep coming back to faith, this word keeps causing it to spiral round and round. It seems more of like a safe-zone the christians keep running back to rather than trying to find a decent answer.
And you have gotten mean falconer, it makes me sad.
I was going to brag about the pile of dead bodies behind me, buuuuut now maybe I shouldn't.
Those are character traits I was pointing out. I've never called anyone a cuss name, however, I've been called a "*bleep*" more than once. Cussed out to.....seasoned with the "f' word. I'll Clarify once more, I did not call you an idiot, I said you were talking to Jcribb like she was an idiot. I've mentioned this twice, so chill out. No, I don't recall you ever calling me names. You are correct in that.
Yeah, you've mentioned before you have been a Christian. You are not the only one. It seems those of you who are so rotten to us have been Christians before, and now they are going to give "us" what for! I also have to take into account that (maybe) you didn't get a real experience with God. I know of people that got turned off Christianity because they got involved in a church that had leadership that wasn't saved themselves, and hurt people.
God does work in the realm of the impossible. I've seen it with my own eyes. Would you believe me? I'll tell you right now.....no I've told of some things I've witnessed personally, and been called a liar. Why should we try to prove God to you when you have no intention of believing it anyway?
This insomnia is going to kill me.
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And just what is walking the walk with you Falconer? Since we live our life by the scriptures, we are living what God laid down as what is befitting a Christian. No verse is "random" to us one bit
I can sum this up quite easily: there are over 600 commandments in the Bible, and you and and all other Christians ignore 90 percent of them. Which is a good thing ultimately, because we'd have to lock you all up if you took even a fraction of them seriously. All of this should make you question the validity of what you worship, but instead you stand in fear of imaginary places, content with being a hypocrite.
Oh, and stop playing the victim card, Annella. It's been more than just me who's picked up on your unsavory personality lately.
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Hey there are ones who want to hear what the Bible says, and those who don't. I could care less what you think qon.
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Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious.
Nope. Not opinion.
What you don't understand and one of the biggest keys to all of this is that you are playing with a major handicap. Most Christians are so emotionally, physically, financially, etc. invested in their beliefs that reason and reality don't/wouldn't work on them. They've built up this wall of stubbornness because they so desperately want their beliefs to be true. They think if they can will their beliefs to be true, that actually makes them true, when in reality, they are blind to so much.
I really think you all are either terrified of there not being a god and death being the end, or you just really, really want there to be a heaven to the point that your unfounded hopes become a dependence to function in life. It's fun to get passionate about a cause, even if that cause is ultimately false, which is where we see a lot of the gusto for Christ.
You're immersed in the religious culture, either forced by birth or as your own choice early on. Now that you've invested all of this time and you have a gaggle of people you enjoy spending time with who also perpetuate the lie, you are blinded once again by "strength in numbers". Another major roadblock in seeing that your "truth" is only true to you.
It can be quite shocking if you ever have the strength to take your blinders off and see the world for how it really is...the sooner you do it, the more time you save in your precious, one and only life.
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I could care less what you think qon.
And you think I'm actually directing comments at you for your benefit? lol I'm pointing out your ignorance for others, plain and simple. It was never about you.
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Just to clarify: Falconer is not mean. When he jokes and you don't get it, that is a generational gap, jcribb. Him pointing out the fallacies in someone's thinking: again, not mean. In fact, he does a much better job in not getting frustrated by other people's stupidity than I do.
Oh geez! Qon just called us stupid! Well, not directly. People need to grow up and stop getting all butt hurt when someone else points out how they're wrong; that their beliefs are silly, fictitious, fallacious, or dangerous. The only way you can grow as a person is to admit that yes, even *you* can be stupid and be carrying around stupid ideas (what a concept, I know!). Sure you have the "right" to not listen to other people or not take them seriously, but just know it is a character fault if you assume you alone have it all figured out; that you couldn't possibly ever learn from the opposition, and that no one in the room is smarter than you.
This is not an opinion, this is how the world actually works.
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And just what is walking the walk with you Falconer? Since we live our life by the scriptures, we are living what God laid down as what is befitting a Christian. No verse is "random" to us one bit
I can sum this up quite easily: there are over 600 commandments in the Bible, and you and and all other Christians ignore 90 percent of them. Which is a good thing ultimately, because we'd have to lock you all up if you took even a fraction of them seriously. All of this should make you question the validity of what you worship, but instead you stand in fear of imaginary places, content with being a hypocrite.
Oh, and stop playing the victim card, Annella. It's been more than just me who's picked up on your unsavory personality lately.
Regarding the Law: In the New Testament Jesus explains the New Law. In Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus says, "...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Regarding the name calling - Christians do not "stand in fear of imaginary places, content with being a hypocrite." It always seems like when you can't come up with an appropriate question or comment you resort to name calling and intimidation.
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Just to clarify: Falconer is not mean. When he jokes and you don't get it, that is a generational gap, jcribb. Him pointing out the fallacies in someone's thinking: again, not mean. In fact, he does a much better job in not getting frustrated by other people's stupidity than I do.
Oh geez! Qon just called us stupid! Well, not directly. People need to grow up and stop getting all butt hurt when someone else points out how they're wrong; that their beliefs are silly, fictitious, fallacious, or dangerous. The only way you can grow as a person is to admit that yes, even *you* can be stupid and be carrying around stupid ideas (what a concept, I know!). Sure you have the "right" to not listen to other people or not take them seriously, but just know it is a character fault if you assume you alone have it all figured out; that you couldn't possibly ever learn from the opposition, and that no one in the room is smarter than you.
This is not an opinion, this is how the world actually works.
Do you know what is ironic here? Your response is just like a mirror image of your own heart's views and beliefs. You are the one who likes to be the "superior" leader/teacher/name caller when it comes to discussions about God. I don't really care what names I'm called, I'm just saying that name calling, etc. is NOT the way to discuss and debate. None of us are perfect and the most learned in these things, but we are not stupid and ignorant either.
As Jesus also says in Matthew 6:1-5: "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hyprocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
In other words, please quit judging others without first seeing what is in your own heart. You can debate your views, qon, without being judgmental and "superior."
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Just to clarify: Falconer is not mean. When he jokes and you don't get it, that is a generational gap, jcribb. Him pointing out the fallacies in someone's thinking: again, not mean. In fact, he does a much better job in not getting frustrated by other people's stupidity than I do.
Oh geez! Qon just called us stupid! Well, not directly. People need to grow up and stop getting all butt hurt when someone else points out how they're wrong; that their beliefs are silly, fictitious, fallacious, or dangerous. The only way you can grow as a person is to admit that yes, even *you* can be stupid and be carrying around stupid ideas (what a concept, I know!). Sure you have the "right" to not listen to other people or not take them seriously, but just know it is a character fault if you assume you alone have it all figured out; that you couldn't possibly ever learn from the opposition, and that no one in the room is smarter than you.
This is not an opinion, this is how the world actually works.
Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious.
Nope. Not opinion.
What you don't understand and one of the biggest keys to all of this is that you are playing with a major handicap. Most Christians are so emotionally, physically, financially, etc. invested in their beliefs that reason and reality don't/wouldn't work on them. They've built up this wall of stubbornness because they so desperately want their beliefs to be true. They think if they can will their beliefs to be true, that actually makes them true, when in reality, they are blind to so much.
I really think you all are either terrified of there not being a god and death being the end, or you just really, really want there to be a heaven to the point that your unfounded hopes become a dependence to function in life. It's fun to get passionate about a cause, even if that cause is ultimately false, which is where we see a lot of the gusto for Christ.
You're immersed in the religious culture, either forced by birth or as your own choice early on. Now that you've invested all of this time and you have a gaggle of people you enjoy spending time with who also perpetuate the lie, you are blinded once again by "strength in numbers". Another major roadblock in seeing that your "truth" is only true to you.
It can be quite shocking if you ever have the strength to take your blinders off and see the world for how it really is...the sooner you do it, the more time you save in your precious, one and only life.
You are hilarious!! Honest, I have to tell you, when I read your posts, I laughed for the longest time.
What in the world do we have to be terrified about? LOL I think you are so mixed up in your thought process, you have no idea what we are all about. Goodness girl, can't you see you are projecting your own thoughts and fears?
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I believe there is heaven in hell, I think that if you go to hell your reincarnated into a bad life. But if you go to heaven your reincarnated into a good, happy life.
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Those are character traits I was pointing out. I've never called anyone a cuss name, however, I've been called a "*bleep*" more than once. Cussed out to.....seasoned with the "f' word. I'll Clarify once more, I did not call you an idiot, I said you were talking to Jcribb like she was an idiot. I've mentioned this twice, so chill out. No, I don't recall you ever calling me names. You are correct in that.
You ridin' a thin line there, giiirrrl! I must have missed the idiot part though. And you were f-bombed here on FC?
Yeah, you've mentioned before you have been a Christian. You are not the only one. It seems those of you who are so rotten to us have been Christians before, and now they are going to give "us" what for!
Not really. Ultimately we're all just arguing. Both sides will nip here and there. Our freethinking stances are based upon what we have seen, studied, and currently see going on in the world. We aren't using impossible aspects as a line of reasoning and then laughing at the rationale.
I also have to take into account that (maybe) you didn't get a real experience with God. I know of people that got turned off Christianity because they got involved in a church that had leadership that wasn't saved themselves, and hurt people.
If you're talking about the emotional opiate, I'm a guy. I don't really run that route! However, I will say that these beliefs in the christian god did comfort me growing up a lot. I adamantly supported it. There were some idiots at my church (no, seriously. Complete idiots.), but I usually avoided them. I studied scripture a lot when I was younger. Then, as I grew up and studied things outside of christianity, I just realized it's one view of many many others. That it supports the impossible and displays magic as truth just made me groan at my past stance. When Queen stated-
They've built up this wall of stubbornness because they so desperately want their beliefs to be true. They think if they can will their beliefs to be true, that actually makes them true, when in reality, they are blind to so much.
That's exactly what I was. No offense, but knowing the whole "There'd be no room for faith if god could just waltz down and show you! And the only way to god is through faith!" reasoning is just so wacky and disturbing since the problem is so obvious. It is a good tactic to hold followers who are really drilled into it. After a while I guess you could just say I outgrew it. My brother shares a similar story, and he made the good point of atleast we have the knowledge of looking in at it now.
God does work in the realm of the impossible. I've seen it with my own eyes. Would you believe me? I'll tell you right now.....no I've told of some things I've witnessed personally, and been called a liar. Why should we try to prove God to you when you have no intention of believing it anyway?
Were you the user that said you saw someone with AIDS get healed from the disease? I don't remember. Anyways, we'd strongly be with you if you could show us any proof that would surpass elementary skepticism. But that's never the case. It never has been with any Christian or any religion for that matter. Infact if you or anyone here could show proof, there'd be a million dollars in it for you via James Randi! :D I know it shouldn't be about $, but think of all the good you could do with that money. But instead, there's this reliance on this "believe the impossible" test that I see trying to strike at realism and rationality and you and Jcribb just keep laughing at reason. It's fine to call it faith, but we call it a handicap aspect. Again, nobody can use the impossible as an argumentative tool in a debate. I'm not sure why we've prolonged this so far since there's this major gap.
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I think I finally understand falconor's believe and people like him. I think he hangs on to the seeing is believing crowd. However he and others like him accept things they can't see because they can tie it to something physical or can see the results with their eyes. I.E. They can't see emotion but they can link it to the brain or the persons body movements etc. They can't see the wind or gravity but they see the physical effect of it so they believe it anyway. That's three things that can't be seen in the physical world. I wonder what else can't be seen in the physical world? ???
@falconor: Is that a star or a planet?
Deneb is a star. You can also see how planets and the sun stack up against other stars through this video. I have a series of pictures demonstrating the same thing with the most relevant ones to the discussion being these two:
If your correct the school system lied to me.
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I think I finally understand falconor's believe and people like him. I think he hangs on to the seeing is believing crowd. However he and others like him accept things they can't see because they can tie it to something physical or can see the results with their eyes. I.E. They can't see emotion but they can link it to the brain or the persons body movements etc. They can't see the wind or gravity but they see the physical effect of it so they believe it anyway. That's three things that can't be seen in the physical world.
Brilliant, Holmes.
I wonder what else can't be seen in the physical world?
Flying unicorns with cloaking devices from Star Trek. Metaphysical monsters from different dimensions. Leprechauns. And the biggest one of all-- ESKIMOS!
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Those are character traits I was pointing out. I've never called anyone a cuss name, however, I've been called a "*bleep*" more than once. Cussed out to.....seasoned with the "f' word. I'll Clarify once more, I did not call you an idiot, I said you were talking to Jcribb like she was an idiot. I've mentioned this twice, so chill out. No, I don't recall you ever calling me names. You are correct in that.
You ridin' a thin line there, giiirrrl! I must have missed the idiot part though. And you were f-bombed here on FC?
Yeah, you've mentioned before you have been a Christian. You are not the only one. It seems those of you who are so rotten to us have been Christians before, and now they are going to give "us" what for!
Not really. Ultimately we're all just arguing. Both sides will nip here and there. Our freethinking stances are based upon what we have seen, studied, and currently see going on in the world. We aren't using impossible aspects as a line of reasoning and then laughing at the rationale.
I also have to take into account that (maybe) you didn't get a real experience with God. I know of people that got turned off Christianity because they got involved in a church that had leadership that wasn't saved themselves, and hurt people.
If you're talking about the emotional opiate, I'm a guy. I don't really run that route! However, I will say that these beliefs in the christian god did comfort me growing up a lot. I adamantly supported it. There were some idiots at my church (no, seriously. Complete idiots.), but I usually avoided them. I studied scripture a lot when I was younger. Then, as I grew up and studied things outside of christianity, I just realized it's one view of many many others. That it supports the impossible and displays magic as truth just made me groan at my past stance. When Queen stated-
They've built up this wall of stubbornness because they so desperately want their beliefs to be true. They think if they can will their beliefs to be true, that actually makes them true, when in reality, they are blind to so much.
That's exactly what I was. No offense, but knowing the whole "There'd be no room for faith if god could just waltz down and show you! And the only way to god is through faith!" reasoning is just so wacky and disturbing since the problem is so obvious. It is a good tactic to hold followers who are really drilled into it. After a while I guess you could just say I outgrew it. My brother shares a similar story, and he made the good point of atleast we have the knowledge of looking in at it now.
God does work in the realm of the impossible. I've seen it with my own eyes. Would you believe me? I'll tell you right now.....no I've told of some things I've witnessed personally, and been called a liar. Why should we try to prove God to you when you have no intention of believing it anyway?
Were you the user that said you saw someone with AIDS get healed from the disease? I don't remember. Anyways, we'd strongly be with you if you could show us any proof that would surpass elementary skepticism. But that's never the case. It never has been with any Christian or any religion for that matter. Infact if you or anyone here could show proof, there'd be a million dollars in it for you via James Randi! :D I know it shouldn't be about $, but think of all the good you could do with that money. But instead, there's this reliance on this "believe the impossible" test that I see trying to strike at realism and rationality and you and Jcribb just keep laughing at reason. It's fine to call it faith, but we call it a handicap aspect. Again, nobody can use the impossible as an argumentative tool in a debate. I'm not sure why we've prolonged this so far since there's this major gap.
Uh, yes, right here on Fusion Cash.
Yes, it was me (about the healing of AIDS). I offered to provide phone numbers to jordandog, but was told it wouldn't prove anything because I could just have anyone say anything. I've seen a deaf and dumb man hear and speak. I was there. His phonics were off, but we asked him to say "Praise God", and he did! Thing is falconer, when I tell of these things, I get it dissected into falsehood, and thrown back into my face. I don't feel like giving such nuggets of gold out, just to be mocked. They are too precious to lay out for ridicule. There are things I've seen and witnessed, that it would seem like a fairy tale. Anyway.......how can I prove it, except to put you in contact with those that were healed? Would you believe it then, or still accuse me of falsehood? The threads are still around somewhere, I can't remember the title. It went on a long time.
Keep the money. The Gospel, and it's Truth is free to anyone. You know Falconer, the Bible talks about a generation who wants to see a sign, and no sign will be given to them. We don't exact or command God to show us anything. Did it ever occur to you that what I'm telling you what I witnessed, may be what God gauges your heart with? In other words, I don't know your heart, but God does. I know enough about the Lord to say with assurance that if a sign would bring you to Him, he would probably provide it. Maybe it has to be something personal that only you and He works out. So it's personal and undeniable. I've known people to ask God for confirmation about one thing or the other. Not tell anyone, just in their heart, and God answered them. Something that needs divine intervention or it won't get fixed. Not something for gain like "If you give me X amount of dollars by such and such of date".......you won't see squat because you asked incorrectly.
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If your correct the school system lied to me.
You've been lied to, then. The sun appears to be the brightest and most powerful because it is the closest to Earth. If you do a quick google search, though, you will see that it is not the most luminous or largest star out there. Appearance depends greatly upon where you stand. :thumbsup:
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Quote from Falconer:
But instead, there's this reliance on this "believe the impossible" test that I see trying to strike at realism and rationality and you and Jcribb just keep laughing at reason. It's fine to call it faith, but we call it a handicap aspect. Again, nobody can use the impossible as an argumentative tool in a debate. I'm not sure why we've prolonged this so far since there's this major gap.
Whoa, there... I am not laughing at reason. Please don't accuse me of something I have not done or even said I've done.
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Uh, yes, right here on Fusion Cash.
Bleh. Sorry to hear that.
Yes, it was me (about the healing of AIDS). I offered to provide phone numbers to jordandog, but was told it wouldn't prove anything because I could just have anyone say anything. I've seen a deaf and dumb man hear and speak. I was there. His phonics were off, but we asked him to say "Praise God", and he did! Thing is falconer, when I tell of these things, I get it dissected into falsehood, and thrown back into my face. I don't feel like giving such nuggets of gold out, just to be mocked. They are too precious to lay out for ridicule. There are things I've seen and witnessed, that it would seem like a fairy tale. Anyway.......how can I prove it, except to put you in contact with those that were healed? Would you believe it then, or still accuse me of falsehood? The threads are still around somewhere, I can't remember the title. It went on a long time.
Well I won't mock you here. I will contest your claims though. After all, you are diving into a controversial subject- faith healing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ-7beRITYM
There is no cure for AIDS. Has this person seen a doctor afterwards? Is there something online you can show me where this was documented? This is BIG news to me if it's true, so I need to be skeptical in order to believe it. It's the smart thing to do, right? Because one could conclude either the person didn't have AIDS in the first place (perhaps it was a ruse), their test was fumbled up (with certain tests of this nature, there are mistakes made-- 'fluke' is a key term here), or they were never examined afterwards and may still have it (symptoms may not show up years after the diagnosis). Did they order the test via mail or did they go to a hospital? What was the time gap between being diagnosed and healed? Was the doctor/nurse of this infectee from the church? If I were in your position, I would make it mandatory for myself to present these things to the people questioning. Because if I don't, this might as well be another "Miracle cure tonic" like in the old days.
Don't get me wrong- that would be amazing if this could be proven to be completely true. This is a massive and problematic disease after all! I can imagine if this were authentic faith healing, infected people would be lining up for miles to wherever this took place. I would hear about it constantly on the news from famous skeptics-- "AIDS cure found! No joke! Authentic! Faith!". You'd make a believer outta me in seconds if I could see this in action. But there are massive hurdles that I don't see being answered. Isn't it a bit selfish to just heal one person, and not go around curing the millions who are stricken with this horrific disease (that also believe your ways)? Then there's also the people who are just so into it that their stubbornness, fearfulness, and delusional thinking would allow for complete lies. Sure you could put me in contact with the "healed", but honestly look at those victims in the video. They believe they've been healed by this con man too!
I'd believe this once the questions have been answered and are majorly in favor of your beliefs. It would prove me wrong, and I'd have no beef with that! I'd tip my hat to you. But is that the case? Would all these questions result in unexplainable phenomena? I highly doubt it. This is not rudely throwing your claims back in your face. I'm just sliding it back and saying "need mo info".
Keep the money. The Gospel, and it's Truth is free to anyone. You know Falconer, the Bible talks about a generation who wants to see a sign, and no sign will be given to them. We don't exact or command God to show us anything. Did it ever occur to you that what I'm telling you what I witnessed, may be what God gauges your heart with? In other words, I don't know your heart, but God does. I know enough about the Lord to say with assurance that if a sign would bring you to Him, he would probably provide it. Maybe it has to be something personal that only you and He works out. So it's personal and undeniable. I've known people to ask God for confirmation about one thing or the other. Not tell anyone, just in their heart, and God answered them. Something that needs divine intervention or it won't get fixed. Not something for gain like "If you give me X amount of dollars by such and such of date".......you won't see squat because you asked incorrectly.
My point with the money was just to help out others-- not personal financial gain. If you think this AIDS thing is legit, go test it out at JREF. But this is getting a little too personal to the point where if I tread on anything in this paragraph, I'm going to step on a tripmine and I don't want to upset you with my chin rubbing. That, and I'm lazy tonight and don't feel like writing 12 paragraphs.
Edit: Whoa, there... I am not laughing at reason. Please don't accuse me of something I have not done or even said I've done.
My mistake. Sorry. Too many words in this thread to remember who said what and where.
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Edit:
Quote from jcribb:
Whoa, there... I am not laughing at reason. Please don't accuse me of something I have not done or even said I've done.
Quote from Falconer:
My mistake. Sorry. Too many words in this thread to remember who said what and where.
Thank you, Falconer. :)
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Seriously If you say you don't believe in God or Hell, then you are admitting to their existence. but you are choosing not to believe because you you feel it is easier than dealing with the guilt that you have for doing things that you know are morally wrong. I personally know God and I am not worried about your choice to believe in error as opposed to accepting truth. I hope you can get over your own pride and hypocrisy before you find out the hard way how really wrong your thinking is aligned.
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I Do Believe in God and Hell, I Don't, however, believe in President Barrak Hussein Obama or his politics, But that doesn't make him any less real or less of a threat to my well being now does it? And since I have never met him in person nor I bet have you, I seriously doubt you could prove Obama really exists either. Wouldn't you like to know his real name?
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:D People will make you believe that the devil is in people that wears all black, or that doesnt go to church, but this is not true. The Devil is in the actions that people do to people.
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Seriously If you say you don't believe in God or Hell, then you are admitting to their existence. but you are choosing not to believe because you you feel it is easier than dealing with the guilt that you have for doing things that you know are morally wrong. I hope you can get over your own pride and hypocrisy before you find out the hard way how really wrong your thinking is aligned.
What a *gem* of a comment. /sarcasm It's comments like these that make me worry for humanity, truly.
Do you believe in leprechauns Trebor? No? Well sorry, you just admitted their existence! (Do you see how dumb that is?)
If anything, by y'all saying that you have to BELIEVE in a god, that actually does prove that he/she/it is not a fact. I don't have to "believe" in gravity, or germs, or evolution, because these are all demonstrably true...unlike your magic man who exists only in your head.
And what exactly have I done that is morally wrong? I don't torment my child when they tell me that they're gay; I don't cut off family members of a different religion; I don't harass scared women at the abortion clinic; I don't selfishly pray for invisible forces to better my life; I don't tell strangers they deserve unending agony simply for being born (hell)...all things that religious people do.
It's also not a matter of pride, and the term hypocrisy doesn't even make sense as a criticism.
I Do Believe in God and Hell, I Don't, however, believe in President Barrak Hussein Obama or his politics, But that doesn't make him any less real or less of a threat to my well being now does it? And since I have never met him in person nor I bet have you, I seriously doubt you could prove Obama really exists either. Wouldn't you like to know his real name?
OMG!! Australia must not exist either!!! Have you ever been there? No?! Then how do you KNOW it exists?!
Seriously, Trebor, THINK. Pllllllleeeeeaaasssssee.
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from Annella:
Yes, it was me (about the healing of AIDS). I offered to provide phone numbers to jordandog, but was told it wouldn't prove anything because I could just have anyone say anything.
No, Annella, that is not what my reply to you consisted of, not even close. This is in fact exactly what I said to you. If you think I 'edited it', you and others can go look for yourselves because there will be NO edit notice at the end of it in the original thread. It also touches on some things brought up again here by Falconer, which I also wrote in other replies in the original thread such as testing modalities, knowledge of doctors, etc. Here is what I did say and I don't see anywhere that I said to you "because I could just have anyone say anything":
190 Discussion Boards / Debate & Discuss / Re: Religion and Homosexuality Message ID: 243734 on: September 26, 2010, 08:36:51 pm
Annella,
Sorry it took me so long to answer your post about this. I have run on no sleep and too much work the last week - actually slept for 9 straight hours which is unheard of for me. I also spent quite a bit of time doing some checking on things, which is in what I wrote below.
Thanks, but no thanks as to the offer of contacting people with knowledge of God healing some from AIDS. I am sure that they all would in fact tell me they have seen it happen and what am I supposed to say or do? Tell them they are full of it and inform them that, by rights, they should furnish medically sound documentation to all associations across the world? That would certainly NOT be my style to do so, no matter how much I might want to. Since you wrote that, I have made many phone calls of my own to friends/colleagues across the US and also gone to online sites of every association I am a paying and/or registered member of - AMA, CDC, AACN, AACR, WHO, AEGIS(the AIDS Global Base), quite a few more, and have thrown the question out there after searching for it on my own - “Do any of you know of, have documentation of an AIDS patient being cured through prayer?” The answer so far (after some laughing and asking me if I was serious, drunk, or self-prescribing:P) has been a resounding “NO, as if you wouldn’t know about it if I had?!” I said in another discussion, which queen mentioned, this which I found and copied to put here in case you didn’t see it: I have mentioned that I have seen plenty of things happen with patients that cannot be explained and probably never will. It is at those times I actually say, either to myself or out loud, "That was a miracle." The difference now, as opposed to when I fully believed, is that I am once again amazed by the sheer will of the human body and mind to survive. Not by a supernatural act of a divine agent.
They were NOT in the scope of AIDS disappearing. There are probably thousands of surgeons who have gone in to remove some type of tumor or anomalous growth, only to find it was NOT what they thought, not in the area they thought, and even not seeing it period. That is BEFORE the advancements we now have in every form of diagnostics such as imaging of every kind imaginable. There are also many less than stellar docs out there. They may use inferior/older testing means, interpret a blood clot a as a ‘tumor’, go in to remove, and it’s gone - because the body reabsorbed it, but there will still be evidence present to suggest that. There are any number of situations where things appear really ‘wonky’, but they are explainable. When they aren’t, as I said, it is admitted that we/they do NOT know what happened. There are thousands of stories out there from Third World countries of ‘miracles’ abounding. I won’t go into it all here, but let’s just say 99.9% of those are due to ignorance and/or misinterpretation. There are times when those stories become very dangerous also. Right now, there is a yet another doctor in Africa who is claiming to be curing AIDS patients left and right. The result is that people are now refusing meds and treatment and I am sure I don’t need to tell you how irresponsible and dangerous on a worldwide level THAT is. I hope someday to be able to write or say it's been discovered and to be able to administer a cure for AIDS, not to mention a host of other illnesses. You know what else? IF any of those proven cures came as the result of some divine intervention, so be it. I don’t care where they come from, I just want them to come.
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I believe a God does exist so does the devil.We get our breath from God when he takes it away we are dead
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To talk t :BangHead: :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time
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Uh, yes, right here on Fusion Cash.
Bleh. Sorry to hear that.
Yes, it was me (about the healing of AIDS). I offered to provide phone numbers to jordandog, but was told it wouldn't prove anything because I could just have anyone say anything. I've seen a deaf and dumb man hear and speak. I was there. His phonics were off, but we asked him to say "Praise God", and he did! Thing is falconer, when I tell of these things, I get it dissected into falsehood, and thrown back into my face. I don't feel like giving such nuggets of gold out, just to be mocked. They are too precious to lay out for ridicule. There are things I've seen and witnessed, that it would seem like a fairy tale. Anyway.......how can I prove it, except to put you in contact with those that were healed? Would you believe it then, or still accuse me of falsehood? The threads are still around somewhere, I can't remember the title. It went on a long time.
Well I won't mock you here. I will contest your claims though. After all, you are diving into a controversial subject- faith healing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ-7beRITYM
There is no cure for AIDS. Has this person seen a doctor afterwards? Is there something online you can show me where this was documented? This is BIG news to me if it's true, so I need to be skeptical in order to believe it. It's the smart thing to do, right? Because one could conclude either the person didn't have AIDS in the first place (perhaps it was a ruse), their test was fumbled up (with certain tests of this nature, there are mistakes made-- 'fluke' is a key term here), or they were never examined afterwards and may still have it (symptoms may not show up years after the diagnosis). Did they order the test via mail or did they go to a hospital? What was the time gap between being diagnosed and healed? Was the doctor/nurse of this infectee from the church? If I were in your position, I would make it mandatory for myself to present these things to the people questioning. Because if I don't, this might as well be another "Miracle cure tonic" like in the old days.
Don't get me wrong- that would be amazing if this could be proven to be completely true. This is a massive and problematic disease after all! I can imagine if this were authentic faith healing, infected people would be lining up for miles to wherever this took place. I would hear about it constantly on the news from famous skeptics-- "AIDS cure found! No joke! Authentic! Faith!". You'd make a believer outta me in seconds if I could see this in action. But there are massive hurdles that I don't see being answered. Isn't it a bit selfish to just heal one person, and not go around curing the millions who are stricken with this horrific disease (that also believe your ways)? Then there's also the people who are just so into it that their stubbornness, fearfulness, and delusional thinking would allow for complete lies. Sure you could put me in contact with the "healed", but honestly look at those victims in the video. They believe they've been healed by this con man too!
I'd believe this once the questions have been answered and are majorly in favor of your beliefs. It would prove me wrong, and I'd have no beef with that! I'd tip my hat to you. But is that the case? Would all these questions result in unexplainable phenomena? I highly doubt it. This is not rudely throwing your claims back in your face. I'm just sliding it back and saying "need mo info".
Keep the money. The Gospel, and it's Truth is free to anyone. You know Falconer, the Bible talks about a generation who wants to see a sign, and no sign will be given to them. We don't exact or command God to show us anything. Did it ever occur to you that what I'm telling you what I witnessed, may be what God gauges your heart with? In other words, I don't know your heart, but God does. I know enough about the Lord to say with assurance that if a sign would bring you to Him, he would probably provide it. Maybe it has to be something personal that only you and He works out. So it's personal and undeniable. I've known people to ask God for confirmation about one thing or the other. Not tell anyone, just in their heart, and God answered them. Something that needs divine intervention or it won't get fixed. Not something for gain like "If you give me X amount of dollars by such and such of date".......you won't see squat because you asked incorrectly.
My point with the money was just to help out others-- not personal financial gain. If you think this AIDS thing is legit, go test it out at JREF. But this is getting a little too personal to the point where if I tread on anything in this paragraph, I'm going to step on a tripmine and I don't want to upset you with my chin rubbing. That, and I'm lazy tonight and don't feel like writing 12 paragraphs.
Edit: Whoa, there... I am not laughing at reason. Please don't accuse me of something I have not done or even said I've done.
My mistake. Sorry. Too many words in this thread to remember who said what and where.
These are people that I would have to have their permission of contact. I could get it, and they would be happy to talk to you, but would you believe them talking on the phone? You brought up the medical community, and that is another good resource. Just like what I wrote to jordandog, there are documented cases of miracle healings in their files. I myself have seen God heal just about everything. In fact, my organization believes in healing. It's in our Articles of Faith. I've been healed....do you believe that?
You brought up a very good question why they aren't lined up. I don't know, however, I've seen God heal those outside the church also. Not a lot, but here we are at the according to your "Faith" argument. You must believe that God can do this. He is no respecter of persons. There are many patriarchs and elders of our organization that have written books on personal experiences of healing and the miracles of God they have witnessed.
You see, already your trying to logic it out with.....maybe the person didn't have AIDS to begin with, tests were fumbled, on and on. If you really came up against someone who was really healed, I don't think you would believe it, you would still rationalize it in your mind. No wonder the Lord relates someone coming to Him as having the spirit as a little child.....no questions or boundaries, or proof....just faith that He is. However, I know there are a lot of false teachers out there saying they can do this and that. I don't want to offend anyone, but the TV Evangelists come to mind.
Now we get in an area where you are pushing me into a corner to say things you won't believe either because of past conversations on this forum. Why are the millions out there still diseased if there is healing power for them? Yes, why? Let me ask this, what is their lifestyle, what kind of sin are they in and don't want to let go of? What has them trapped and bound? Why is there such resistance to God and the Belief in Him and that he is a miracle working God? You only have to look in this forum to answer those question. In other words, show us a sign God, but we don't have to believe it. Why should God show you anything if you don't even believe who He is and a rewarder of those who seek Him? Do you believe in an enemy that owns this world and the sin in it. That fights God every step of the way? it's not just show us this and we will believe. They did that in Jesus time too. He healed EVERYONE who came to Him. Did it save Him from being crucified?
However, I'm trying to find a way to get some information to you without this forum. My identity has been hacked into, so I'm very careful about my personal information. Jcribb and few others have it, but I trust them. Not everybody can be trusted as you well know.
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To talk t :BangHead: :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time
You are correct and smarter than I am in this.
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:D People will make you believe that the devil is in people that wears all black, or that doesnt go to church, but this is not true. The Devil is in the actions that people do to people.
Black is the basis of my wardrobe, with a spattering of red (my favorite color), with some charcoal thrown in. I'm an Evangelist and wear black more often than not. The Bible says that satan can transform himself into an angel of light falsely to do his dirty work. So looks can be deceiving and colors that people wear.
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Seriously If you say you don't believe in God or Hell, then you are admitting to their existence. but you are choosing not to believe because you you feel it is easier than dealing with the guilt that you have for doing things that you know are morally wrong. I hope you can get over your own pride and hypocrisy before you find out the hard way how really wrong your thinking is aligned.
What a *gem* of a comment. /sarcasm It's comments like these that make me worry for humanity, truly.
Do you believe in leprechauns Trebor? No? Well sorry, you just admitted their existence! (Do you see how dumb that is?)
If anything, by y'all saying that you have to BELIEVE in a god, that actually does prove that he/she/it is not a fact. I don't have to "believe" in gravity, or germs, or evolution, because these are all demonstrably true...unlike your magic man who exists only in your head.
And what exactly have I done that is morally wrong? I don't torment my child when they tell me that they're gay; I don't cut off family members of a different religion; I don't harass scared women at the abortion clinic; I don't selfishly pray for invisible forces to better my life; I don't tell strangers they deserve unending agony simply for being born (hell)...all things that religious people do.
It's also not a matter of pride, and the term hypocrisy doesn't even make sense as a criticism.
I Do Believe in God and Hell, I Don't, however, believe in President Barrak Hussein Obama or his politics, But that doesn't make him any less real or less of a threat to my well being now does it? And since I have never met him in person nor I bet have you, I seriously doubt you could prove Obama really exists either. Wouldn't you like to know his real name?
OMG!! Australia must not exist either!!! Have you ever been there? No?! Then how do you KNOW it exists?!
Seriously, Trebor, THINK. Pllllllleeeeeaaasssssee.
No....you think.....qon. You'r not a hypocrite. You'r the Atheist in the bunch that use to be a Christian. I'd call that a turncoat....a Judas. Too harsh, or true? Quit putting down new people because they have something to say. Your sarcasm makes me want to puke. Your are the most abrasive miserable person I've ever known to post on a forum.
You haven't learned the art to post without putting people down or sarcasm. That shows how insecure you are. Those who do that have to build themselves up by putting others down. It also shows you have nothing to contribute except negativity.
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Trebor and Willie......come in here any time you want and say what you want. This is your forum also. qon is a miserable woman who hates God, Bible, etc. Oh wait, she confesses to be an Atheist. She spends her time putting down Christians, and those who believe in His existence and the Bible. While a lot of people don't believe that way, they are courteous about it. qon has not learned the common art of manners.
Welcome to Fusion Cash!
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Jdog's post
I love you, Jdog. I really do.
These are people that I would have to have their permission of contact. I could get it, and they would be happy to talk to you, but would you believe them talking on the phone? You brought up the medical community, and that is another good resource. Just like what I wrote to jordandog, there are documented cases of miracle healings in their files. I myself have seen God heal just about everything. In fact, my organization believes in healing. It's in our Articles of Faith. I've been healed....do you believe that?
Honestly? No I don't. Did you watch the video? Did you read Jordan's post? She said there are no favorable documented cases. Here, skim this-
http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/HerbsVitaminsandMinerals/faith-healing
There's a reason that rational people don't bother much with faith healers. With the evidence presented, it is nothing more than positive claims that comfort people in pain. If positive thought helps heal or blur the pain from these individuals, cool. But promoting and advertising the supernatural should not go beyond the bounds of that specific church. Why? Because it get's dangerous- as presented in the video. People are gullible everywhere you go.
Of course the victims are going to tell me it worked though. Would I believe them? No. I'd need every single variable at my disposal before I would. Because if this is legitimate, I could help save millions of people by spreading this information. THIS IS AIDS! Would I get those undoctored variables? In these rare cases, probably not. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with choosing this educated course of action. If I were to see 10,000 (legitimately-tested) infected people --all with various beliefs including your own-- go to a faith healer you subscribe to and they are all found to be (legitimately) cured, I would believe. But all I see are isolated stories-- aka flukes at best.
Why are the millions out there still diseased if there is healing power for them? Yes, why? Let me ask this, what is their lifestyle, what kind of sin are they in and don't want to let go of? What has them trapped and bound?
Attributing diseases to specific lifestyles is a slippery slope.There are plenty of roads I could take on this one, but if you can't see them, I don't think it's really worth going into.
However, I'm trying to find a way to get some information to you without this forum. My identity has been hacked into, so I'm very careful about my personal information. Jcribb and few others have it, but I trust them. Not everybody can be trusted as you well know.
I have enough people in my life trying to constantly convert me-- a primary reason why us non-believers get so aggrevated by this stuff. The most recent bouts, aside from this one, was with some Mormon missionaries and some girl on FB who is taking the exact same approach you are right now. Queen has read some of the other past stories of this with me. I do appreciate the gesture, but no thanks. Been there, done that.
To talk t :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time
Not true. Talking to a guy who does not proofread his posts is a waste of time!
qon is a miserable woman who hates God, Bible, etc.
I can present proof of this not being true! lol She's a very good person. She has introduced me to a lot of brilliant new concepts. And in that post you quoted, she made some specific (though extreme) examples of why people are bothered by these biblical followers. Trebor's reasonings were filled with insanely large gaps. Though if I were her, I would have saved myself some time and just thrown on a facepalm picture. ;)
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Uh, hey guys, I done run out of popcorn. And where did marieelissa go? She got this started. You know, I think there should be a section in the forum just for people to disagree with each other. It has been an interesting read, but my eyeballs are bleeding. Gotta go say my prayers and go to bed now. Nighty-nite! :wave:se
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Then falconer, there is nothing I can do then to get certain material in your hands. After the last post, I don't want to either.
I think you just insulted me with the different roads answer. I keep forgetting I'm talking to an unbeliever.
qon is absolutely toxic. She is horrible to people without any provocation what so ever. Especially those who want to say something, and she cuts them off at the knees. She absolutely "dumped' on those 2 newbies. Something she does quite often. I don't care if you don't like Christians or what they have to say, but this is a PUBLIC FORUM, and everybody has a right to use it. Even those who have Christian dialogue. Why don't you go get your own website with a forum, then you can censor who you want to post.
Sorry I wasted your time, you obviously are now trying to muddy the waters with your redundant requests like putting a number (10,000), from various religions, etc., etc. Nope, you don't want to know anything, and I'm done. I told the Truth and God knows it. He's the only one I have to answer to after this life. I have nothing to prove to anyone. My walk with God is too precious for me to "put it out there" anymore with you.
I wasted my time, something I don't like to do because I never get it back.
To talk t :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time
Not true. Talking to a guy who does not proofread his posts is a waste of time!
It's not like we're turning in copy to be printed in the Wall Street Journal, it's an internet forum for goodness sake! Since when did Fusion Cash hire you and qon to police the spelling and grammer?
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Quote from Willie:
To talk t :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time
Quote from Falconer:
Not true. Talking to a guy who does not proofread his posts is a waste of time!
Quote from Annella:
It's not like we're turning in copy to be printed in the Wall Street Journal, it's an internet forum for goodness sake! Since when did Fusion Cash hire you and qon to police the spelling and grammer?
I agree. Falconer, you made a mistake yourself in a post to me. Remember that I told you that it was not the issue at hand... See below:
Quote from Falconer:
They were well-explained. But they were also very fallicious. That's what myself and others are commenting on
Quote also from Falconer:
You asserted fallacious (omg got it rite)
Quote from jcribb:
(P.S. Yes, you spelled it right! I don't worry about those kind of things, like qon does, because it's not the issue at hand. Everyone makes mistakes.)
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I agree. Falconer, you made a mistake yourself in a post to me. Remember that I told you that it was not the issue at hand... See below:
I was aware. 1 mistake out of...? I never cared if people make a mistake here and there. My point in saying that was this guy posted a total of 3 'sentences' and they're written like a 10 year old. I'd be surprised if he even read any of your/Annella's nice posts to them. These people doing the whole post-and-leave thing...blah! Itz too :BangHead: commom! This is trivial though. I really don't care.
Then falconer, there is nothing I can do then to get certain material in your hands. After the last post, I don't want to either.
Odd that the FB girl said the exact same thing. She said she wanted to give me some random book on christianity, but then said I was too full of myself to understand her or the book. All because I just asked some open-ended questions. I wish I could remember the title of it though.
I think you just insulted me with the different roads answer. I keep forgetting I'm talking to an unbeliever.
I didn't insult you nor was that my intention. The reasoning you gave was extremely black and white. That's all. If you want me to post the problems that I see, I will. But I doubt it will add much to the topic.
qon is absolutely toxic. She is horrible to people without any provocation what so ever. Especially those who want to say something, and she cuts them off at the knees. She absolutely "dumped' on those 2 newbies. Something she does quite often. I don't care if you don't like Christians or what they have to say, but this is a PUBLIC FORUM, and everybody has a right to use it. Even those who have Christian dialogue. Why don't you go get your own website with a forum, then you can censor who you want to post.
I look at her response to Trebor64. The user insults nonbelievers with absolutely naive assumptions, and she responds with why Trebor's reasonings are both extremely insulting and throws his garbage right back at him. If you think they're rude posts, I would suggest trying to look at what she is presenting internally, rather than how one hears the tone of the post in their mind.
And why would I censor anyone? This is a public forum. I don't need a personal forum to rule over with an iron fist. I have my robot army for that.
Sorry I wasted your time, you obviously are now trying to muddy the waters with your redundant requests like putting a number (10,000), from various religions, etc., etc. Nope, you don't want to know anything, and I'm done. I told the Truth and God knows it. He's the only one I have to answer to after this life. I have nothing to prove to anyone. My walk with God is too precious for me to "put it out there" anymore with you.
The waters became hard thick mud when you introduced faith healing. I presented some ideas of how we can clear up the mud, Jdog presented information that was evidence that you can clear up the mud, but you walk away claiming victory to yourself without acknowledging anything but yourself. Whatever.
"Debating Creationists on many topics is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory." - Scott D. Weitzenhoffe
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Most people don't but that is why they made the moviemthe rite with Anthony Hopkins this movie like all horror films. Only bring out fear but what do you think?
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I read the actual book "The Rite" awhile ago, and honestly, it was one of the scariest darkest books I've ever read. A priest friend of told me of this book since he knew a few of the priests in the book. If you can really think that possession can exist, regardless of your belief in God, this book will keep you up at night. I know I don't want to be possessed.
I actually enjoy the posts in this thread by people that don't agree with me. I know people like QoN and I will never agree about God and religion, but mostly I can at least respect that she has an opinion that she can stick too. There are people on this board that I will disagree with but constantly bashing people over and over and calling them immature and bashing their non-belief puts one no where close to where they should be with love and respect. Saying you love the bible and Jesus but then turning right around and making fun of someone isn't christian like at all.
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I read the actual book "The Rite" awhile ago, and honestly, it was one of the scariest darkest books I've ever read. A priest friend of told me of this book since he knew a few of the priests in the book. If you can really think that possession can exist, regardless of your belief in God, this book will keep you up at night. I know I don't want to be possessed.
I actually enjoy the posts in this thread by people that don't agree with me. I know people like QoN and I will never agree about God and religion, but mostly I can at least respect that she has an opinion that she can stick too. There are people on this board that I will disagree with but constantly bashing people over and over and calling them immature and bashing their non-belief puts one no where close to where they should be with love and respect. Saying you love the bible and Jesus but then turning right around and making fun of someone isn't christian like at all.
What I don't understand is someone trying to "push" their false doctrine and practices on someone, and then when the person doesn't agree, cuss them out.......I wouldn't call that anything but wrong.
Demon possession is real today, as it was in Jesus time. You will be hard pressed though to find anyone to believe it. It's prevalent with those who dabble in the black arts. However, unless you have the Spirit of God occupying your being, a door can be opened. That's why being filled with the Holy Ghost is so important. The devil cannot occupy the same habitation as the Lord in a person.
I have no love or respect for the professed enemies of God. I don't dance with the devil.
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In response to mattymatt, I don't mind debating non-christians at all, who are of like mind enough to be cordial about it. Even Christians debate differents aspects of their beliefs. What bothers me is when new people come in and want to express what they think about the topic at hand and right away someone comes at them calling their beliefs delusional, fairy tale, silly, etc., instead of questioning why they believe that way, or listing a couple of reasons why they disagree with the person. Name-calling and intimidation are just not the mature and adult way of handling these type of discussions.
Debates often get sparked between the parties; that's why it's a debate. But the discussion part means that everyone should be able to get their point across with reasons why, without being cut-off by the opposer simply calling them and/or their beliefs names. That causes anger to enter the picture and then nobody gets anywhere.
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Right, but we need to turn the other cheek correct? Talking the walk is only one part. Even though I do agree with you, some make me extremely frustrated.
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Mattymatt, turning the other cheek is fine if someone doesn't know any better and they are doing it out of ignorance. However, if someone was Christian, and then does a 180 and now hates everything about God, the Bible, and makes it their prime goal to bash and demean Christians, etc., that's quite another matter. We are not doormats either. Jesus didn't mince any words when he was being pushed in the corner by the false religious leaders or the enemy in His day either.
Jcribb and I have been on the front lines for a long time before you got here. We have been kind, bent over backward, ect, and all it got us was to have it thrown back into our teeth. Like I said, maybe you need to go back and read some past posts of all of us.
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Right, but we need to turn the other cheek correct? Talking the walk is only one part. Even though I do agree with you, some make me extremely frustrated.
Is talking the walk like this:
Mormons are racist and created the sawed off shotgun..........
The KJV Bible doesn't count because it is missing books........
Palin and Rush are idiot warmongering neocons that need to fade away.......
Did you know that Sarah Palin is a personal friend of mine? I lived 16 years in Alaska, and worked with her on a few projects when she was Mayor of Wasilla. You don't know her, and you don't know me. For someone who is willing to point the finger at some Christians that you don't think are right, maybe you better pull the mote from your own eye.
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Facts suck don't they.
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Facts suck don't they.
Especially some of those in the KJV Bible some day..................
Lets just be clear..............what kind of Christian do you profess to be? The minute you spoke against the Word of God, you turned your hand.
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Facts suck don't they.
Please clarify your comment - I'd really like to know which facts you are speaking of and why..........
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In response to mattymatt, I don't mind debating non-christians at all, who are of like mind enough to be cordial about it. Even Christians debate differents aspects of their beliefs. What bothers me is when new people come in and want to express what they think about the topic at hand and right away someone comes at them calling their beliefs delusional, fairy tale, silly, etc., instead of questioning why they believe that way, or listing a couple of reasons why they disagree with the person. Name-calling and intimidation are just not the mature and adult way of handling these type of discussions.
Debates often get sparked between the parties; that's why it's a debate. But the discussion part means that everyone should be able to get their point across with reasons why, without being cut-off by the opposer simply calling them and/or their beliefs names. That causes anger to enter the picture and then nobody gets anywhere.
The best neutral response in fusioncash history.
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qon isn't as hateful as you may think. She doesn't hate g-d because she does not subscribe to g-d existing. She hates that many people latch on to the prospect of g-d and their interpretation of what is written in g-d's book and that they use that interpretation to hold back progress, such as equal rights for women and homosexuals. I tend to agree with her there, even though I am 100% a believer in g-d and the good of g-d... I believe much of the issue lies with many of g-d's followers in that many pick and choose what they wish to subscribe to. Ignoring "judge not" and "turn the other cheek" for favor of condemning lifestyles that they believe are against the holy book, and using that scripture when they go to vote, and choosing to vote to discriminate, which I believe is more sinful than living the life one was born to live.
This is not an attack to any believer here on FC; its just an explanation of how I view things.
As for Sarah Palin... I'd rather not delve into my opinion of her on here, because I'm sure it will not be the most pleasant thing to read. I do believe, though, that she should be held accountable for her actions instead of playing the blame game and acting the victim all the time. She makes all women look bad.
Remember, this is just my opinion.
And, hey Jdog and Annella! I've missed you both!
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
God is not cruel, He is just! And everything He does is for good - And all for His glory!
Here are just a few verses:
Jeremiah 29:11 I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfareb and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose.
Psalm 115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
God is not cruel, He is just! And everything He does is for good - And all for His glory!
Here are just a few verses:
Jeremiah 29:11 I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfareb and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose.
Psalm 115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
Hi lesi! That was a good point with good verses to back it up! Welcome to FC! I hope you enjoy it!
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Demon possession is real today, as it was in Jesus time. You will be hard pressed though to find anyone to believe it. It's prevalent with those who dabble in the black arts. However, unless you have the Spirit of God occupying your being, a door can be opened. That's why being filled with the Holy Ghost is so important. The devil cannot occupy the same habitation as the Lord in a person.
No, demonic possession is not real. Just as AIDS has no cure. You need to really stop with this spreading of delusional thought. You just think it is/does because your concept of reality is superstitiously skewed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder
I have no love or respect for the professed enemies of God.
Well to us, if this is true, you love and respect everyone! ;D
Because people can't be enemies of nothing. I'm just a critic of an old idea that's still around.
I don't dance with the devil.
You've never danced with a Latino? Girl, they can ddaaannnce!
What bothers me is when new people come in and want to express what they think about the topic at hand and right away someone comes at them calling their beliefs delusional, fairy tale, silly, etc., instead of questioning why they believe that way, or listing a couple of reasons why they disagree with the person.
I disagree with the name calling aspect here because-
Delusion- a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
Fairy Tale- an incredible or misleading statement, account, or belief
Silly- absurd; ridiculous; irrational
You'd probably get disgruntled over any of these words within the definitions anyhow. But you and Annella have demonstrated these attributes beyond the call of duty. So, even though I'm really trying to choose my words here and trying not to sound antagonizing, I still expect an emotional uproar of how I'm rude and horrible I am for pointing out the obvious.
Did you know that Sarah Palin is a personal friend of mine?
Extreme flamebait. Careful, Amy.
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Quote from jcribb:
What bothers me is when new people come in and want to express what they think about the topic at hand and right away someone comes at them calling their beliefs delusional, fairy tale, silly, etc., instead of questioning why they believe that way, or listing a couple of reasons why they disagree with the person.
Quote from Falconer:
I disagree with the name calling aspect here because-
Delusion- a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
Fairy Tale- an incredible or misleading statement, account, or belief
Silly- absurd; ridiculous; irrational
You'd probably get disgruntled over any of these words within the definitions anyhow. But you and Annella have demonstrated these attributes beyond the call of duty. So, even though I'm really trying to choose my words here and trying not to sound antagonizing, I still expect an emotional uproar of how I'm rude and horrible I am for pointing out the obvious.
Falconer, I'm not calling you rude and horrible.
This is where the problem lies: I believe in Christ, through faith. Faith is something that you have trust in even though you can't see it. The Bible is God's Word and it explains faith and why we believe. Now to us, professing Christians, it is not a delusion or a fairy tale, nor is it silly. Instead of calling people or their beliefs that, give opposite reasons for why you believe the way you do. There is a poster that discusses their scientific view of things. That's fine - it opens the door for more discussion. But, when a person is immediately cut off and name called, then the other person gets defensive of their view and feels like then they are defending themselves from the name calling itself instead of being able to discuss the opposite person's views, pros and cons, etc. Everyone in this forum has the right to express their view without being trampled on with name calling. They would like the opportunity to discuss What, Why, and How they believe or feel about something. Instead certain ones don't give them the opportunity to do so. That's where my problem lies.
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Quote from jcribb:
What bothers me is when new people come in and want to express what they think about the topic at hand and right away someone comes at them calling their beliefs delusional, fairy tale, silly, etc., instead of questioning why they believe that way, or listing a couple of reasons why they disagree with the person.
Quote from Falconer:
I disagree with the name calling aspect here because-
Delusion- a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
Fairy Tale- an incredible or misleading statement, account, or belief
Silly- absurd; ridiculous; irrational
You'd probably get disgruntled over any of these words within the definitions anyhow. But you and Annella have demonstrated these attributes beyond the call of duty. So, even though I'm really trying to choose my words here and trying not to sound antagonizing, I still expect an emotional uproar of how I'm rude and horrible I am for pointing out the obvious.
Falconer, I'm not calling you rude and horrible.
This is where the problem lies: I believe in Christ, through faith. Faith is something that you have trust in even though you can't see it. The Bible is God's Word and it explains faith and why we believe. Now to us, professing Christians, it is not a delusion or a fairy tale, nor is it silly. Instead of calling people or their beliefs that, give opposite reasons for why you believe the way you do. There is a poster that discusses their scientific view of things. That's fine - it opens the door for more discussion. But, when a person is immediately cut off and name called, then the other person gets defensive of their view and feels like then they are defending themselves from the name calling itself instead of being able to discuss the opposite person's views, pros and cons, etc. Everyone in this forum has the right to express their view without being trampled on with name calling. They would like the opportunity to discuss What, Why, and How they believe or feel about something. Instead certain ones don't give them the opportunity to do so. That's where my problem lies.
EXCELLENT Answer and I agree. Sometimes we just have to say "walk a mile in my shoes"
or "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" - I too am a believer, a Jewish believer and I have no doubt GOD is very real..
but I know too, I have seen miracles that most folks haven't seen.. so I have to stop myself self from being zealous and
try to walk like YESHUA walked, in understanding with a hand out to help in gentleness.
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
This is a suggestion M. - have you read the Bible? I attempted to witness to my son for years, he would get so angry with me. One day he picked up the Bible purely to prove me wrong. He read it once, then he read it twice. That was in 1990. today he writes, sings & plays across the world the Messianic message... The Bible changed him, I did not. I am in prison ministry and write to over a 1000 inmates across America. I can almost tell by the letters who is reading the Bible and who is playing games. We are known by our actions that speak louder than words, and we must walk as our LORD walked or we disgrace HIM. But HE nevers stops loving us. :female:
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Thank you angelhome. I like what you have to say. That walk is hard because of obstacles or people, but with God on our side, we don't have to cower and give in to those kinds of things. :)
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Thank you angelhome. I like what you have to say. That walk is hard because of obstacles or people, but with God on our side, we don't have to cower and give in to those kinds of things. :)
and back to you, thank you. I am encouraged to be able to speak to those who are in doubt. While I have never been in doubt due to parents who kept me in church, read the Bible & prayed one night a week. I was one heck of a back slider. Not understanding how real nor how close GOD was, and being so deeply hurt by father of my children I jumped right into the 'world' - owned & ran 2 beer joints, rode with motor cycle gangs, did dope, had sugar daddies, etc. [today that all seems like a bad dream] but all that has allowed me to see those who have never had GOD in their lives, are so blinded to how real & how good HE is and how HE stands near us pleading for us to use that free will HE provided and turn to HIM. But I am able to see it from both sides and it has put me in this ministry that has greatly blessed me and that blessing flows to those whom I write in prison. so thank you again and as you know, it ain't me, it is all about HIM.
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Thank you angelhome. I like what you have to say. That walk is hard because of obstacles or people, but with God on our side, we don't have to cower and give in to those kinds of things. :)
and back to you, thank you. I am encouraged to be able to speak to those who are in doubt. While I have never been in doubt due to parents who kept me in church, read the Bible & prayed one night a week. I was one heck of a back slider. Not understanding how real nor how close GOD was, and being so deeply hurt by father of my children I jumped right into the 'world' - owned & ran 2 beer joints, rode with motor cycle gangs, did dope, had sugar daddies, etc. [today that all seems like a bad dream] but all that has allowed me to see those who have never had GOD in their lives, are so blinded to how real & how good HE is and how HE stands near us pleading for us to use that free will HE provided and turn to HIM. But I am able to see it from both sides and it has put me in this ministry that has greatly blessed me and that blessing flows to those whom I write in prison. so thank you again and as you know, it ain't me, it is all about HIM.
Thanks for speaking the real my friends. It is music to my ears. Shalom :thumbsup:
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This is where the problem lies: I believe in Christ, through faith. Faith is something that you have trust in even though you can't see it. The Bible is God's Word and it explains faith and why we believe. Now to us, professing Christians, it is not a delusion or a fairy tale, nor is it silly. Instead of calling people or their beliefs that, give opposite reasons for why you believe the way you do.
I have. Many times. Two were that your god and your free will are flawed from the get-go and your Jesus character takes an obvious mythological hero pattern from other myth characters before his time. Nobody really answered them without "you gotta have faith!", which, given the criteria both sides have presented, the christian faith is really just self deception sprinkled with an emotional opiate.
Instead certain ones don't give them the opportunity to do so. That's where my problem lies.
I dont' think you can play the "pushed-around" or "oppressed" card here considering adamant-christian threads are so redundant in D+D; most of which present a very naive stance. When those opinions are praised, myself and others usually step in and introduce the problems (just like in this thread). What I'm starting to see is whenever the word 'faith' is said, us skeptics all suddenly have to back off, be quiet, and pretend what they believe is not destructive (both physically and mentally- stories vary). I mean in this thread alone we were arguing about faith healing! What the heck! You have every right to believe what you want to and I have no problem with that. But when you push for it and regard it as the truth to everyone else, with little to no proof except stories of emotional experiences and deceptive qualities, I'm going to speak up with the truckload of problems present.
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Ok, Falconer, here you go:
Scientific Proof of God – The Evidence
What evidence exists that could prove the existence or non-existence of God? Does God exist?
First, the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.
The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer.
Both direct and indirect evidence for God’s existence are well known and well documented. Nothing in history is better known or better documented than the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We even use the year of His birth as the basis for our calendar. He perfectly matched the over 100 unique Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament regarding His birth, life, death, and resurrection. The laws of probability cannot give us a reasonable explanation for either the Messianic predictions or the resurrection, let alone both by the same person.
Jesus’ miracles were witnessed by many and were documented redundantly for additional corroboration. He was seen by at least 500 people after His resurrection. He was seen ascending into heaven. His transfiguration was seen by Peter, James, and John. His wisdom in dealing with many circumstances was astounding. He never promoted Himself or His miracles. C. S. Lewis stated that He couldn’t have just been a good teacher. He was either a liar, lunatic, or Lord. He didn’t even come close to meeting the profile of a liar or lunatic, so He had to be God.
Jesus Christ also supported the truth of the Old Testament and quoted it many times. Consequently, with Jesus Christ, we have an eyewitness to the truth of the Old Testament. This gives credibility to the creation account and God’s interaction with man. The entire Old Testament account is about how God is trying to have a relationship with man while man is separating himself from God by sin. It tells how God is long-suffering and merciful and ultimately how God sent His Son to die for our sins so God could ultimately have a relationship with us.
God’s interaction with man in the Old Testament was often and powerful. Some of the main interactions included Adam, Cain, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, the Israelites, the prophets, and the kings. In addition to Jesus’ testimony to the truth of the Old Testament, ancient manuscripts, archaeology, and internal consistency also testify to its truth. Consequently, much direct evidence including eyewitness accounts and indirect evidence corroborate the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/scientific-proof-of-god-faq.htm
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Cont.:
Proof of God - Intelligent Design
What would constitute objective proof of God? Well, consider the following self-evident and universally recognized truth: Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer. It's simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself.
We know that design necessitates a designer. In fact, in accordance with this fundamental axiom, design detection methodology is a prerequisite in many fields of human endeavor, including archaeology, anthropology, forensics, criminal jurisprudence, copyright law, patent law, reverse engineering, crypto analysis, random number generation, and SETI. And how do we recognize intelligent design? In general, we find "specified complexity" to be a reliable indicator of the presence of intelligent design. Chance can explain complexity alone but not specification -- a random sequence of letters is complex but not specified (it's meaningless). A Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified (it's meaningful). We can't have a Shakespearean sonnet without Shakespeare. (William A. Dembski, The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities, 1998.)
Proof of God - Nature
So where's the proof of God's existence? In accordance with our familiar axiom and in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics and information theory, the proof of God is all around us!
Through the microscope, we observe the E. coli bacterial flagellum. The bacterial flagellum is what propels E. coli bacteria through its microscopic world. It consists of about 40 individual protein parts including a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It's a microscopic outboard motor! The individual parts come into focus when magnified 50,000 times (using electron micrographs). And even though these microscopic outboard motors run at an incredible 100,000 rpm, they can stop on a microscopic dime. It takes only a quarter turn for them to stop, shift directions and start spinning 100,000 rpm in the opposite direction! The flagellar motor has two gears (forward and reverse), is water-cooled, and is hardwired into a signal transduction (sensory mechanism) so that it receives feedback from its environment. ("Unlocking the Mystery of Life," video documentary by Illustra Media, 2002.)
When we apply the general principles of detecting specified complexity to biologic systems (living creatures), we find it reasonable to infer the presence intelligent design. Take, for example, the bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not convenient that we've given these parts these names - that's truly their function. If you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, machine, toy or model, you would recognize them as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect an outboard motor -- much less one as incredible as the flagellar motor -- to be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. Motors are the product of intelligent design.
Furthermore, the E. coli bacterial flagellum simply could not have evolved gradually over time. The bacterial flagellum is an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. There is absolutely no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the bacterial flagellum. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, 1996.)
The bacterial flagellum (not to mention the irreducibly complex molecular machines responsible for the flagellum's assembly) is just one example of the specified complexity that pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." (Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1986, p. 250.)
Proof of God - His Fingerprints are Everywhere
Where is the proof of God? If we're willing to open our eyes, we'll see the fingerprints of God all around us and all throughout us. Our very existence proves the existence of a Creator God.
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/proof-of-god.htm
There is no way I can explain everything that was put on here. That's why I used this information. It explains in detail what I would mess up trying to say.
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Thank you angelhome. I like what you have to say. That walk is hard because of obstacles or people, but with God on our side, we don't have to cower and give in to those kinds of things. :)
and back to you, thank you. I am encouraged to be able to speak to those who are in doubt. While I have never been in doubt due to parents who kept me in church, read the Bible & prayed one night a week. I was one heck of a back slider. Not understanding how real nor how close GOD was, and being so deeply hurt by father of my children I jumped right into the 'world' - owned & ran 2 beer joints, rode with motor cycle gangs, did dope, had sugar daddies, etc. [today that all seems like a bad dream] but all that has allowed me to see those who have never had GOD in their lives, are so blinded to how real & how good HE is and how HE stands near us pleading for us to use that free will HE provided and turn to HIM. But I am able to see it from both sides and it has put me in this ministry that has greatly blessed me and that blessing flows to those whom I write in prison. so thank you again and as you know, it ain't me, it is all about HIM.
Thanks for speaking the real my friends. It is music to my ears. Shalom :thumbsup:
Thank you, SCarter. You have quite a testimony that I'm sure wasn't easy to share. The Lord has blessed your ministry and you as well. Keep up the wonderful work! :)
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Quoting a creationist site? This'll be fun! ;D
The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer.
The world's design is far from perfect and full of problems. In fact the 'creation' of it must of been pretty half-assed considering all the disasters (as we label them) that strike (including large meteors that can obliterate countries- Tunguska for example). It's an extremely fragile planet that takes very bad strikes once in a while. And the fact that life has been seen and documented to evolve from random natural processes only hurts this argument. I will tell you if you're arguing for intelliegent design, you will lose this debate. ID supports the idea of a god. Not your defined specific god with magical powers and a grand quirky plan. This means that even if ID is correct, you're still left with an infinite amount of possibilites to this metaphysical beings characteristics.
tl;dnr = An argument for a god? Yes, it's debatable as far as I know. An argument for YOUR god? Furthest from.
The laws of probability cannot give us a reasonable explanation for either the Messianic predictions or the resurrection, let alone both by the same person.
I've never seen any well-documented proof from anyone that is not a christian-- CS Lewis was never an atheist as he claimed he was. I've read a bit of his stuff. These paragraphs are completely biased as they do not take into account the other mythical messiahs from both before and during your protagonist's time. The fact that it comes from a creationist site kinda hurts the legitimacy anyway since it seems to avoid them. Dionysus' story is ridiculously close to that of Jesus. Check it out. Also check out Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern.
The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer. It's simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself.
Remember-- looking at designs as intelligent is within the eye of the beholder. People used to look at fire and lightening as proof of god. But we found those to have natural processes. Of course we can keep attaching god down the line of processes until we get into ad infinitum, but that's a very cheap argument and is in favor of my beliefs rather than yours. This is because through history science has destroyed superstitious concepts left and right. Even today this is the case. You think it will ever change? The probability is 100% in favor of no so far. The only thing left here is faith, but that isn't proof. With the past and current evidence, rationally it just amounts to deception.
Proof of God - Nature
When we apply the general principles of detecting specified complexity to biologic systems (living creatures), we find it reasonable to infer the presence intelligent design.
No it does not. I've heard this example before actually. It amounts to this whole thing just being a cheap watchmaker analogy. No offense, but I doubt you know about anything you posted here considering you just copy/pasted. Unless you can explain why this favors intelligent design rather than it's fair contestant of natural selection and time, we really shouldn't go any further.
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Falconer, I will continue researching my answers to rebutt your remarks. I am just amazed how you will even disagree with professionals on this issue. I do not appreciate you telling me that I probably know nothing about what I responded to you with. You are absolutely wrong with that. One more thing, I will go further if I choose. If you don't want to continue this discussion about ID because you think there is not further proof, then that is your decision. I will not be cut off because you say so. It sounds as if the deeper we get into this, the more concerned you are that there will be evidence that you can't say you disagree with. I will return.....
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Falconer, I will continue researching my answers to rebutt your remarks. I am just amazed how you will even disagree with professionals on this issue. I do not appreciate you telling me that I probably know nothing about what I responded to you with. You are absolutely wrong with that. One more thing, I will go further if I choose. If you don't want to continue this discussion about ID because you think there is not further proof, then that is your decision. I will not be cut off because you say so. It sounds as if the deeper we get into this, the more concerned you are that there will be evidence that you can't say you disagree with. I will return.....
Hopefully with your own words and not someone elses. And I'm not concerned of you finding something I cannot disagree with. That would be great, actually! I've been in the arguments a lot and I always see the same stuff.
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Falconer,
First I would like to ask you some questions. After that, I will go further.
** Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?
** Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?
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Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?
On a human scale? Being a compatibilist with this philosophical question, "both" is my answer. :)
Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?
Wut.
Do you really think this is a simple agree/disagree question? Remember, I'm agnostic. Being only human, you and I are not in a position to answer this question. I'm not here to assert anything. It's not that I don't want to answer your question here-- I wish I could. I just can't because I don't know.
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Sorry I had to go Jcribb. Getting someone through unexpected life happenings.
Some have really "put it out there" and met with the same scorn as always. To God be all the Glory, because it's His anyway.....in ALL things. Whoever it was that told of her backsliding and getting back to God, that was a beautiful testimony! May God keep you and bless you. You can rest assured that God gave you the victory.
While I understand that there are answers that some seek on here, others are just wanting an argument. It's the same questions over and over again, and the same answers over and over again. There's no goal to this debate, discussion, argument, etc. There's nothing new being discussed. However, time will prove all things......everything.
I came in here to help a sister, but she is strong. I will leave as I came.
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Falconer, I will continue researching my answers to rebutt your remarks. I am just amazed how you will even disagree with professionals on this issue. I do not appreciate you telling me that I probably know nothing about what I responded to you with. You are absolutely wrong with that. One more thing, I will go further if I choose. If you don't want to continue this discussion about ID because you think there is not further proof, then that is your decision. I will not be cut off because you say so. It sounds as if the deeper we get into this, the more concerned you are that there will be evidence that you can't say you disagree with. I will return.....
I hope your research involves the Bible? that is the only Book that lives and issues life, power, security, & eternal life... but it does not issue by law - Only by HIS Spirit... The wise still seek HIM.
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I've known people to ask God for confirmation about one thing or the other. Not tell anyone, just in their heart, and God answered them. Something that needs divine intervention or it won't get fixed. Not something for gain like "If you give me X amount of dollars by such and such of date".......you won't see squat because you asked incorrectly.
Uh, they obviously told you...right? lol
"What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:
Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.
We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.
Will anything happen? No. Of course not.
This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and God will answer your prayers. And Christians believe Jesus -- according to this recent article, "54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true." In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%.
If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
If "nothing will be impossible to you", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying.
In Matthew 21:21:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
If "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should dissappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."
The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
If God says, "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying.
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:
"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
Look at how direct this statement is: "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." This is the "Son of God" speaking. Have we taken him "too literally?" No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement "out of context?" No - Jesus uses the word anyone. Yet Jesus' statement is obviously false. Because when we ask God to cure cancer tonight, nothing happens.
We see the same thing over and over again...
In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
In Mark 9:23:
All things are possible to him who believes.
In Luke 1:37:
For with God nothing will be impossible.
Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible. Yet, when we pray to eliminate cancer, nothing happens.
And keep in mind that this is Jesus talking here. These are not the words of human beings. These are not the words of "inspired" human beings. These are supposedly the words of God himself, incarnated in a human body. Jesus is supposed to be a perfect, sinless being. And yet, it is obvious that Jesus is lying. What Jesus says is clearly incorrect.
Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect.
When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth.
Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer,
he is clearly lying.
If you would like additional proof, gather a million faithful believers together into a giant prayer circle. Have them all pray together in Jesus' name that God cures every case of cancer on the planet tomorrow. Pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Now, we certainly have two or more people gathered together, and they have asked in Jesus' name, and we have not one but a million faithful believers who, by definition, have faith and believe. We have fulfilled every one of Jesus' requirements.
Will Jesus answer the prayer now? Of course not. Your prayer will go unanswered, in direct defiance to Jesus' promises in the Bible. In fact, if you pray for anything that is impossible, your prayer will always go unanswered."
Source: http://www.godisimaginary.com/i1.htm
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No....you think.....qon. You'r not a hypocrite. You'r the Atheist in the bunch that use to be a Christian. I'd call that a turncoat....a Judas. Too harsh, or true? Quit putting down new people because they have something to say...Your are the most abrasive miserable person I've ever known to post on a forum.
What's with this "You'r"? lol
Are ex Nazis hypocrites? Ex alcoholics? Ex anything that was bad and wrong, but the person recovered from it? And calling me Judas is the equivalent of me calling you the Tooth Fairy.
I'm not putting down "new people" because they have something to say. It makes no difference to me the number of posts someone has under their belt. If they present an argument that is the equivalent of a 6 year old trying to prove the existence of their invisible friend, they're going to get called on it.
You sure are one to talk when accusing me of being "miserable and abrasive". It is you who has made the enemies recently, not me. I don't have to go around badmouthing you like you do to me for people to see who you really are. You've created this role for yourself where you scold everyone who disagrees with you.
Just one recent example of the Attack of Annella, to JessieKateRose in http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=23383.msg302046#msg302046 :
"Uh, if the above is an "ESSAY", then essays have certainly changed since I've been back to school. However....news flash, this is a public forum where things are posted. I don't know what you think you are gaining by this hissy fit your throwing, but you have (in this thread) accused me of deleting my posts, when in actuality I only deleted one, because I made a mistake posting to another person in error and was correcting it. You come in every 10 or so posts to flame me to someone I'm talking to or to say something negative about me, and I have no idea why. Get over yourself and move on. You are acting immature. Now, get rid of the resentment over whatever you thought I did. Grow up.
...Really, let it drop or grow up, preferably both."
Hmm, I'm seeing a lot of sarcasm, miserableness, abrasiveness, and bitchiness here. The exact same things you accuse anyone who challenges you of. Except for the *bleep* part, becos thats a bad werd yew guuyys! And Annella doesn't say bad werds!
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Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.
Hmm, really? Then why are there thousands of different religions and ideas of god?
And "irreducible complexity" is a myth. The parts of the human eye, for example, don't all have to be there in the beginning to have a crude version of sight.
@amyrouse: Thanks for the support! Yes my style is blunt and passionate, but I'm truly not trying to hurt anyone like Annella thinks I am. Think of it more as trying to shake sense into people.
@Falconer: I want to quote so many of the things you say and reinforce how awesome they are, but I don't want to look like I'm kissing *bleep*. It's always really annoying to see others quote a whole wall of text and only add a thumbs up emote, like they're showing support simply because that person is from the same camp as them. Just know I am turning over my unused worship abilities and directing them at your posts!
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Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?
On a human scale? Being a compatibilist with this philosophical question, "both" is my answer. :)
Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?
Wut.
Do you really think this is a simple agree/disagree question? Remember, I'm agnostic. Being only human, you and I are not in a position to answer this question. I'm not here to assert anything. It's not that I don't want to answer your question here-- I wish I could. I just can't because I don't know.
Now you are doing what you say we, as Christians, are doing - not giving a direct answer. Do you think the universe just happened for no reason whatsoever, or that there was a reason? I can't go further until you give me your yes or no answer. I'm trying to build up to prove where ID and God are there.
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** Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?
** Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?
Q1. Your question is flawed because you DON'T agree with it! You guys believe god has just always existed and has no cause, which is breaking your own rules. You have zero proof for this, you just assert it.
Ignoring the major flaw of your question, yes there was a cause for this current universe. That cause was the Big Bang. This has been proven and even recently replicated. What came before the Big Bang is not yet know. But even when we do find out, there will be no pleasing you people because then you will just want to know what came before that.
Again I ask, how does a magic god trump card solve ANYTHING when it comes to this question? You're content believing that god could have always existed without knowing how, but not content with the much more likely option that it was the elements necessary for universes that have always existed? Say whaaaaaat?
Q2. This *current* universe began to exist, yes. And we already know that it will one day die. It's quite possible that universes have been collapsing and being born on end, and this is the one that we happen to be in. It's also possible that there were no universes before this one. That does not say by any means that a god kicked it off, though.
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@Falconer: I want to quote so many of the things you say and reinforce how awesome they are, but I don't want to look like I'm kissing *bleep*. It's always really annoying to see others quote a whole wall of text and only add a thumbs up emote, like they're showing support simply because that person is from the same camp as them. Just know I am turning over my unused worship abilities and directing them at your posts!
:thumbsup:
OH! I mean-- Very cool. And yeah, though I do it very occasionally for more trivial threads, I do find it cheap to do the same thing. One should explain why they feel the same way.
Now you are doing what you say we, as Christians, are doing - not giving a direct answer.
I gave you a direct answer for 1. #1 was directed at causality, so the only direct answer with what I believe is 'both'. This isn't a black or white question.
Do you think the universe just happened for no reason whatsoever, or that there was a reason? I can't go further until you give me your yes or no answer. I'm trying to build up to prove where ID and God are there.
Ah okay. I must have not really been thinking about it too hard at 2:30 AM. But yes, this universe began to exist in the way we conceptualize existence. Was there a reason? What came before it? I don't know.
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Quote from queenofnines:
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Notice He said "...if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed..."
First, the mustard seed is extremely small to begin with. Then Jesus says that, "...if you have faith as a GRAIN of mustard seed..." That is enough to show us how hard it is for many people to just have faith to first trust in Him, not to mention asking for big things. The mustard plant then grows to a remarkable size in comparison to the original mustard seed. This represents Christians then growing in their faith to be able to do remarkable things of the Lord. [Mark 4:30-32, Luke 13:18-20].
This, in turn, leads to the AMOUNT of faith it takes to ask Jesus to do what we consider the impossible. This is considered to be PURE faith, meaning absolutely NO doubt or disbelief that it will happen when you ask Jesus, hence, the mustard seed. It is usually the doubt or disbelief that gives us the failure of faith, not the faith itself. [Luke 17:5-6; Mark 11:23; Matthew 21:21, Matthew 17:20.] To combat this, you have to increase your time of praying with God. You have to completely focus on the issue at hand, shedding the worldly influence and totally depend on God. An example of this would be when Peter walked on the water to Jesus. As long as he kept his eyes on Jesus (straight ahead and focused,) he was able to do just that. As soon as he looked down and actually saw what he was doing, he lost contact with Jesus and started sinking.
You also need to surround yourself with like believers of faith in Jesus. Scoffers are part of the wordly influence and are not helping the situation by scoffing and interrupting what you are trying to ask. This is what the devil likes and encourages. He's the stumbling block that causes us to go on the defense, so to speak, instead of being on the offense.
Another thing I would like to add is that God answers in different aspects for His own reasons that either we may never know or we may know when we meet Him in eternity:
1. He answers yes.
2. He answers no.
3. He answers "later" or "not at this time."
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Sorry I had to go Jcribb. Getting someone through unexpected life happenings.
Some have really "put it out there" and met with the same scorn as always. To God be all the Glory, because it's His anyway.....in ALL things. Whoever it was that told of her backsliding and getting back to God, that was a beautiful testimony! May God keep you and bless you. You can rest assured that God gave you the victory.
While I understand that there are answers that some seek on here, others are just wanting an argument. It's the same questions over and over again, and the same answers over and over again. There's no goal to this debate, discussion, argument, etc. There's nothing new being discussed. However, time will prove all things......everything.
I came in here to help a sister, but she is strong. I will leave as I came.
I agree. Hey, you don't have to leave!!! Your comments and reflections are very important in here! :) :heart:
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Falconer, I will continue researching my answers to rebutt your remarks. I am just amazed how you will even disagree with professionals on this issue. I do not appreciate you telling me that I probably know nothing about what I responded to you with. You are absolutely wrong with that. One more thing, I will go further if I choose. If you don't want to continue this discussion about ID because you think there is not further proof, then that is your decision. I will not be cut off because you say so. It sounds as if the deeper we get into this, the more concerned you are that there will be evidence that you can't say you disagree with. I will return.....
I hope your research involves the Bible? that is the only Book that lives and issues life, power, security, & eternal life... but it does not issue by law - Only by HIS Spirit... The wise still seek HIM.
Yes, that is the only and best there is!! :)
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** Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?
** Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?
Q1. Your question is flawed because you DON'T agree with it! You guys believe god has just always existed and has no cause, which is breaking your own rules. You have zero proof for this, you just assert it.
Ignoring the major flaw of your question, yes there was a cause for this current universe. That cause was the Big Bang. This has been proven and even recently replicated. What came before the Big Bang is not yet know. But even when we do find out, there will be no pleasing you people because then you will just want to know what came before that.
Again I ask, how does a magic god trump card solve ANYTHING when it comes to this question? You're content believing that god could have always existed without knowing how, but not content with the much more likely option that it was the elements necessary for universes that have always existed? Say whaaaaaat?
Q2. This *current* universe began to exist, yes. And we already know that it will one day die. It's quite possible that universes have been collapsing and being born on end, and this is the one that we happen to be in. It's also possible that there were no universes before this one. That does not say by any means that a god kicked it off, though.
queenofnines:
Please stop answering my questions for me. My questions are NOT flawed and I DO believe in them. How am I going to try and give Falconer an answer to his question if you FLAW what I'm trying to do. You want people to answer but yet when we try you are trying to cut it off. Don't you really want to know these answers or are you afraid it will knock your disbelief out in left field?
You answered the second question that "yes, the *current* ('as you call it') universe began to exist." Thank you.
Now, if you would, please answer the first question, "Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?"
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Quote from jcribb:
Do you think the universe just happened for no reason whatsoever, or that there was a reason? I can't go further until you give me your yes or no answer. I'm trying to build up to prove where ID and God are there.
Quote from Falconer:
Ah okay. I must have not really been thinking about it too hard at 2:30 AM. But yes, this universe began to exist in the way we conceptualize existence. Was there a reason? What came before it? I don't know.
Thank you for answering. Now, if the universe began to exist, then there had to be a cause for its existence to come into place. Do you agree or disagree? Remember, that space and time have to be a part of this coming of the universe.
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Thank you for answering. Now, if the universe began to exist, then there had to be a cause for its existence to come into place. Do you agree or disagree?
Bah I just wrote a paragraph and accidentally closed the window. So I'll try to recall what I wrote-
Remember, that space and time have to be a part of this coming of the universe
The best answer I can give you is possibly. This is an extremely broad question, and considering we can't even go beyond the first 4 dimensions is the reason why I can't give a good answer to you. There may have been universes or multiverses before ours and they simply recycled eachother infinitely (another word we cannot grasp), so origin or cause has no place within this question. There may have been nothing at all and existence was a fluke and will never have a good explanation. Or maybe a horny metaphysical alien being ejaculated into dead space and created matter.
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Thank you for answering. Now, if the universe began to exist, then there had to be a cause for its existence to come into place. Do you agree or disagree?
Bah I just wrote a paragraph and accidentally closed the window. So I'll try to recall what I wrote-
Remember, that space and time have to be a part of this coming of the universe
The best answer I can give you is possibly. This is an extremely broad question, and considering we can't even pass through the first 4 dimensions is the reason why I can't give a good answer to you. There may have been universes or multiverses before ours and they simply recycled eachother infinitely (another word we cannot grasp), so origin or cause has no place within this question. There may have been nothing at all and existence was a fluke and will never have a good explanation. Or maybe a horny metaphysical alien being ejaculated into dead space and created matter.
Before I go any further, would you actually believe your last 2 reasons over say, the Big Bang Theory," or God's creation?
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Jesus says that, "...if you have faith as a GRAIN of mustard seed..." That is enough to show us how hard it is for many people to just have faith to first trust in Him, not to mention asking for big things.
*Scratches head* You are claiming that having faith the size of a mustard seed is hard? You are also claiming by default that the millions (if not billions) of people who have prayed for a cure for cancer or similar, not one of them had genuine faith? Please.
What the quote is in reality, courtesy of my hubby: You can have faith the size of a mountain, but you won't be able to move a mustard seed.
I feel like you did nothing but skim the genius piece on prayer, because it addressed everything you are saying here.
Another thing I would like to add is that God answers in different aspects for His own reasons that either we may never know or we may know when we meet Him in eternity:
1. He answers yes.
2. He answers no.
3. He answers "later" or "not at this time."
No disrespect, but you can get the same results from praying to a jug of milk.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3#p/c/A0C3C1D163BE880A/3/hf5q6VFn17o (starting at 6:08)
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I don't believe anything unless there's some decent amount of evidence for it. The Big Bang has a lot of evidence. I can see the results with my own eyes- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WMAP_2010.png so the probability of it actually happening way back then is very high. Sure there's a few problems and, because I wasn't there, I cannot 100% guarentee it. But with the amazing and overwhelming evidence we have, I see no reason not to.
My nihilist idea and alien idea are just speculations. It's on the same level as any idea for a god. Anything I come up with is just a legitimate as the previous speculation.
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queenofnines,
You are the one missing the point, skimming the surface, as you say. As many people who are dying from, say, cancer, *there are just as many who overcome the cancer. Some prayed for those miracles, others didn't.
I want to clarify to you that Jesus, Himself, uses the mustard seed faith, not me. I was sharing how He uses it and how the quantity of faith parallels the size of the mustard seed. You don't have to believe it since you don't believe in God or His Word, since that's where the mustard seed scenario comes from. A person who refutes God the way you do is not open to wanting to understand that kind of faith.
* I would like to add here that I don't have statistics for this. I know what I've heard from both Christians and non-Christians alike. I am speaking of family and/or relatives and friends who have had cancer and overcame it, those who have, unfortunately died from it, and those who have gotten it 2 or 3 times and still overcame it. Whatever the outcome, those people struggled and struggle today, whether we pray or not. Whatever happens is God's will and His business of what He's trying to accomplish and I hope one day to understand why things happened the way they did and how it affected decisions and events down the road.
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I don't believe anything unless there's some decent amount of evidence for it. The Big Bang has a lot of evidence. I can see the results with my own eyes- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WMAP_2010.png so the probability of it actually happening way back then is very high. Sure there's a few problems and, because I wasn't there, I cannot 100% guarentee it. But with the amazing and overwhelming evidence we have, I see no reason not to.
My nihilist idea and alien idea are just speculations. It's on the same level as any idea for a god. Anything I come up with is just a legitimate as the previous speculation.
Then so is God's creation, as a speculation, as well. I will continue later. I have to meet my daughter-in-law half way from where we both live, to drop off our granddaughters, who spent the weekend with us.
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Then so is God's creation, as a speculation, as well. I will continue later. I have to meet my daughter-in-law half way from where we both live, to drop off our granddaughters, who spent the weekend with us.
Ah cool. Alright! Have a good time.
But to continue this- just remember that speculation is not based on evidence or proof. It's just consideration of any idea presented. Example being if aliens came down to earth, would they be allergic to our water? That's a speculative question that could result in a debate. There's no proof for aliens and, because of that, there's no proof of the allergy. It's quite a stretch.
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Then so is God's creation, as a speculation, as well. I will continue later. I have to meet my daughter-in-law half way from where we both live, to drop off our granddaughters, who spent the weekend with us.
Ah cool. Alright! Have a good time.
But to continue this- just remember that speculation is not based on evidence or proof. It's just consideration of any idea presented. Example being if aliens came down to earth, would they be allergic to our water? That's a speculative question that could result in a debate. There's no proof for aliens and, because of that, there's no proof of the allergy. It's quite a stretch.
I am trying to work my way into showing you how God's creation is based on evidence or proof, through Intelligent Design. The Big Bang Theory is a man-made conclusion. So you are saying you back the idea that the universe, including time and space, just ''banged'' and ''poof''; and that this perfect universe with sky, ground, stars, waters, etc., appeared out of nowhere? And then people evolved from what: animals, flowers etc.? Do you know how odd that sounds? But yet, you can't entertain the idea that this perfect being was, is, and will be, actually created the universe, with no constrainsts of time and space; created people from the dust of the ground; that these people can speak or hear, or talk, or feel,,,,
Will continue .....
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continued...
For anything to have a design, there has to be a designer. Examples include architect's plans, art, forensics, motors, archaeology, the "brain" of a computer, etc. Chance (a Big Bang) can explain complexity alone but not specification. Specification would have to have a designer to make these specifics. A great example of this would be a study of bacterial cells (for this example I am going to use a quote by a molecular biologist), (I am writing this next statement in bold because of how important this is to proving a creator being (God.):
Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." (Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1986, p. 250.)
Information definitely requires intelligence. Also, design requires a designer. That is not representative of the "Big Bang" theory. But it does support creation by a creator (God.)
Another thing to look at is how the universe is ordered by natural laws. Where did these laws come from and what purpose do they serve? I sure don't see how a "Big Bang" theory can just automatically have these laws imbedded in its "poof, universe and people are made" scenario. Those laws had to be designed by a designer.
Another question. Who gave us our conscience? Just knowing how our brain is put together and works like it does could not have happened without a designer and without intelligence.
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The Big Bang Theory is a man-made conclusion. So you are saying you back the idea that the universe, including time and space, just ''banged'' and ''poof''; and that this perfect universe with sky, ground, stars, waters, etc., appeared out of nowhere?
First off- the Big Bang has been proven. It has met all the requirements and challenges of being a real past event. If you're curious as to know what the proof is, this video explains it brilliantly-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PqJ2eEzD3o
The word 'perfect' is used extremely loosely here. This universe is pretty chaotic and violent if you look into it. We are but one species on a grain of sand within a seemingly infinite beach. Do I back the idea of existence poofing out of no where? No. But this is speculation; I don't really back any of the speculative ideas I could plop on the table because there's a lack of evidence for any of them. If I were to, it would just be due to emotion. Like I've stated before- I'm in no position to assert any assumptions.
And then people evolved from what: animals, flowers etc.? Do you know how odd that sounds?
Not odd at all considering the ancient and mythological story alternatives. We came from more primitive forms of life and there is very strong evidence to support that. Life grows and attempts to better itself. Micro and macroevolution have been proven. But of course the further we get back, it gets harder to find complete evidence of things on this world. I'm pretty sure you can figure out a few reasons why. Abiogenesis, as far as I know, offers a very interesting explanation with some evidence but it still has some big holes in it. Does that mean we should just toss it out the window? No. As we discover more evidence, we add it to the collection, experiment with it, and see how it fits. Of course you're going to run into problems along the way. Problems like these are good in science. It's solving mysteries, and I support that.
For anything to have a design, there has to be a designer. Examples include architect's plans, art, forensics, motors, archaeology, the "brain" of a computer, etc.
Cheap watchmaker analogy. It ain't workin' here. This author should get in touch with natural selection (the thing we can see with our eyes) and stop pulling the god card left and right. Life starts in a basic form and becomes more complex.
I sure don't see how a "Big Bang" theory can just automatically have these laws imbedded in its "poof, universe and people are made" scenario. Those laws had to be designed by a designer.
Waitwaitwait..."poof, universe and people are made"? I'd say the bible fits this description with the whole *poof* thing considering it's just 6 days for everything to pop into existence. Us nonbelievers think it's billions upon billions of years.
Who gave us our conscience? Just knowing how our brain is put together and works like it does could not have happened without a designer and without intelligence.
Our conscience is one of the major reasons we've made it so far. Evolution created it slowly, over thousands of years, and I enjoy how far it's come. We evolved with heightened intelligence to our species name and fortunately that was a good trait to keep passing on and teaching (face it- we're no tiger or bear. Brains b4 braun). You'll see the same traits in a lot of mammals. It told us to stick together, and as it did this, we developed morals and ethics to guide ourselves by. And even today we still don't know everything about the brain, so fortunately there's still a lot to learn why we do the things we do.
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I wanted to post this link, because I think it might add another dimension to this discussion:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11711228
I have to say, I like the turn the discussion has taken. I absolutely love how this discussion, while heated, has remained civil for the last couple of pages. Keep it up, Jcribb and Falconer!
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Quote from jcribb:
The Big Bang Theory is a man-made conclusion. So you are saying you back the idea that the universe, including time and space, just ''banged'' and ''poof''; and that this perfect universe with sky, ground, stars, waters, etc., appeared out of nowhere?
Quote from Falconer:
First off- the Big Bang has been proven. It has met all the requirements and challenges of being a real past event. If you're curious as to know what the proof is, this video explains it brilliantly-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PqJ2eEzD3o
Regarding the Big Bang Theory:
1. To question you from above, then how do the scientists explain the uneven distribution of original matter that results in "voids" and "clumps?"
**I have not gotten any clear answer on this.
2. Why don't the scientists address these questions: Where did everything come from?; Did anything explode into bits?; How did this explosion cause order, while every other explosion observed in actual history causes only disorder and disarray?
**I honestly don't see any evidence or proof of order in your scenario. However, God, the Intelligent Designer, caused order, when He created the world one day at a time.
3. It has been said that the Big Bang violates two out of three Laws of Thermodynamics.
A. I don't understand some of this but I know it has to do with retrograde motion that disagrees with the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_motion); (http://www.suite101.com/content/law-of-angular-momentum-conservation-in-physics-a180161)
B. Macroevolution is ( "used to refer to any evolutionary change at or above the level of species.") ("It means at least the splitting of a species into two (speciation, or cladogenesis, from the Greek meaning "the origin of a branch", see Fig. 1) or the change of a species over time into another (anagenetic speciation, not nowadays generally accepted). Any changes that occur at higher levels, such as the evolution of new families, phyla or genera, are also therefore macroevolution, but the term is not restricted to those higher levels. It often also means long-term trends or biases in evolution of higher taxonomic levels.") This quote is courtesy of: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html#what
**Macroevolution has been proved false by the lack of transitional fossils in the fossil record.
**Why is genetic mutation so dangerous, if the Bang and evolution seemed to happen and evolve so easily? I still haven't heard or seen a favorable mutation take place.
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To question you from above, then how do the scientists explain the uneven distribution of original matter that results in "voids" and "clumps?"
Are you expecting completely symmetrical and 'humanly-orderly' results from an explosion? Surely you'll get your basic expectations from any explosion (a burst of energy from a source, expansion, maybe a crater afterwards, etc.), but there will be a lot of chaos happening within the matter that's practically unpredictable.
Why don't the scientists address these questions: Where did everything come from?; Did anything explode into bits?; How did this explosion cause order, while every other explosion observed in actual history causes only disorder and disarray?
1.) They don't know where every little thing came from. That's the point of science-- to find out.
2.) I'm not sure what you mean.
3.) Humans are just used to explosions being disorderly due to war footage and the like. Like I explained above, explosions are orderly in their own way. You have a small amount of energy expanding rapidly. You can expect the energy to extend away from its original point, but predicting where the energy will go is very difficult because you have energies repelling and merging with eachother. 1 particle effects the other, and then those 2 effect 5, and those 5 effect 16...etc. etc. Ultimately the ends justify the means in this case though-- us. I imagine this will eventually extend to the whole common "we came from stardust" tag that we have all talked about in other threads.
It has been said that the Big Bang violates two out of three Laws of Thermodynamics.
As far as I know, it does not. You can only go so far with me on this though. I'm not some theoretical physicist here. But I will say that the Big Bang model does have some random problems in which the whole scientific community has trouble underlining. Nothing is perfect.
Macroevolution has been proved false by the lack of transitional fossils in the fossil record
Well that's a pretty blind statement. That's like saying
"There are no cookies in this house, but I only found 3."
"Did you look everywhere?"
"No, but I'm sure there's still no cookies in this house so we should stop looking."
Macroevolution is true because there are transitional fossils. Technically every fossil is transitional. The ones that fill the gaps in the fossil record are just very rare unfortunately. :(
Why is genetic mutation so dangerous, if the Bang and evolution seemed to happen and evolve so easily?
There is nothing easy with any of the terms used here. Life's a *bleep*! I'm just content with how well off I am right now considering a lot of the junk going on in the world. I get to argue with people from across the country via keyboard. Neato.
(http://imgsrv.gocomics.com/dim/?fh=f089e941b05da97eb51bf9e7ee3771da)
I still haven't heard or seen a favorable mutation take place.
Sickle-cell anemia WAS a favorable mutation up until our life-expectancy skyrocketed from 20-25 yrs to 80+. Malaria is a deadly,horrible, and extremely rampant disease. Especially in Africa. Many people get it-- especially in more tribal areas. Malaria has difficulty killing certain people off due to the (sickle-cell) mutation in their blood that gives them an exponentially stronger resistance to malaria. They live on and most of the other malaria-infected die off. Therefore it ensures that people with this genetic trait live on and breed. Now, due to our amazing medical technologies, Sickle-cell is more of an enemy because it kills its carrier off at around the age of 45.
I absolutely love how this discussion, while heated, has remained civil for the last couple of pages. Keep it up, Jcribb and Falconer!
OMG *bleep* OR GET OUT ZOMG LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
...I mean...Thanks!!!
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
How are you going to find out? Will you read the Bible or what is your plan? I once heard of a person that was an atheist, he too was interested in finding out if God existed. After he read and studied the Bible for a full year; he came to the conclusion that God did exist.
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I absolutely love how this discussion, while heated, has remained civil for the last couple of pages. Keep it up, Jcribb and Falconer!
OMG *bleep* OR GET OUT ZOMG LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
...I mean...Thanks!!!
Someone has been trolling 4chan too much, methinks. ;)
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When all answers and questions come from creationist websites, there will never be a 'favorable' answer given as to how things actually came into being. Is anyone on here, myself included, a nuclear physicist able to explain theories of redshift, collisional bonding of molecules, gravitational clustering that produces mass as a result of an explosion, etc. in such a way to be understood and thus a refute to creation and proof of evolution? No, plain and simple. Each side states it's opinions, as it has been done for many years and the sides look at each other and say....??? I will say it has been a very civil and adult convo though, good on ya, and keep it going!
Sorry so late on this, haven't caught up until now, but love you too Falconer, hi "Sister in Warped Thinking" Amy, and hello Sheryl (saw that in some thread)! ;)
I edited to remove the link/pic that changed itself. Maybe it was a hint - ;)
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When all answers and questions come from creationist websites, there will never be a 'favorable' answer given as to how things actually came into being. Is anyone on here, myself included, a nuclear physicist able to explain theories of redshift, collisional bonding of molecules, gravitational clustering that produces mass as a result of an explosion, etc. in such a way to be understood and thus a refute to creation and proof of evolution? No, plain and simple. Each side states it's opinions, as it has been done for many years and the sides look at each other and say....(http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/bsflag.gif) I will say it has been a very civil and adult convo though, good on ya, and keep it going!
Sorry so late on this, haven't caught up until now, but love you too Falconer, hi "Sister in Warped Thinking" Amy, and hello Sheryl (saw that in some thread)! ;)
So, then, Creation is just as much a possibility as Big Bang, etc. I choose Creation.
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I wanted to post this link, because I think it might add another dimension to this discussion:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11711228
I have to say, I like the turn the discussion has taken. I absolutely love how this discussion, while heated, has remained civil for the last couple of pages. Keep it up, Jcribb and Falconer!
Thank you. That's all I'm asking is to be able to actually discuss and debate without the name calling. It gives both sides ample opportunity to be heard and able to respond back with answers.
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When all answers and questions come from creationist websites, there will never be a 'favorable' answer given as to how things actually came into being. Is anyone on here, myself included, a nuclear physicist able to explain theories of redshift, collisional bonding of molecules, gravitational clustering that produces mass as a result of an explosion, etc. in such a way to be understood and thus a refute to creation and proof of evolution? No, plain and simple. Each side states it's opinions, as it has been done for many years and the sides look at each other and say....(http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/bsflag.gif) I will say it has been a very civil and adult convo though, good on ya, and keep it going!
Sorry so late on this, haven't caught up until now, but love you too Falconer, hi "Sister in Warped Thinking" Amy, and hello Sheryl (saw that in some thread)! ;)
So, then, Creation is just as much a possibility as Big Bang, etc. I choose Creation.
I want to add here, that it makes sense for a Creationist to find answers from Creationist sites, just as Evolutionists use Evolution sites and youtube for their answers. I try to find a medium between the two, but as you already know, it doesn't always work that way.
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Please stop answering my questions for me. My questions are NOT flawed and I DO believe in them.
Answering your questions for you? What? Not sure what you mean. You directed 2 very tired and cliched queries towards Falconer, and I had more to add to what he said, so I did.
And your question IS flawed...I don't care if you don't like me, or you're the type of person who automatically disagrees with your opposition just to be stubborn, but love me or hate me, it doesn't change the objective truth: your premise is flawed. I already explained to you why it is flawed, and if you still can't comprehend why, that makes me a very sad panda for the lack of logic going around in this forum. :(
Don't you really want to know these answers or are you afraid it will knock your disbelief out in left field?
Well that's comical. I already know your answer: "God did it!" Never mind the pesky details!!
And I did answer your first question in the second part of what I was saying for Q1. Go back and read, plz.
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As many people who are dying from, say, cancer, *there are just as many who overcome the cancer.
Do you still stand by that when the CDC reports cancer is the 2nd leading cause of death, second only to heart disease? And what is the criteria upon which god "picks and chooses" who to save? Why does the 9 year old leukemia girl deserve to die, but the serial killer inmate is allowed to go into remission? Oh right; it's all part of god's special plan, isn't it?
You don't have to believe it since you don't believe in God or His Word, since that's where the mustard seed scenario comes from. A person who refutes God the way you do is not open to wanting to understand that kind of faith.
Why are you bringing me into this? Once again you are flat out ignoring the example that was presented of a million Christians just as good as you praying sincerely for cancer to go away, and nothing will ever happen. And even if you want to bring me into it, I truly believed in god just 4 years ago and had faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time.
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queenofnines,
First, if you have to brag how much your faith was ("faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time."), I just find it very odd that you have done a 180. Like I said before, something in your life happened, that made you do a complete turn like that.
Second, I don't hate you as a person. It's just not interesting to try and debate with you on religious issues because you don't debate. In the beginning, when I first joined, you did more debating with these issues. I enjoyed sparking with you. But now, you come across as "It's your way or the highway" aspect, name calling, etc. At least with Falconer, he's open enough to question and challenge my questions and comments, and vice versa. I feel like whether he agrees or not, at least he is respecting what I have to say. He is not cutting me off as delusional and is acknowledging what I have to say.
Third, once again, my question was NOT flawed. You just don't want to be backed into a corner when answering it. If you do not like what I am saying, that's fine. You can ignore me. I'm about ready to do the same, for reasons listed in my second comment.
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Falconer,
An excellent example of intelligent design is the DNA molecule (this incredible micro, digital, error-correcting, redundant, self duplicating, information storage and retrieval system, with its own inherent language convention, that has the potential to develop any organism from raw biological material.) Since its discovery by James Watson and Francis Crick in 1953, evolutionists have faced an insurmountable hurdle. Anyone who truly investigates the mystery of the DNA molecule understands that life is the result of Intelligent Design.
In light of recent discoveries such as the DNA molecule, the absurdity of the evolution argument is readily apparent when its basic formula is compared with that of the creation model of origins.
Creation states that matter + energy + information = incredibly complex life.
Evolution states that matter + energy + random chance = incredibly complex life.
The theory of evolution is merely a religion that serves to discredit the Intelligent Designer Himself.
(http://www.allaboutscience.org/)
Since the Intelligent Designer is God, there are many people who will try to discredit anything that comes from Him, because God can't be seen or touched or won't prove it openly. Yet, these same people will put their belief and trust in the idea we evolved from animals, plants, etc. I don't buy that view. That view could not have perfected what humans are in the first place. How did something like the world come into random "matter and energy" existence and make itself automatically know how to make the sky, space, stars, ground, plants, waters. etc.? That's going too far. Only a designer can set such things into motion. In this case, God is the designer.
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Someone has been trolling 4chan too much, methinks.
I actually laughed at this. Oddly enough, I don't even go to 4chan! :o
but love you too Falconer,
Yay!
So, then, Creation is just as much a possibility as Big Bang, etc. I choose Creation.
Furthest from. One teaches about progressing our knowledge through discovery and testing of the newfound unknown and building upon that through proofs. The other is trapped in ancient and superstitious thinking. Whenever real science contests creationism and corners it, creationists will create loophole reasonings (such as ID). Examples include "Each day in Genesis represents an entire eon!" or "The dinosaurs disappeared because they weren't on the ark!" which is just bull. I see it used all the time and it's absurd. It avoids the problems with it's own argument completely while attacking the other side. http://www.galileowaswrong.com/galileowaswrong/ Srsly, wth?
When you cripple the foundation of religious reasoning, the entire thing falls apart because there is no legitimacy. Because of this, there is cop-out reasonings like ID to crutch it back up. When you cripple the foundation of a scientific reasoning, you better the world around you. The fact that you're reading this post is proof of that.
http://lintbox.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/2007-01-1520-20science20vs20faith.png
I will say that ID is pseudoscience and any reputable scientist will discredit it due to it being untestable. It's just speculation. Evolution and abiogenesis are testable ideas and have actual proofs to them that you can see and (via microevolution and experiments) interact with. And since creationism teaches about your super-defined deity, I think ID is sort of a double negative because you're supposed to show trust and faith in your god, whereas ID just says that there could be a god or gods which loosens the legitimacy of that one god you support.
(http://www.allaboutscience.org/)
Because we can all trust a science site that says man came from apes! ::) I'm sorry to mock your source, but this site is taking things emotionally rather than stating unbiased logical information.
"Mixing god with science is like mixing astrology with astronomy"
excellent example of intelligent design is the DNA molecule
Nature is an excellent example of the DNA molecule. ID is just trickery here unless you have some foundation that can be tested for it.
http://www.evolutionofdna.com/
Creation states that matter + energy + information = incredibly complex life.
Evolution states that matter + energy + random chance = incredibly complex life.
Evolution does not state that. I'm not even sure what this means.
Since the Intelligent Designer is God, there are many people who will try to discredit anything that comes from Him, because God can't be seen or touched or won't prove it openly.
Given the lot of proofs I've posted, it would seem that this god is just more of a deceptive emotional trait.
How did something like the world come into random "matter and energy" existence and make itself automatically know how to make the sky, space, stars, ground, plants, waters. etc.? That's going too far.
This is another eye-of-the-beholder argument. What if we evolved in a world where we had 3 suns, 5 moons, oceans were lava, we breathed methane, and had 6 eyes that only saw infrared light? That would be normal to you, and this current world would be completely bonkers in your mind. Everything you listed could be improved greatly to suit our needs. You seem to get this notion that nature is this precision marksman that can strike a bottle a mile away. It's not. Nature holds a shotgun and blasts it's intended target until it hits it. Those little round bb's that hit the bottle then have the challenge of struggling to survive. I'm sure this isn't the best example, but I think you'll get the point.
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I'd like to say before I go any further, that some people who are opposed to God, or even the possibility to consider God, are going to always rationalize and/or explain away anything that a God believer will attempt to share. To them, all evidence put forward is not evidence to them and would be considered useless because they have concluded that there is absolutely no God. Christians, on the other hand, will also try to prove the evidences of God and disprove what the evolutionists are trying to prove. It's just a never-ending circle and will stay that way until the end of time. Nevertheless, people on both sides will always continue to try and prove their side. With that said and behind me, I'll try to continue on.
1. Let's look at the earth. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life. No other planet has that given (or at least that hasn't been discovered.) The earth is also located from the sun at just the right distance to not be torched or frozen. It also is perfectly located the right amount of distance from the moon. This involves the tides gravitational pull, the tides moving the water, and also the mystery of the oceans and waters being held back from covering the earth again. One thing I remember learning in science is that water in the winter freezes from the top - that way fish can still swim in the water and live. Just these things alone do not support evolution. They support some kind of creator or designer that knew what exactly was needed for everything to work together, in and organized way.
**But yet, ""The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence." (Dinesh D'Souza, What's So Great about Christianity; (Regnery Publishing, Inc, 2007, chapter 11); (Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle.";Richard Feynman, The Meaning of It All: Thoughts of a Citizen-Scientist (New York: BasicBooks, 1998), 43.)
2. Regarding the Big Bang: [Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."(Robert Jastrow; "Message from Professor Robert Jastrow"; LeaderU.com; 2002.)
**They still don't know the cause, but can't accept that God was already there and caused it to happen. Instead they keep trying their best to disprove that God had anything to do with it. Actually that there is no God and it just could not happen that way.
That's all my brain will let me do at this point. It's tuckered out. I'm not finished, though! :)
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The Big Bang Theory is a man-made conclusion.
And looking at "this perfect universe with sky, ground, stars, waters, etc." (to quote you) and attributing it to god is...what?
But where do more of the facts lie?
...Spoiler: not with a supernatural intelligence.
P.S. It took several billion years for the universe to form its various parts. It took almost 10 billion alone to get to the earth making stage. Sonny is not cuckoo for Cosmos Poofs here.
And then people evolved from what: animals, flowers etc.?
This naive statement makes me think you know very little about how evolution works. Humans are animals; how many times do we have to go over this? And ALL life shares common descent. This is proven by DNA.
@Falconer and anyone else with an open mind: there is a great YouTube channel I just found called WhyEvolutionIsTrue. It features a massive amount of documentaries on the subject from BBC, PBS, NOVA, National Geographic, universities, etc. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/user/WhyEvolutionIsTrue#p/p
Do you know how odd that sounds?
I think it is way more odd that I'm expected to believe that the first humans were made out of dirt and were placed in a garden with a forbidden tree and were tempted by a talking snake set in motion by an omniscient god who for some reason is really insecure and needs worship from his creations and I could go on and on...
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if you have to brag how much your faith was ("faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time.")
Not bragging. Just pointing out that I think you'd be very surprised if you could look into the past with your own eyes and see that I was a dedicated Christian, since believers love to accuse atheists of never believing at all. You find it odd because you're probably quite comfortable in your position and would never dream of investigating if your beliefs are actually true like I did. They make you feel good; a bunch of other people agree with you...that's all you need to know.
I'd like to know why this thread has turned into a copy paste session of pseudoscience...? It seems when the going gets tough, Xtians steamroll right over any logical arguments that have been made and instead try to pose a slew of scientific questions that don't always have solid answers to try and back their opposition into a corner. Um, it's not really a debate when I'm arguing against words that have been copy pasted...it's okay to do here and there, but when you're using them as the bulk of your posts, it's not actually your argument.
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It would be good if only one person at a time addressed Jcribb so she can give you what answer or debate you are seeking. Frankly, your like a bunch of snapping mutts all closing in with your own agenda or argument. She's done an excellent job trying to answer all of you at one time, but it's not fair to lob questions at her when she's busy trying to bring this to completion with Falconer. That's been your MO with every Christian on here. All of you inundate a believer with questions all at once, when they are trying to answer a question to someone who has engaged them.
To Amy: Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on. Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc. Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people? I would question why you would think that is a good thing? Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.
To qon: I told you before.....and it goes now. Quote the Bible all you want. I will not answer you on any level like that, as you don't believe the Bible nor that God exists anyway. You have no right to use either. Therefore, you don't get any answer Biblical or otherwise when you think that will bring me out. You don't believe scripture, so to post scripture back to you is a waste of my valuable time and effort. Won't happen.
To jordandog: I answered your post after your lengthy narration on the trinity vs One God. Mostly for others who have questions concerning the One God message. However, you are another one who does not believe in God or the scriptures...or you have said before. What makes you think you can actually use them, if you don't believe them, or who they testify of?
Someone told me that $3 doesn't cover the aggravation and discourse that these debates (lol) generate. I concur. If it was debating or discussing, it would be okay. All to often though, it gets cut throat, name calling, etc. My 30 posts are much better used in other threads. While Jcribb hasn't gotten to the point of not answering your questions.....I have. Say anything you want........I'm chicken, have nothing to say, don't know what I'm talking about......I don't care. The truth is, I don't want to talk to any of you that do nothing but drag the Lord and the Bible in the mud.
Besides........time is going to answer ALL......lol
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Quote from: jcribb16 on January 23, 2011, 04:23:04 pm
The Big Bang Theory is a man-made conclusion.
Quote from queenofnines:
And looking at "this perfect universe with sky, ground, stars, waters, etc." (to quote you) and attributing it to god is...what?
But where do more of the facts lie?
...Spoiler: not with a supernatural intelligence.
Attributing it to a perfect creator/designer - that's what!
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if you have to brag how much your faith was ("faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time.")
Not bragging. Just pointing out that I think you'd be very surprised if you could look into the past with your own eyes and see that I was a dedicated Christian, since believers love to accuse atheists of never believing at all. You find it odd because you're probably quite comfortable in your position and would never dream of investigating if your beliefs are actually true like I did. They make you feel good; a bunch of other people agree with you...that's all you need to know.
I'd like to know why this thread has turned into a copy paste session of pseudoscience...? It seems when the going gets tough, Xtians steamroll right over any logical arguments that have been made and instead try to pose a slew of scientific questions that don't always have solid answers to try and back their opposition into a corner. Um, it's not really a debate when I'm arguing against words that have been copy pasted...it's okay to do here and there, but when you're using them as the bulk of your posts, it's not actually your argument.
Wait a minute.......you have copy and pasted your share of replies. Also referring to atheistic YouTube channels numerous times. You used the same argument with Sherene when she posted material from the website Godnscience.com. I guess your the only one who can do it, but Jcribb can't? Double standard!
It is her argument. You can't limit her to certain material, if you can use the Bible against her when you don't even believe it? Then your restricted using the Word of God for your argument!
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Quote from queenofnines:
it's not actually your argument
I have tried my best to do most of my own writing on here. I have shown quotes for a reason and showed them as quotes, because some of them actually include scientists that are evolutionists, but admittedly say that they aren't even sure of some of the questions of the cause.
I'm not any different than anyone else in here trying to make a point. You like to use youtube (evolution, atheist) a lot in your answers. There is no difference there. I'm not going to be put on the defense with you. You are doing just what I said you like to do when we don't agree with you or come up with answers/truth/possibilities that you don't like - cut down, cut off, make look foolish, etc. You go on and do what you want to do. I am pretty much speaking to Falconer and answering his questions/remarks as he is doing the same. If you want to add your views like he is doing, wonderful. If not, then I'm not going to put up with your attitude towards me. You go too far stirring the pot instead of communicating like an adult should.
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Quote from Annella:
It would be good if only one person at a time addressed Jcribb so she can give you what answer or debate you are seeking. Frankly, your like a bunch of snapping mutts all closing in with your own agenda or argument. She's done an excellent job trying to answer all of you at one time, but it's not fair to lob questions at her when she's busy trying to bring this to completion with Falconer. That's been your MO with every Christian on here. All of you inundate a believer with questions all at once, when they are trying to answer a question to someone who has engaged them.
Thank you, Annella. That means a lot!
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Quote from: jcribb16 on Today at 10:02:09 am
if you have to brag how much your faith was ("faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time.")
Quote from: queenofnines on Today at 05:38:58 pm
Not bragging. Just pointing out that I think you'd be very surprised if you could look into the past with your own eyes and see that I was a dedicated Christian, since believers love to accuse atheists of never believing at all. You find it odd because you're probably quite comfortable in your position and would never dream of investigating if your beliefs are actually true like I did. They make you feel good; a bunch of other people agree with you...that's all you need to know.
Regarding you being a dedicated Christian: Like I said, something must have happened to make you turn a complete 180. I do NOT love to accuse atheists of never believing at all - that depends on each individual's situation.
You know, I love it when we do agree on something!!!!! You are absolutely right!!! :D I am quite comfortable in my position of follower of God. That is true. However, I do investigate and have investigated the other beliefs. In college, I had many classes on the Bible, Bible History, History of Rome, Greece, Italy, Israel, etc. I also had to take classes on Cults, Atheism, etc. Through this "investigation", my beliefs are firmly planted in God, so, yes, I'm comfortable with that end of it. The studies have helped to prepare me for people that don't believe, may believe, and ones like you, that mock the Christians. I have my Bible, research books, notes, and my brain to help me on here.
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Quote from: jcribb16 on Today at 10:02:09 am
if you have to brag how much your faith was ("faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time.")
Quote from: queenofnines on Today at 05:38:58 pm
Not bragging. Just pointing out that I think you'd be very surprised if you could look into the past with your own eyes and see that I was a dedicated Christian, since believers love to accuse atheists of never believing at all. You find it odd because you're probably quite comfortable in your position and would never dream of investigating if your beliefs are actually true like I did. They make you feel good; a bunch of other people agree with you...that's all you need to know.
Regarding you being a dedicated Christian: Like I said, something must have happened to make you turn a complete 180. I do NOT love to accuse atheists of never believing at all - that depends on each individual's situation.
You know, I love it when we do agree on something!!!!! You are absolutely right!!! :D I am quite comfortable in my position of follower of God. That is true. However, I do investigate and have investigated the other beliefs. In college, I had many classes on the Bible, Bible History, History of Rome, Greece, Italy, Israel, etc. I also had to take classes on Cults, Atheism, etc. Through this "investigation", my beliefs are firmly planted in God, so, yes, I'm comfortable with that end of it. The studies have helped to prepare me for people that don't believe, may believe, and ones like you, that mock the Christians. I have my research books, notes, and my brain to help me on here.
Very good Jcribb. I deleted my post, as yours was better.
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Quote from: jcribb16 on Today at 10:02:09 am
if you have to brag how much your faith was ("faith that surpassed my Christian boyfriend's at the time.")
Quote from: queenofnines on Today at 05:38:58 pm
Not bragging. Just pointing out that I think you'd be very surprised if you could look into the past with your own eyes and see that I was a dedicated Christian, since believers love to accuse atheists of never believing at all. You find it odd because you're probably quite comfortable in your position and would never dream of investigating if your beliefs are actually true like I did. They make you feel good; a bunch of other people agree with you...that's all you need to know.
Regarding you being a dedicated Christian: Like I said, something must have happened to make you turn a complete 180. I do NOT love to accuse atheists of never believing at all - that depends on each individual's situation.
You know, I love it when we do agree on something!!!!! You are absolutely right!!! :D I am quite comfortable in my position of follower of God. That is true. However, I do investigate and have investigated the other beliefs. In college, I had many classes on the Bible, Bible History, History of Rome, Greece, Italy, Israel, etc. I also had to take classes on Cults, Atheism, etc. Through this "investigation", my beliefs are firmly planted in God, so, yes, I'm comfortable with that end of it. The studies have helped to prepare me for people that don't believe, may believe, and ones like you, that mock the Christians. I have my Bible, research books, notes, and my brain to help me on here.
Very good Jcribb. I deleted my post, as yours was better.
Yours was good, too! It shows there are more on here that notice the trend of things... :)
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To Amy: Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on. Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc. Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people? I would question why you would think that is a good thing? Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.
You disappoint me.
At one time, I believed we were friends. I confided in you out of love, regardless of whether or not we agreed on everything. In fact, I defended you on several occasions. All you have done with this statement here is prove that what everyone is saying about you is true.
I am straightforward with my words. I've mentioned several times that I missed seeing you on here, not because you served as cheap entertainment, but because I valued you as a human being. Thanks for proving me wrong. I won't bother with you again.
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To Amy: Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on. Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc. Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people? I would question why you would think that is a good thing? Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.
You disappoint me.
At one time, I believed we were friends. I confided in you out of love, regardless of whether or not we agreed on everything. In fact, I defended you on several occasions. All you have done with this statement here is prove that what everyone is saying about you is true.
I am straightforward with my words. I've mentioned several times that I missed seeing you on here, not because you served as cheap entertainment, but because I valued you as a human being. Thanks for proving me wrong. I won't bother with you again.
If I misunderstood your posting, then I apologize. However, who would want to see jordandog and I go at it again? I for one would not miss any of the garbage that went on between her and I. You did mention just her and I, am I not correct? While I haven't gone anywhere, and have been on other threads where I know you have seen me, and I you, I was wondering why you would post what you did?
What have you confided in me that I've not kept said confidence? If you mentioned several times here on D&D that you missed seeing me on here, I've only come back into D&D the last 3 or 4 days to help out Jcribb. I haven't been in here in months, nor have I been reading up past postings. So if you have mentioned anything in D&D about missing me, then I've not been in here to read it. I no longer have a Facebook account or YouTube account either. I haven't touched base with you in months.
Of course your welcome to your opinion about what you think about me as a person. Sorry you feel that way.
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I'd like to say before I go any further, that some people who are opposed to God, or even the possibility to consider God, are going to always rationalize and/or explain away anything that a God believer will attempt to share. To them, all evidence put forward is not evidence to them and would be considered useless because they have concluded that there is absolutely no God. Christians, on the other hand, will also try to prove the evidences of God and disprove what the evolutionists are trying to prove. It's just a never-ending circle and will stay that way until the end of time. Nevertheless, people on both sides will always continue to try and prove their side. With that said and behind me, I'll try to continue on.
I haven't concluded that there is no god or gods or...as I like to put it...metaphysical properties. I just said they can only exist in a speculative manner. The specified defined gods that have human attributes, run-of-the-mill stories, that are from ancient superstitious times? The one's that are overbloated in today's society? Yes, since it's so skewed and completely obvious that they're myths. http://www.bigmyth.com/webpages/2_eng_myths.htm
Remember what you should be pushing for-- it isn't really proof of a deity. That leaves room for every possible concept, and (no offense here) it shows that you're not too serious about your own god. Evolutionists have their undeniable evidence with visual and interactive proof. I've told you about some of them. I used to be adamantly against the proof of it until I actually just listened and studied it. I'm glad I did.
1. Let's look at the earth. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life. No other planet has that given (or at least that hasn't been discovered.) The earth is also located from the sun at just the right distance to not be torched or frozen. It also is perfectly located the right amount of distance from the moon. This involves the tides gravitational pull, the tides moving the water, and also the mystery of the oceans and waters being held back from covering the earth again. One thing I remember learning in science is that water in the winter freezes from the top - that way fish can still swim in the water and live. Just these things alone do not support evolution. They support some kind of creator or designer that knew what exactly was needed for everything to work together, in and organized way.
**But yet, ""The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence.
This is, again, an eye-of-the-beholder and a blind watch-maker argument. You seem to think that everything you labelled here was made specifically for us, whereas you completely forget the notion that everything was made around those things nature brought into existence. Pretty much your argument dulls down to the metaphor of "God made kitchens for cockroaches only".
None of these things you listed are perfect.
1.) Earth is not perfectly placed from the sun. The orbit it takes is not symmetrical either. It's just within a narrow area called a habitable zone. Within it lies a semi-narrow range of attributes which allowed for the emergence of life and evolution . Once evolution started, life naturally evolved to fit the conditions on this planet. Not perfectly, but enough to survive and reproduce. Besides that, another planet has been discovered that has this too-
http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2010/09/30/planet_found_in_habitable_zone/
Considering the trillions of planets that are probably out there, it's easy to conclude that we probably aren't the only gem in this universe. :D
2.) The moon is not perfectly located at the right amt of distance either. Infact it's actually slowly moving away year by year (3 cm)! If it were perfect, we would not have random tidal distortions anywhere. Rather, the gravitational force between earth and the moon would have to be absolutely perfect for ideal tip-top planet condition. Ours just seems like shabby design.
3.) Water freezes according to the heat it loses. Naturally heat rises, so the surface of water will be the first to freeze unless the cooling is being delivered to another location; the water at the surface loses energy to the cold air, so it freezes first. Again, my point here is that life arose around these natural principles. Not all at once.
"The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen.
Yep. I'd like to know, but I'm not flipping out and stuffing it with something superstitious to make me feel more comfortable about existence. It's a mysteryyyyy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC4jZKSU8G4&feature=related
They still don't know the cause, but can't accept that God was already there and caused it to happen. Instead they keep trying their best to disprove that God had anything to do with it. Actually that there is no God and it just could not happen that way
You act like science is ruthlessly out to kill the god concept. It's not. As it progresses, it just keeps unwillingly hitting religious foundational beliefs. What else could one expect?
"Look! Fire! God made it!"
"How do you know?"
"It would only make sense because nobody knows how it came to be!"
"Well let's try to figure that out just to be sure! I'll grab some sticks and rub them together. Maybe you can go find some flint rocks and try th--"
"STOP TRYING TO DISPROVE GOD!"
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Quote from Falconer:
Remember what you should be pushing for-- it isn't really proof of a deity. That leaves room for every possible concept, and (no offense here) it shows that you're not too serious about your own god. Evolutionists have their undeniable evidence with visual and interactive proof. I've told you about some of them. I used to be adamantly against the proof of it until I actually just listened and studied it. I'm glad I did.
Well, I do beg your pardon here: I am very serious about God. You are also contradicting yourself when you say that what I'm pushing for shouldn't be "really proof of a diety." That's exactly what you want, IS proof of God. You say you see the proof of Evolution by "undeniable evidence with visual and interactive proof." Well, you are wanting the exact same thing to be proven to you of a deity.
You also say you, " haven't concluded that there is no god or gods or...as I like to put it...metaphysical properties." Yet you turn around and infer they are myths. That's kind of confusing to people.
As far as my views on the earth, moon, and water, you did exactly as I said that some people do. You tried to explain the views away and/or rationalize them away. I can honestly say that no matter what I write myself or quote from other scientists that view the Creation side, you will keep doing the same thing. It doesn't mean that all of your rationalizations are the correct or incorrect rebuttal to mine. People can draw their own conclusions.
I will say that I stand by what was written about my views on the earth, moon, and water. If the earth were not in the precise position it is now, we would either burn up or freeze to death. That kind of placement doesn't happen by chance nor by transition.
You can rationalize how the freezing of the water works. Okay, that's true. But my point for that is how it was made to do that so that the fish are not killed off during the cold season. Evolution and chance did not come up with that perfection. A Designer/Creator did.
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It's almost 2 a.m. here, so I'm going to try and ignore insomnia and get some rest. Have a good night and I will "see" you all tomorrow (actually, later today.) Good night!
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Well, I do beg your pardon here: I am very serious about God. You are also contradicting yourself when you say that what I'm pushing for shouldn't be "really proof of a diety." That's exactly what you want, IS proof of God. You say you see the proof of Evolution by "undeniable evidence with visual and interactive proof." Well, you are wanting the exact same thing to be proven to you of a deity.
Well I didn't want to offend-- it's just after doing research on ID, I just wanted to state the major problem with pushing for ID. It's partially contradictory to your belief.
You also say you, " haven't concluded that there is no god or gods or...as I like to put it...metaphysical properties." Yet you turn around and infer they are myths. That's kind of confusing to people.
I'm referring to the mysteries of the universe-- what we haven't found yet such as what came before the universe or if there are different metaphysical dimensions for beings to exist in, etc. I say myths because the idea your side stands with are old stories from primitive times having to do with a god with very well-defined traits. Many cultures have these and they're all different stories.
You tried to explain the views away and/or rationalize them away. I can honestly say that no matter what I write myself or quote from other scientists that view the Creation side, you will keep doing the same thing. It doesn't mean that all of your rationalizations are the correct or incorrect rebuttal to mine. People can draw their own conclusions.
Yes, like if a god did design these things, it's a pretty shabby designer seeing how there is massive amounts of room for improvement for even the most basic aspects of it. Especially for us humans.
If the earth were not in the precise position it is now, we would either burn up or freeze to death. That kind of placement doesn't happen by chance nor by transition.
There is no precise distance, but a minimum and maximum range of distances which life can exist. I don't know them offhand though. Just remember- life can exist at various temperatures and pressures. If the planet were to move a few million miles from it's current orbit, not all life would die off.
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/H/habzone.html
And again, considering there are other planets/satellites that do this in the universe, it is by chance and transition. We just don't know if there's any sort of developing life on them because they're extremely far away.
But my point for that is how it was made to do that so that the fish are not killed off during the cold season. Evolution and chance did not come up with that perfection. A Designer/Creator did.
Chance is loosely thrown around here like it's a single flip of a coin. Remember the "Law of large numbers"- If it can happen, given enough opportunity, it will happen.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers
Remember how large the universe is, how much time it has been around, and how things are forming and breaking apart in it constantly. Also, your use of the word 'perfection' is very blunt. The fishes existence is not perfect because everything is infinitely perfectable. It's just perfect to you because it's what you're used to seeing. That's what I meant by a "universally ethnocentric" sight on things.
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To Amy: Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on. Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc. Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people? I would question why you would think that is a good thing? Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.
You disappoint me.
At one time, I believed we were friends. I confided in you out of love, regardless of whether or not we agreed on everything. In fact, I defended you on several occasions. All you have done with this statement here is prove that what everyone is saying about you is true.
I am straightforward with my words. I've mentioned several times that I missed seeing you on here, not because you served as cheap entertainment, but because I valued you as a human being. Thanks for proving me wrong. I won't bother with you again.
If I misunderstood your posting, then I apologize. However, who would want to see jordandog and I go at it again? I for one would not miss any of the garbage that went on between her and I. You did mention just her and I, am I not correct? While I haven't gone anywhere, and have been on other threads where I know you have seen me, and I you, I was wondering why you would post what you did?
What have you confided in me that I've not kept said confidence? If you mentioned several times here on D&D that you missed seeing me on here, I've only come back into D&D the last 3 or 4 days to help out Jcribb. I haven't been in here in months, nor have I been reading up past postings. So if you have mentioned anything in D&D about missing me, then I've not been in here to read it. I no longer have a Facebook account or YouTube account either. I haven't touched base with you in months.
Of course your welcome to your opinion about what you think about me as a person. Sorry you feel that way.
Allow me to refresh your memory. Here are my words:
And, hey Jdog and Annella! I've missed you both!
That was in no way an invitation for you and Jdog to "go at it again." It was my saying that I have not seen either of you on D&D in awhile (the part of the FC forums that I frequent the most) and that I've missed you both. You seem to be the only one to misunderstand it.
I may have misunderstood your words, though, since I thought they were directed at me in the never agreeing on anything and being called a *bleep*. For that I am sorry. It disappoints me, though, that you would ever think that I would desire to read your words as a source of cheap entertainment. I honestly thought you knew me better.
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
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To Amy: Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on. Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc. Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people? I would question why you would think that is a good thing? Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.
You (Annella) take a simple "Hello" from Amy to each of us and turn it into this?! By the way and for the record, we have agreed on things. You forget that, just like you forget that not every word said to you has some hidden and underlying meaning. I NEVER called you a *bleep*, I said you were in "*bleep* mode" and I will say you are once again. The above really bothered me and NOT because of what you said about me, but because you directed your venom at Amy for no reason. You have to have the last word on everything with everyone. It is apparent here, apparent on some Off Topic threads with others. If this is how a woman of god acts, I pity the people you minister to. I suppose you are compassionate with them until there is something they say that means they are 'out to get you' too? Where did Amy say that you had done this ie made public things said to you? - "What have you confided in me that I've not kept said confidence?"
You really need to get a grip on things and stop reading what isn't written and start reading what is. I have not hidden who I am, have always been real on here, good or bad. You seem to go with whatever direction your paranoia takes you and that has NOTHING to do with your beliefs because I am not putting that into the equation here. You see something that isn't, no matter what the topic happens to be.
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If the earth were not in the precise position it is now, we would either burn up or freeze to death. That kind of placement doesn't happen by chance nor by transition.
Yes, it does happen by chance. Want to know why? The universe is infinitely bigger than our little minds can comprehend, with TRILLIONS of stars and BILLIONS of galaxies. That is not an exaggeration, it is literally true. So even if there's a one in a million shot of getting an earth like ours, out of BILLIONS of galaxies, it's going to happen many times over due to statistics alone. It's inevitable; it's not god.
And like Falconer said, our home planet is far from perfect. By 2025, 50 percent of the world's population won't have access to safe drinking water. Entire continents are a curse because the land is not very fertile, causing thousands to die of starvation everyday. Natural disasters happen frequently. We are not perfectly protected from an asteroid hitting earth and making life miserable for us all. There are a limited number of resources to go around, and yet people still keep making babies. Etc., etc.
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Kept on looking for an answer and wish the best of it. For me, if finally find Him that's the best thing will happen to you.
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If the earth were not in the precise position it is now, we would either burn up or freeze to death. That kind of placement doesn't happen by chance nor by transition.
Yes, it does happen by chance. Want to know why? The universe is infinitely bigger than our little minds can comprehend, with TRILLIONS of stars and BILLIONS of galaxies. That is not an exaggeration, it is literally true. So even if there's a one in a million shot of getting an earth like ours, out of BILLIONS of galaxies, it's going to happen many times over due to statistics alone. It's inevitable; it's not god.
And like Falconer said, our home planet is far from perfect. By 2025, 50 percent of the world's population won't have access to safe drinking water. Entire continents are a curse because the land is not very fertile, causing thousands to die of starvation everyday. Natural disasters happen frequently. We are not perfectly protected from an asteroid hitting earth and making life miserable for us all. There are a limited number of resources to go around, and yet people still keep making babies. Etc., etc.
I respectfully disagree with you about the "chance" part. I support the Designer/Creator. Chance cannot make the beginnings of the world in such an organized way..
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respectfully disagree with you about the "chance" part. I support the Designer/Creator. Chance cannot make the beginnings of the world in such an organized way..
This is an uneducated opinion on things then. That's far from proof. All you've posted are lazy watchmaker arguments that don't add up. No offense, but it's getting kind of redundant.
Our argument(s) in a nutshell-
"There's a god because this is complex! Look at Exhibit A!"
"Exhibit A could have formed naturally because of these reasons and these visual proofs."
"There's a god because Exhibit B is wrong and has a few holes! This proves there's a god!"
"Granted B has some problems, the amount of evidence outweighs it being completely fallicious. That, and I don't think you understand the concept that well. Here's an example of how it actually works."
"Well...there's a god because THIS is complex! Look at Exhibit C!"
"The probability of C forming naturally is within realistic limits considering the amount of matter, space, and time. The chances are not as large as you think they are. We just can't conceptualize it because we're not used to dealing with these large numbers. Look into the universe for visual proof."
"Well...then...there's a god because I think there is!"
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Quote from jcribb:
respectfully disagree with you about the "chance" part. I support the Designer/Creator. Chance cannot make the beginnings of the world in such an organized way..
Quote from Falconer:
This is an uneducated opinion on things then. That's far from proof. All you've posted are lazy watchmaker arguments that don't add up. No offense, but it's getting kind of redundant.
Yes, it's "getting kind of redundant." We will always go in circles. Back to my very first questions:
** Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?
** Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?
You never gave a clear answer to question one. You "rode the fence" without a clear and concise yes or no. If the universe didn't have a cause, then why come in the first place? Why have a design and order of the universe? It's because there is the alternative to Evolution, that it was created by a designer. According to God's Word, it was Him.
Then I would like to remind you, that the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.
The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer. You can keep explaining it away and/or rationalizing this, but it does NOT prove that there is NOT a creator/designer.
So, until you can prove, beyond a shadow and a doubt, that there is NO God, and proof that this world was NOT created by God, the great Designer/Creator, then I maintain my position that God is real and He created the universe. He, ultimately, used "science", if you will, to produce this world, and provided the way for future scientists to explore and experiment. Scientists are doing an amazing work out there. But it doesn't mean that Evolution was/is the answer.
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To Amy: Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on. Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc. Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people? I would question why you would think that is a good thing? Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.
You (Annella) take a simple "Hello" from Amy to each of us and turn it into this?! By the way and for the record, we have agreed on things. You forget that, just like you forget that not every word said to you has some hidden and underlying meaning. I NEVER called you a *bleep*, I said you were in "*bleep* mode" and I will say you are once again. The above really bothered me and NOT because of what you said about me, but because you directed your venom at Amy for no reason. You have to have the last word on everything with everyone. It is apparent here, apparent on some Off Topic threads with others. If this is how a woman of god acts, I pity the people you minister to. I suppose you are compassionate with them until there is something they say that means they are 'out to get you' too? Where did Amy say that you had done this ie made public things said to you? - "What have you confided in me that I've not kept said confidence?"
You really need to get a grip on things and stop reading what isn't written and start reading what is. I have not hidden who I am, have always been real on here, good or bad. You seem to go with whatever direction your paranoia takes you and that has NOTHING to do with your beliefs because I am not putting that into the equation here. You see something that isn't, no matter what the topic happens to be.
Whatever.................Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me jordandog. I apologized to Amy. She can accept it or no. I believe the "confidential" statement was in reference what Amy and I have shared outside of this forum, which has nothing to do with you.
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You never gave a clear answer to question one. You "rode the fence" without a clear and concise yes or no. If the universe didn't have a cause, then why come in the first place? Why have a design and order of the universe? It's because there is the alternative to Evolution, that it was created by a designer. According to God's Word, it was Him.
I can't answer your question because you're presenting question 1 as a false dilemma. This is not a black or white question. I really don't have to go any further then that.
Then I would like to remind you, that the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.
You have failed at explaining it with all those constant fallicious watchmaker examples. It's not provable. Again, this is a false dilemma. Because I have the humility to say that I might be wrong about some things does not necessitate that your personal deity exists. Especially because your god originally stemmed from sun worship. It's a lame argument from the get-go since it begins with mythology. Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer. You can keep explaining it away and/or rationalizing this, but it does NOT prove that there is NOT a creator/designer.
Seeing this again and again...your side is taking ignorance to a new level. It's not going in circles-- you just keep trying to add to it, but can't. I highly doubt you understand much of what has been posted since you just keep going with the watchmaker approach. The burden of proof is on you, and you've constantly failed at the whole proof thing-- the thing I asked for. The concept, design, and details of our world are not perfectly fit for all species including ourselves. Over 75% of the water on this ball is not drinkable unless processed. Only 10% of the land is in excellent shape to be arable. We've explained why with REAL things. We've explained why your examples are fallicious and that this god you speak of is a pretty sloppy and uncaring designer, and all you present are watchmaker arguments. It's not proof. It's getting to be highly delusional.
So, until you can prove, beyond a shadow and a doubt, that there is NO God, and proof that this world was NOT created by God, the great Designer/Creator, then I maintain my position that God is real and He created the universe. He, ultimately, used "science", if you will, to produce this world, and provided the way for future scientists to explore and experiment. Scientists are doing an amazing work out there. But it doesn't mean that Evolution was/is the answer.
I never said I could disprove it, did I? That would be neat if there was some cosmic metaphysical supernatural being or beings out there! But your specific god? Please. It's absolutely ridiculous reasoning you're trying to assert. You even address it with a gender.
Scientists are doing an amazing work out there. But it doesn't mean that Evolution was/is the answer.
Evolution has been proven. But what did you mean by 'answer'?
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Falconer,
What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here. I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you. When you refute, it's not just me - you are putting yourself above these professionals. You have started putting your "delusional", "watchmaking approach", etc. also as part of your disagreement. I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous. Maybe I should just do the same. However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far. The readers in this thread have their own opinions about what they believe. They can read what you and I wrote and either back their opinions of what they believe or question one way or the other.
At least I'm trying to present a viable argument here as nice as I can, to back up what I feel about something. If you think it's delusional, fine. I'll keep my "delusional" beliefs in what I feel is right. When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place. We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later. Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says.
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Falconer,
What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here. I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you. When you refute, it's not just me - you are putting yourself above these professionals. You have started putting your "delusional", "watchmaking approach", etc. also as part of your disagreement. I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous. Maybe I should just do the same. However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far. The readers in this thread have their own opinions about what they believe. They can read what you and I wrote and either back their opinions of what they believe or question one way or the other.
At least I'm trying to present a viable argument here as nice as I can, to back up what I feel about something. If you think it's delusional, fine. I'll keep my "delusional" beliefs in what I feel is right. When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place. We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later. Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says.
Isn't it funny that our delusional beliefs are actually coming to pass, and being fulfilled today. Like you said Jcribb, all the puzzle pieces will fall into place, and are falling into place. You did good, and went way beyond long suffering and steadfastness. In the end, you have to turn them over to what they want to believe. They are going to anyway. It doesn't make the sadness any more palatable, but you fought the good fight.
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Falconer,
What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here. I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you. When you refute, it's not just me - you are putting yourself above these professionals. You have started putting your "delusional", "watchmaking approach", etc. also as part of your disagreement. I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous. Maybe I should just do the same. However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far. The readers in this thread have their own opinions about what they believe. They can read what you and I wrote and either back their opinions of what they believe or question one way or the other.
At least I'm trying to present a viable argument here as nice as I can, to back up what I feel about something. If you think it's delusional, fine. I'll keep my "delusional" beliefs in what I feel is right. When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place. We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later. Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says.
Isn't it funny that our delusional beliefs are actually coming to pass, and being fulfilled today. Like you said Jcribb, all the puzzle pieces will fall into place, and are falling into place. You did good, and went way beyond long suffering and steadfastness. In the end, you have to turn them over to what they want to believe. They are going to anyway. It doesn't make the sadness any more palatable, but you fought the good fight.
Thank you, Annella. That means a lot. :)
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What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here.
Realistically, you really didn't offer anything. Just some vague analogies with some open-ended examples.
I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you.
From creationist sources, which I have pointed out that they skew the information ridiculously or just don't know what they're talking about. Any professor or scientist that's going to use a watchmaker approach is just wading in self deception. Unfortunately the ones I see preaching this are all religious.
I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous.
Can you use these names against me though? Or has Satan deluded me for educating myself on how mystical thinking is false?
However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far
And I don't intend to press your button! Sorry if it seems like I am. These are really the only words I can use as they match the description of what's being presented. If they're far too harsh, I'll try finding others. No prob.
When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place. We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later. Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says.
Queen will have a field day with this one. I'm too famished to write a few paragraphs though. I may later. Let me just put it to you this way through an example and some soulless internet copy/pasting-
"A man living in NYC was always claiming that terrorists were going to hit NYC big. Then September 11 happened. Therefore he is a prophet."
I think you can see the problem here.
For a prophecy to be credible, it needs to:
1) Be time-bound. Give a deadline for the prediction to come true or not happen. Otherwise, you can simply say it hasn't happened yet.
2) Predict a highly unusual event. Saying something that has a 50% chance of occurring isn't that impressive. Even if it's 10%, it merely means that 1 out of 10 prophets are going to score by luck. This is not asking for too much - if you knew that 9/11 was going to happen, you can be really specific about a lot of details. e.g. You can give the exact number of people who would die. You can give the exact number of terrorists or you can give the exact numbers of the flights. Just saying that a big natural disaster will soon hit the USA is not impressive.
3) Make the prediction before the event. This is of course the very definition of a prophecy. You don't wait for the event to happen, and then claim to have predicted it. You predict first and not modify it thereafter.
4) Be clear and precise. Prophecies that are so vague as to be able to fit into any event are not impressive. You can't brag about being a sharpshooter if you're aiming for the ocean from a boat.
5) Be correct all the time. Prophecies from God are supposed to be 100% accurate. So if even one turns out to be wrong - and clumsy excuses made to explain it away or cover it up - then you know the source isn't divine. A prophet who guesses right sometimes and guesses wrong other times isn't a prophet. We can all do that ourselves.
Do we create our reality and the things within it from our fantasy and fictional ideas? Many of the events and things created in this world could be done a million other ways..cars could look differently, planes could look different, we have shaped much of this world not completely in how it must be but in how our imaginations perceived it to be. This also applies to prophecy..did the event happen because the prohecy was true or did the prophecy come true because people made it?
The fact is that revelations (being mostly inspired by mushrooms)is so symbolic that it could really mean a lot of different things and for someone to take one thing like chip implants and associate it with the whole number of the beast thing and say that is a fulfilled prophecy is really stretching it.
Now, if you wish, please share some of the Book of Revelations prophecies if they meet these requirements.
Edit: In the end, you have to turn them over to what they want to believe. They are going to anyway. It doesn't make the sadness any more palatable, but you fought the good fight.
Says the lady who thinks faith healing is authentic and flatout lied about Jdog's research.
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Falconer,
I don't wish to share anything with you until you at least read the Book of Revelation. You can't discuss what you don't know. If you have read it, then you already know of the prophecies. Isaiah is another book with prophecies.
I've had it with your condescending remarks. I presented my side, you refuted it, and made yourself look one-sided with your "lazy watchmaker, etc." comments. It started out cordial, but you just couldn't hold back those remarks.
In regards to "Queen will have a field day with this one." I don't care to join her in her field day. I've had enough of her nonsensical cut-downs and cut-offs. It will do no one any good arguing with attitudes.
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Falconer,
I don't wish to share anything with you until you at least read the Book of Revelation. You can't discuss what you don't know. If you have read it, then you already know of the prophecies. Isaiah is another book with prophecies.
A legitimate request I suppose. For the record, I have actually read it. The problem is that it was when I was 12, so unfortunately I don't remember much of it. But I do remember it being very vague. I remember my mom explaining it to me and even then my words had a lot of "but"s in them. I also recall Teflonfanatic quoting many of the prophecies in the past, and they were very vague as well.
I've had it with your condescending remarks. I presented my side, you refuted it, and made yourself look one-sided with your "lazy watchmaker, etc." comments. It started out cordial, but you just couldn't hold back those remarks.
Lazy watchmaker = world is extremely imperfect. They call it the watchmaker argument because watches are so amazingly precise and work so perfectly, but our world is not like this. I wasn't calling YOU lazy! lol
In regards to "Queen will have a field day with this one." I don't care to join her in her field day. I've had enough of her nonsensical cut-downs and cut-offs. It will do no one any good arguing with attitudes.
Awwww :(
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evolution has NOT been proven. neither has design, but it makes a whole lot more sense to me.
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evolution has NOT been proven.
Yes it has. It's both fact and theory.
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What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here.
Realistically, you really didn't offer anything. Just some vague analogies with some open-ended examples.
I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you.
From creationist sources, which I have pointed out that they skew the information ridiculously or just don't know what they're talking about. Any professor or scientist that's going to use a watchmaker approach is just wading in self deception. Unfortunately the ones I see preaching this are all religious.
I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous.
Can you use these names against me though? Or has Satan deluded me for educating myself on how mystical thinking is false?
However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far
And I don't intend to press your button! Sorry if it seems like I am. These are really the only words I can use as they match the description of what's being presented. If they're far too harsh, I'll try finding others. No prob.
When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place. We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later. Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says.
Queen will have a field day with this one. I'm too famished to write a few paragraphs though. I may later. Let me just put it to you this way through an example and some soulless internet copy/pasting-
"A man living in NYC was always claiming that terrorists were going to hit NYC big. Then September 11 happened. Therefore he is a prophet."
I think you can see the problem here.
For a prophecy to be credible, it needs to:
1) Be time-bound. Give a deadline for the prediction to come true or not happen. Otherwise, you can simply say it hasn't happened yet.
2) Predict a highly unusual event. Saying something that has a 50% chance of occurring isn't that impressive. Even if it's 10%, it merely means that 1 out of 10 prophets are going to score by luck. This is not asking for too much - if you knew that 9/11 was going to happen, you can be really specific about a lot of details. e.g. You can give the exact number of people who would die. You can give the exact number of terrorists or you can give the exact numbers of the flights. Just saying that a big natural disaster will soon hit the USA is not impressive.
3) Make the prediction before the event. This is of course the very definition of a prophecy. You don't wait for the event to happen, and then claim to have predicted it. You predict first and not modify it thereafter.
4) Be clear and precise. Prophecies that are so vague as to be able to fit into any event are not impressive. You can't brag about being a sharpshooter if you're aiming for the ocean from a boat.
5) Be correct all the time. Prophecies from God are supposed to be 100% accurate. So if even one turns out to be wrong - and clumsy excuses made to explain it away or cover it up - then you know the source isn't divine. A prophet who guesses right sometimes and guesses wrong other times isn't a prophet. We can all do that ourselves.
Do we create our reality and the things within it from our fantasy and fictional ideas? Many of the events and things created in this world could be done a million other ways..cars could look differently, planes could look different, we have shaped much of this world not completely in how it must be but in how our imaginations perceived it to be. This also applies to prophecy..did the event happen because the prohecy was true or did the prophecy come true because people made it?
The fact is that revelations (being mostly inspired by mushrooms)is so symbolic that it could really mean a lot of different things and for someone to take one thing like chip implants and associate it with the whole number of the beast thing and say that is a fulfilled prophecy is really stretching it.
Now, if you wish, please share some of the Book of Revelations prophecies if they meet these requirements.
Edit: In the end, you have to turn them over to what they want to believe. They are going to anyway. It doesn't make the sadness any more palatable, but you fought the good fight.
Says the lady who thinks faith healing is authentic and flatout lied about Jdog's research.
Just a minute there buster.........jdogs research...you mean on the trinity? Answered with the same Bible she used to refute the Oneness of God. Which is hilarious because she doesn't even believe in the Bible or God.
Or the fact that she just doesn't agree with miracle healing....not exactly research, even though she posted a lot of bulbous words that actually said nothing except that she didn't believe in it. There is documentation in the medical community that lend proof to miracle healing. What you want to do (with jdog) is try to explain those away with your attempt to cloud the issue with all your explanations of: well maybe they didn't actually have that disease, etc., etc.
Here's some prophetic writings. Of course you won't believe it because it's Bible. Anyway here goes. I love these scriptures.
Revelations: 22:11-20
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
And, behold I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches, I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say. Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly.
Amen.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
He is coming, and He is the righteous Judge. This prophecy will come true.
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Quote from jcribb:
Falconer,
I don't wish to share anything with you until you at least read the Book of Revelation. You can't discuss what you don't know. If you have read it, then you already know of the prophecies. Isaiah is another book with prophecies.
Quote from Falconer:
A legitimate request I suppose. For the record, I have actually read it. The problem is that it was when I was 12, so unfortunately I don't remember much of it. But I do remember it being very vague. I remember my mom explaining it to me and even then my words had a lot of "but"s in them. I also recall Teflonfanatic quoting many of the prophecies in the past, and they were very vague as well.
The Book of Revelation is anything but vague. It's more chilling when a person reads about what has happened like the prophets said, what is happening, and what will happen. From a 12 year old aspect, reading it would be quite different than reading it as an adult. It also makes a huge difference to someone reading it as a nonfiction as compared to fiction.
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Just a minute there buster.........jdogs research...you mean on the trinity?
No-- the faith healing.
Or the fact that she just doesn't agree with miracle healing....not exactly research, even though she posted a lot of bulbous words that actually said nothing except that she didn't believe in it. There is documentation in the medical community that lend proof to miracle healing. What you want to do (with jdog) is try to explain those away with your attempt to cloud the issue with all your explanations of: well maybe they didn't actually have that disease, etc., etc.
There is no documentation in the medical community for saying faith healing is true. There are flukes, and that positive thinking does help, but that's about it. If miracle healing were true with truly-faithful christians, not one of them would be disabled or have any untreatable disease. Can you back up this claim? Because I've seen these disabled followers who still think this stuff is legit. And you're the one clouding the issue here because of your mysticism. Not me. I want support of your claim, and you have nothing that supasses any elementary skepticism.
Here's some prophetic writings. Of course you won't believe it because it's Bible. Anyway here goes. I love these scriptures.
I don't think the bible is 100% fiction. There is some historical context in there that is quite interesting.
He is coming, and He is the righteous Judge. This prophecy will come true.
How is this red text prophetic? I'd elaborate my position, but I'm afraid of the defensive curse at the end pointed to those who question it!
The Book of Revelation is anything but vague. It's more chilling when a person reads about what has happened like the prophets said, what is happening, and what will happen. From a 12 year old aspect, reading it would be quite different than reading it as an adult. It also makes a huge difference to someone reading it as a nonfiction as compared to fiction.
Well the whole age thing-- definitely. That goes without saying. But I've been reading a bit of it via http://www.revelationbibleprophecy.org/index.html and...I'm still not seeing anything here that supports any legitimate prophecy. All I really see here are vague examples involving beasts that are on par with Nostradamus's work. Sorry if it sounds like ridicule, but these could be interpreted as anything. What passages make you believe this; which ones stand out the most for you that have thick and unquestionable ties to actual events?
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Quote from Falconer:
Well the whole age thing-- definitely. That goes without saying. But I've been reading a bit of it via http://www.revelationbibleprophecy.org/index.html and...I'm still not seeing anything here that supports any legitimate prophecy. All I really see here are vague examples involving beasts that are on par with Nostradamus's work. Sorry if it sounds like ridicule, but these could be interpreted as anything. What passages make you believe this; which ones stand out the most for you that have thick and unquestionable ties to actual events?
Revelation 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [Hades] and of death.”
He that liveth, was dead, alive forever - This is a clear description of Jesus who lived on earth, died for the sins of mankind and then rose to live for ever more. Death has no more dominion over Him. (Romans 6:9)
(courtesy of your link you used: http://www.revelationbibleprophecy.org/revelation1.html)
That's all for now. Things to do.
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Falconer......next time your at the Doc's for one thing or another, ask him or her, if there are any documented cases of healing. Doesn't hurt to ask.
Here's my favorite prophesy verses:
I Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
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If u don't believe in the Devil then u do know God do u .if there is no evil then is the god or his son .if there is no god then there is no people.
d
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Falconer......next time your at the Doc's for one thing or another, ask him or her, if there are any documented cases of healing. Doesn't hurt to ask.
Here's my favorite prophesy verses:
I Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
:thumbsup:
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Quote from Annella:
Or the fact that she just doesn't agree with miracle healing....not exactly research, even though she posted a lot of bulbous words that actually said nothing except that she didn't believe in it. There is documentation in the medical community that lend proof to miracle healing. What you want to do (with jdog) is try to explain those away with your attempt to cloud the issue with all your explanations of: well maybe they didn't actually have that disease, etc., etc.
Please tell me what 'bulbous' words are, because that is NOT a description that can be applied to words - check a dictionary some time why don't you. I stated there were things that can not be explained. There are people who have recovered from diseases and the result/cause is listed as "idiopathic" which means of an unknown cause or source, just as a disease can be "idiopathic" meaning we do NOT know what caused it. I told you what sources I used to search for this medical documentation of miracle healings. These are sources YOU have no way to research through, so how dare you say I posted "I didn't believe in it" when I HAVE said, several times, there are things I and no one could explain that have been witnessed. You are the one claiming there is documentation of miracles, so YOU need to show the proof! If it is there, then bring it on and I will most definitely share it with my colleaques. I am sure they would LOVE to know about them and would hire all of you to come in a cure our patients. Falconer covered some of this in his reply to you below, which I quoted. As he said, you are the one clouding the issue with all your 'mysticism', blathering on about bible verses and scripture. Sorry, but that won't get you a license to practice medicine or a DEA number to prescribe medications. I know I can become a pastor online, can you become a medical practioner online????? psshh
If you are going to make claims, then you better back them up with something, 'buster' - LOL. It's people like you that are so very dangerous to all the desperate, ill people out there. If you don't care what I have to say, then stop spreading all the BS about healing people because I will not sit by and let it go. If you ARE going to address what I write, please take the time to address what I actually write and not what you think I write.
Quote from Falconer:
There is no documentation in the medical community for saying faith healing is true. There are flukes, and that positive thinking does help, but that's about it. If miracle healing were true with truly-faithful christians, not one of them would be disabled or have any untreatable disease. Can you back up this claim? Because I've seen these disabled followers who still think this stuff is legit. And you're the one clouding the issue here because of your mysticism. Not me. I want support of your claim, and you have nothing that supasses any elementary skepticism.
Falconer, please do ask your doctor about the miracle healings he has seen documented and then get me the databases, journals, records, etc., so that I can see them also! ;)
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@Annella:
As for the post about the Trinity not being in the Bible? I used words from CARM and THEY used scripture to back up THEIR writing. Besides, if I want to use A.A. Milne and Winnie The Pooh or anything else, including the Bible, in a post I WILL. Check your attitude - last time I looked, you weren't running FC or this Forum.
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Falconer......next time your at the Doc's for one thing or another, ask him or her, if there are any documented cases of healing. Doesn't hurt to ask.
I'm at work right now, and fortunately their is a health careers area I visit during work. I'll ask some of the nurses I know if they're there today.
Falconer, please do ask your doctor about the miracle healings he has seen documented and then get me the databases, journals, records, etc., so that I can see them also!
lol yeah...I don't expect anything. Too bad it's not real. :(
Jcribb-- I'll write back to you soon about the prophecy stuff.
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@Annella:
As for the post about the Trinity not being in the Bible? I used words from CARM and THEY used scripture to back up THEIR writing. Besides, if I want to use A.A. Milne and Winnie The Pooh or anything else, including the Bible, in a post I WILL. Check your attitude - last time I looked, you weren't running FC or this Forum.
Uh, last time I checked you weren't running FC either......so what was that statement about? Since you have stated that you DON'T believe the Bible or God, what is the big deal about using the Bible to post anything to prove your statement? Unless you want to retract that....and now say that you do believe in God and the Bible?
No, CARM and THEY did not use scripture to back up the "Trinity" or IT being in the Bible. I gave a lot of scripture to back up that the word "trinity", or the concept that it's used, is not in the Bible.
Check your attitude! You do use a lot of unnecessary words to say nothing except to rag on whatever. I get tired of your ranting for nothing. What has my calling as an Evangelist have to do with being a medical practitioner? You boast all the time how you are so medically versed. Who cares. Your not "all that". Nobody is. Get a grip on reality, and realize you are just a person on the other side of a keyboard having a discussion....not a trial about who is who and what they do. I use to be an Accountant when I worked before going into the Ministry. Big deal!
Talk to any Doc that has been practicing for any length of time, and they will tell you that people get healed. I don't have to prove nothing to you jdog. What makes you think that I can gain access to peoples personal medical records and databases? You know that falls under the privacy act, and not available to me. There are medical professionals that can vouch that people get healed.
Guess what jdog, I don't really care if you believe it or not. I've seen it with my own eyes, and someday you are going to have to give account for your unbelief. Just go on in your own pride and smugness. Your full of yourself. It's sickening.
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Your full of yourself. It's sickening.
Funny, thats how I feel about you. And its quite obvious, I'm not the only one.
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@Annella:
As for the post about the Trinity not being in the Bible? I used words from CARM and THEY used scripture to back up THEIR writing. Besides, if I want to use A.A. Milne and Winnie The Pooh or anything else, including the Bible, in a post I WILL. Check your attitude - last time I looked, you weren't running FC or this Forum.
This was the discussion below
Quote from: jordandog on January 19, 2011, 06:55:36 am
So the word 'Trinity' is NOT in the Bible, who cares? It all comes down to what you believe is 'correct' vs what others believe is 'correct'. Just because you/anyone might disagree and think that your interpretation is "the only one that is valid because of how YOU choose to interpret scripture in your particular sect" does NOT make it truth. The following is courtesy of CARM - a site that is quite willing to be openminded and not locked into the tunnel vision that far too many are.
Some critics of the Trinity doctrine claim that since the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible it isn't true. Furthermore, some assert that if God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have stated the doctrine clearly.
First of all, it is illogical to claim that since the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible that its concept is not taught therein. This kind of objection usually demonstrates a prejudice against the teaching of the Trinity. Instead, the person should look to God's word to see if it is taught or not.
Second, there are many biblical concepts that people believe in that don't have a specific word describing them used in the Bible. For example, the word "bible" is not found in the Bible, but we use it anyway to describe the Bible. Likewise, "omniscience" which means "all-knowing," "omnipotence" which means "all-powerful," and "omnipresence" which means "present everywhere," are words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God. We don't have to see a specific word in the Bible in order for the concept it describes to be true.
Following are other words that the Bible does not use but the concepts are mentioned. (my words here -I note there are many that have been written to death and used as 'point makers' by certain posters.):
•Atheism is the teaching that there is no God. "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1).
•Divinity which means divine quality or godlike character. Yet, we speak of the godlike quality of the Lord God. See Psalm 139.
•Incarnation which means the word (God) who became flesh. Yet, this is definitely taught in the Bible (John 1:1,14).
•Monotheism is the teaching that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:eight).
•Rapture is the teaching that the Christians who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18).
So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument. Furthermore, to say that if God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have clearly taught it in scripture, is also an invalid argument. Something does not have to be clearly formulated in the Bible to be valid. Not all things taught in the Bible are perfectly clear. Take a look at the book of Revelation. It contains many things that are cryptic that must be interpreted after examining all of the Bible. Even then, there are disagreements as to what some things mean. Yet, we know that the truths there are true whether or not we discover them.
Nevertheless, there are scriptures that demonstrate a Trinitarian aspect.
•Matt. 28:19, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
•2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
•Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
•Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
*This post might fall under off-topic, but I have seen the 'non-trinity' argument one too many times.*
Quote from Annella
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost? Isn't God the Father? Yes, and the Holy Ghost also.
I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy, great is the mystery of Godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into Glory.
Is this scripture about God or Jesus? Both, they are ONE.
Colossions 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power.
So in Jesus body is the Godhead? Yes!
II Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world (satan) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the Glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Jesus is the IMAGE of God? Yes, looking at Jesus, is seeing God!
Colossians 1:12-15 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us unto the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Jesus is the image of the invisible God? Yes!
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made. V 14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Word was God, and was made flesh? Yes!
Isaiah 43: 10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no Savior.
But I thought Jesus was our Savior? God, who is Jesus, is our Savior.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
The Name (singular) of the 3 titles. I'm a mother, preacher, woman, teacher, Christian, daughter, etc., but none of those titles is my name.
Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That's why I'm baptized in Jesus Name, which is the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the Spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Only 1 throne, and only ONE sat upon it.
Revelation 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Jesus saying he is the first and the last? Only God is Alpha and Omega (read Isaiah 43:10-11 again above)
In laymens terms: God made himself a body to reconcile man unto himself. God is invisible, and when we see Jesus, we will see the image of God in heaven through Jesus Christ. Or those who are saved. When Jesus is noted as God's son, it is referring to his flesh. Some scriptures refer to all 3 attributes (body, soul, spirit) but they are only in Jesus bodily....ONE GOD the word Jesus in the hebrew means Jehovah Savior, or Jehovah has become our Salvation.
The revelation of who Jesus really is, is spiritual revelation. You cannot separate the 3. They crucified Jesus for a reason. What was it? Jesus basically told them he was God manifested in the flesh. They would not accept Jesus as their Messiah, and crucified Him.
I have about 40 more scriptures I can list if anybody wants them. I can't write them all out. This is a full 3 day seminar on the One God revelation.
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Your full of yourself. It's sickening.
Funny, thats how I feel about you. And its quite obvious, I'm not the only one.
Oh I'm crushed.........LOLOLOL :angel11:
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Bulbous: shaped like a bulb; swollen; swelling; bulging. Growing from or bearing bulbs.
The context I was using it in (Biblically).
II Peter 2:18
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lust of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean, escaped from them, who live in error.
Jude 16
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
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Annella,
Why you bother encouraging other christians on here, when you are part of a belief system that considers itself above the rest and you interpret (and change) scripture to fit the way you want things to be, amazes me. The examples of the Trinity deal come to mind because all you did was post a load of words that you believe countered what the experts at CARM (not me) wrote - amazing. You add to the gospel when it fits your agenda. I think that is horrendously screwed up, a total mindgame, and especially on kids who grow up in the religion. I have 2 very close friends I grew up with who left the UPC, Oneness Pentacostalists, as soon as they were old enough and never looked back. They still carry scars from the mindgames to this day, but have NEVER walked away from god or religion, just from this one. I understand that many Oneness followers also believe you are the only ones who will get into heaven anyway, so maybe that is why I have felt you come across as superior when these discussions get into how everyone views scripture. This has been in the back of my mind since I first saw you declare what your religion actually was. Your religion has been accused of interpreting to fit the O.P. doctrines and theology, even when it is vastly different than other Protestant interpretations. O.P.'s have been charged with spiritual legalism by members of other faiths and have even been referred to as a 'cultlike' group because you are so strict when it comes to appearances, pride, superiority, and you put the laws of the bible, again as you interpret them, over any grace from god. Either everyone follows the rules or they have no chance and a person's own spirit is meant to be broken instead of encouraged. My friends were never allowed to do any of the perfectly innocent things the rest of us did when we were growing up. Add this to the fact that you cannot, or will not, answer anything in your own words like others do (jcribb does), but instead you have to post a mile long list of passages. Do you actually possess a mind of your own anymore? I have a mind and I use it in real time with real actions. Maybe I should try talking people out of cancer, etc., and then I would certainly be less exhausted, would get a LOT more sleep, and would get off the emotional roller coaster because I wouldn't have to worry about any patients. I might even recommend it at the next team meeting or mortality review!
No, I am not "full of myself" and I am not "smug", you may think so, I just know what I know. I also know that my hands and my mind will do a hell of a lot more to help someone who is ill or dying than your constant stream of archaic and unproven statements from a book. The next time you are in need of medical help, say appendicitis or something, don't bother going to a doctor - just talk yourself out of it and let us know how that works out for you. :thumbsup:
As far as your post defending YOUR use of 'bulbous' and using it to descibe my words.....are you serious?! That is so far out of context and off the mark, but IS a wonderful example of the legalism I mentioned - you pushed the envelope to try and make that one fit.;D
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Annella,
Why you bother encouraging other christians on here, when you are part of a belief system that considers itself above the rest and you interpret (and change) scripture to fit the way you want things to be, amazes me. The examples of the Trinity deal come to mind because all you did was post a load of words that you believe countered what the experts at CARM (not me) wrote - amazing. You add to the gospel when it fits your agenda. I think that is horrendously screwed up, a total mindgame, and especially on kids who grow up in the religion. I have 2 very close friends I grew up with who left the UPC, Oneness Pentacostalists, as soon as they were old enough and never looked back. They still carry scars from the mindgames to this day, but have NEVER walked away from god or religion, just from this one. I understand that many Oneness followers also believe you are the only ones who will get into heaven anyway, so maybe that is why I have felt you come across as superior when these discussions get into how everyone views scripture. This has been in the back of my mind since I first saw you declare what your religion actually was. Your religion has been accused of interpreting to fit the O.P. doctrines and theology, even when it is vastly different than other Protestant interpretations. O.P.'s have been charged with spiritual legalism by members of other faiths and have even been referred to as a 'cultlike' group because you are so strict when it comes to appearances, pride, superiority, and you put the laws of the bible, again as you interpret them, over any grace from god. Either everyone follows the rules or they have no chance and a person's own spirit is meant to be broken instead of encouraged. My friends were never allowed to do any of the perfectly innocent things the rest of us did when we were growing up. Add this to the fact that you cannot, or will not, answer anything in your own words like others do (jcribb does), but instead you have to post a mile long list of passages. Do you actually possess a mind of your own anymore? I have a mind and I use it in real time with real actions. Maybe I should try talking people out of cancer, etc., and then I would certainly be less exhausted, would get a LOT more sleep, and would get off the emotional roller coaster because I wouldn't have to worry about any patients. I might even recommend it at the next team meeting or mortality review!
No, I am not "full of myself" and I am not "smug", you may think so, I just know what I know. I also know that my hands and my mind will do a hell of a lot more to help someone who is ill or dying than your constant stream of archaic and unproven statements from a book. The next time you are in need of medical help, say appendicitis or something, don't bother going to a doctor - just talk yourself out of it and let us know how that works out for you. :thumbsup:
As far as your post defending YOUR use of 'bulbous' and using it to descibe my words.....are you serious?! That is so far out of context and off the mark, but IS a wonderful example of the legalism I mentioned - you pushed the envelope to try and make that one fit.;D
Really? Anyone can look up the definition and see I didn't stretch anything.
I never add to the Gospel, and I never change scripture. I post it in it's perfect form from the KJV.....not a lot of made up words. You are telling a lie right there.
Never have I said that any denomination or church for that matter will be the only ones going to heaven....lie again!
Ah, now we are getting down to it. Your 2 friends or whatever you feel my religion or whomever, has nothing to do with me. You have an axe to grind, and I'm your target? LOL Everything is becoming clear why you have singled me out for your personal verbal onslaught of rubbish. Now I'm in a cult?
The Grace of God can keep anybody. The Lord said: "My Grace is sufficient". Also, that "His strength is made perfect in our weakness". Nobody is superior or better than anybody else. I've also said this numerous times.
Your post is nothing more than a "stab" at my walk with God, filtered with lies and peppered with false facts, because you have a problem with Oneness religions. Especially with UPC. News Flash...I'm not UPC....LOL We went Independent 4 months ago. However, the doctrine of the UPCI is correct, and we still adhere to it, and it's teachings. I have many friends in the UPC, and attend most of the conferences and special meetings. They are not a cult, but the fastest growing movement in the US.
For the rest of it.......phhhtttt
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Oh my goodness, things have really jumped into the extremely hot frying pan in here. I haven't been well today, and so am just now getting on.
I would like to say that since Christians believe in God's Word (the Bible), it's only natural that Annella, myself, and others on here would use verses to back ourselves and themselves up when speaking of something at odds with another. Usually they also write something to explain the scripture, what it means and how it applies to the situation at hand. Unfortunately, since many don't believe in God, nor His Word, the given verses as answers are usually not accepted as any kind of proof, which then causes problems for both sides. Then when ex-believers try to use Scripture it's like it's being used against what the Christian thinks. If someone doesn't believe in God then why would they want to use God's Word when it's the literal Word of God? Confusion reigns then, and God is "not the author of confusion."
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Oh my goodness, things have really jumped into the extremely hot frying pan in here. I haven't been well today, and so am just now getting on.
I would like to say that since Christians believe in God's Word (the Bible), it's only natural that Annella, myself, and others on here would use verses to back ourselves and themselves up when speaking of something at odds with another. Usually they also write something to explain the scripture, what it means and how it applies to the situation at hand. Unfortunately, since many don't believe in God, nor His Word, the given verses as answers are usually not accepted as any kind of proof, which then causes problems for both sides. Then when ex-believers try to use Scripture it's like it's being used against what the Christian thinks. If someone doesn't believe in God then why would they want to use God's Word when it's the literal Word of God? Confusion reigns then, and God is "not the author of confusion."
I couldn't have said it any better Jcribb. We as Christians live the Word and pattern our lives after it. You can no more separate a real Christian from God's Word, that separate a bird from it's feathers.
I'm under the impression that we can't win no matter what we say...or don't say.
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Soooo I was fortunate enough to talk to one soon-to-be CNA nurse today. Presenting the idea was.....very awkward. :confused1: They told me they hadn't heard of anything on it; just that religious practices should be tolerated if it helps comfort the patient. You'd think something like this would be extremely important to learn about, seeing how it's so amazing at healing THE (^*&@$)(%^$@ AIDS VIRUS, so I've come to these 2 possible conclusions-
The health care system is run by the evil ghoulish serpent-beast antagonist Satan the Devil
OR
Faith healing is just a comforting (and sometimes an extremely dangerous) practice for those who cannot remain emotionally stable while stricken with an ailment.
So, again, with every single shred of evidence presented including my research, Jdog's research, James Randi's hilarious debunking, truckloads of real and virtual sources, etc. and while applying a rational, realistic, and non-delusioned non-superstitious thought process, this just is another small addition to the massive pile of dung having to do with legitimacy in faith healing. Boy howdy. I can smell it 2 towns over.
Jcribb--
Thanks for posting the stuff the other day. The thing I was looking for though were more of legitimate prophecies that have already come to pass. You know, stuff that's too precise to be argued against.
I'm under the impression that we can't win no matter what we say...or don't say.
You can bring a horse to realit--I...I mean water, but you can't make them drink.
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Falconer,
These 2 prophecies that have come to pass actually were prophecied back in the Old Testament from the Books of Isaiah and Jeremiah. The link I'm going to put on here for you, includes the actual history during the time of the cities of Babylon and Tyre. It's about half-way down the page where it discusses what the 2 prophets said, and what ended up happening in these 2 cities hundreds of years later, and how Jerusalem is re-captured, while Babylon is still no longer a city of commerce even though it is in an ideal location. It brings Alexander the Great and others from history that a lot of us as students have studied about.
http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Verac/C-1201.htm
Just a side note, too, is that Daniel and Revelation are filled with parallel prophecy, and a lot of Daniel's is prophecying about the coming of the Messiah, Jesus. A lot of Revelation is foretelling what is to still come, even though there are those ones that have been believed to have happened. There are ones who agree with these as well as those who don't. But I'll give you the link. I'm still working on this, though.
http://www.raptureforums.com/FeaturedCommentary/bibleprophecycomingtrue.cfm
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Your full of yourself. It's sickening.
Funny, thats how I feel about you. And its quite obvious, I'm not the only one.
Oh I'm crushed.........LOLOLOL :angel11:
And I find it funny that a 60+ year old woman uses the term "LOLOLOL".
;D
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Your full of yourself. It's sickening.
Funny, thats how I feel about you. And its quite obvious, I'm not the only one.
Oh I'm crushed.........LOLOLOL :angel11:
And I find it funny that a 60+ year old woman uses the term "LOLOLOL".
;D
A lot of people use LOL - it doesn't matter the age. You know that. :angry7: This is a perfect example for people to see how you can get mean. It is also uncalled for to put someone's age on here. Many people don't broadcast that for different reasons. None of it is even relevant to the subject at hand.
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Cool story bro
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It is also uncalled for to put someone's age on here. Many people don't broadcast that for different reasons.
I certainly do not want to sound disrespectful to you in saying this, but Annella has poster her own age quite a few times in different areas of FC. I don't see what the big deal is, regardless of whether or not QON's post was 'relevant' to this topic.
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This is a perfect example for people to see how you can get mean. ...None of it is even relevant to the subject at hand.
I'm sorry, but you must need to adjust your screen resolution. You've obviously missed the numerous times your pal Annella has been mean to other people herself. She is the only person who has a problem with me, and she is the only person I dislike with a passion on this forum. Obviously those feelings don't come from nowhere.
It is not admirable to blindly defend someone who is doing wrong, jcribb, just because they agree with your religious stance!
As for relevance? Uh, she insulted sflynt, so I think my comment was perfectly relevant.
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It is also uncalled for to put someone's age on here. Many people don't broadcast that for different reasons.
I certainly do not want to sound disrespectful to you in saying this, but Annella has poster her own age quite a few times in different areas of FC. I don't see what the big deal is, regardless of whether or not QON's post was 'relevant' to this topic.
Because she was stirring the pot. There's enough sparks already in here without that.
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This is a perfect example for people to see how you can get mean. ...None of it is even relevant to the subject at hand.
I'm sorry, but you must need to adjust your screen resolution. You've obviously missed the numerous times your pal Annella has been mean to other people herself. She is the only person who has a problem with me, and she is the only person I dislike with a passion on this forum. Obviously those feelings don't come from nowhere.
It is not admirable to blindly defend someone who is doing wrong, jcribb, just because they agree with your religious stance!
As for relevance? Uh, she insulted sflynt, so I think my comment was perfectly relevant.
If you will look back, Annella was responding to sflynt's comment. You are still stirring.....
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I'm here Jcribb and decided to check my email....I've got 30 minutes until service.
Yes, I was 60 the later part of last year. I also say "cool" to my grandson and other times. I've also been known to say "my goodness, and "God forbid", "Lord help us" and "get out of town".
qon....you are very mean. I'm not the only person that has a problem with you. You don't have to like me or I you ect. This is not a high school popularity contest. I'm bold in my writings, especially against blasphemy against the Lord and His Word. That will never change. My advice is to not post to me then. There are ignore buttons on here for a reason.
I know you dislike me with a passion, so does the enemy of my soul. I believe it's because I stand for what I believe with confidence and assurance. It is yea or nay with me....no in between. I believe every single word of the Bible, and Love God with as much as is within me. He is first in my life, and nobody will occupy that place but Him. Now......if you will excuse me, I'm going to worship, and to tell Him just that.
Peace unto you Jcribb..........wish you were here with me.
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These 2 prophecies that have come to pass actually were prophecied back in the Old Testament from the Books of Isaiah and Jeremiah. The link I'm going to put on here for you, includes the actual history during the time of the cities of Babylon and Tyre.
Alright let's take a basic look at this one-
'Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, the glory of the Babylonians pride, will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah. She will never be inhabited or lived in through all generations; no Arab will pitch his tent there, no shepherd will rest his flocks there. But desert creatures will lie there, .. I will turn her into a place for owls and into a swampland; I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,' declares the Lord Almighty...
'Flee out of Babylon; leave the land of the Babylonians, and be like the goats that lead the flock. For I will stir up and bring against Babylon an alliance of great nations from the land of the north. They will take up their positions against her, and from the north she will be captured... So Babylonia will be plundered;... Like a lion coming up from Jordan's thickets to a rich pastureland, I will chase Babylon from its land in an instant... Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken... I will fill you with men, as with a swarm of locusts, and they will shout in triumph over you... No rock will be taken from you for a cornerstone, nor any stone for a foundation, for you will be desolate forever,' declares the Lord.
The sea will rise over Babylon; its roaring waves will cover her. Her towns will be desolate, a dry and desert land, a land where no one lives... I will make her officials and wise men drunk,... they will sleep forever and not awake... Babylon's thick walls will be leveled... When you finish reading this scroll, tie a stone to it and throw it into the Euphrates. Then say, 'So will Babylon sink to rise no more...' (from Jeremiah chapters 50 and 51 NASB)
I'm no historian or bible scholar here so I can't really comment on all of the historical-individual or army movements this link comments on, but a simple search shows that Babylon (modern day Iraq around Baghdad) are inhabited. Even some of the ruins have been built over by that dead *bleep* Hussein. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/world/middleeast/03babylon.html Other basic reasonings I could have made mention of are the legitimacy of the writings- considering the bible has been rewritten, it's probable that the newer writers would tie things in to make it seem more legitimate. Authors do this all the time- write a story, reread it, and then add connections so it makes sense further into the book. Even Harry Potter connects things that happen in the later books. Either way, this is a false prophecy as it's simply not correct. It preaches false information and is vague at the same time. Isaiah 13:1-21 are even more vague and primitive.
Just a side note, too, is that Daniel and Revelation are filled with parallel prophecy, and a lot of Daniel's is prophecying about the coming of the Messiah, Jesus. A lot of Revelation is foretelling what is to still come, even though there are those ones that have been believed to have happened. There are ones who agree with these as well as those who don't. But I'll give you the link. I'm still working on this, though.
For example, the European Union is an example of a revised roman empire that is prophecized to appear in the last days per the prophet Daniel. The emergence of worldwide communications such as cable TV, Satellites, and the Internet have provided us with the means of fulfilling the prophecies of Revelation where it says that the whole world would marvel at the two witnesses as they lay slain in the streets of Jerusalem.
Wut? This 2nd link is just FULL of ridiculous stretches. After quoting this one above, do I really need to explain why these are false from the get-go? I think it's fairly obvious as to why the author didn't add the bible quotes he was apparently referencing.
I know you dislike me with a passion, so does the enemy of my soul. I believe it's because I stand for what I believe with confidence and assurance. It is yea or nay with me....no in between. I believe every single word of the Bible, and Love God with as much as is within me. He is first in my life, and nobody will occupy that place but Him. Now......if you will excuse me, I'm going to worship, and to tell Him just that.
Creepy.
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I know you dislike me with a passion, so does the enemy of my soul. I believe it's because I stand for what I believe with confidence and assurance. It is yea or nay with me....no in between. I believe every single word of the Bible, and Love God with as much as is within me. He is first in my life, and nobody will occupy that place but Him. Now......if you will excuse me, I'm going to worship, and to tell Him just that.
Yes, very creepy, Falc. Think about this one. Simply substitute Quran for Bible and Allah for God, same thinking, but don't tell her that.
(But we all know that christians have NEVER killed in the name of religion or shown any violence, right?) ;)
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Quote from jordandog:
(But we all know that christians have NEVER killed in the name of religion or shown any violence, right?)
Unfortunately, there have been Christians (as they call themselves) who have killed in the name of religion and shown violence. It just shows that any religion aside, no matter what religion, people are human and do stupid, idiotic things. Any Christian or non-christian who takes the law into his own hands and kills someone in the name of their religion, or no religion, is breaking the law and should suffer their penalty. It does make genuine Christians (whatever religion) look like phonies. I have to wonder what god they were really worshipping in the first place...
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Quote from jordandog:
(But we all know that christians have NEVER killed in the name of religion or shown any violence, right?)
Unfortunately, there have been Christians (as they call themselves) who have killed in the name of religion and shown violence. It just shows that any religion aside, no matter what religion, people are human and do stupid, idiotic things. Any Christian or non-christian who takes the law into his own hands and kills someone in the name of their religion, or no religion, is breaking the law and should suffer their penalty. It does make genuine Christians (whatever religion) look like phonies. I have to wonder what god they were really worshipping in the first place...
I agree with your statement 110%. When anyone asks me why I no longer 'follow' a religion, that is always in my first 3 reasons I give them - followed by many others if they still care to hear them. ;)
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While Christians are to obey the laws of the land, If man made laws that were contrary to what God made, then it would be a problem. However, if man made a law say.....that Christ cannot be worshipped any more, that law would be broken by any Christian worth their salt. It goes against God's law.
I find it puzzling when people come up with excuses why they are not Christians or why they don't serve God. The fact that it's a personal choice is everything. If you chose to serve God, it's because you love Him and chose to follow Him....no matter what, or no matter who. Not because so and so does, or doesn't. If you let anyone dictate your walk with God, then you really haven't chose to follow God at all, but to let man dictate your choices for spirituality.
There will be many excuses given on Judgment why someone did not follow the Lord, but there will be no excuse that will hold water on that day. Every person will answer for themselves, and the dictates of their own hearts and choices they made on earth. Pointing to anybody and saying because of who, what, when, how, is not going to cut it. "But Lord....your so called Christians were hypocritical so I would not serve you", won't stand. Everyone will have to give account for themselves, and if they did or did not choose to serve Him no matter what.
If you really have your eyes on the Lord, nothing will deter you....nothing! If you put your trust in man, then you have put it in someone who can fail. God never fails. no matter what is going on around you. Our eyes must be on God, not the failure of man, or actions contrary thereof.
Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you chose not to serve Him....that is your choice, but to blame someone else, or something else, is not going to fly come Judgement.
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Quote from Falconer:
Well the whole age thing-- definitely. That goes without saying. But I've been reading a bit of it via http://www.revelationbibleprophecy.org/index.html and...I'm still not seeing anything here that supports any legitimate prophecy. All I really see here are vague examples involving beasts that are on par with Nostradamus's work. Sorry if it sounds like ridicule, but these could be interpreted as anything. What passages make you believe this; which ones stand out the most for you that have thick and unquestionable ties to actual events?
Revelation 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [Hades] and of death.”
He that liveth, was dead, alive forever - This is a clear description of Jesus who lived on earth, died for the sins of mankind and then rose to live for ever more. Death has no more dominion over Him. (Romans 6:9)
(courtesy of your link you used: http://www.revelationbibleprophecy.org/revelation1.html)
That's all for now. Things to do.
Israel was a prophecy the Word says it would be born in a day, and it was. and that it will be a melting pot and all the Nations of the
world would come against it, and it is. and that Israel is the apple of GOD's eye and when the Nations continue to stick their finger
in GOD's Eye, we will all pay - it is all coming to a head and that is all in the Bible.
As for as the devil and hell, it won't matter once you die who you believe in. What you do now on earth is all in preparation
for where you will spend eternity. The Bible speaks of the firey pit where there is no water, only crying and gnashing of teeth, and
heaven on street of gold where there will be no sickness, sadness, sorrow, pain or death.
and it is all a matter of choice, "free will" and you seem to know a lot about free will. just know that once
you are dead you will not be given choice, but you will go where you have prepared for.
I would think if I had any idea there was a Heaven, I had rather prepare to go there than hell?
but I don't have to answer for you or any one else, just me and I know I am ready.
I pray GOD sends you a real swift message of restoration and deliverance. ::)
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Yes, very creepy, Falc. Think about this one. Simply substitute Quran for Bible and Allah for God, same thinking, but don't tell her that
You could replace it with pretty much anything. It would still sound creepy. Such words are from those of cults. But oh no, this one's different cuz it's gotta be real! :o I'm not going to even bother quoting her post above mine because it's...obtuse.
Unfortunately, there have been Christians (as they call themselves) who have killed in the name of religion and shown violence. It just shows that any religion aside, no matter what religion, people are human and do stupid, idiotic things. Any Christian or non-christian who takes the law into his own hands and kills someone in the name of their religion, or no religion, is breaking the law and should suffer their penalty. It does make genuine Christians (whatever religion) look like phonies. I have to wonder what god they were really worshipping in the first place...
Totally. But it's not just killing. It starts with the deluding of the decision making process which can end up doing more damage than just killing.
Israel was a prophecy the Word says it would be born in a day, and it was. and that it will be a melting pot and all the Nations of the
world would come against it, and it is. and that Israel is the apple of GOD's eye and when the Nations continue to stick their finger
in GOD's Eye, we will all pay - it is all coming to a head and that is all in the Bible.
Israel has always had a history of getting it's eye fingered by random nations. Point me to the specific verses with precise names and dates, or Nostradamus's claims > your claims.
As for as the devil and hell, it won't matter once you die who you believe in. What you do now on earth is all in preparation
for where you will spend eternity. The Bible speaks of the firey pit where there is no water, only crying and gnashing of teeth, and
heaven on street of gold where there will be no sickness, sadness, sorrow, pain or death.
I would think if I had any idea there was a Heaven, I had rather prepare to go there than hell?
but I don't have to answer for you or any one else, just me and I know I am ready.
*yawn* yeah. I prefer other afterlifes. I don't like these ones.
and it is all a matter of choice, "free will" and you seem to know a lot about free will.
Well thank you. And since I know a lot about it, it would make sense that your concept of a god does not allow for it, which means that I actually don't know much about it! WOAH! What a puzzle!
I pray GOD sends you a real swift message of restoration and deliverance.
How primitively rude. I shall pray to the gods that they increase your intelligence with their superior elemental powers. Therefore you shall see the error of your monotheistic ways!
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I thought it was supposed to be kept clean in here, Falconer. I can't believe you would get so riled up over a comment made by angelhome. It sounds like more of a defense reaction.
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I thought it was supposed to be kept clean in here, Falconer. I can't believe you would get so riled up over a comment made by angelhome. It sounds like more of a defense reaction.
Defensive? Not really. That statement was taken offensively obviously, but I don't care. Curses are funny. In third-world countries and in the far past, people would put curses on eachother as a way to offend and scare one another. That user's statement was offensive and taken as a curse, so I'm just (jokingly) fighting current fire with ancient fire. :icon_rr: Sorry about the harsh language though. It's not directed at you.
Edit: I'll turn it into something more tasteful!
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It's still lousy language to use to anybody....directed or not, doesn't excuse the crassness of it.
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It's still lousy language to use to anybody....directed or not, doesn't excuse the crassness of it.
Well *bleep*. Sorry. Gahhhh I mean...
(http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/b/0/0/d5/b/AAAACwZ8kEoAAAAAANWw5Q.jpg?v=1277526821000)
Tarnish notte the refinement of my lack of devilish speech impediments.
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@Falconer: Pay no attention to the Scolding Police. That's what they do, they scold. You shouldn't have to censor yourself just because they don't get your higher level of thinking, or to spare their misplaced feelings.
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I am late in the thread on this one, but have been too busy - doing that stupid and unneeded medical 'stuff'.
I'm under the impression that we can't win no matter what we say...or don't say.
Therein lies the rub - there is nothing TO win, period. If you are looking at these discussions as a matter of right vs wrong and winning vs losing, you are in the wrong place. We will all end up the same after that last dying breath. I would rather live this life I have without judging everyone on where they stand according to the Bible. I would also venture a guess that you have one enormous pile of stones still waiting to be thrown and not an unbroken window in your own 'house'. It is a big job trying to run the world. Maybe you should allow more reasonable christian folks (like jcribb for instance - talks without shoving ideas down throats and actually reads through posts and comprehends them before answering) take over for awhile.
By the way, my posts do NOT have a damn thing (Oooh, bad girl for saying 'damn', I already know) to do with my friends being Pentacostals at one time. They have everything to do with disliking superiority in how you reply to ALL who do not agree with you, tunnel vision in how you view differing opinions (other than your own and even from other christians) because you are the only one who truly knows what is going on, focus on only the most minute derogatory thing within many words written, and the way you turn posts around to make them be what you want them to be instead of reading what they actually say - I believe that may be the 100th time I have called you out on that one. This country is falling apart and you are busy visiting other countries (on someone else's dime) to "spread the word", sorry state of affairs there.
You happen to be just as rude, just as mean spirited, and just as fallible as anyone else on here. Because you couch your replies in the 'word of god' and some of us don't, you believe YOUR behaviour is upstanding. You have said before you were not always like you are now re your church and your life. That makes me wonder just how zealous a 'born again' you are, because in my experience that type of person is the most dangerous of all and also the most self-righteous. Funny how it is not just myself, QON, and Falconer who see this in you either.
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^ :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
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Thanks, sflynt, lol You are one of the Mean Girls (+Falconer, of course;)) on here now too. I caught that when I was reading through lots of posts after being out of the Forum for weeks.
QON, what a good summation of what I was saying about the "reading into of posts" and "focusing on one minute, derogatory thing" = misplaced feelings. I was stating that only as far as Annella and my posts to each other though since I seem to be able to pretty much get along with everyone else, strange eh? ;)
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yes i belive in the devil thats feeds on the evil deed
s of this world :crybaby2:
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Thanks, sflynt, lol You are one of the Mean Girls (+Falconer, of course;)) on here now too.
Oh, Falc will get a kick out of that when he sees it. ;) And ANYONE who disagrees with Annella is immediately classified as a Mean Girl.
QON, what a good summation of what I was saying about the "reading into of posts" and "focusing on one minute, derogatory thing" = misplaced feelings. I was stating that only as far as Annella and my posts to each other though since I seem to be able to pretty much get along with everyone else, strange eh? ;)
That's exactly what it is! :thumbsup: And I mentioned that too; funny how I don't have any beef with anyone but her, but she has enough beef with the rest of us to open her own McDonald's.
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@Falconer: Pay no attention to the Scolding Police. That's what they do, they scold. You shouldn't have to censor yourself just because they don't get your higher level of thinking, or to spare their misplaced feelings.
Queenofnines,
Honestly, I'm really not trying to be a "Scolding Police." I'm just trying to abide by the forum's rules when in Off-Topic: Sub: Debate and Discuss. Quote from the community page: ("Feel free to talk about anything unrelated to FusionCash -- but keep it PG!" I know that Admin has reminded everyone that there are younger people in here and I just don't think PG means some of these nasty curse words. That's all I was trying to say to Falconer. He didn't call me a name for that, he changed it (even if sarcasm was involved), and was nice to me about it.
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I am late in the thread on this one, but have been too busy - doing that stupid and unneeded medical 'stuff'.
I'm under the impression that we can't win no matter what we say...or don't say.
Therein lies the rub - there is nothing TO win, period. If you are looking at these discussions as a matter of right vs wrong and winning vs losing, you are in the wrong place. We will all end up the same after that last dying breath. I would rather live this life I have without judging everyone on where they stand according to the Bible. I would also venture a guess that you have one enormous pile of stones still waiting to be thrown and not an unbroken window in your own 'house'. It is a big job trying to run the world. Maybe you should allow more reasonable christian folks (like jcribb for instance - talks without shoving ideas down throats and actually reads through posts and comprehends them before answering) take over for awhile.
By the way, my posts do NOT have a damn thing (Oooh, bad girl for saying 'damn', I already know) to do with my friends being Pentacostals at one time. They have everything to do with disliking superiority in how you reply to ALL who do not agree with you, tunnel vision in how you view differing opinions (other than your own and even from other christians) because you are the only one who truly knows what is going on, focus on only the most minute derogatory thing within many words written, and the way you turn posts around to make them be what you want them to be instead of reading what they actually say - I believe that may be the 100th time I have called you out on that one. This country is falling apart and you are busy visiting other countries (on someone else's dime) to "spread the word", sorry state of affairs there.
You happen to be just as rude, just as mean spirited, and just as fallible as anyone else on here. Because you couch your replies in the 'word of god' and some of us don't, you believe YOUR behaviour is upstanding. You have said before you were not always like you are now re your church and your life. That makes me wonder just how zealous a 'born again' you are, because in my experience that type of person is the most dangerous of all and also the most self-righteous. Funny how it is not just myself, QON, and Falconer who see this in you either.
It's funny no matter what I say, my walk with God is being attacked. Your attack on my born again experience, ect. actually shows your bitterness and resentment towards God.....not me. I'm very strong so give me your worst. It just makes my resolve that much stronger for the Lord. Bring it on! LOL
Jealous much? The best thing to do in these perilous times is spread the Gospel as far and wide as I possibly can. News flash: It's called the Great Commission in the Bible. I've just begun, I'm going to be spreading the Gospel till my dying breath! Oh yeah!!
Mark 16:15-18
And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe, In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I "couch" my replies in the Word of God because that's what I live by. You don't because you are unbelievers....uh, not rocket science.
No, we will not all end up the same after the last dying breath. You are lying to yourself if you believe that.
I have no idea what you are talking about my life was different.....what? Yeah, there was a time I was not saved, just like every other born again Christian that left darkness for light.
I'll say it again. You are all like a bunch of snapping mutts trying to tear down anybody who proclaims this precious Truth, or stands up to your verbal attacks on Christians. Contrary to your attempt to put a difference between Jcribb and I, we know the devices of the enemy to cause discord and disunity among Christians. You said the same things about Sherene and I. Get some new material.
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Thanks, sflynt, lol You are one of the Mean Girls (+Falconer, of course;)) on here now too.
Oh, Falc will get a kick out of that when he sees it. ;) And ANYONE who disagrees with Annella is immediately classified as a Mean Girl.
That's exactly what it is! And I mentioned that too; funny how I don't have any beef with anyone but her, but she has enough beef with the rest of us to open her own McDonald's.
qon
Your post is absolutely absurd. You DO NOT get along with everybody else. You are the WORST person on here for abrasive, and verbal attacks. You can't wait to swoop down on newbies who post one thing positive about God, and you are right there to tear them apart with your poisonous words. While jdog and I don't agree on anything, she doesn't hide in the curtains, and wait to "jump" on unsuspecting people who come into D&D.
You are a BULLY!!! Plain and simple.
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It's funny no matter what I say, my walk with God is being attacked. Your attack on my born again experience, ect. actually shows your bitterness and resentment towards God.....not me. I'm very strong so give me your worst. It just makes my resolve that much stronger for the Lord. Bring it on! LOL
I am NOT attacking your "walk with god", I could care less. You have every right to believe what you want just as I do. I am pointing out your never ending hypocrosy ie "I read the bible and 'know' god, so therefore I can say whatever I want - just as long as I give the credit to him." Well, I happen to believe in the Cookie Monster, follow all his words, so you can lay blame on MY rudeness to YOU at his feet. How does that sound? It allows me to be almost as superior as you are. The Cookie Monster has never threatened me with living in hell though, he just tells me I might not get first dibs on the double fudge brownies......
Jealous much? The best thing to do in these perilous times is spread the Gospel as far and wide as I possibly can. News flash: It's called the Great Commission in the Bible. I've just begun, I'm going to be spreading the Gospel till my dying breath! Oh yeah!!
Jealous of YOU?! J E A L O U S of Y O U, wow. That one is the best yet, really. I can't believe you actually wrote that, I laughed loud enough to get all 3 dogs running to me. Yeah, you do that - spread the gospel. Everyone knows that will feed their hungry kids, pay their long overdue rent, get them jobs, and keep their butts safe when that gun is pointed at them or that bomb is ready to blow their butts to your kingdom come. If you actually have to grasp at straws that weak ie jealousy on my part, you have lost all ability to reason and/or think. :confused1:
Mark 16:15-18
And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe, In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Now that one I can get down with - other than the preaching, the believing and baptizing (I WAS baptized, but NOT the way you say it HAS to be done, so I guess it probably doesn't count ;)), and the devils because they don't exist. Now, as for the rest? I do speak 2 languages (other than English) fluently, I happen to think snakes are very cool creatures, I don't drink alcohol, period, tend to stay away from drinking poisonous liquids, and I lay my hands on the sick every day. Covered there, check those off the list.
I'll say it again. You are all like a bunch of snapping mutts trying to tear down anybody who proclaims this precious Truth, or stands up to your verbal attacks on Christians. Contrary to your attempt to put a difference between Jcribb and I, we know the devices of the enemy to cause discord and disunity among Christians. You said the same things about Sherene and I. Get some new material.
No, I am NOT trying to "put a difference between you and jcribb". I am POINTING OUT the difference between you and jcribb. This isn't the grade school playground, Annella. I do not want your ball and I am not trying to get jcribb on my kickball team at recess. Yes, Sherene was also MUCH more mellow and MUCH less rude and I did point that out. As far as "getting new material"? Last time I checked (just a second ago) I was able to form my own thoughts and words without the aid of a book. I was, amazingly, also able to live in reality, unafraid of some unseen entity.
Well, I am off to work. Have my crystals and sage already packed up, to do the 'laying on of hands' to the sick and dying. See you all tomorrow, enjoy your evening.
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It's funny no matter what I say, my walk with God is being attacked. Your attack on my born again experience, ect. actually shows your bitterness and resentment towards God.....not me. I'm very strong so give me your worst. It just makes my resolve that much stronger for the Lord. Bring it on! LOL
I am NOT attacking your "walk with god", I could care less. You have every right to believe what you want just as I do. I am pointing out your never ending hypocrosy ie "I read the bible and 'know' god, so therefore I can say whatever I want - just as long as I give the credit to him." Well, I happen to believe in the Cookie Monster, follow all his words, so you can lay blame on MY rudeness to YOU at his feet. How does that sound? It allows me to be almost as superior as you are. The Cookie Monster has never threatened me with living in hell though, he just tells me I might not get first dibs on the double fudge brownies......
Jealous much? The best thing to do in these perilous times is spread the Gospel as far and wide as I possibly can. News flash: It's called the Great Commission in the Bible. I've just begun, I'm going to be spreading the Gospel till my dying breath! Oh yeah!!
Jealous of YOU?! J E A L O U S of Y O U, wow. That one is the best yet, really. I can't believe you actually wrote that, I laughed loud enough to get all 3 dogs running to me. Yeah, you do that - spread the gospel. Everyone knows that will feed their hungry kids, pay their long overdue rent, get them jobs, and keep their butts safe when that gun is pointed at them or that bomb is ready to blow their butts to your kingdom come. If you actually have to grasp at straws that weak ie jealousy on my part, you have lost all ability to reason and/or think. :confused1:
Mark 16:15-18
And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe, In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Now that one I can get down with - other than the preaching, the believing and baptizing (I WAS baptized, but NOT the way you say it HAS to be done, so I guess it probably doesn't count ;)), and the devils because they don't exist. Now, as for the rest? I do speak 2 languages (other than English) fluently, I happen to think snakes are very cool creatures, I don't drink alcohol, period, tend to stay away from drinking poisonous liquids, and I lay my hands on the sick every day. Covered there, check those off the list.
I'll say it again. You are all like a bunch of snapping mutts trying to tear down anybody who proclaims this precious Truth, or stands up to your verbal attacks on Christians. Contrary to your attempt to put a difference between Jcribb and I, we know the devices of the enemy to cause discord and disunity among Christians. You said the same things about Sherene and I. Get some new material.
No, I am NOT trying to "put a difference between you and jcribb". I am POINTING OUT the difference between you and jcribb. This isn't the grade school playground, Annella. I do not want your ball and I am not trying to get jcribb on my kickball team at recess. Yes, Sherene was also MUCH more mellow and MUCH less rude and I did point that out. As far as "getting new material"? Last time I checked (just a second ago) I was able to form my own thoughts and words without the aid of a book. I was, amazingly, also able to live in reality, unafraid of some unseen entity.
Well, I am off to work. Have my crystals and sage already packed up, to do the 'laying on of hands' to the sick and dying. See you all tomorrow, enjoy your evening.
Ya know....you took every one of my answers to you, and twisted them around to points that have no reference to what I posted at all. Something you do quite often. I'm going to leave this as it is, and let others read and make up their minds.
LOL You are hilarious! Sage and crystals? LOLOLOLOLOLOL
First you say you don't believe in God or the Bible, now you are saying you do? Which is it?. You don't believe in baptizing, or you do? Which is it? You are sounding double minded. You better believe in devils as they will be the companions of the unbelieving for all of eternity. Along with all the rapist, murderers, serial killers, etc. The cookie monster won't be there as he's fictional, the devil and his demons are not.
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Yikes. Missed a lot.
Pay no attention to the Scolding Police. That's what they do, they scold. You shouldn't have to censor yourself just because they don't get your higher level of thinking, or to spare their misplaced feelings.
lol nah it's fine-- granted I'm entitled to it, I shouldn't have F-bombed at some random naive user. My point was kind of vague to the n00bs.
...Though it was peculiar to see them spring at my one word rather than the christian witchcraft thrown at me...
Thanks, sflynt, lol You are one of the Mean Girls (+Falconer, of course;)) on here now too.
HA!
First you say you don't believe in God or the Bible, now you are saying you do? Which is it?. You don't believe in baptizing, or you do? Which is it? You are sounding double minded. You better believe in devils as they will be the companions of the unbelieving for all of eternity. Along with all the rapist, murderers, serial killers, etc. The cookie monster won't be there as he's fictional, the devil and his demons are not.
I'm pretty sure she was being sarcastic. All this talk of hell and stuff makes me want to reinstall Doom 3.
"Puppets aren't real, but DEVILS AND DEMONS ARE!"
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Wow so well I'm a newbie and I'm gonna say something positive about God... QON hi nice to meet you and thanks for the input in advance (according to the post - you'll have something to say :notworthy:)... Annella well I am a Christian who believes that my savior is Jesus Christ who died on the cross and rose again and that is ALL that will get you into Heaven (sorry angelhome.... but it sorta sounds like you think you can earn your way? - prepare?? we can't prepare because we are human and will never be perfect thus never deserve to go to heaven... ) I must apologize I have not read ALL the post in this forum (jordandog)... but I skimmed over enough to get the jist of things... and well... I missed the popcorn but that's okay because I prefer kettle corn... and I much enjoy a good debate... especially one that is about my Lord and Savior...
Annella (and anyone else who would like to participate) - I would like you to do an experiment for me... Find two-three people and have them describe a coin for you (I ususally use a quarter)... Let me know the results...
Jordandog - you sound very educated on the Bible and God but a non believer in the afterlife? Is that correct? or are you just stirring the pot to push buttons?
Marieelissa - back to your statement I don't believe in the Devil or Hell... So, do you believe in God, angels and Heaven?
I recently joined a Bible study where we are reading the book Radical by David Platt... I encourage any and all of you to read this book so we can discuss... it talks about American Christians forgetting how Jesus says we are to actually live... how we have manipulated the gospel to fit our cultural preferences... it is very interesting and I think could/would spark more debate and conversation...
Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.
Until tommorrow...
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You are the WORST person on here for abrasive, and verbal attacks.
Is that the pot calling the kettle black? My dear, I do believe it's tea time!
You are a BULLY!!! Plain and simple.
Not a bully. I just don't have a lot of tolerance for people who don't think.
I am completely stoic to your judgments of me, btw.
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Wow so well I'm a newbie and I'm gonna say something positive about God... QON hi nice to meet you and thanks for the input in advance (according to the post - you'll have something to say :notworthy:)... Annella well I am a Christian who believes that my savior is Jesus Christ who died on the cross and rose again and that is ALL that will get you into Heaven (sorry angelhome.... but it sorta sounds like you think you can earn your way? - prepare?? we can't prepare because we are human and will never be perfect thus never deserve to go to heaven... ) I must apologize I have not read ALL the post in this forum (jordandog)... but I skimmed over enough to get the jist of things... and well... I missed the popcorn but that's okay because I prefer kettle corn... and I much enjoy a good debate... especially one that is about my Lord and Savior...
Annella (and anyone else who would like to participate) - I would like you to do an experiment for me... Find two-three people and have them describe a coin for you (I ususally use a quarter)... Let me know the results...
Jordandog - you sound very educated on the Bible and God but a non believer in the afterlife? Is that correct? or are you just stirring the pot to push buttons?
Marieelissa - back to your statement I don't believe in the Devil or Hell... So, do you believe in God, angels and Heaven?
I recently joined a Bible study where we are reading the book Radical by David Platt... I encourage any and all of you to read this book so we can discuss... it talks about American Christians forgetting how Jesus says we are to actually live... how we have manipulated the gospel to fit our cultural preferences... it is very interesting and I think could/would spark more debate and conversation...
Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.
Until tommorrow...
Marvia, first of all a warm welcome to FC! It's a great site to earn cash, try new things, and get to know people in the forum! It's great to have you join in this thread. It will be interesting to hear what you add in here! It's always wonderful to meet another new forum friend and a blessing to meet another Christian!! "See" you soon! Have a great day! :D
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You are the WORST person on here for abrasive, and verbal attacks.
Is that the pot calling the kettle black? My dear, I do believe it's tea time!
You are a BULLY!!! Plain and simple.
Not a bully. I just don't have a lot of tolerance for people who don't think.
I am completely stoic to your judgments of me, btw.
Stoic? I really don't feel that word applies to you, qo9.
sto·ic [ stṓ ik ]
noun (plural sto·ics)
Definition:
somebody impassive: somebody who is unemotional, especially somebody who shows patience and endurance during adversity
adjective
Definition:
patient and uncomplaining: showing admirable patience and endurance in the face of adversity without complaining or getting upset
[Late 16th century. <Stoic]
sto·i·cal·ly adverb
Word Key: Synonyms
See impassive.
(Courtesy of Dell encarta)
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::) What's with this trend of pasting dictionary definitions, jcribb? I wouldn't use a word if I didn't know what it meant, thanks. My original statement stands.
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Well, OK. Guess you will know for sure, when you die. If you don't believe in evil
Satan (The Devil) then you don't believe that the Holy Bible is the Word of God, and IF you don't believe that then you don't believe in God.
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::) What's with this trend of pasting dictionary definitions, jcribb? I wouldn't use a word if I didn't know what it meant, thanks. My original statement stands.
So does my rebuttal.
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So does my rebuttal.
Well your rebuttal fails because I did not saying I was stoic in general.
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So does my rebuttal.
Well your rebuttal fails because I did not saying I was stoic in general.
Yes, you are right in that. I am saying you are not being stoic in your reactions to Annella (which is what you indicated), or anyone who contradicts you in this type of thread.
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So does my rebuttal.
Well your rebuttal fails because I did not saying I was stoic in general.
Yes, you are right in that. I am saying you are not being stoic in your reactions to Annella (which is what you indicated), or anyone who contradicts you in this type of thread.
:thumbsup:
This shows a classic side to your character qon.....keep on arguing with a school teacher.
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Never doubt God - that is what Lucifer wants you to do.
God created balance in the universe
Good and Evil
Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge
The Dove and The Snake
God shall sleep a thousand of HIS YEARS to allow Lucifer to reign over man to prove to Lucifer that at least one shall keep faith in God and if so, then God shall smit Lucifer, if not then mankind shall be forever ruled by Hell
The last day of Lucifer's reign will be when the last of the 144 thousand has entered Heaven.
Remember when Lucifer fell from Grace one third of Heaven followed - that makes for a lot of bad from the get-go
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So does my rebuttal.
Well your rebuttal fails because I did not saying I was stoic in general.
I know you didn't; I'm referring to you thinking you are stoic to Annella's comments. I've already clarified this to you once.
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So does my rebuttal.
Well your rebuttal fails because I did not saying I was stoic in general.
Yes, you are right in that. I am saying you are not being stoic in your reactions to Annella (which is what you indicated), or anyone who contradicts you in this type of thread.
:thumbsup:
This shows a classic side to your character qon.....keep on arguing with a school teacher.
Annella: Yes, I'm starting to feel I'm in the middle of the "Who's on third?" scenario! I can't seem to get through to her that she was not being "stoic" to your remarks. She may be to some people in other type threads, but she cannot be stoic in these religious threads with her sarcastic remarks. That is not stoic and is exactly what I am commenting to her on.
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So does my rebuttal.
Well your rebuttal fails because I did not saying I was stoic in general.
Yes, you are right in that. I am saying you are not being stoic in your reactions to Annella (which is what you indicated), or anyone who contradicts you in this type of thread.
:thumbsup:
This shows a classic side to your character qon.....keep on arguing with a school teacher.
Annella: Yes, I'm starting to feel I'm in the middle of the "Who's on third?" scenario! I can't seem to get through to her that she was not being "stoic" to your remarks. She may be to some people in other type threads, but she cannot be stoic in these religious threads with her sarcastic remarks. That is not stoic and is exactly what I am commenting to her on.
Who's on third? LOL Good one!
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Wow so well I'm a newbie and I'm gonna say something positive about God... QON hi nice to meet you and thanks for the input in advance (according to the post - you'll have something to say :notworthy:)... Annella well I am a Christian who believes that my savior is Jesus Christ who died on the cross and rose again and that is ALL that will get you into Heaven (sorry angelhome.... but it sorta sounds like you think you can earn your way? - prepare?? we can't prepare because we are human and will never be perfect thus never deserve to go to heaven... ) I must apologize I have not read ALL the post in this forum (jordandog)... but I skimmed over enough to get the jist of things... and well... I missed the popcorn but that's okay because I prefer kettle corn... and I much enjoy a good debate... especially one that is about my Lord and Savior...
Annella (and anyone else who would like to participate) - I would like you to do an experiment for me... Find two-three people and have them describe a coin for you (I ususally use a quarter)... Let me know the results...
Jordandog - you sound very educated on the Bible and God but a non believer in the afterlife? Is that correct? or are you just stirring the pot to push buttons?
Marieelissa - back to your statement I don't believe in the Devil or Hell... So, do you believe in God, angels and Heaven?
I recently joined a Bible study where we are reading the book Radical by David Platt... I encourage any and all of you to read this book so we can discuss... it talks about American Christians forgetting how Jesus says we are to actually live... how we have manipulated the gospel to fit our cultural preferences... it is very interesting and I think could/would spark more debate and conversation...
Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.
Until tommorrow...
Marvia, first of all a warm welcome to FC! It's a great site to earn cash, try new things, and get to know people in the forum! It's great to have you join in this thread. It will be interesting to hear what you add in here! It's always wonderful to meet another new forum friend and a blessing to meet another Christian!! "See" you soon! Have a great day! :D
Thanks Jcribb for the warm welcome... I have been trying new things... seems that since my kids are grown and already out on their own I don't qualify for most of the survey... oh well...
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Never doubt God - that is what Lucifer wants you to do.
God created balance in the universe
Good and Evil
Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge
The Dove and The Snake
God shall sleep a thousand of HIS YEARS to allow Lucifer to reign over man to prove to Lucifer that at least one shall keep faith in God and if so, then God shall smit Lucifer, if not then mankind shall be forever ruled by Hell
The last day of Lucifer's reign will be when the last of the 144 thousand has entered Heaven.
Remember when Lucifer fell from Grace one third of Heaven followed - that makes for a lot of bad from the get-go
So are you a Jehovah's Witness?
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Never doubt God - that is what Lucifer wants you to do.
God created balance in the universe
Good and Evil
Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge
The Dove and The Snake
God shall sleep a thousand of HIS YEARS to allow Lucifer to reign over man to prove to Lucifer that at least one shall keep faith in God and if so, then God shall smit Lucifer, if not then mankind shall be forever ruled by Hell
The last day of Lucifer's reign will be when the last of the 144 thousand has entered Heaven.
Remember when Lucifer fell from Grace one third of Heaven followed - that makes for a lot of bad from the get-go
So are you a Jehovah's Witness?
:angel12:
I am not Jehovah Witness, but many have asked me this. I wonder if it is because they study the bible more in depth then other religiins or jsut because other religions speak so little of the 144 thousand?
[from King james}
Twice in this book, mention is made of a group consisting of 144,000. In chapter 7:1ff John heard of 144,000 (12,000 each from twelve different Israelite tribes) servants of God who had been sealed on their foreheads. They were thus obviously redeemed people. Also, the apostle saw a “great multitude, which no man can number” out of every nation. These too were redeemed individuals who had been made white in the Lamb’s blood (v. 14). They had victoriously triumphed over tribulation, and they served God continuously in his temple. Some feel that these two groups are really the same people —just from different angles.
Again, in Revelation 14:1ff, John saw the Lamb on Mount Zion. With him were 144,000, sealed with the Father’s name upon their foreheads. This great multitude had been “purchased out of the earth,” and they were said to be the “firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.”
{end from king james]
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Thanks, sflynt, lol You are one of the Mean Girls (+Falconer, of course;)) on here now too. I caught that when I was reading through lots of posts after being out of the Forum for weeks.
QON, what a good summation of what I was saying about the "reading into of posts" and "focusing on one minute, derogatory thing" = misplaced feelings. I was stating that only as far as Annella and my posts to each other though since I seem to be able to pretty much get along with everyone else, strange eh? ;)
lol mean girls.. thats funny! ;)
Why is everyone off on definitions and telling people that they DO NOT get along with everyone else? Really? Are we in kindergarten? Jcribb, I think we all need time outs.. what do you think? lol ;) I'm only teasing. (since you're a teacher, right?)
(Please(everyone) don't take offense to this and try to find some hidden meaning or message in my post. There is no hidden meaning.)
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Never doubt God - that is what Lucifer wants you to do.
God created balance in the universe
Good and Evil
Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge
The Dove and The Snake
God shall sleep a thousand of HIS YEARS to allow Lucifer to reign over man to prove to Lucifer that at least one shall keep faith in God and if so, then God shall smit Lucifer, if not then mankind shall be forever ruled by Hell
The last day of Lucifer's reign will be when the last of the 144 thousand has entered Heaven.
Remember when Lucifer fell from Grace one third of Heaven followed - that makes for a lot of bad from the get-go
If we never doubt god, how do we ever learn/grow? I've found that by taking myself out of the whole religous thing and looking at everything from a nonbiased perspective, I can see things so much clearer. I have so much room to grow and learn. I can see things completely differently than I did before. I can actually see both sides now.
When all the religion did was cloud my mind. Made me get all defensive when someone disagreed with me, when the only reason I got so defensive was because in the back of my mind I knew they were right.
also, it Made me feel guilty for being.... natural. Does that make sense?
I don't agree that god created balance in the universe. (even if I believed in god, I wouldn't agree to that.)
Also your last statement about when lucifer fell from grace, 1/3rd of heaven followed... yeah, that just proves my point that the bad people get to heaven then, when saved of course. (rapists, murderers, molesters/and the like) Why would anyone want to be apart of that?
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Right, Sfylnt is a mean girl.
Funny, honestly, I haven't ran into anyone on here that's actually mean. Some people maybe very objected and very hard nosed, but I wouldn't call anyone on here actually mean.
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Right, Sfylnt is a mean girl.
Funny, honestly, I haven't ran into anyone on here that's actually mean. Some people maybe very objected and very hard nosed, but I wouldn't call anyone on here actually mean.
LOL! I agree, I don't think anyone on here is mean either.
Its just how you read the posts. You really can't tell how the person would be saying it, so it can be taken out of context, if you're reading the post with an.. attitude per say..
Can't we all just get along!?! lol
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Never doubt God - that is what Lucifer wants you to do.
God created balance in the universe
Good and Evil
Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge
The Dove and The Snake
God shall sleep a thousand of HIS YEARS to allow Lucifer to reign over man to prove to Lucifer that at least one shall keep faith in God and if so, then God shall smit Lucifer, if not then mankind shall be forever ruled by Hell
The last day of Lucifer's reign will be when the last of the 144 thousand has entered Heaven.
Remember when Lucifer fell from Grace one third of Heaven followed - that makes for a lot of bad from the get-go
If we never doubt god, how do we ever learn/grow? I've found that by taking myself out of the whole religous thing and looking at everything from a nonbiased perspective, I can see things so much clearer. I have so much room to grow and learn. I can see things completely differently than I did before. I can actually see both sides now.
When all the religion did was cloud my mind. Made me get all defensive when someone disagreed with me, when the only reason I got so defensive was because in the back of my mind I knew they were right.
also, it Made me feel guilty for being.... natural. Does that make sense?
I don't agree that god created balance in the universe. (even if I believed in god, I wouldn't agree to that.)
Also your last statement about when lucifer fell from grace, 1/3rd of heaven followed... yeah, that just proves my point that the bad people get to heaven then, when saved of course. (rapists, murderers, molesters/and the like) Why would anyone want to be apart of that?
I agree with most of your other post... I do think that when you type it the expression (thus meaning) may not be how it is taken...
but I don't agree with everything in this post... the 1/3rd that followed where never human... they where angels who decided to follow Lucifer... although you are correct in stating that rapist, murderers, molesters/and the like can go to Heaven... but only if they sincerely believe in Jesus death and resurrection for their sins... While I don't understand it or agree with it... it is not for me to decide... That is where faith comes in... I let God make those kinds of decisions... I try to think of as worrying about my own biz...
You point of doubting God... while understandable... I have had times that I questioned or didn't understand why?? but that is the devil trying to come between God and you because the only person who can separate you from God is you... So, the devil just keeps nagging at you until you walk away from God and then the Devil wins... and 1st off I don't trust that man... 2nd off I don't want to live my life without God... and I dang sure don't want to live in Hell for eternity...
To be natural is human and we will always be human... NO ONE will ever be perfect... The thing is in God's eyes all our sins are equal... yea that is crazy... to think that my smoking is equal to a child molester... but it is so in God's eyes... While I don't have all the answers (only God does) I can say that he has always been there for me... like no other... I put my trust and faith in him... I seek him with all my heart and beg him to keep me from leaving his way... Yea I feel guilty when I do stay from his commands, but I know that is the Holy Spirit... sorta like when you parents scolded you for breaking the rules... Did they love you any less? Did they put you out? I know I know... some people did have parents that put them out... but for the majority it is a good anology of the kind of Love God has for his children... Like I said I don't have all the answers... but I do know that turning my back on God because of some guilt over something I did wrong is not an option for me personally...
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Never doubt God - that is what Lucifer wants you to do.
God created balance in the universe
Good and Evil
Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge
The Dove and The Snake
God shall sleep a thousand of HIS YEARS to allow Lucifer to reign over man to prove to Lucifer that at least one shall keep faith in God and if so, then God shall smit Lucifer, if not then mankind shall be forever ruled by Hell
The last day of Lucifer's reign will be when the last of the 144 thousand has entered Heaven.
Remember when Lucifer fell from Grace one third of Heaven followed - that makes for a lot of bad from the get-go
If we never doubt god, how do we ever learn/grow? I've found that by taking myself out of the whole religous thing and looking at everything from a nonbiased perspective, I can see things so much clearer. I have so much room to grow and learn. I can see things completely differently than I did before. I can actually see both sides now.
When all the religion did was cloud my mind. Made me get all defensive when someone disagreed with me, when the only reason I got so defensive was because in the back of my mind I knew they were right.
also, it Made me feel guilty for being.... natural. Does that make sense?
I don't agree that god created balance in the universe. (even if I believed in god, I wouldn't agree to that.)
Also your last statement about when lucifer fell from grace, 1/3rd of heaven followed... yeah, that just proves my point that the bad people get to heaven then, when saved of course. (rapists, murderers, molesters/and the like) Why would anyone want to be apart of that?
I agree with most of your other post... I do think that when you type it the expression (thus meaning) may not be how it is taken...
but I don't agree with everything in this post... the 1/3rd that followed where never human... they where angels who decided to follow Lucifer... although you are correct in stating that rapist, murderers, molesters/and the like can go to Heaven... but only if they sincerely believe in Jesus death and resurrection for their sins... While I don't understand it or agree with it... it is not for me to decide... That is where faith comes in... I let God make those kinds of decisions... I try to think of as worrying about my own biz...
You point of doubting God... while understandable... I have had times that I questioned or didn't understand why?? but that is the devil trying to come between God and you because the only person who can separate you from God is you... So, the devil just keeps nagging at you until you walk away from God and then the Devil wins... and 1st off I don't trust that man... 2nd off I don't want to live my life without God... and I dang sure don't want to live in Hell for eternity...
To be natural is human and we will always be human... NO ONE will ever be perfect... The thing is in God's eyes all our sins are equal... yea that is crazy... to think that my smoking is equal to a child molester... but it is so in God's eyes... While I don't have all the answers (only God does) I can say that he has always been there for me... like no other... I put my trust and faith in him... I seek him with all my heart and beg him to keep me from leaving his way... Yea I feel guilty when I do stay from his commands, but I know that is the Holy Spirit... sorta like when you parents scolded you for breaking the rules... Did they love you any less? Did they put you out? I know I know... some people did have parents that put them out... but for the majority it is a good anology of the kind of Love God has for his children... Like I said I don't have all the answers... but I do know that turning my back on God because of some guilt over something I did wrong is not an option for me personally...
All is the right of freewill. To think as we feel born from the influence around us. Just as the Angels fell from grace after Jacob Ladder closed and Lucifer tempted them. They had tasted humankind and wanted to be of flesh and that is what Lucifer offered, but it was not his to give and so they fell to the pit with him and never walked the fields of grass again.
Then again, it is all in what we feel. And in this age of man we will be angry because most live with sin and to Love God would be calling the kettle black or tear at our sanity knowing we should not smoke or we should not lie, cheat, and all those other awful things.
I do not believe a rapist or murderer will be saved if his only reason for repentance is to be saved and not because he believes in God's grace and has it in the soul.
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Never doubt God - that is what Lucifer wants you to do.
God created balance in the universe
Good and Evil
Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge
The Dove and The Snake
God shall sleep a thousand of HIS YEARS to allow Lucifer to reign over man to prove to Lucifer that at least one shall keep faith in God and if so, then God shall smit Lucifer, if not then mankind shall be forever ruled by Hell
The last day of Lucifer's reign will be when the last of the 144 thousand has entered Heaven.
Remember when Lucifer fell from Grace one third of Heaven followed - that makes for a lot of bad from the get-go
So are you a Jehovah's Witness?
:angel12:
I am not Jehovah Witness, but many have asked me this. I wonder if it is because they study the bible more in depth then other religiins or jsut because other religions speak so little of the 144 thousand?
[from King james}
Twice in this book, mention is made of a group consisting of 144,000. In chapter 7:1ff John heard of 144,000 (12,000 each from twelve different Israelite tribes) servants of God who had been sealed on their foreheads. They were thus obviously redeemed people. Also, the apostle saw a “great multitude, which no man can number” out of every nation. These too were redeemed individuals who had been made white in the Lamb’s blood (v. 14). They had victoriously triumphed over tribulation, and they served God continuously in his temple. Some feel that these two groups are really the same people —just from different angles.
Again, in Revelation 14:1ff, John saw the Lamb on Mount Zion. With him were 144,000, sealed with the Father’s name upon their foreheads. This great multitude had been “purchased out of the earth,” and they were said to be the “firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.”
{end from king james]
Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...
I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev... Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now? I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...
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Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...
I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev... Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now? I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...
Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists. People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them. They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever. It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.
It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess. Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000. Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.
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Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...
I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev... Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now? I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...
Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists. People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them. They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever. It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.
It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess. Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000. Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.
The 144,000 are Jews, as mstachitus says. If you keep reading in the same chapter, it tells of a multitude which no man can number. They who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. That is the redeemed (saved).
I haven't forgotten our other discussion mstachistus, I've been in and out today, but think I will have some time tomorrow. From what I read, there is very little I interpret differently than you do. We seem to agree on a lot.
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Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...
I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev... Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now? I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...
Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists. People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them. They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever. It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.
It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess. Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000. Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.
The 144,000 are Jews, as mstachitus says. If you keep reading in the same chapter, it tells of a multitude which no man can number. They who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. That is the redeemed (saved).
I haven't forgotten our other discussion mstachistus, I've been in and out today, but think I will have some time tomorrow. From what I read, there is very little I interpret differently than you do. We seem to agree on a lot.
My understanding is the 144-thousand go to Heaven, Governed under King Jesus, to rule over the earth where the holy ones shall be resurrected to live in peace without war, without hunger. A world of no Freewill. Almost sounds like it is not worth living. But with our minds wiped of all we know and born fresh, we won’t care because we can’t miss what we never have or know of.
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Never doubt God - that is what Lucifer wants you to do.
God created balance in the universe
Good and Evil
Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge
The Dove and The Snake
God shall sleep a thousand of HIS YEARS to allow Lucifer to reign over man to prove to Lucifer that at least one shall keep faith in God and if so, then God shall smit Lucifer, if not then mankind shall be forever ruled by Hell
The last day of Lucifer's reign will be when the last of the 144 thousand has entered Heaven.
Remember when Lucifer fell from Grace one third of Heaven followed - that makes for a lot of bad from the get-go
If we never doubt god, how do we ever learn/grow? I've found that by taking myself out of the whole religous thing and looking at everything from a nonbiased perspective, I can see things so much clearer. I have so much room to grow and learn. I can see things completely differently than I did before. I can actually see both sides now.
When all the religion did was cloud my mind. Made me get all defensive when someone disagreed with me, when the only reason I got so defensive was because in the back of my mind I knew they were right.
also, it Made me feel guilty for being.... natural. Does that make sense?
I don't agree that god created balance in the universe. (even if I believed in god, I wouldn't agree to that.)
Also your last statement about when lucifer fell from grace, 1/3rd of heaven followed... yeah, that just proves my point that the bad people get to heaven then, when saved of course. (rapists, murderers, molesters/and the like) Why would anyone want to be apart of that?
I agree with most of your other post... I do think that when you type it the expression (thus meaning) may not be how it is taken...
but I don't agree with everything in this post... the 1/3rd that followed where never human... they where angels who decided to follow Lucifer... although you are correct in stating that rapist, murderers, molesters/and the like can go to Heaven... but only if they sincerely believe in Jesus death and resurrection for their sins... While I don't understand it or agree with it... it is not for me to decide... That is where faith comes in... I let God make those kinds of decisions... I try to think of as worrying about my own biz...
You point of doubting God... while understandable... I have had times that I questioned or didn't understand why?? but that is the devil trying to come between God and you because the only person who can separate you from God is you... So, the devil just keeps nagging at you until you walk away from God and then the Devil wins... and 1st off I don't trust that man... 2nd off I don't want to live my life without God... and I dang sure don't want to live in Hell for eternity...
To be natural is human and we will always be human... NO ONE will ever be perfect... The thing is in God's eyes all our sins are equal... yea that is crazy... to think that my smoking is equal to a child molester... but it is so in God's eyes... While I don't have all the answers (only God does) I can say that he has always been there for me... like no other... I put my trust and faith in him... I seek him with all my heart and beg him to keep me from leaving his way... Yea I feel guilty when I do stay from his commands, but I know that is the Holy Spirit... sorta like when you parents scolded you for breaking the rules... Did they love you any less? Did they put you out? I know I know... some people did have parents that put them out... but for the majority it is a good anology of the kind of Love God has for his children... Like I said I don't have all the answers... but I do know that turning my back on God because of some guilt over something I did wrong is not an option for me personally...
Thank you for responding. :)
I was always afraid of going to hell too. Then realized that was the only reason I fell into believing it. Because I was a little kid that didn't know any better and when told that I'd burn in hell for not following their beliefs, I was like, "okay! I don't want to burn in hell." I just can't for the life of me believe that smoking is considered the same as murdering. (in god's eyes or my eyes) That doesnt make sense to me. or as you stated above, "Yea that is crazy." Why wouldn't people question it? Even you think its crazy. Can you really blame non-believers for thinking its crazy?
Even though that 1/3rd wasn't human, doesn't change the fact that evil is/can get into heaven. I still keep an open mind though. Because I believe that anything is possible. Their very well could be a god... and I'm still trying to find my path. I also don't see how he's always been there for you/me/or anyone else. How is he there? If god loved us so much why would he let so many innocent wonderful people suffer? Sorry, I have lots of questions...
...but I have to get back to work for now...
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Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...
I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev... Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now? I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...
Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists. People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them. They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever. It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.
It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess. Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000. Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.
I don't like that people always think the JW's make the final judgment, in the end God will judge people through his holy anointed(Jesus) with Jesus co-rulers(the 144K born again) to judge the twelve tribes of Israel(all mankind)(Matthew 19:27-29). This doesn't happen until the thousand year reign, not now it's true the JW's know they are teaching bible truths but to say they have the authority to judge who gets saved before the 1,000 year reign is slander at best.
For all those that think the 144K(who will rule as kings with Christ for 1,000 years) are all Hebrews or Israelites, then please explain how they are from every tribe, tongue, people and nation(Revelation 5:9-10)
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Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...
I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev... Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now? I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...
Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists. People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them. They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever. It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.
It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess. Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000. Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.
I don't like that people always think the JW's make the final judgment, in the end God will judge people through his holy anointed(Jesus) with Jesus co-rulers(the 144K born again) to judge the twelve tribes of Israel(all mankind)(Matthew 19:27-29). This doesn't happen until the thousand year reign, not now it's true the JW's know they are teaching bible truths but to say they have the authority to judge who gets saved before the 1,000 year reign is slander at best.
For all those that think the 144K(who will rule as kings with Christ for 1,000 years) are all Hebrews or Israelites, then please explain how they are from every tribe, tongue, people and nation(Revelation 5:9-10)
You and I have been over this on another thread with scripture and such, so you know we disagree. I will not get into it a second time with you. Someone else may want to challenge you though. The ones from every tribe, tongue, and nation are the multitude without number in Revelations Chapter 7 (the redeemed of the earth). During the 1,000 years of peace, they (us that are saved), will rule and reign with him on earth.
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Yes I'm sure many have... probably bc JW base the bulk of their religious beliefs on the book of Revelation... so when someone quotes those type of doctrines it is the first thing that comes to mind... I have always struggled with understanding the book of Revelation... and I much prefer the NIV over King James... all the thee and thous... although sometimes I do look stuff up in King James... to get clarification...
I always thought the 144 are the ones that either rise at the first Resurrection (Rev 21) or at the 2nd (I don't really remember why I thought the 2nd resurrection - but I did)... again... I don't really get Rev... Sorta like in Rev 20:5&6 when the dead don't rise at the first Resurrection... so it makes me wonder... when a Christian dies now does he go to Heaven now? I mean if the dead don't rise to heaven until the 2nd Resurrection??? but like I said Rev is a very complex book that I just don't really understand... I sorta figure - God gets it and maybe one day if he sees fit I'll get it too...
Yeah I'm not sure why the whole '144,000 people in heaven' theory exists. People talk about that number a lot, but they don't think about how Revelations describes them. They are specifically out of the House of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. People claim to be a part of this group, but I'm sure many who claim have no connection with Israel whatsoever. It never states in the Bible that only 144,000 people will get into heaven, but people choose to interpret it this way.
It's tough for churches that teach this, once they get more than 144,000 members, because then suddenly they have to change their doctrine to include the excess. Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinating a belief in new world of paradise that will be like heaven, but not quite, where people will live who are JWs, but not part of the elect 144,000. Interesting that these types of doctrines never pop up until after their membership starts asking questions.
I don't like that people always think the JW's make the final judgment, in the end God will judge people through his holy anointed(Jesus) with Jesus co-rulers(the 144K born again) to judge the twelve tribes of Israel(all mankind)(Matthew 19:27-29). This doesn't happen until the thousand year reign, not now it's true the JW's know they are teaching bible truths but to say they have the authority to judge who gets saved before the 1,000 year reign is slander at best.
For all those that think the 144K(who will rule as kings with Christ for 1,000 years) are all Hebrews or Israelites, then please explain how they are from every tribe, tongue, people and nation(Revelation 5:9-10)
You and I have been over this on another thread with scripture and such, so you know we disagree. I will not get into it a second time with you. Someone else may want to challenge you though. The ones from every tribe, tongue, and nation are the multitude without number in Revelations Chapter 7 (the redeemed of the earth). During the 1,000 years of peace, they (us that are saved), will rule and reign with him on earth.
Annela please go to my trinity thread i'm far more passive there, in fact I don't debate at all or insinuate anything in that thread. Annela in order for me to believe that I need to see where in Revelation is the multitude singing or to rule with Christ, praises are not singing many in ancient Israel praised God without singing. people this is not me inferring the bible says the 144K(that is the born again get their reward FIRST and corule with Christ for 1,000 years)
Revelation 20:5-6 Reads 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
How is it that the dead didn't get life until the thousand year reign ended? If you look at the context of these two verses the co rulers get immortality before the ones in the second resurrection(that is the multitude in Revelation 7 also in Revelation 7 the 144K are sealed before the great crowd are mentioned meaning they got their reward first). Also cross reference the above verse with 1 Corinthians 15:23 and Revelation 14:1-4 to see that the 144K are also the firstfruits.
Another question is how are BILLIONS of people going to judge each other? That's one of the few things the bible mentions about heavenly duties remember the born again go to heaven before they use their authority!!!!! 1 Corinthians 6:1-3
@Annela: You don't have to feel compelled or forced to post every other day to my responses you can post every 2 to 3 weeks for all I care, and I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.
Teflonfanatic, I would first like to say that some of your posts are confusing in the way you jump back and forth with different ideas, Scripture, and answers. So, if I am responding to something here that is not in conjunction with what you really are meaning here, then please forgive me. I am responding to what I think you are talking about.
In Revelation 22:6 it says, "And he (one of the 7 angels, verse 9) said unto me (John, while in vision), 'These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.' " This is indicative of duties to be done.
Regarding awards: Jesus, Himself, says in Revelation 22:12, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Jesus also says in Matthew 5:12 (for people who are persecuted and reviled, vs. 10,11), "Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." I Corinthians 3:8,9 says, "Now he that planteth and he that wateresth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."
There is more, but I just want to be sure I'm on the same wavelength as you are.
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Teflonfanatic, this is a public forum, and I can post whenever I like. I most certainly disagree with how you interpret scripture. That's why you do not want me to post. While you like to stay in prophecy a lot, it really is not a "Salvational" issue. You have the teachings of the JW that you are pushing on people, and that's confusing. God is not the author of confusion.
While I understand the 1,000 year reign of peace, that is NOT the new heaven and new earth. There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace). The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time.
As far as the righteous judgement where the redeemed will receive their rewards is "The Judgement Seat of Christ" (not the great White Throne Judgement). This takes place after the rapture, and combined with the Marriage supper of the Lamb. Remember that some dead in Christ rise from the grave during the rapture. The dead in Christ shall rise FIRST, and then us who are remaining shall rise also together with them to ever be with the Lord. That is the First resurrection.
You have a lot of time periods and dispensations running all together during one dispensation. However, prophecy is interpreted through many time dispensations. While some scriptures have past, present, and future happenings in them, it does not mean that they are happening all at once. God does not live in a time boundary as we do. He is eternal. According to Him, we are already raptured, and praising Him around the Throne, among other things. His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways.
The redeemed in the first resurrection (in the grave or alive) will reign with Christ during the 1,000 years of peace. They most certainlydo have duties and rewards given to them. What I have noticed is you say nothing of the rapture. Do you believe in such?
Your hostility towards me is unfounded. Only because I questioned your interpretation of Holy Scriptures? Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is. You pick and choose a lot of scriptures and throw them out, but they have little or nothing to do with the subject or the dispensation being addressed. Also, like I said before, prophecy (Revelations) is not the easiest to interpret. However, scripture will interpret scripture, and you need the Holy Ghost to reveal certain portions of scripture through study. I mentioned my Salvational born again experience according to scripture, but you have chosen to ignore that as well, when it is all together Biblical (Acts 2:38).
Annela please go to my trinity thread i'm far more passive there, in fact I don't debate at all or insinuate anything in that thread. Annela in order for me to believe that I need to see where in Revelation is the multitude singing or to rule with Christ, praises are not singing many in ancient Israel praised God without singing. people this is not me inferring the bible says the 144K(that is the born again get their reward FIRST and corule with Christ for 1,000 years)
WHAT? Ancient Israel didn't praise God with singing? You need to go back and read the Old Testament. The singers and musicians were appointed to do just that in the temple in the wilderness. Even before that! The singers and musicians a lot of times went before the Ark with singing and praising God.
I Chornicles 15:27-29
Exodus 15-1, 15:20-21
There are about 50 more scriptures relating to ancient Israel singing and playing music unto the Lord! King David was a Psalmist (a writer/singer of songs to glorify God). What Bible are you reading?
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If you don't believe in the devil or hell, then please don't ever die :-[
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What Bible are you reading?
It's always funny to see two of the flock arguing over *their* interpretation of stories from The Brothers Grimm.
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What Bible are you reading?
It's always funny to see two of the flock arguing over *their* interpretation of stories from The Brothers Grimm.
We are discussing Biblical interpretation pertaining to prophecy which is difficult to interpret at best......by any flock.
I find it funny for someone who doesn't even believe in the Bible, or God, to have anything to say about the discussion at all. Unless they are just mouthing off for no reason. However, if you have something to contribute to the discussion (Biblical of course), then by all means contribute. It's a debate and discussion thread and therefore up for such.
So.....I guess since you call the Bible the "Brother's Grimm", you actually have nothing to contribute, is that not correct? You are posting just to be sarcastic?
Typical..........
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I find it funny for someone who doesn't even believe in the Bible, or God, to have anything to say about the discussion at all. Unless they are just mouthing off for no reason.
A discussion of fiction is entertaining and educational to those who are aware of the fictitious qualities. Thus the "Brothers Grimm" comment I imagine. Differences aside, I am one that's actually enjoying the read here.
If you don't believe in the devil or hell, then please don't ever die
I have a magical serum for that.
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What Bible are you reading?
It's always funny to see two of the flock arguing over *their* interpretation of stories from The Brothers Grimm.
Poor attempt at humor...
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Poor attempt at humor...
You know jcribb, you did a huge logic fail in here awhile back, and I posted something calling you on it that could be described as "mean" because I was frustrated with your loose train of thought. But I deleted it before you could read it, realizing you would never see the err of your ways, anyway, and not wanting to ruin anyone's day over minds that will never change. But here you are, getting your scolds in every chance you get (this is just one of many examples). My opinion of you has progressively lowered the more you've mirrored Annella, a woman who has not deserved the continual defense you provide on her part. I have no desire to deal with two Annellas.
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Just got caught up on this thread and see, yet again, a perfect example of 'making a mountain out of a molehill' and making something say what the person reading it wants it to say, not what it DOES say.
teflonfanatic:
@Annela: You don't have to feel compelled or forced to post every other day to my responses you can post every 2 to 3 weeks for all I care, and I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.
You, Annella, come back with this:
Teflonfanatic, this is a public forum, and I can post whenever I like. I most certainly disagree with how you interpret scripture. That's why you do not want me to post.
What the heck? How many times have you stated you are busy, you have been over things with him before, etc.? I take what he said as telling you it's not necessary to reply to all he says when he says it, he is still going to post, and he also agreed WITH you on one point. That turns into, in your head, him telling you when you are 'allowed' to post and you go sooo far as to imply he "doesn't want you to post." It is impossible to reason with an unreasonable person, no matter what is said. Why the remark about it being "a public forum"? Where did he remotely try to 'restrict' you and your views? It seems you really are only able to get along with and be decent to the few that believe the same way you do - it is NOT just those of us who question and/or do not believe your bible and fear your devil.
Go ahead and call me out for 'picking' at you or a point, I don't care. That really ticked me off when I saw it. >:( If, as you say ad nauseam, "God is not the author of confusion", why is everyone but you confused trying to interpret the Bible? It has confused biblical scholars much smarter than you for many years - they just happen to admit it.
In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.
Nietzsche
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That's good to hear because the devil is evil and hell is not a place you want to go. :peace:
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Just got caught up on this thread and see, yet again, a perfect example of 'making a mountain out of a molehill' and making something say what the person reading it wants it to say, not what it DOES say.
teflonfanatic:
@Annela: You don't have to feel compelled or forced to post every other day to my responses you can post every 2 to 3 weeks for all I care, and I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.
You, Annella, come back with this:
Teflonfanatic, this is a public forum, and I can post whenever I like. I most certainly disagree with how you interpret scripture. That's why you do not want me to post.
What the heck? How many times have you stated you are busy, you have been over things with him before, etc.? I take what he said as telling you it's not necessary to reply to all he says when he says it, he is still going to post, and he also agreed WITH you on one point. That turns into, in your head, him telling you when you are 'allowed' to post and you go sooo far as to imply he "doesn't want you to post." It is impossible to reason with an unreasonable person, no matter what is said. Why the remark about it being "a public forum"? Where did he remotely try to 'restrict' you and your views? It seems you really are only able to get along with and be decent to the few that believe the same way you do - it is NOT just those of us who question and/or do not believe your bible and fear your devil.
Go ahead and call me out for 'picking' at you or a point, I don't care. That really ticked me off when I saw it. >:( If, as you say ad nauseam, "God is not the author of confusion",
In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.
Nietzsche
What I find funny is all 3 of you (falconer, qon, yourself) jumping on the band wagon when I wasn't even discussing anything with you. It's what you all like to do.
Oh, you got ticked off? What else is new. Since my posts are about the Bible and prophecy, and how it is interpreted by the JW's, I don't think any of you have a qualified post about it, since you all have denounced Christianity and it's teachings. By all means, jump in with your interpretations of what you think the Revelations mean, and the time dispensations addressed.
You wrote:
why is everyone but you confused trying to interpret the Bible? It has confused biblical scholars much smarter than you for many years - they just happen to admit it.
My quote to qon:
We are discussing Biblical interpretation pertaining to prophecy which is difficult to interpret at best......by any flock.
At least read what I post before accusing me of something I have admitted.
Get ticked all you want. Do I care? Nope.
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Poor attempt at humor...
You know jcribb, you did a huge logic fail in here awhile back, and I posted something calling you on it that could be described as "mean" because I was frustrated with your loose train of thought. But I deleted it before you could read it, realizing you would never see the err of your ways, anyway, and not wanting to ruin anyone's day over minds that will never change. But here you are, getting your scolds in every chance you get (this is just one of many examples). My opinion of you has progressively lowered the more you've mirrored Annella, a woman who has not deserved the continual defense you provide on her part. I have no desire to deal with two Annellas.
Like your opinion lowered or otherwise is of any consequence to anyone. As far as getting "scolds" in. Anyone can go back and read the last 3 pages of this thread and see who is scolding who, and who is just coming in here to stir the pot! What you like to do is back someone in the corner with your sarcastic verbal spewing and then your other 2 co horts can come in with their own attacks, and try to verbally take someone down. Guess what, in case you haven't already figured it out.....I stand!
That's what is really making you mad isn't it? That you can't brow beat me like you do others. You write about me quite a bit in posts to other people, but not to me......so.....here's your chance. One on One, just you and me qon. I'll let you go first....... Don't take your pot shots at me posting to someone else......here I am....You don't have to deal with 2 Annella's. I'm the original, so lets go.
You talk about Jcribb's error of her ways. Go look in the mirror!
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My thoughts on what Hell could be (second death.....lake of fire):
You will have a body that cannot be destroyed (burnt up), so you are at the point of death all the time in the fire. You don't burn up, but are continually being in the flux of dying, but don't die. Your memory is intact, and you can remember everything you did in your life that was contrary to God and His followers. Every thought, word, deed, regret, etc., can be recalled with perfect clarity. The chances you threw away to follow God are gone, and there is no end to your torment. You call out for mercy, but there is none, because the dispensation of Grace in your life is passed, and there is no going back. You have no clothing (naked). You are utterly forgotten.
Or Heaven:
The white robes go to the redeemed as their wedding garment. The saved have a body that cannot be destroyed also. Bodies that can take eternal happiness. They can dance, sing, and worship before God, for a hundred years, and never get tired. They can drink the water of life, and eat from the tree of life that will give them eternal life. No more sickness, tears, heartache, etc., for the former things are passed away. They will not know that so and so didn't make it because there is no sadness there. God will wipe all tears from their eyes but they will be tears of joy, not sorrow. There will be a new Heaven and new Earth at that time that has no night, or sea. It is eternal day, and eternal peace and happiness.
Everybody has a choice. Choose this day who you will serve.
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.
Teflonfanatic, I would first like to say that some of your posts are confusing in the way you jump back and forth with different ideas, Scripture, and answers. So, if I am responding to something here that is not in conjunction with what you really are meaning here, then please forgive me. I am responding to what I think you are talking about.
In Revelation 22:6 it says, "And he (one of the 7 angels, verse 9) said unto me (John, while in vision), 'These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.' " This is indicative of duties to be done.
Regarding awards: Jesus, Himself, says in Revelation 22:12, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Jesus also says in Matthew 5:12 (for people who are persecuted and reviled, vs. 10,11), "Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." I Corinthians 3:8,9 says, "Now he that planteth and he that wateresth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."
There is more, but I just want to be sure I'm on the same wavelength as you are.
I see it as Jesus giving them rewards or duties and since he is giving them it, it can be said the rewards and duties are heavenly, I admit I can be wrong, Matthew 5:12 however may be considered a wrested scripture for the JW's i'll ask around and look into it??!!! :o
@Annela: Your responses i'm responding to are in the order you said them.
1. "While you like to stay in prophecy a lot, it really is not a "Salvational" issue. You have the teachings of the JW that you are pushing on people, and that's confusing. God is not the author of confusion."
The majority of the drama which is vindication of God's sovereignty is in prophecy. You are right the Rev prophecies are not salvation issue but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discern it, at the same time i'm well aware of this verse believe it or not, "Do not all interpretations belong to God"(Genesis 40:8)
P.S. I know the context is about Joseph having a prophetic dream and only God can interpret it, still I think you can agree that all interpretations belong to God.
2. "While I understand the 1,000 year reign of peace, that is NOT the new heaven and new earth. There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace). The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time."
what I agree with will be in bold below and what I disagree with will be slashed out below!
1,000 year reign is not new heaven and new earth
There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace).
The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time."
Jesus reigns in heaven not earth, "he said his kingdom is no part of this world"(John 18:36), also since all good people go to heaven(you believe it even though we agree God chooses who's good or not) your going to have MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people judging each other(1 Corinthians 6:1-3).
I also believe that the ones who will be resurrected during Christs presence are some of the 144K who died before he came. So that's what believe the rapture is.
3. You have a lot of time periods and dispensations running all together during one dispensation. However, prophecy is interpreted through many time dispensations. While some scriptures have past, present, and future happenings in them, it does not mean that they are happening all at once. God does not live in a time boundary as we do. He is eternal. According to Him, we are already raptured, and praising Him around the Throne, among other things. His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways.
I never said it's happening all at once, the sealing although happening now is not completed, obviously the resurrection and the binding of satan and the 1,000 years hasn't happened yet and is definitely not happening now etc. We are already raptured? Let's just forget about then in fact why are you here instead of in heaven if your already raptured according to God ??? The Israelites back then and us today praise God in a place of worship but are we in literal heaven when we do that? A place that's made with hands and is of this creation? The greater tabernacle is not made with hands and of this creation(Hebrews 9:11)
4. The redeemed in the first resurrection (in the grave or alive) will reign with Christ during the 1,000 years of peace. They most certainlydo have duties and rewards given to them. What I have noticed is you say nothing of the rapture. Do you believe in such?
As I stated before I believe the resurrected on the first resurrection are the 144K that died before Christ came back. My point is the rewards and duties for those in the first resurrection are clearly heavenly, for the sake of clarity all the rewards and duties will be listed below starting from heavenly.
HEAVEN
1. Co-rule with Christ for 1,000 years(equal in authority)
2. Immortality
3. They become spirit creatures that are not flesh and bone just like Jesus
4. Live in heaven
EARTH
1. They are subject and is not spoken of as ruling with Jesus or judging people or angels etc.
2. They are some of the unrighteous resurrected during the second resurrection(Acts 24:15)
3. They are the ones building houses, having a land with occupy and working their hands to the full(Isaiah 65:20-25); Isaiah 66:1
4. They live on Earth
5. Your hostility towards me is unfounded. Only because I questioned your interpretation of Holy Scriptures? Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is. You pick and choose a lot of scriptures and throw them out, but they have little or nothing to do with the subject or the dispensation being addressed. Also, like I said before, prophecy (Revelations) is not the easiest to interpret. However, scripture will interpret scripture, and you need the Holy Ghost to reveal certain portions of scripture through study. I mentioned my Salvational born again experience according to scripture, but you have chosen to ignore that as well, when it is all together Biblical (Acts 2:38).
To be quite honest I don't see the hostility, I want you to question however it is frustrating when you try to explain something and it the person gets the explanation different or even backwards, this is probably my own downfall though, considering i'm terrible at communication.
The only way to interpret revelation is to use the bible from both parts to understand the visions and the symbols etc with study and God's spirit. All the scriptures I posted had to do with the born again ruling with Christ, resurrection and the multitude and that's what we have been talking about this whole time so what's the problem?
As for your being born again on a baptismal i'm not going to judge you on that, only God knows if your baptized with fire instead of water and possibly yourself. However many are baptized in the name of the father, son and holy spirit(Matthew 28:19). Again if being baptized means that they all good people go to heaven then there's the issue of millions if not billions judging each other (1 Corinthians 6:1-3).
6. WHAT? Ancient Israel didn't praise God with singing? You need to go back and read the Old Testament. The singers and musicians were appointed to do just that in the temple in the wilderness. Even before that! The singers and musicians a lot of times went before the Ark with singing and praising God.
Your right there was a select group of singers and musicians appointed to sing and play music, however other then the Exodus song I don't recall Israel as a whole playing instruments or singing, i'm humbly willing to admit i'm wrong though and it's nice to see you reading the old covenant it should be emphasized more, I also said MOST not ALL!!
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The majority of the drama which is vindication of God's sovereignty is in prophecy. You are right the Rev prophecies are not salvation issue but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discern it, at the same time i'm well aware of this verse believe it or not, "Do not all interpretations belong to God"(Genesis 40:8)
P.S. I know the context is about Joseph having a prophetic dream and only God can interpret it, still I think you can agree that all interpretations belong to God.
I don't like to teach prophecy unless someone has been given the Salvational message and they are saved. Prophecy does not save you, nor is needed for initial Salvation. My post above is only to say that I know how you JW's like to stay in prophecy more than Salvation, and that makes me wonder why? The great Commission is to take the Good News to the world of Salvation.
Joseph is not the only one who had a prophetic dream, Jacob did also, how about Daniel? Peter on the roof? Anyway, what does this have to do with what we are talking about? This kind of throwing a bunch of thoughts and scriptures out that clearly have nothing to do with the subject being discussed is nothing but filling up a page and says nothing.
2. "While I understand the 1,000 year reign of peace, that is NOT the new heaven and new earth. There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace). The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time."
what I agree with will be in bold below and what I disagree with will be slashed out below!
1,000 year reign is not new heaven and new earth
There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace).
The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time."
Jesus reigns in heaven not earth, "he said his kingdom is no part of this world"(John 18:36), also since all good people go to heaven(you believe it even though we agree God chooses who's good or not) your going to have MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people judging each other(1 Corinthians 6:1-3).
Here is a good example of picking scriptures at random and out of context like you have been doing all along. In John 18:36 Jesus is answering Pilate. Of course He is still on the earth, and this is before He was crucified. READ the verses BEFORE and AFTER this verse and you will get the correct meaning.
Why are you quoting I Corinthians 6:1-3? Paul is talking to the Corinthian church and admonishing them to not go to the legal system to sue or conduct a legal matter with his brother in the Lord. He mentions that we will someday judge angels after this life.
Why do you take scriptures at random and post them when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand? I've said this before, and will not discuss anything else with you unless you can properly stay at the topic at hand. Just because you can pick a scripture out here and there, doesn't mean it's pertinent to the subject. Or maybe you are just trying to fill up a lot of space to look like you know something. You cannot take a scripture out of context because it may have a word that relates to the subject. It could mean something totally different according to the context and Hebrew or Greek definitions of which it is being used.
I also believe that the ones who will be resurrected during Christs presence are some of the 144K who died before he came. So that's what believe the rapture is.
I know you do.....I do not.....difference of opinion and how we interpret the scriptures.
3. You have a lot of time periods and dispensations running all together during one dispensation. However, prophecy is interpreted through many time dispensations. While some scriptures have past, present, and future happenings in them, it does not mean that they are happening all at once. God does not live in a time boundary as we do. He is eternal. According to Him, we are already raptured, and praising Him around the Throne, among other things. His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways.
I never said it's happening all at once, the sealing although happening now is not completed, obviously the resurrection and the binding of satan and the 1,000 years hasn't happened yet and is definitely not happening now etc. We are already raptured? Let's just forget about then in fact why are you here instead of in heaven if your already raptured according to God ??? The Israelites back then and us today praise God in a place of worship but are we in literal heaven when we do that? A place that's made with hands and is of this creation? The greater tabernacle is not made with hands and of this creation(Hebrews 9:11)
Wow!! What?? Hebrews 9:11, is Paul again speaking about about the types and shadows of the Old Testament and how Christ has replaced the old ways of sacrifice, because he is the supreme sacrifice, and no more will there be the sacrifices of animals, etc. Please do not pick and choose scripture unless you can use it in it's proper context!! Christ is the tabernacle made without hands, the sacrifice Himself!!
4. The redeemed in the first resurrection (in the grave or alive) will reign with Christ during the 1,000 years of peace. They most certainlydo have duties and rewards given to them. What I have noticed is you say nothing of the rapture. Do you believe in such?
As I stated before I believe the resurrected on the first resurrection are the 144K that died before Christ came back. My point is the rewards and duties for those in the first resurrection are clearly heavenly, for the sake of clarity all the rewards and duties will be listed below starting from heavenly.
HEAVEN
1. Co-rule with Christ for 1,000 years(equal in authority)
2. Immortality
3. They become spirit creatures that are not flesh and bone just like Jesus
4. Live in heaven
EARTH
1. They are subject and is not spoken of as ruling with Jesus or judging people or angels etc.
2. They are some of the unrighteous resurrected during the second resurrection(Acts 24:15)
3. They are the ones building houses, having a land with occupy and working their hands to the full(Isaiah 65:20-25); Isaiah 66:1
4. They live on Earth
Huh?? this is answering my question above? See what I mean by a lot of posting that has nothing to do with what the questions was? However, the 144,000 is not the first resurrection. Just something we disagree on.
5. Your hostility towards me is unfounded. Only because I questioned your interpretation of Holy Scriptures? Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is. You pick and choose a lot of scriptures and throw them out, but they have little or nothing to do with the subject or the dispensation being addressed. Also, like I said before, prophecy (Revelations) is not the easiest to interpret. However, scripture will interpret scripture, and you need the Holy Ghost to reveal certain portions of scripture through study. I mentioned my Salvational born again experience according to scripture, but you have chosen to ignore that as well, when it is all together Biblical (Acts 2:38).
To be quite honest I don't see the hostility, I want you to question however it is frustrating when you try to explain something and it the person gets the explanation different or even backwards, this is probably my own downfall though, considering i'm terrible at communication.
The only way to interpret revelation is to use the bible from both parts to understand the visions and the symbols etc with study and God's spirit. All the scriptures I posted had to do with the born again ruling with Christ, resurrection and the multitude and that's what we have been talking about this whole time so what's the problem?
Yes, the born again will rule with Christ, however, they are 2 separate happenings. Being "born again" is the Salvational experience. Ruling with Christ is something all together. You are mixing in Salvation and prophecy together, and that can be confusing to someone searching for Salvation. In fact, the Salvation must come in order to understand prophecy, or "rightly divide" it.
As for your being born again on a baptismal i'm not going to judge you on that, only God knows if your baptized with fire instead of water and possibly yourself. However many are baptized in the name of the father, son and holy spirit(Matthew 28:19). Again if being baptized means that they all good people go to heaven then there's the issue of millions if not billions judging each other (1 Corinthians 6:1-3).
I'm baptized with water and fire both. The NAME (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus! I was baptized in Jesus Name. Not the "titles" of Father, Son, Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38) As far as the rest of your post above, I have already addressed I Corinthians 6:1-3 above. Again, you took it out of context, with the Salvational question I asked you.
6. WHAT? Ancient Israel didn't praise God with singing? You need to go back and read the Old Testament. The singers and musicians were appointed to do just that in the temple in the wilderness. Even before that! The singers and musicians a lot of times went before the Ark with singing and praising God.
Your right there was a select group of singers and musicians appointed to sing and play music, however other then the Exodus song I don't recall Israel as a whole playing instruments or singing, i'm humbly willing to admit i'm wrong though and it's nice to see you reading the old covenant it should be emphasized more, I also said MOST not ALL!!
Do you have a Concordance? There are literally hundreds of scripture with the words sing, singers, singing, music, worship, etc., unto the Lord (just in the Old Testament).
Yes, interpretation comes through and from God, because it is His, and whoever He wants to reveal it to. Here's one of my favorite scriptures:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. II timothy 2:15
When you study out "rightly dividing" in the old Greek: (3718) It means "to dissect or expound" correctly the divine message. It's very important when using scripture, that it is used in it's proper context and not just thrown out there, for the sake of filling up space.
We interpret the scriptures differently according to prophecy and probably Salvation also. I'm going to leave it at that and wish you a good day. I no longer want to answer scripture that has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing, or scripture thrown out for no reason, except to throw it out. It's line upon line, here a little, there a little. While the whole Bible must be taken into account when studying out a question, it is not to be used for anything but what it is intended for.....the saving of mankind.
I could no more tell you what the 3rd toe on the beast means (joke) than anything, because it doesn't concern me how I will make it to Heaven. While I know JW's like to delve into the prophetic musings, it's not pertinent to the plan of Salvation. A lot of what is a mystery will only be revealed when we get there. Do I care about the streets of gold, mansions, etc......no! I want to see Jesus, the one who died for me, and cleansed me from sin, and paid my debt that I could not pay. The one I love with all my heart, and whom I serve. While prophecy is interesting to study out at times, it is not the great commission and Revelations does not have the plan of Salvation.
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Poor attempt at humor...
You know jcribb, you did a huge logic fail in here awhile back, and I posted something calling you on it that could be described as "mean" because I was frustrated with your loose train of thought. But I deleted it before you could read it, realizing you would never see the err of your ways, anyway, and not wanting to ruin anyone's day over minds that will never change. But here you are, getting your scolds in every chance you get (this is just one of many examples). My opinion of you has progressively lowered the more you've mirrored Annella, a woman who has not deserved the continual defense you provide on her part. I have no desire to deal with two Annellas.
Queenofnines, it doesn't really bother me about your opinion - you come in with little remarks (like you did between Annella and teflonfanatic) when you aren't even in the middle of their discussion, except to make those kind of remarks. I made a remark back. So, it's ok for you to make remarks to others opposite of your views, apparently, but it's not okay for me to do the same in return. At least my remark took your attention off of them so they could continue their discussion.
I've told you before, I enjoyed sparring with you when I was new on here - you were excellent at discussing the opposite views with me, and with others. But when things really got heated and more newbies came in, you became more sarcastic and demeaning. That's when I wondered what was happening to cause that. I got to a point where enough was enough so I responded in "like" because that seemed to be the only way to talk with you. I started taking up for newbies and other Christians because of the way you were treating them.
It sure would be nice to get back to where we were because you had some good points on issues and accepted points on my issues. We sparked, yes, but that was normal. Now, it's like if I don't see your view, period, then I should forget it and hit the highway. The only thing is, I'm not going to hide in the background and be a chicken. I enjoy debating, even with you when you debate and not demean, and if you join in just to stir the pot to pick at someone when they are involved in a serious conversation, then you take the chance of people coming back at you, either in their own defense, or someone defending them. That's what I did.
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I've been reading up on some of the stuff that has been posted here, and there are a lot of topics that you are dealing with. I kind of want to butt in and get my two cents in.
I first want to comment about the First Resurrection, as apposed to the Second Resurrection. The First Resurrection, as we can all agree, refers to the resurrection of the righteous who died in Christ; those who were redeemed through the blood of the Lamb. The second is the resurrection of the unjust, or the wicked. The first resurrection is not a set time period, and actually began with the resurrection of Jesus Christ and continues to this day.
Matthew 27:52-53- Shows that many of the saints arose from the dead and appeared unto many. Clearly these saints were part of the First Resurrection. Don't worry, it's not past. It continues until the ushering in of Christ's thousand year reign on Earth, and through it until the thousand years are up. Then the resurrection of the wicked begin.
Resurrection is a gift that God has given to ALL mankind (John 5:28-29 & Acts 14:15), but there are different degrees of glory that man will receive in their resurrection, according to their works on earth:
1 Corinthians 15:39-42 - Says that all flesh is not the same; there are bodies celestial and terrestrial. The glory of individuals at the resurrection will differ as the glory of the sun, moon, and stars differ from each other.
It certainly makes sense that all mankind will not be raised from the dead with equal glory. Clearly there are levels of devotion to God, ranging from the sinner who murders and plunders, to the completely penitent saint. Since ALL mankind will be resurrected, there must be different levels of resurrection.
2 Corinthians 12:2 - Makes a reference to a "third heaven". This is Paul speaking of when Christ appeared to him after he was risen from the dead. This shows the existence of at least 3 Heavens (Sun, Moon, Stars ?).
I'll repeat what I said in another topic, that I think heaven is more a state of being, rather than a physical place. Therefore, when we think of 3 heavens, we should think of the fact that there will be three major divisions in the glory taken up by the human race at their resurrection, all predicated upon their faithfulness.
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Everybody has a choice. Choose this day who you will serve.
If you want people to live the way you think they should live, you can't substitute your little black+white superstitious threat for evidence that it's correct.
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Everybody has a choice. Choose this day who you will serve.
If you want people to live the way you think they should live, you can't substitute your little black+white superstitious threat for evidence that it's correct.
My "threat' as you call it isn't mine at all. I don't substitute a thing when it comes to the Word of God. And the way people should live is by the laws of God, not by how I think they should live. However, the "superstitious" shoe is on your foot is it not?
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and they seed may live.
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My "threat' as you call it isn't mine at all. I don't substitute a thing when it comes to the Word of God. And the way people should live is by the laws of God, not by how I think they should live. However, the "superstitious" shoe is on your foot is it not?
No, that would still be you as you're tossing around and supporting a mythological threat. That is pretty much the definition of a superstition. I'm not superstitious in that manner at all, but nice try trying to pin it on me. I just find it extremely rude to curse those who don't follow the same beliefs you do. Call it your "mission from god" to inform people, it's still naive and unnecessary if you have no viable/universal proof for it. If people want to learn more about your viewpoint/beliefs, you should stay away from that approach altogether. Think outside your box and of the other ends of the spectrum. Not what just solely works for you.
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My "threat' as you call it isn't mine at all. I don't substitute a thing when it comes to the Word of God. And the way people should live is by the laws of God, not by how I think they should live. However, the "superstitious" shoe is on your foot is it not?
No, that would still be you as you're tossing around and supporting a mythological threat. That is pretty much the definition of a superstition. I'm not superstitious in that manner at all, but nice try trying to pin it on me. I just find it extremely rude to curse those who don't follow the same beliefs you do. Call it your "mission from god" to inform people, it's still naive and unnecessary if you have no viable/universal proof for it. If people want to learn more about your viewpoint/beliefs, you should stay away from that approach altogether. Think outside your box and of the other ends of the spectrum. Not what just solely works for you.
Uh, is it me cursing, or the Word of God? You have a real problem projecting your anger at God on me, when all I am is the messenger. However, whatever rudeness you find in all of this, is fabricated, and accusatory. As far as my approach? I use the Word of God......that's what you don't like. What you call naive and unnecessary, is my life's calling.
As far as thinking outside the box, just what would be acceptable to you? Saying that this is all a fairy tale? No can do. Not now, or ever. In other words, if I said nothing at all, that would be acceptable to you? If I didn't respond to any post to me, that would be acceptable? If I didn't use scripture in my posts, that would be acceptable? You see where this is going? Don't say this, don't say that, use a different approach, etc. etc. Since when do you command the dictates of my heart, mind, or beliefs? You don't!
Uh, works for me? I don't twist the Word of God to work for me. It is what it is.....Truth! You are just like every other unbeliever. You stand with your hands over your ears chanting: Prove it. Prove it. Prove it. Who's naive?
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Uh, is it me cursing, or the Word of God? You have a real problem projecting your anger at God on me, when all I am is the messenger. However, whatever rudeness you find in all of this, is fabricated, and accusatory. As far as my approach? I use the Word of God......that's what you don't like. What you call naive and unnecessary, is my life's calling.
Despite the threads title, I find the willingness to use a curse as the forefront of an argument pretty annoying. This isn't some philosophical conundrum-- it's common decency. You can decorate yourself as a messenger from god with a narrow message all you want. It's still a nuisance.
As far as thinking outside the box, just what would be acceptable to you? Saying that this is all a fairy tale? No can do. Not now, or ever. In other words, if I said nothing at all, that would be acceptable to you? If I didn't respond to any post to me, that would be acceptable? If I didn't use scripture in my posts, that would be acceptable? You see where this is going? Don't say this, don't say that, use a different approach, etc. etc.
No. What would be acceptable? What would be a better approach? If you want my .02, I would start by realizing a lot of other people don't think the same old-fashioned way you do. Your reasonings and concepts of things are extremely black and white. Considering your mission, that approach does not run very far today.
Since when do you command the dictates of my heart, mind, or beliefs? You don't!
"Whateva! Whateva! I do what I want!"
Did I say I did? This is what Jdog and the others keep talking about and why we get frustrated-- you take any small amount of question or advice and turn it into something it's not just to paint us as the bad guys.
Uh, works for me? I don't twist the Word of God to work for me. It is what it is.....Truth!
:confused1:
You are just like every other unbeliever. You stand with your hands over your ears chanting: Prove it. Prove it. Prove it. Who's naive?
You'd think it would be the person who solidly believes in Christian witchcraft rather than the person who's simply looking for answers realistically. But I guess that's not the case in your eyes.
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This is a NICE and hopefully NOT DEBATIVE reply to ANNELA as usual my response to what you said is in the order you said them if it's not there I didn't have a response for it.
1. I don't like to teach prophecy unless someone has been given the Salvational message and they are saved. Prophecy does not save you, nor is needed for initial Salvation. My post above is only to say that I know how you JW's like to stay in prophecy more than Salvation, and that makes me wonder why? The great Commission is to take the Good News to the world of Salvation.
Annela this is a classic case of misapplying what I said. I never said prophecy saves us I said "should we not discern it". As for the JW's not taken up the good news I disagree but i'll let you have your opinion. Although not needed for salvation is still faith strengthening to read about them just like most if not all things written in the bible. Should I hold on to only salvation scriptures and throw out the other few thousand scriptures?
2. Joseph is not the only one who had a prophetic dream, Jacob did also, how about Daniel? Peter on the roof? Anyway, what does this have to do with what we are talking about? This kind of throwing a bunch of thoughts and scriptures out that clearly have nothing to do with the subject being discussed is nothing but filling up a page and says nothing.
Annela this is a classic case of misapplying what I said again. I never said Joseph was the only one able to have prophetic dreams I only posted that tidbit in the P.S. section because you always say I misapply scripture or say I didn't know the account, for the record no one is going to get the context right 100% when they post scripture, the people are different and the way of life is different etc. Just cause it's different doesn't mean the subject or the counsel is wrong.
3. Here is a good example of picking scriptures at random and out of context like you have been doing all along. In John 18:36 Jesus is answering Pilate. Of course He is still on the earth, and this is before He was crucified. READ the verses BEFORE and AFTER this verse and you will get the correct meaning.
So he was on earth talking to a ruler, his kingdom is still not earthly nor was he reigning as king before he died, the rulers made him out to be king before he died not Jesus.
4. Why are you quoting I Corinthians 6:1-3? Paul is talking to the Corinthian church and admonishing them to not go to the legal system to sue or conduct a legal matter with his brother in the Lord. He mentions that we will someday judge angels after this life.
Correct, but you somehow miss the point that they will judge angels, and where are they going to judge the angels on Earth? Moreover if they judging them on Earth or Heaven what about the millions if not billions of people judging angels and themselves(they'll judge the world to verse 2)
5. Why do you take scriptures at random and post them when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand? I've said this before, and will not discuss anything else with you unless you can properly stay at the topic at hand. Just because you can pick a scripture out here and there, doesn't mean it's pertinent to the subject. Or maybe you are just trying to fill up a lot of space to look like you know something. You cannot take a scripture out of context because it may have a word that relates to the subject. It could mean something totally different according to the context and Hebrew or Greek definitions of which it is being used.
This is only true if it falls out of context with other scriptures and the scriptures i've posted have not fell out of context they all was on the same subject, people are living in different times and theres different generations of people etc you act like i'm taking a verse about a ritual and turning it into proof that Israelites were engaged in witchcraft or something. Many trinitarian proof texts fall out of context but it's not wrong to stitch them together is it?
6. I know you do.....I do not.....difference of opinion and how we interpret the scriptures.
Probably not necessary but i'll agree to disagree with you and leave the thessalionians scripture out of this.
7. Wow!! What?? Hebrews 9:11, is Paul again speaking about about the types and shadows of the Old Testament and how Christ has replaced the old ways of sacrifice, because he is the supreme sacrifice, and no more will there be the sacrifices of animals, etc. Please do not pick and choose scripture unless you can use it in it's proper context!! Christ is the tabernacle made without hands, the sacrifice Himself!!
Please don't take this the wrong way but are you saying Christ came through himself? ??? Though your right about the context accept that last bit and yes I knew that Israelites sacrifices and service was all a foreshadowing. Anyway is the verse below talking about Jesus passing through himself or a greater place of worship?
Hebrews 9:11 reads 11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,
8. Yes, the born again will rule with Christ, however, they are 2 separate happenings. Being "born again" is the Salvational experience. Ruling with Christ is something all together. You are mixing in Salvation and prophecy together, and that can be confusing to someone searching for Salvation. In fact, the Salvation must come in order to understand prophecy, or "rightly divide" it.
The problem is only anointed ones are said to be ruling with Christ in the bible. I also don't see being born again as a salvational issue unless you want to be running the kingdom and not subject. I see you want to run the kingdom so I can see why it's a salvation issue for you, seriously though you do see anything wrong with millions if not billions of people co-ruling with according to you the second person in the trinity, that's equality to the almighty!!!!!!!!!!
9. Do you have a Concordance? There are literally hundreds of scripture with the words sing, singers, singing, music, worship, etc., unto the Lord (just in the Old Testament).
Agreed with all these statements and yes all of them did worship God, but to say all of them was in charge of music and singing is stretching it. This is almost like saying all of them were priests and kings.
10. When you study out "rightly dividing" in the old Greek: (3718) It means "to dissect or expound" correctly the divine message. It's very important when using scripture, that it is used in it's proper context and not just thrown out there, for the sake of filling up space.
The problem is the verses i'm using are in harmony with the rest of the bible not just some parts. Your reading into my explanations as misquoting the bible.
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This is a NICE and hopefully NOT DEBATIVE reply to ANNELA as usual my response to what you said is in the order you said them if it's not there I didn't have a response for it.
1. I don't like to teach prophecy unless someone has been given the Salvational message and they are saved. Prophecy does not save you, nor is needed for initial Salvation. My post above is only to say that I know how you JW's like to stay in prophecy more than Salvation, and that makes me wonder why? The great Commission is to take the Good News to the world of Salvation.
Annela this is a classic case of misapplying what I said. I never said prophecy saves us I said "should we not discern it". As for the JW's not taken up the good news I disagree but i'll let you have your opinion. Although not needed for salvation is still faith strengthening to read about them just like most if not all things written in the bible. Should I hold on to only salvation scriptures and throw out the other few thousand scriptures?
2. Joseph is not the only one who had a prophetic dream, Jacob did also, how about Daniel? Peter on the roof? Anyway, what does this have to do with what we are talking about? This kind of throwing a bunch of thoughts and scriptures out that clearly have nothing to do with the subject being discussed is nothing but filling up a page and says nothing.
Annela this is a classic case of misapplying what I said again. I never said Joseph was the only one able to have prophetic dreams I only posted that tidbit in the P.S. section because you always say I misapply scripture or say I didn't know the account, for the record no one is going to get the context right 100% when they post scripture, the people are different and the way of life is different etc. Just cause it's different doesn't mean the subject or the counsel is wrong.
3. Here is a good example of picking scriptures at random and out of context like you have been doing all along. In John 18:36 Jesus is answering Pilate. Of course He is still on the earth, and this is before He was crucified. READ the verses BEFORE and AFTER this verse and you will get the correct meaning.
So he was on earth talking to a ruler, his kingdom is still not earthly nor was he reigning as king before he died, the rulers made him out to be king before he died not Jesus.
4. Why are you quoting I Corinthians 6:1-3? Paul is talking to the Corinthian church and admonishing them to not go to the legal system to sue or conduct a legal matter with his brother in the Lord. He mentions that we will someday judge angels after this life.
Correct, but you somehow miss the point that they will judge angels, and where are they going to judge the angels on Earth? Moreover if they judging them on Earth or Heaven what about the millions if not billions of people judging angels and themselves(they'll judge the world to verse 2)
5. Why do you take scriptures at random and post them when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand? I've said this before, and will not discuss anything else with you unless you can properly stay at the topic at hand. Just because you can pick a scripture out here and there, doesn't mean it's pertinent to the subject. Or maybe you are just trying to fill up a lot of space to look like you know something. You cannot take a scripture out of context because it may have a word that relates to the subject. It could mean something totally different according to the context and Hebrew or Greek definitions of which it is being used.
This is only true if it falls out of context with other scriptures and the scriptures i've posted have not fell out of context they all was on the same subject, people are living in different times and theres different generations of people etc you act like i'm taking a verse about a ritual and turning it into proof that Israelites were engaged in witchcraft or something. Many trinitarian proof texts fall out of context but it's not wrong to stitch them together is it?
6. I know you do.....I do not.....difference of opinion and how we interpret the scriptures.
Probably not necessary but i'll agree to disagree with you and leave the thessalionians scripture out of this.
7. Wow!! What?? Hebrews 9:11, is Paul again speaking about about the types and shadows of the Old Testament and how Christ has replaced the old ways of sacrifice, because he is the supreme sacrifice, and no more will there be the sacrifices of animals, etc. Please do not pick and choose scripture unless you can use it in it's proper context!! Christ is the tabernacle made without hands, the sacrifice Himself!!
Please don't take this the wrong way but are you saying Christ came through himself? ??? Though your right about the context accept that last bit and yes I knew that Israelites sacrifices and service was all a foreshadowing. Anyway is the verse below talking about Jesus passing through himself or a greater place of worship?
Hebrews 9:11 reads 11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,
8. Yes, the born again will rule with Christ, however, they are 2 separate happenings. Being "born again" is the Salvational experience. Ruling with Christ is something all together. You are mixing in Salvation and prophecy together, and that can be confusing to someone searching for Salvation. In fact, the Salvation must come in order to understand prophecy, or "rightly divide" it.
The problem is only anointed ones are said to be ruling with Christ in the bible. I also don't see being born again as a salvational issue unless you want to be running the kingdom and not subject. I see you want to run the kingdom so I can see why it's a salvation issue for you, seriously though you do see anything wrong with millions if not billions of people co-ruling with according to you the second person in the trinity, that's equality to the almighty!!!!!!!!!!
9. Do you have a Concordance? There are literally hundreds of scripture with the words sing, singers, singing, music, worship, etc., unto the Lord (just in the Old Testament).
10. When you study out "rightly dividing" in the old Greek: (3718) It means "to dissect or expound" correctly the divine message. It's very important when using scripture, that it is used in it's proper context and not just thrown out there, for the sake of filling up space.
The problem is the verses i'm using are in harmony with the rest of the bible not just some parts. Your reading into my explanations as misquoting the bible.
No, not misquoting the Bible, but certainly out of context, or picking and choosing scriptures to make a point that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Here is a good example:
Agreed with all these statements and yes all of them did worship God, but to say all of them was in charge of music and singing is stretching it. This is almost like saying all of them were priests and kings.
No, I never said ALL of them were in CHARGE of music and singing, however, they all worshipped God in music and worshiped with singing. You are now nitpicking what I said and trying to twist it around.
You are taking portions of scripture and my posts and mixing them up where they are nothing but confusing facts, and the confusing way you interpret.
To be honest with you teflonfanatic, you and I wholly disagree about the scriptures and their interpretation. I noticed this in the last thread we were both on also. I'm going to disagree with you and that's it.
I'd advise you to go back and read what you have posted and how utterly confusing it sounds, and how you have so many things mixed into the thread that have nothing to do with what we are talking about. You throw in a few things that sound familiar or some familiar scripture, but then go off into I don't know what. You can't seem to stay on subject without throwing interpretations out about scripture that is so off the wall.
Being born again is not a Salvational issue? Being born again IS Salvation.
I have no desire to debate you further.......I'm done.
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Uh, is it me cursing, or the Word of God? You have a real problem projecting your anger at God on me, when all I am is the messenger. However, whatever rudeness you find in all of this, is fabricated, and accusatory. As far as my approach? I use the Word of God......that's what you don't like. What you call naive and unnecessary, is my life's calling.
Despite the threads title, I find the willingness to use a curse as the forefront of an argument pretty annoying. This isn't some philosophical conundrum-- it's common decency. You can decorate yourself as a messenger from god with a narrow message all you want. It's still a nuisance.
As far as thinking outside the box, just what would be acceptable to you? Saying that this is all a fairy tale? No can do. Not now, or ever. In other words, if I said nothing at all, that would be acceptable to you? If I didn't respond to any post to me, that would be acceptable? If I didn't use scripture in my posts, that would be acceptable? You see where this is going? Don't say this, don't say that, use a different approach, etc. etc.
No. What would be acceptable? What would be a better approach? If you want my .02, I would start by realizing a lot of other people don't think the same old-fashioned way you do. Your reasonings and concepts of things are extremely black and white. Considering your mission, that approach does not run very far today.
Since when do you command the dictates of my heart, mind, or beliefs? You don't!
"Whateva! Whateva! I do what I want!"
Did I say I did? This is what Jdog and the others keep talking about and why we get frustrated-- you take any small amount of question or advice and turn it into something it's not just to paint us as the bad guys.
Uh, works for me? I don't twist the Word of God to work for me. It is what it is.....Truth!
:confused1:
You are just like every other unbeliever. You stand with your hands over your ears chanting: Prove it. Prove it. Prove it. Who's naive?
You'd think it would be the person who solidly believes in Christian witchcraft rather than the person who's simply looking for answers realistically. But I guess that's not the case in your eyes.
I really could care less what you deem annoying or a nuisance, when I'm bearing witness to the Holy Scriptures. I did not curse so get off the cursing bit. Can't you read the posts correctly?
falconer, you are not looking for answers so get off the finger pointing and accusation that I'm not doing my mission according to your specs. You have said you don't believe. Not you or anybody tells me how to go about my Father's business, except my Father!
The Bible is black and white, yea or nay. Your frustration is unfounded because all I'm doing is living what preach. It won't change.
You just insulted my Christianity, and called it witchcraft. That was pretty low. You are mean.
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You just insulted my Christianity, and called it witchcraft. That was pretty low.
::) You're so oppressed, I know!
You are mean.
Yes, Falconer is so mean, that's why he paid me one of the nicest compliments of my life when he first met me and barely knew me. A year of knowing ya now, Falc! :wave:
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I really could care less what you deem annoying or a nuisance, when I'm bearing witness to the Holy Scriptures.
Because we all know that the Phelps approach always works perfectly when spreading what one deems a good message.
falconer, you are not looking for answers so get off the finger pointing and accusation that I'm not doing my mission according to your specs. You have said you don't believe. Not you or anybody tells me how to go about my Father's business, except my Father!
:confused1:
The Bible is black and white, yea or nay. Your frustration is unfounded because all I'm doing is living what preach. It won't change.
Nothing in life is ever black and white. The fact that you preach that at your age is what I'm trying to grasp.
You just insulted my Christianity, and called it witchcraft. That was pretty low. You are mean.
Considering this thread is where it originated, I thought it was pretty obvious that this was aimed at your undying belief in 'faith-healing' witchcraft. Because that's exactly what it is.
"Witchcraft, in historical, anthropological, religious and mythological contexts, is the alleged use of supernatural or magical powers." - Wiki
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Yes, Falconer is so mean, that's why he paid me one of the nicest compliments of my life when he first met me and barely knew me. A year of knowing ya now, Falc!
:D Yay!
(http://thenonist.com/images/uploads/tststhumb.jpg)
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You just insulted my Christianity, and called it witchcraft. That was pretty low.
::) You're so oppressed, I know!
You are mean.
Yes, Falconer is so mean, that's why he paid me one of the nicest compliments of my life when he first met me and barely knew me. A year of knowing ya now, Falc! :wave:
Birds of a feather for sure......
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I really could care less what you deem annoying or a nuisance, when I'm bearing witness to the Holy Scriptures.
Because we all know that the Phelps approach always works perfectly when spreading what one deems a good message.
falconer, you are not looking for answers so get off the finger pointing and accusation that I'm not doing my mission according to your specs. You have said you don't believe. Not you or anybody tells me how to go about my Father's business, except my Father!
:confused1:
The Bible is black and white, yea or nay. Your frustration is unfounded because all I'm doing is living what preach. It won't change.
Nothing in life is ever black and white. The fact that you preach that at your age is what I'm trying to grasp.
You just insulted my Christianity, and called it witchcraft. That was pretty low. You are mean.
Considering this thread is where it originated, I thought it was pretty obvious that this was aimed at your undying belief in 'faith-healing' witchcraft. Because that's exactly what it is.
"Witchcraft, in historical, anthropological, religious and mythological contexts, is the alleged use of supernatural or magical powers." - Wiki
What??? My age has nothing to do with anything, or how I think or believe. I found God at 19 years old, and I still serve Him.
YES, I believe in every word of the Bible! Always will. My God lives and deals in the supernatural. Again, what I find funny, is if you don't believe in God, why should it matter to you if someone else does? Why is it so important to tear them down verbally, degrade their intelligence, and all around "slam" them because their belief is different than yours?
Admonishing me how I deliver my message is calling the kettle black mister, considering how you and your troop go about posting to Christians.
Like I said before.........waste of time.
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Quote from Falconer:
The fact that you preach that at your age is what I'm trying to grasp.
What is wrong with preaching at "your age?" If people reach a certain age are they supposed to hole up and die? There's no age involved when someone is witnessing for the Lord.
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Birds of a feather for sure......
We're good pals!
What??? My age has nothing to do with anything, or how I think or believe.
What is wrong with preaching at "your age?" If people reach a certain age are they supposed to hole up and die? There's no age involved when someone is witnessing for the Lord.
I was under the impression that as one gets older, it's easier to see and understand the things around them moreso than simple B+W reasonings which is practically all you throw out in your arguments. It's like you've never even heard of the gray area. Maybe you have, but you don't even acknowledge it because it can crumble your base of beliefs.
Again, what I find funny, is if you don't believe in God, why should it matter to you if someone else does? Why is it so important to tear them down verbally, degrade their intelligence, and all around "slam" them because their belief is different than yours?
Magical thinking can be extremely dangerous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0JPRqjTp6Y&feature=related (7:48)
Considering you've fallen for faith-healing mysticism, I'm just trying to move around and figure out what leads one to fall for such obvious hogwash. That, and I'm trying to explain that going around 'advertising' a b+w choice (eternal happiness or punishment) is really not a good way to preach your beliefs. People don't like to hear that-- no matter what you think, you are cursing them. It's indecent to everyone. This aspect is more of a heads-up rather than me trying to provoke an argument. That's all.
Admonishing me how I deliver my message is calling the kettle black mister, considering how you and your troop go about posting to Christians.
Admittedly I have been harsh at random times, I'm just calling out the major problems with what's being presented before the group runs with it. As others have pointed out, you tend to just take any variable personally and nuke the thread with emotional drama.
Like I said before.........waste of time.
That's the christian spirit! lol
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Quote from Annella:
What??? My age has nothing to do with anything, or how I think or believe.
Quote from jcribb:
What is wrong with preaching at "your age?" If people reach a certain age are they supposed to hole up and die? There's no age involved when someone is witnessing for the Lord.
Quote from Falconer:
I was under the impression that as one gets older, it's easier to see and understand the things around them moreso than simple B+W reasonings which is practically all you throw out in your arguments. It's like you've never even heard of the gray area. Maybe you have, but you don't even acknowledge it because it can crumble your base of beliefs.
Falconer, I acknowledge the gray area. However, when I put my faith (trust) in God, that means that I have unshakeable belief in God over the "gray area." But, once again, age has nothing to do with any of this as God can use anyone to be His testimony.
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Birds of a feather for sure......
OK The Devil and is real I can tell you that but hell I don't know about javascript:void(0);
We're good pals!
What??? My age has nothing to do with anything, or how I think or believe.
What is wrong with preaching at "your age?" If people reach a certain age are they supposed to hole up and die? There's no age involved when someone is witnessing for the Lord.
I was under the impression that as one gets older, it's easier to see and understand the things around them moreso than simple B+W reasonings which is practically all you throw out in your arguments. It's like you've never even heard of the gray area. Maybe you have, but you don't even acknowledge it because it can crumble your base of beliefs.
Again, what I find funny, is if you don't believe in God, why should it matter to you if someone else does? Why is it so important to tear them down verbally, degrade their intelligence, and all around "slam" them because their belief is different than yours?
Magical thinking can be extremely dangerous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0JPRqjTp6Y&feature=related (7:48)
Considering you've fallen for faith-healing mysticism, I'm just trying to move around and figure out what leads one to fall for such obvious hogwash. That, and I'm trying to explain that going around 'advertising' a b+w choice (eternal happiness or punishment) is really not a good way to preach your beliefs. People don't like to hear that-- no matter what you think, you are cursing them. It's indecent to everyone. This aspect is more of a heads-up rather than me trying to provoke an argument. That's all.
Admonishing me how I deliver my message is calling the kettle black mister, considering how you and your troop go about posting to Christians.
Admittedly I have been harsh at random times, I'm just calling out the major problems with what's being presented before the group runs with it. As others have pointed out, you tend to just take any variable personally and nuke the thread with emotional drama.
Like I said before.........waste of time.
That's the christian spirit! lol
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Birds of a feather for sure......
We're good pals!
What??? My age has nothing to do with anything, or how I think or believe.
What is wrong with preaching at "your age?" If people reach a certain age are they supposed to hole up and die? There's no age involved when someone is witnessing for the Lord.
I was under the impression that as one gets older, it's easier to see and understand the things around them moreso than simple B+W reasonings which is practically all you throw out in your arguments. It's like you've never even heard of the gray area. Maybe you have, but you don't even acknowledge it because it can crumble your base of beliefs.
Again, what I find funny, is if you don't believe in God, why should it matter to you if someone else does? Why is it so important to tear them down verbally, degrade their intelligence, and all around "slam" them because their belief is different than yours?
Magical thinking can be extremely dangerous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0JPRqjTp6Y&feature=related (7:48)
Considering you've fallen for faith-healing mysticism, I'm just trying to move around and figure out what leads one to fall for such obvious hogwash. That, and I'm trying to explain that going around 'advertising' a b+w choice (eternal happiness or punishment) is really not a good way to preach your beliefs. People don't like to hear that-- no matter what you think, you are cursing them. It's indecent to everyone. This aspect is more of a heads-up rather than me trying to provoke an argument. That's all.
Admonishing me how I deliver my message is calling the kettle black mister, considering how you and your troop go about posting to Christians.
Admittedly I have been harsh at random times, I'm just calling out the major problems with what's being presented before the group runs with it. As others have pointed out, you tend to just take any variable personally and nuke the thread with emotional drama.
Like I said before.........waste of time.
That's the christian spirit! lol
When it comes to Heaven or Hell, there is no gray area. You either accept the Lord or you don't. What is so hard to believe about that? The Bible puts it in a black and white stance concerning Salvation. You might find someone who can water it down for you, but that's not me. I will give account if I warned humanity or not. There is a Hell to avoid, and a Heaven to gain. I'm indecent for telling it like it is? So be it!
Now what I believe is hogwash? Yes, it is the Christian Spirit to turn away from such obvious disrespect for God or His people, and the blasphemy that you like to dish out. Waste of time!
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Quote from Annella:
What??? My age has nothing to do with anything, or how I think or believe.
Quote from jcribb:
What is wrong with preaching at "your age?" If people reach a certain age are they supposed to hole up and die? There's no age involved when someone is witnessing for the Lord.
Quote from Falconer:
I was under the impression that as one gets older, it's easier to see and understand the things around them moreso than simple B+W reasonings which is practically all you throw out in your arguments. It's like you've never even heard of the gray area. Maybe you have, but you don't even acknowledge it because it can crumble your base of beliefs.
Falconer, I acknowledge the ****gray area. However, when I put my faith (trust) in God, that means that I have unshakeable belief in God over the "gray area." But, once again, age has nothing to do with any of this as God can use anyone to be His testimony.
****To rephrase the "gray area": I acknowledge it according to how you see it. However, to a Christian, there is no gray area. It's heaven or hell, no in-between.
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When it comes to Heaven or Hell, there is no gray area. You either accept the Lord or you don't. What is so hard to believe about that? The Bible puts it in a black and white stance concerning Salvation. You might find someone who can water it down for you, but that's not me. I will give account if I warned humanity or not. There is a Hell to avoid, and a Heaven to gain. I'm indecent for telling it like it is? So be it!
Do you realize that the reason you believe these things are because of little tiny organisms you can't see? They're called Body Thetans. They're lost souls of aliens who attach and cluster themselves around you and make you believe in crazy wacky things like this. The only way you can get rid of these things is to join my church and get a reading. If not, you'll wander this life completely void of any individualism and-- oh wait. This sounds pretty insane! Ah well. It's the only way to present it! I'm telling it like it is!
There's a reason scientologists don't tell people stuff like this right off the bat. Please think about the connection I'm trying to make.
Now what I believe is hogwash? Yes, it is the Christian Spirit to turn away from such obvious disrespect for God or His people, and the blasphemy that you like to dish out. Waste of time!
Faith Healing? Totally! It's a scam and it's dangerous. After doing the research, it's much worse than hogwash and the fact that you were presenting it as truth is very scary. If that's disrespectful and "blasphemous", sorry. It's still 110% fake and surprisingly still a problem in the present. If you still think it's really legit, it says a lot about your ability to be reasonable-- I imagine you'll pull the faith card to this statement, but at this point it's nothing more than obvious self deception if you hold this witchcraftery as legit. -..-
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When it comes to Heaven or Hell, there is no gray area. You either accept the Lord or you don't. What is so hard to believe about that? The Bible puts it in a black and white stance concerning Salvation. You might find someone who can water it down for you, but that's not me. I will give account if I warned humanity or not. There is a Hell to avoid, and a Heaven to gain. I'm indecent for telling it like it is? So be it!
Do you realize that the reason you believe these things are because of little tiny organisms you can't see? They're called Body Thetans. They're lost souls of aliens who attach and cluster themselves around you and make you believe in crazy wacky things like this. The only way you can get rid of these things is to join my church and get a reading. If not, you'll wander this life completely void of any individualism and-- oh wait. This sounds pretty insane! Ah well. It's the only way to present it! I'm telling it like it is!
There's a reason scientologists don't tell people stuff like this right off the bat. Please think about the connection I'm trying to make.
Now what I believe is hogwash? Yes, it is the Christian Spirit to turn away from such obvious disrespect for God or His people, and the blasphemy that you like to dish out. Waste of time!
Faith Healing? Totally! It's a scam and it's dangerous. After doing the research, it's much worse than hogwash and the fact that you were presenting it as truth is very scary. If that's disrespectful and "blasphemous", sorry. It's still 110% fake and surprisingly still a problem in the present. If you still think it's really legit, it says a lot about your ability to be reasonable-- I imagine you'll pull the faith card to this statement, but at this point it's nothing more than obvious self deception if you hold this witchcraftery as legit. -..-
Nope....not gonna pull any card, or run in this circle with you anymore.......goodbye.
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Sometimes not believing in something doesn't make it not true. I have lots of things I don't want to believe right now.
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When it comes to Heaven or Hell, there is no gray area. You either accept the Lord or you don't. What is so hard to believe about that?
It's VERY hard to believe. And not for some b.s., inane reason like I want to go boink a bunch of random guys while simultaneously shooting up coke and eating babies. It's very hard to believe because your dogma shoots itself in the foot. A "loving, just" god is going to torture me FOREVER just because I wasn't impressed by the piece of toast he appears in as "proof" of his existence? But the rapist who murdered your mother? He's cool, because god doesn't give a damn about your ACTIONS, only your beliefs. A PERFECT god would not need nor demand worship, etc. etc. This is not me being a defiant brat, this is logical reality.
You people are playing one hell of a dangerous game of make believe. You believe this world is not how it actually appears but is instead some kind of twisted test where those who fail will roast for eternity and those who pass will get Disneyland. This is pure fantasy and delusion and it makes me very sad for humanity.
It would be a very scary world were living in if your god were actually true.
There is a Hell to avoid, and a Heaven to gain. I'm indecent for telling it like it is? So be it!
Yes you're being indecent because what you're selling is a fraud and is extremely detrimental both on an individual and societal level.
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Yes, qon, it makes me sad that you aren't seeing your true destiny, either. In the long run, who does it hurt, anyway, accepting the Lord? If you think there's no God and you die and go back to dust and that's it, then no one's been done in because they are dead and that's it. However, for those that do believe in the Lord, when they die, they are eternally happy in heaven with God and angels and loved ones who also are there, while nonbelievers, when they die, will forever regret not making that eternal choice. Instead, they will be forever in that burning place of punishment.
In short, leave people alone who want to accept the Lord as Savior. If they don't choose to believe (like you) then that's their/your choice. Either way, it's personal and it's their business.
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In short, leave people alone who want to accept the Lord as Savior. If they don't choose to believe (like you) then that's their/your choice. Either way, it's personal and it's their business.
Then maybe christians should mind their own business? That's our whole point here. It isn't the nonbelievers who are constantly seen running around "spreading the good word" on this god with this rude philosophy that they hold most dear.
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In short, leave people alone who want to accept the Lord as Savior. If they don't choose to believe (like you) then that's their/your choice. Either way, it's personal and it's their business.
Then maybe christians should mind their own business? That's our whole point here. It isn't the nonbelievers who are constantly seen running around "spreading the good word" on this god with this rude philosophy that they hold most dear.
I am minding my business, Falconer. I accept the Lord, you don't. That's our choices. I'm not in these forums telling people to get their act together and accept the Lord now. I'm not in here cutting down your beliefs either and calling them stupid or delusional names either. That's not my business to do that. But I am in here debating and discussing our differences in eternity because this is a forum for that.
I'm not pushing anyone to make a choice - I'm trying to give answers to your challenging questions and ask you questions for your answers (as we were doing in a previous thread.) It's when posters get mean, intimidating, name-calling, etc. over the way someone believes as a Christian, that the Christians stand up for their belief in the Lord and defend it or defend others (especially newbies that are just trying to share what they believe or join in with a statement or a question.) I have seen way more of you and qon getting sarcastic and mean to Christians and newbies than I've seen Christians getting mean and sarcastic to you and her, unless provoked.
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Yes, qon, it makes me sad that you aren't seeing your true destiny, either. In the long run, who does it hurt, anyway, accepting the Lord?
You mean...besides this (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=24502.0)?
I have to say, in defense of Falconer and queenofnines, they seem willing to talk to anyone regardless of their beliefs, and they seem egalitarian in how they will treat them. Others on here have made it clear that they need to infer a million things about what I personally believe before they determine how or even if they want to talk to me. The words in my posts aren't enough, they need to know if I'm a "believer" in exactly the same way as them or I may not be worth a response. Falconer and qon have never laid out prerequisites before deciding if I or anyone else is worth their time, at least not that I've seen. I've only been around a few months, though.
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Yes, qon, it makes me sad that you aren't seeing your true destiny, either. In the long run, who does it hurt, anyway, accepting the Lord?
You mean...besides this (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=24502.0)?
I have to say, in defense of Falconer and queenofnines, they seem willing to talk to anyone regardless of their beliefs, and they seem egalitarian in how they will treat them. Others on here have made it clear that they need to infer a million things about what I personally believe before they determine how or even if they want to talk to me. The words in my posts aren't enough, they need to know if I'm a "believer" in exactly the same way as them or I may not be worth a response. Falconer and qon have never laid out prerequisites before deciding if I or anyone else is worth their time, at least not that I've seen. I've only been around a few months, though.
They are both friendly in other threads. They are also great at debating certain things. I have enjoyed debating with them before. I don't have a problem with that. It's only when they cut people for their belief in God with demeaning comments, sarcasm, etc. that I don't like or appreciate. One of them, in particular, really likes to do this type of thing instead of discussing it. Who wants to discuss a religious/non-religious subject with someone who doesn't want to discuss but cut-down and cut-off and try to make you look stupid for believing like you do? That is what I am meaning.
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Yes, qon, it makes me sad that you aren't seeing your true destiny, either. In the long run, who does it hurt, anyway, accepting the Lord?
You mean...besides this (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=24502.0)?
Who wants to discuss a religious/non-religious subject with someone who doesn't want to discuss but cut-down and cut-off and try to make you look stupid for believing like you do?
I've had this happen to me before, and it was not qon or Falconer who did this to me...just sayin'.
Everyone gets heated when it comes to religion; some handle it differently. Just because someone shares the belief that g-d exists with me doesn't mean that they haven't cut me down or belittled me because I interpret what is written differently.
That segues into my next comment about who it hurts when someone believes in g-d. The simple belief itself isn't harmful, but the actions people take on behalf of their belief in the interpretation of what is written. For example, I do not believe homosexuality is sinful, but many others do, and because others do they vote in a way that is discriminatory and act differently toward people who are homosexual. People pass judgment on the lives of others (while saying they love the sinner but hate the sin) in the ways they act toward people who are homosexual and in the things that have become acceptable everyday conversation. Don't like something; it must be gay. Kids were kicked down the stairs and bullied because they are effeminate, well those boys should man up because everyone has been bullied and maybe they shouldn't act so gay.
Believe it or not, like it or not, everyone's religion plays a dominant part of how they act, especially toward others. I think it is this type of action that Falconer and qon have such a hard time with. Forgive me if I'm wrong, Falc and queen.
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I thikn this place is the first place for free money form just posting good forums!!!!! Any Body Agree? with me?
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In short, leave people alone who want to accept the Lord as Savior. If they don't choose to believe (like you) then that's their/your choice. Either way, it's personal and it's their business.
Then maybe christians should mind their own business? That's our whole point here. It isn't the nonbelievers who are constantly seen running around "spreading the good word" on this god with this rude philosophy that they hold most dear.
I kind of disagree. Though christians are trying to spread their various forms of doctrine, "non-believers" are doing the same thing, just in a different tone. I have had atheistic views pushed on to me time and time again (not necessarily by anyone here), just as often, in fact, as religious ones.
Both sides try to sell their points equally as often.
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Yes, qon, it makes me sad that you aren't seeing your true destiny, either. In the long run, who does it hurt, anyway, accepting the Lord?
You mean...besides this (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=24502.0)?
Who wants to discuss a religious/non-religious subject with someone who doesn't want to discuss but cut-down and cut-off and try to make you look stupid for believing like you do?
I've had this happen to me before, and it was not qon or Falconer who did this to me...just sayin'.
Everyone gets heated when it comes to religion; some handle it differently. Just because someone shares the belief that g-d exists with me doesn't mean that they haven't cut me down or belittled me because I interpret what is written differently.
That segues into my next comment about who it hurts when someone believes in g-d. The simple belief itself isn't harmful, but the actions people take on behalf of their belief in the interpretation of what is written. For example, I do not believe homosexuality is sinful, but many others do, and because others do they vote in a way that is discriminatory and act differently toward people who are homosexual. People pass judgment on the lives of others (while saying they love the sinner but hate the sin) in the ways they act toward people who are homosexual and in the things that have become acceptable everyday conversation. Don't like something; it must be gay. Kids were kicked down the stairs and bullied because they are effeminate, well those boys should man up because everyone has been bullied and maybe they shouldn't act so gay.
Believe it or not, like it or not, everyone's religion plays a dominant part of how they act, especially toward others. I think it is this type of action that Falconer and qon have such a hard time with. Forgive me if I'm wrong, Falc and queen.
Amy......Christians do not kick gays down stairs or bully gays because they are gay. However, I vote the dictates of my heart as a Christian. I don't go to the polls to vote with a vendetta against any group of people. My Christianity does have an effect on how I vote on some issues (I'm conservative). I believe what the Bible says, and line my life up to it as much as possible. That's my right as an American Citizen, and everybody else Amy....believer in God or non. You cannot post that how we vote is not acceptable, because the law says we can vote how ever we want....so can you. You have posted this voting thing before and how it upsets you. Use your energy to change what you don't like. That's what my church does.
Whatever hard time anybody (falconer, qone, etc.) has with anything posted on this forum, they are welcome to post a rebuttal or whatever......with manners. However, that has not been the case. The Christians on here don't call names, belittle, or call people stupid, for not believing. I find it hilarious that a lot gets swept under the rug what is said to believers on here, but we are accused of not acting like how Christians should. If we stand up for anything that is said against us, then we aren't walking the "walk".
Who's judging who Amy?
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Quote from Amy:
I've had this happen to me before, and it was not qon or Falconer who did this to me...just sayin'.
That's fine and well! I'm speaking of my experience and others' experience with them on here on this certain subject.
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Annella, you're just continuing to take what a person posts and twist it to what you want to say. How was anything I said judgmental? Please, take your own advice and get over yourself. Try fully reading what a person posts before you jump all over them. This is the second time you've done this to me unprovoked. Christians don't kick gay people down stairs? Try again. They may not fit the ideal of what you may perceive to be Christian, but many of them claim the religion. Are they "True Christians?" Not for me to decide. I'm not a Christian, however, the majority of this country is. Do the math.
Jcribb, I was agreeing with you that people don't want to discuss topics with people who cut down and belittle them. I was not trying to cut you down with my post, but just add another dimension to the issue. Please don't have any hard feelings with me regarding that. I have nothing but the highest respect for you as a person, otherwise I would not talk with you outside this forum. :thumbsup:
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When it comes to Heaven or Hell, there is no gray area. You either accept the Lord or you don't. What is so hard to believe about that?
It's VERY hard to believe. And not for some b.s., inane reason like I want to go boink a bunch of random guys while simultaneously shooting up coke and eating babies. It's very hard to believe because your dogma shoots itself in the foot. A "loving, just" god is going to torture me FOREVER just because I wasn't impressed by the piece of toast he appears in as "proof" of his existence? But the rapist who murdered your mother? He's cool, because god doesn't give a damn about your ACTIONS, only your beliefs. A PERFECT god would not need nor demand worship, etc. etc. This is not me being a defiant brat, this is logical reality.
You people are playing one hell of a dangerous game of make believe. You believe this world is not how it actually appears but is instead some kind of twisted test where those who fail will roast for eternity and those who pass will get Disneyland. This is pure fantasy and delusion and it makes me very sad for humanity.
It would be a very scary world were living in if your god were actually true.
There is a Hell to avoid, and a Heaven to gain. I'm indecent for telling it like it is? So be it!
Yes you're being indecent because what you're selling is a fraud and is extremely detrimental both on an individual and societal level.
For one thing, I'm NOT selling anything but the Word of God.....and that is free to anybody, which YOU don't believe in anyway.
Go back and read your post and pick out all the belittling words you used above, and this is one of your tamer posts. I'll go pull some that will just about fry the hair.
You ARE being a defiant brat! You said it yourself many times that you were once a Christian. Now all you can do is spew out hate against a loving God, and those who love Him. You call our Christianity b.s., inane, God doesn't give a damn, He appears as a piece of toast as proof of His Deity, our belief is fantasy and delusional, we are selling a fraud, we are detrimental to individuals, and society.
Just because you decided to turn your back on God, is not our fault!! Get it?? Your hate and animosity comes through loud and clear. You like to swoop down on people and try to verbally shred them. Especially newbies. A newbie yesterday put you in your place when you blasted them for no reason. You even belittled them for being a newbie, and shouldn't have any opinion because they were new. Who do you think you are?
The challenge still stands. One on one...you and me. No religion, no evolution, nothing. You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me. Here's your chance. Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.
You come down on Jcribb when she tells the truth. You belittle her posts when she clearly has one "upped" you on something. You turn around and tear up her posts bit by bit. You accuse her of posting sites, and definitions to words, to clearly explain her response, but you just tear her up some more, pointing fingers for the same things you have done in your posts. That's a double standard! You have posted some very nasty things about me without actually posting to me. That's a backbiter. You want to say something about me? Say it to me.
You told someone recently.....I can't deal with 2 Annella's. Okay.....here I am....the original!
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Annella, you're just continuing to take what a person posts and twist it to what you want to say. How was anything I said judgmental? Please, take your own advice and get over yourself. Try fully reading what a person posts before you jump all over them. This is the second time you've done this to me unprovoked. Christians don't kick gay people down stairs? Try again. They may not fit the ideal of what you may perceive to be Christian, but many of them claim the religion. Are they "True Christians?" Not for me to decide. I'm not a Christian, however, the majority of this country is. Do the math.
Jcribb, I was agreeing with you that people don't want to discuss topics with people who cut down and belittle them. I was not trying to cut you down with my post, but just add another dimension to the issue. Please don't have any hard feelings with me regarding that. I have nothing but the highest respect for you as a person, otherwise I would not talk with you outside this forum. :thumbsup:
I'm not jumping on you. I was answering a post about voting and being a Christian. Amy, I think you take things a bit too personal. There's nothing in my post that you should take offense of.
However, when I take offense, it's pretty clear. Right now I've taken offense to some very personal pointed attacks from qon that I'm addressing right now. If you would like, we can discuss this later. However, you are reading in things that are not there.
The phrase of "passing judgement" was used by you, and I was only addressing such. Yes, I know you are not a Christian. You and I have had extensive posts on what the Bible says about homosexuals, the phrase "hate the sin, but love the sinner" was mine. Excuse me for making a connection that I thought was there.
I can't "twist" words that are clearly inserted into your post.
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Try reading what I wrote again, Annella.
That segues into my next comment about who it hurts when someone believes in g-d. The simple belief itself isn't harmful, but the actions people take on behalf of their belief in the interpretation of what is written. For example, I do not believe homosexuality is sinful, but many others do, and because others do they vote in a way that is discriminatory and act differently toward people who are homosexual. People pass judgment on the lives of others (while saying they love the sinner but hate the sin) in the ways they act toward people who are homosexual and in the things that have become acceptable everyday conversation. Don't like something; it must be gay. Kids were kicked down the stairs and bullied because they are effeminate, well those boys should man up because everyone has been bullied and maybe they shouldn't act so gay.
Believe it or not, like it or not, everyone's religion plays a dominant part of how they act, especially toward others. I think it is this type of action that Falconer and qon have such a hard time with. Forgive me if I'm wrong, Falc and queen.
Do you own the words "love the sinner but hate the sin" because you should be receiving royalties on them if you do. I've heard them countless times by countless people.
But, please, twist that, too, in such a way that you can sleep better tonight knowing that you're right and I'm wrong. Allow me to quote you here: I'm done.
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Try reading what I wrote again, Annella.
That segues into my next comment about who it hurts when someone believes in g-d. The simple belief itself isn't harmful, but the actions people take on behalf of their belief in the interpretation of what is written. For example, I do not believe homosexuality is sinful, but many others do, and because others do they vote in a way that is discriminatory and act differently toward people who are homosexual. People pass judgment on the lives of others (while saying they love the sinner but hate the sin) in the ways they act toward people who are homosexual and in the things that have become acceptable everyday conversation. Don't like something; it must be gay. Kids were kicked down the stairs and bullied because they are effeminate, well those boys should man up because everyone has been bullied and maybe they shouldn't act so gay.
Believe it or not, like it or not, everyone's religion plays a dominant part of how they act, especially toward others. I think it is this type of action that Falconer and qon have such a hard time with. Forgive me if I'm wrong, Falc and queen.
Do you own the words "love the sinner but hate the sin" because you should be receiving royalties on them if you do. I've heard them countless times by countless people.
But, please, twist that, too, in such a way that you can sleep better tonight knowing that you're right and I'm wrong. Allow me to quote you here: I'm done.
Amy, what in the world is wrong with you? You are making a mountain out of a molehill. I was answering your post. You are absolutely reading something into this that is not there. It's silly. Okay, be done...I think that's a good choice at this point....shalom.
Amy, we disagree on a lot, and it comes out in our posts, but I thought you had better understanding than this.
I do want to say this....no matter how falconer or qon acts towards any Christians post, it can be done without cutting them down, belittle the Christian, call them names, degrade their Faith, etc. There is no excuse for that kind of behavior, no matter if they are unbelievers. We as Christians don't do it to them.....so I'm going to have to disagree with your above post concerning them.
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Christians do not kick gays down stairs or bully gays because they are gay.
Uh...yes they do. It's just one of a million reasons why your religion is utter poison. What planet are you living on to deny this??
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In the long run, who does it hurt, anyway, accepting the Lord?
Such a privileged American, ugh! We've already been over this numerous times. Plenty of examples have been listed, videos posted, resources provided. You really want to turn me into a broken record, huh?
Turn on the news sometime! Open a history book! I can't believe how willfully ignorant you are being on this matter.
while nonbelievers, when they die, will forever regret not making that eternal choice. Instead, they will be forever in that burning place of punishment.
Read this over a few times to yourself and CONTEMPLATE. I really don't think you truly believe it, because any GOOD person would no be so passe about such a vile concept. You're a good person, aren't you?
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The challenge still stands. One on one...you and me. No religion, no evolution, nothing. You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me. Here's your chance. Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.
lol Okay, place your bets everyone! Schoolyard fight at 3! Haha... I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class. Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...). ;)
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I have to say, in defense of Falconer and queenofnines, they seem willing to talk to anyone regardless of their beliefs, and they seem egalitarian in how they will treat them. Others on here have made it clear that they need to infer a million things about what I personally believe before they determine how or even if they want to talk to me. The words in my posts aren't enough, they need to know if I'm a "believer" in exactly the same way as them or I may not be worth a response. Falconer and qon have never laid out prerequisites before deciding if I or anyone else is worth their time, at least not that I've seen. I've only been around a few months, though.
Wow, thanks Kez! That was a nice out-of-the-blue gesture! :) You make a good point that I didn't really see.
Believe it or not, like it or not, everyone's religion plays a dominant part of how they act, especially toward others. I think it is this type of action that Falconer and qon have such a hard time with. Forgive me if I'm wrong, Falc and queen.
As usual, you're pretty much right on. There are people I know that disregard many random ideas of christianity and they are much more fine individuals than the people I know who follow it word-for-word. Over a month ago I was up talking to one of them till 4 am and it was nice that his reasonings were much more open-minded and not clotted up with b+w ideas. But on the other side, the fact that these people told to my face that they cannot think otherwise because that would breach their faith in the bible...the deception they willingly bathe in is just absolutely creepy. Fortunately I don't know of anyone personally who promotes the whole hell/hades idea, but I'm pretty sure that's because the people I know have atleast a few ounces of decency in them to not go around being naive jerks. That's just my personal story though.
I kind of disagree. Though christians are trying to spread their various forms of doctrine, "non-believers" are doing the same thing, just in a different tone. I have had atheistic views pushed on to me time and time again (not necessarily by anyone here), just as often, in fact, as religious ones.
Really? Where are you from? Because if we're talking beliefs being pushed on the individual, it's like 92% religious 8% non for me. lol
Amy, I think you take things a bit too personal.
The most hypocritical statement on Fusioncash I have ever seen.
lol Okay, place your bets everyone! Schoolyard fight at 3! Haha... I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class. Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...).
Be weary, Knight of the Freethinkers! She has the faith-healing power that grants her +25hp/10 sec! Use your Sword of the Skeptic and Shield of the Rational to drain her magic points quick! She will then run away once she is depleted!
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Christians do not kick gays down stairs or bully gays because they are gay.
Uh...yes they do. It's just one of a million reasons why your religion is utter poison. What planet are you living on to deny this??
Queenofnines: It does not matter if people are Christians or non-christians, both are guilty of "kicking the gays downstairs or bullying gays because they are gay." Face reality.
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In the long run, who does it hurt, anyway, accepting the Lord?
Such a privileged American, ugh! We've already been over this numerous times. Plenty of examples have been listed, videos posted, resources provided. You really want to turn me into a broken record, huh?
Turn on the news sometime! Open a history book! I can't believe how willfully ignorant you are being on this matter.
while nonbelievers, when they die, will forever regret not making that eternal choice. Instead, they will be forever in that burning place of punishment.
Read this over a few times to yourself and CONTEMPLATE. I really don't think you truly believe it, because any GOOD person would no be so passe about such a vile concept. You're a good person, aren't you?
And how is your response considered to be a debatable answer? You called me willfully ignorant, and being so "passe about such a vile concept." Come now, turn it around and give it back to yourself. Maybe I should call you the same and your nonbelief vile. Is that what debating is all about in your mind? Well, it's not in my mind and heart to do that to you. I don't agree with you, but good grief, I don't think you are ignorant or believing in a vile concept of being an atheist. And neither am I ignorant. I am an adult who believes in the Lord and what is to come.
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I think I may start posting this webpage on every religion topic I come across on here. Be mindful that it comes from cracked.com so some of the words/language/pictures could be deemed offensive to some. The article, though, stands as one of the best I've seen online regarding the difference between Christians and Atheists. Please click and read. :thumbsup:
http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html
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Amy, I checked out your link. Thank you for sharing. Here are some of the examples that support what I was trying to say to qon about both sides being responsible for the "gay" situations, murders, etc.:
"All we need to agree on is this: it happens in both cases. And if the opposing belief system vanished tomorrow, war and bloodshed and terror would still take place."
"So please, please, please, when we get into these atheist vs. Christian arguments, can the atheists stop acting like Christians want to abolish all science and live in grass huts? Just because some Christians reject the science on evolution, doesn't mean they reject all science."
"To move on, we only need to agree that rejecting science on one subject doesn't mean you reject all science on all subjects, and that rejecting Christian morality doesn't mean rejecting all morality."
"Remember when I said that, when somebody comes on too strong, no matter what they're selling, we tend to run the other way? I mean, sure, the "God Hates Fags" guy has changed tens of thousands of minds. But not in the direction he intended."
"People are not convinced that way. The sarcasm, the disdain, the laughter. It makes you feel better, and rallies your friends, but it does exactly nothing to change minds on the other side."
"Be tolerant. Lead by example.
Both of you.
And don't think of it as a tactic to win converts. Think of it as common courtesy."
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I love that article, because it is something we see all too often on both sides of the debate. No one is going to be convinced when they are jumped on or shut down. I think there is an armor that everyone builds up and when they go into a debate about religion, they are automatically on the defensive (in general, not specifically).
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The challenge still stands. One on one...you and me. No religion, no evolution, nothing. You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me. Here's your chance. Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.
lol Okay, place your bets everyone! Schoolyard fight at 3! Haha... I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class. Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...). ;)
Christians do not kick gays down stairs or bully gays because they are gay.
Uh...yes they do. It's just one of a million reasons why your religion is utter poison. What planet are you living on to deny this??
Never, has any Christian on here talked to you like you do to them or just newbies for that matter. You are a BULLY with a filthy mouth. The only reason you are not saying worse is because of FC's policy. While you have exhibited your hate for God, and anyone who might love and serve Him, it does nothing but show how utterly miserable you are. It comes through loud and clear. People aren't stupid qon, and they can pretty much pick out peoples mental/emotional health by what filth they post over and over again.
What has being a former Christian have to do with how you are now, except that you couldn't cut it and ran? Everybody fails, and has to get up, dust themselves off, and go on. Something or someone stole your victory, and you LET THEM!! Now you are angry and vicious to ANYONE who even says they believe in God. Do you have any idea how pathetic that comes across? Do you think people can't see what is behind all your posts? Your anger and anomosity against anything good or Holy towards God, makes you toxic! You need to ask yourself why? Lots of people don't believe in God, but they are not vicious, or set out to verbally destroy or shred a perfect stranger on a forum. Why do you feel you must belittle, degrade, call names, or demean people just because they have a different belief system than you? There's a way to disagree without acting like a verbal shrew.
I'm glad that newbie pegged you for what you are. A lot of them never post again. No one has trouble with you but me? LOLOLOLOLOL That's a laugh and a half. The only poison being spread here is coming out of your mouth! You have this cutting way of posting, so people are afraid to post back to you....I'm not!!!!
Get over yourself, this is not a contest, or to prove anything. All of us are human with different beliefs. I'm not in a personality contest. Can't afford to be. My Father and His Word is what I live by. You do not....fine! Cut the garbage with the nasty innuendos and name calling, blasphemies against heaven, etc. If you had a boss that was a Christian, would you talk to them in real life like you do on here? I doubt it.
Even though we are Christians, we are also someone's mother, son, daughter, father, etc. People on the same earth, living in the same country. We can disagree, but why does it have to be verbal hate, spewing discontent, and animosity? I came back into this thread, because of how you were treating Jcribb. While she can take care of herself, you think you can verbally kick and bite anyone that believes. Get over it, the world is full of people that believe in God of one type or another. We can disagree, debate, say we think the other is wrong, whatever, but when does it become acceptable to verbally shred people or cut them down because they love God? Something is haywire with you, and it comes out loud and clear. Sometimes people have built such a defense of spite and hate around them for so many years, they have no idea how vulgar they come across to innocent people just posting a thought on a forum. Maybe you have done this for so long it's become second nature to you and don't realize it. If that's the case, then you have become reprobate silver, in which case, that's the most dangerous place an ex Christian can find themselves.
Is it sporting fun for you to degrade Christians that love God and humanity to the point where they don't want to pray for humanity anymore? Good job!! I have strong Christians tell me all the time that they are sick of the fact, that people don't want to do anything but mock God in this day and age. Why do you think we are so happy that time is winding down, and we look forward to Christ coming back? Jcribb says she prays for you, and that is the best gift anyone can do for anyone else, and you call her stupid and ignorant. Again....good job!
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I have to say, in defense of Falconer and queenofnines, they seem willing to talk to anyone regardless of their beliefs, and they seem egalitarian in how they will treat them. Others on here have made it clear that they need to infer a million things about what I personally believe before they determine how or even if they want to talk to me. The words in my posts aren't enough, they need to know if I'm a "believer" in exactly the same way as them or I may not be worth a response. Falconer and qon have never laid out prerequisites before deciding if I or anyone else is worth their time, at least not that I've seen. I've only been around a few months, though.
Wow, thanks Kez! That was a nice out-of-the-blue gesture! :) You make a good point that I didn't really see.
Believe it or not, like it or not, everyone's religion plays a dominant part of how they act, especially toward others. I think it is this type of action that Falconer and qon have such a hard time with. Forgive me if I'm wrong, Falc and queen.
As usual, you're pretty much right on. There are people I know that disregard many random ideas of christianity and they are much more fine individuals than the people I know who follow it word-for-word. Over a month ago I was up talking to one of them till 4 am and it was nice that his reasonings were much more open-minded and not clotted up with b+w ideas. But on the other side, the fact that these people told to my face that they cannot think otherwise because that would breach their faith in the bible...the deception they willingly bathe in is just absolutely creepy. Fortunately I don't know of anyone personally who promotes the whole hell/hades idea, but I'm pretty sure that's because the people I know have atleast a few ounces of decency in them to not go around being naive jerks. That's just my personal story though.
I kind of disagree. Though christians are trying to spread their various forms of doctrine, "non-believers" are doing the same thing, just in a different tone. I have had atheistic views pushed on to me time and time again (not necessarily by anyone here), just as often, in fact, as religious ones.
Really? Where are you from? Because if we're talking beliefs being pushed on the individual, it's like 92% religious 8% non for me. lol
Amy, I think you take things a bit too personal.
The most hypocritical statement on Fusioncash I have ever seen.
lol Okay, place your bets everyone! Schoolyard fight at 3! Haha... I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class. Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...).
Be weary, Knight of the Freethinkers! She has the faith-healing power that grants her +25hp/10 sec! Use your Sword of the Skeptic and Shield of the Rational to drain her magic points quick! She will then run away once she is depleted!
Know what falconer, you are getting more and more like qon everyday. What a goal to attain to. Now come back with a witty remark that is nothing but sarcasm, as I know you can. I'm never depleted, just not in the mood to debate with someone who can't post anything but personal attacks. Your posts use to be full of intelligent information. Not so much anymore, when you decided to revert to the put downs, etc., that you see your co-hort has resorted to from the beginning. I have no desire to talk with you when you are like you have been since I've been back.
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Know what falconer, you are getting more and more like qon everyday. What a goal to attain to. Now come back with a witty remark that is nothing but sarcasm, as I know you can. I'm never depleted, just not in the mood to debate with someone who can't post anything but personal attacks. Your posts use to be full of intelligent information. Not so much anymore, when you decided to revert to the put downs, etc., that you see your co-hort has resorted to from the beginning. I have no desire to talk with you when you are like you have been since I've been back.
I figured you're just this rock-solid case of overzealousness that is incapable of reasoning things out, so I might as well save myself the time of explaining how things actually work in the real world and just enjoy the drama! lol Seriously though- the post you quoted-- none of it was aimed at you except the end. I could see how you could take the whole thing personally but I wasn't even thinking about FC. I was just sharing my non-internet stories on the subject. It was creepy and awkward when people told me they willingly keep their eyes shut and grasp for straws. Very "...uhh...wut?" moments.
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Know what falconer, you are getting more and more like qon everyday. What a goal to attain to. Now come back with a witty remark that is nothing but sarcasm, as I know you can. I'm never depleted, just not in the mood to debate with someone who can't post anything but personal attacks. Your posts use to be full of intelligent information. Not so much anymore, when you decided to revert to the put downs, etc., that you see your co-hort has resorted to from the beginning. I have no desire to talk with you when you are like you have been since I've been back.
I figured you're just this rock-solid case of overzealousness that is incapable of reasoning things out, so I might as well save myself the time of explaining how things actually work in the real world and just enjoy the drama! lol Seriously though- the post you quoted-- none of it was aimed at you except the end. I could see how you could take the whole thing personally but I wasn't even thinking about FC. I was just sharing my non-internet stories on the subject. It was creepy and awkward when people told me they willingly keep their eyes shut and grasp for straws. Very "...uhh...wut?" moments.
Sorry, must have missed something about the grasping for straws. Now I'm incapable of reasoning? I knew you couldn't post without at least one putdown ::)
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Now I'm incapable of reasoning? I knew you couldn't post without at least one putdown
Pertaining to the subject? Completely.
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::)
Now I'm incapable of reasoning? I knew you couldn't post without at least one putdown
Pertaining to the subject? Completely.
::)
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@Annella's long angry rant: WOW. Congrats on wasting your time. And I mean that in the strictest sense of the phrase...congrats on wasting your time. It takes quite a bit of effort to write THAT much over the equivalent of less than a paragraph combined on my end. I obviously made you very angry when I wasn't even trying to. All I meant with the gay thing is that you were being a HYPOCRITE for saying what you did and you know it.
I'm not going to apologize for my tell-it-like-it-is style of writing. Because I know for a fact it makes no difference HOW the info is presented, you people will choose to be offended and play the victim card regardless.
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Quote from queenofnines:
I'm not going to apologize for my tell-it-like-it-is style of writing. Because I know for a fact it makes no difference HOW the info is presented, you people will choose to be offended and play the victim card regardless.
Just to clarify to our other readers, no one in here, Christian or non-christian, is playing any victim card. The subject in this thread is a lot more intense and deep than playing any petty victim card. Also, no one is choosing to be offended, either (or are you?). Both sides should be heard, you know that.
But what in the world do you get out of being sarcastic? Does it really do your heart good to take part in a mature discussion with your type of comments? What you are doing is showing others that you apparently don't know how to come back with reasons and ideas to support your belief anymore, nor do you respect any posters who try to answer reasonable to you. I guess you've noticed that no matter what you say, sarcastically, meanly, etc., it is not getting you anywhere with anything, except with like-minded posters who don't really care to debate as much as they like to provoke.
I'm used to your new way, now, but newbies aren't. Why don't you show some diplomacy with others in here and actually talk sense about atheism/science/religion? You might find that as the Bible says, "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." (Proverbs 15:1) Proverbs 16:20 says, "He that handleth a matter wisely, shall find good..." Christian posters (such as myself) would enjoy sparking with you under the umbrella of wisdom, so to speak. I enjoy debating with other non-christians and they act like mature adults with respect for others' beliefs, and vice versa for me.
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@Annella's long angry rant: WOW. Congrats on wasting your time. And I mean that in the strictest sense of the phrase...congrats on wasting your time. It takes quite a bit of effort to write THAT much over the equivalent of less than a paragraph combined on my end. I obviously made you very angry when I wasn't even trying to. All I meant with the gay thing is that you were being a HYPOCRITE for saying what you did and you know it.
I'm not going to apologize for my tell-it-like-it-is style of writing. Because I know for a fact it makes no difference HOW the info is presented, you people will choose to be offended and play the victim card regardless.
However, your tell-it-like-it-is to newbies is rude and disgusting, and totally uncalled for when all they did was post that they believed in God. All anybody has to do is click on your ID and follow your posts. They can get a good idea what you are all about.
I have NEVER waffled, or been hypocritical on my stand concerning homosexuality. YOU ARE A LIAR!!! Anybody can go back and read the threads. You are taking one thread, and trying to deflect away from what is really being addressed here. STAY ON TOPIC We're talking about your way of spewing garbage to someone who has done NOTHING!!! You like to post your degrading innuendos about me in other threads. That's a backbiter pure and simple. You have something to say to me? Say it to my face!!!
You have a filthy mouth, with nothing but trash, put downs, calling names, belittling, blasphemy, etc. This is a public forum, and I don't set the rules, but I'm going to call you on your garbage anytime you swoop down on any newbie in the future. People are getting sick of your disgusting put downs. That recent newbie got your number real quick, and others will also.
By the way....the gay thread was months ago......stay on topic!!!
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However, your tell-it-like-it-is to newbies is rude and disgusting, and totally uncalled for when all they did was post that they believed in God. All anybody has to do is click on your ID and follow your posts. They can get a good idea what you are all about.
I have NEVER waffled, or been hypocritical on my stand concerning homosexuality. YOU ARE A LIAR!!! Anybody can go back and read the threads. You are taking one thread, and trying to deflect away from what is really being addressed here. STAY ON TOPIC We're talking about your way of spewing garbage to someone who has done NOTHING!!! You like to post your degrading innuendos about me in other threads. That's a backbiter pure and simple. You have something to say to me? Say it to my face!!!
You have a filthy mouth, with nothing but trash, put downs, calling names, belittling, blasphemy, etc. This is a public forum, and I don't set the rules, but I'm going to call you on your garbage anytime you swoop down on any newbie in the future. People are getting sick of your disgusting put downs. That recent newbie got your number real quick, and others will also.
By the way....the gay thread was months ago......stay on topic!!!
Yikes. Someone needs a nap.
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Quote from queenofnines:
I'm not going to apologize for my tell-it-like-it-is style of writing. Because I know for a fact it makes no difference HOW the info is presented, you people will choose to be offended and play the victim card regardless.
Just to clarify to our other readers, no one in here, Christian or non-christian, is playing any victim card. The subject in this thread is a lot more intense and deep than playing any petty victim card. Also, no one is choosing to be offended, either (or are you?). Both sides should be heard, you know that.
But what in the world do you get out of being sarcastic? Does it really do your heart good to take part in a mature discussion with your type of comments? What you are doing is showing others that you apparently don't know how to come back with reasons and ideas to support your belief anymore, nor do you respect any posters who try to answer reasonable to you. I guess you've noticed that no matter what you say, sarcastically, meanly, etc., it is not getting you anywhere with anything, except with like-minded posters who don't really care to debate as much as they like to provoke.
I'm used to your new way, now, but newbies aren't. Why don't you show some diplomacy with others in here and actually talk sense about atheism/science/religion? You might find that as the Bible says, "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." (Proverbs 15:1) Proverbs 16:20 says, "He that handleth a matter wisely, shall find good..." Christian posters (such as myself) would enjoy sparking with you under the umbrella of wisdom, so to speak. I enjoy debating with other non-christians and they act like mature adults with respect for others' beliefs, and vice versa for me.
Unfortunately Jcribb, I have no desire to debate with people who blaspheme my God, drag my belief in the mud, call Christians stupid, ignorant, delusional, etc., and then say it's "acceptable" as discussion.
I debate with unbelievers on here and we have good discussions. I owe one such person on here a post, and also a believer. Neither one of them treat me like garbage, however the fact that neither one of them see eye to eye and visa versa. We hold each other in esteem as human beings with respect. What I'm saying is that there is a right and wrong way to address someone, and it's more prevalent in this part of the forum than anywhere else, to see how far individuals can go to make the other person feel as degraded as possible.
I come out of a meeting with people of genuine love for one another, and don't want to leave. The world is cold and harsh, life can be tough to say the least, why add to someone else's load that they have to carry everyday as it is? I read scripture tonight that says to think on the things lovely, pure, good report, etc., and realize that's almost impossible on this forum with some people. There's enough misery in the world without adding to it.
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However, your tell-it-like-it-is to newbies is rude and disgusting, and totally uncalled for when all they did was post that they believed in God. All anybody has to do is click on your ID and follow your posts. They can get a good idea what you are all about.
I have NEVER waffled, or been hypocritical on my stand concerning homosexuality. YOU ARE A LIAR!!! Anybody can go back and read the threads. You are taking one thread, and trying to deflect away from what is really being addressed here. STAY ON TOPIC We're talking about your way of spewing garbage to someone who has done NOTHING!!! You like to post your degrading innuendos about me in other threads. That's a backbiter pure and simple. You have something to say to me? Say it to my face!!!
You have a filthy mouth, with nothing but trash, put downs, calling names, belittling, blasphemy, etc. This is a public forum, and I don't set the rules, but I'm going to call you on your garbage anytime you swoop down on any newbie in the future. People are getting sick of your disgusting put downs. That recent newbie got your number real quick, and others will also.
By the way....the gay thread was months ago......stay on topic!!!
Yikes. Someone needs a nap.
Nope.......dinner!
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@Annella's long angry rant: WOW. Congrats on wasting your time. And I mean that in the strictest sense of the phrase...congrats on wasting your time. It takes quite a bit of effort to write THAT much over the equivalent of less than a paragraph combined on my end. I obviously made you very angry when I wasn't even trying to. All I meant with the gay thing is that you were being a HYPOCRITE for saying what you did and you know it.
I'm not going to apologize for my tell-it-like-it-is style of writing. Because I know for a fact it makes no difference HOW the info is presented, you people will choose to be offended and play the victim card regardless.
I for one enjoy your posts.
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I for one enjoy your posts.
Thanks marie. :) Everything okay at home? You haven't been on here much.
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I for one enjoy your posts.
Thanks marie. :) Everything okay at home? You haven't been on here much.
Yeah, everything is fine here. I have just been busy with other things. Yeah, most def, your posts get me thinking.
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The devil and hell are as real as fusion cash. If you believe the Bible, you will have to believe that hell and the devil are real. The bible says that God made hell fore the devil and his angels.
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i dont believe in god persay, i do belive in a god and a godess, and that they are nothing like the (christian) god, we have free will, and they dont condemn anyone, rather leaves it to the universe to deal karma unto you.
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I do not believe in a heaven or hell, when someone dies they will find out.
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I really dont care what you believe it will either matter or it wont Best to cover your bases dont you think?
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It doesnt really matter anyway does it if you are dead then you shouldn't be aware of it
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I think when you die and find out you are still aware, it will be too late to worry any way
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People should try to read the bible more, cuz when you die your body and senses die with it. Hell is in earth where satan was throw down from the heaven. Read your bible more..... just a suggestion. :bunny:
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This is like some continuing tv drama show. I can't wait to hear what her next belief-of-the-week is.
Yeah, it is kinda like whatever suits me at the time.
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I think when you die and find out you are still aware, it will be too late to worry any way
You are so right, except that's when the worry begins, and it is too late to do anything about it. That time has passed.
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Yeah, it is kinda like whatever suits me at the time.
:wave: hi marieelissa!! How are you doing? I :heart: the St. Patty's "snowglobe" & avatar you're using.
Hi, I am doing ok, thanks for asking. I like yours too.
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This is like some continuing tv drama show. I can't wait to hear what her next belief-of-the-week is.
I've got to admit, marieelissa definitely has a way of making sure things don't get too boring on here...for that, I think she deserves a big " :thumbsup:"
Thanks. That was my goal.
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
Marieelissa,
You make it so much fun coming into the forum. I always check to see what you are on about next. You might find the devil in the details, but most likely you will find G_D in your heart. Take care sweetie.
Wow, thanks!
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:heart :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:
listen to your heart. its all there.
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i dont believe in the hell or heaven either, and dont believe in the "christian "god either though
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:crybaby2: I am so sorry to hear that, then what so you beleive? Do you beleive in Heaven and earth?
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:crybaby2: I am so sorry to hear that, then what so you beleive? Do you beleive in Heaven and earth?
I believe there is a God but I really have a hard time thinking people know exactly who it is.
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I think when you die and find out you are still aware, it will be too late to worry any way
You are so right, except that's when the worry begins, and it is too late to do anything about it. That time has passed.
I have a hard time believing God would put anyone in hell.
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The devil and hell are as real as fusion cash. If you believe the Bible, you will have to believe that hell and the devil are real. The bible says that God made hell fore the devil and his angels.
I liked how you put that "the devil and hell are as real as fusion cash" ;), the Bible also says "and anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-15)
I doubt it
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@Annella's long angry rant: WOW. Congrats on wasting your time. And I mean that in the strictest sense of the phrase...congrats on wasting your time. It takes quite a bit of effort to write THAT much over the equivalent of less than a paragraph combined on my end. I obviously made you very angry when I wasn't even trying to. All I meant with the gay thing is that you were being a HYPOCRITE for saying what you did and you know it.
I'm not going to apologize for my tell-it-like-it-is style of writing. Because I know for a fact it makes no difference HOW the info is presented, you people will choose to be offended and play the victim card regardless.
However, your tell-it-like-it-is to newbies is rude and disgusting, and totally uncalled for when all they did was post that they believed in God. All anybody has to do is click on your ID and follow your posts. They can get a good idea what you are all about.
I have NEVER waffled, or been hypocritical on my stand concerning homosexuality. YOU ARE A LIAR!!! Anybody can go back and read the threads. You are taking one thread, and trying to deflect away from what is really being addressed here. STAY ON TOPIC We're talking about your way of spewing garbage to someone who has done NOTHING!!! You like to post your degrading innuendos about me in other threads. That's a backbiter pure and simple. You have something to say to me? Say it to my face!!!
You have a filthy mouth, with nothing but trash, put downs, calling names, belittling, blasphemy, etc. This is a public forum, and I don't set the rules, but I'm going to call you on your garbage anytime you swoop down on any newbie in the future. People are getting sick of your disgusting put downs. That recent newbie got your number real quick, and others will also.
By the way....the gay thread was months ago......stay on topic!!!
Ignore it
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The challenge still stands. One on one...you and me. No religion, no evolution, nothing. You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me. Here's your chance. Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.
lol Okay, place your bets everyone! Schoolyard fight at 3! Haha... I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class. Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...). ;)
Christians do not kick gays down stairs or bully gays because they are gay.
Uh...yes they do. It's just one of a million reasons why your religion is utter poison. What planet are you living on to deny this??
Never, has any Christian on here talked to you like you do to them or just newbies for that matter. You are a BULLY with a filthy mouth. The only reason you are not saying worse is because of FC's policy. While you have exhibited your hate for God, and anyone who might love and serve Him, it does nothing but show how utterly miserable you are. It comes through loud and clear. People aren't stupid qon, and they can pretty much pick out peoples mental/emotional health by what filth they post over and over again.
What has being a former Christian have to do with how you are now, except that you couldn't cut it and ran? Everybody fails, and has to get up, dust themselves off, and go on. Something or someone stole your victory, and you LET THEM!! Now you are angry and vicious to ANYONE who even says they believe in God. Do you have any idea how pathetic that comes across? Do you think people can't see what is behind all your posts? Your anger and anomosity against anything good or Holy towards God, makes you toxic! You need to ask yourself why? Lots of people don't believe in God, but they are not vicious, or set out to verbally destroy or shred a perfect stranger on a forum. Why do you feel you must belittle, degrade, call names, or demean people just because they have a different belief system than you? There's a way to disagree without acting like a verbal shrew.
I'm glad that newbie pegged you for what you are. A lot of them never post again. No one has trouble with you but me? LOLOLOLOLOL That's a laugh and a half. The only poison being spread here is coming out of your mouth! You have this cutting way of posting, so people are afraid to post back to you....I'm not!!!!
Get over yourself, this is not a contest, or to prove anything. All of us are human with different beliefs. I'm not in a personality contest. Can't afford to be. My Father and His Word is what I live by. You do not....fine! Cut the garbage with the nasty innuendos and name calling, blasphemies against heaven, etc. If you had a boss that was a Christian, would you talk to them in real life like you do on here? I doubt it.
Even though we are Christians, we are also someone's mother, son, daughter, father, etc. People on the same earth, living in the same country. We can disagree, but why does it have to be verbal hate, spewing discontent, and animosity? I came back into this thread, because of how you were treating Jcribb. While she can take care of herself, you think you can verbally kick and bite anyone that believes. Get over it, the world is full of people that believe in God of one type or another. We can disagree, debate, say we think the other is wrong, whatever, but when does it become acceptable to verbally shred people or cut them down because they love God? Something is haywire with you, and it comes out loud and clear. Sometimes people have built such a defense of spite and hate around them for so many years, they have no idea how vulgar they come across to innocent people just posting a thought on a forum. Maybe you have done this for so long it's become second nature to you and don't realize it. If that's the case, then you have become reprobate silver, in which case, that's the most dangerous place an ex Christian can find themselves.
Is it sporting fun for you to degrade Christians that love God and humanity to the point where they don't want to pray for humanity anymore? Good job!! I have strong Christians tell me all the time that they are sick of the fact, that people don't want to do anything but mock God in this day and age. Why do you think we are so happy that time is winding down, and we look forward to Christ coming back? Jcribb says she prays for you, and that is the best gift anyone can do for anyone else, and you call her stupid and ignorant. Again....good job!
All I can say is Amen Annella.
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The challenge still stands. One on one...you and me. No religion, no evolution, nothing. You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me. Here's your chance. Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.
lol Okay, place your bets everyone! Schoolyard fight at 3! Haha... I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class. Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...). ;)
LMAO what did I miss?
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If he does not, he is imperfect. If you know bad things are going to happen and you could stop it easily, but instead you choose to ignore your foresight, you're either extremely evil or mentally incapable of reasoning. Either way, christians are playing for a dealer with a stacked deck.
Free will, people can make choices without Gods help. It is there in order to live a life.
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:crybaby2: I am so sorry to hear that, then what so you beleive? Do you beleive in Heaven and earth?
thanks but dont have to be sorry. i am pagan following the celtic and wiccan paths....i believe in the earth only, but there are other worlds parrellel universes, known as magical worlds where we go to perform magick, and where we go after death to await till we ready to be reincarnated to try life again
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Free will, people can make choices without Gods help. It is there in order to live a life
I don't think you understand the example I made. Christian god = all-knowing = knows what's going to happen past/present/future = no free will = he created evil = jerk
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Or: Christian God = All-Knowing = knows what's going to happen past/present/future = allows free will = Christian believer = Eternal Life in Heaven.
Or: Christian God = All-Knowing = knows what's going to happen past/present/future = allows free will = non-believer = Eternal Punishment
That equation idea was great, Falconer!!! :)
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That equation idea was great, Falconer!!!
I give you an F since you don't understand the problem :P . Here's your fault- you highlighted 'allows' when the word before that one destroys the idea of allowing things via free will. And eternal punishment for noticing massive problems? Harsh! I'll write that off as a religious defense mechanism-- a very fearful consequence of a belief. Remember that non-believers do not fear myths about eternal torment. As I've demonstrated in the past, it's just an ancient way of saying "screw you".
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The challenge still stands. One on one...you and me. No religion, no evolution, nothing. You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me. Here's your chance. Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.
lol Okay, place your bets everyone! Schoolyard fight at 3! Haha... I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class. Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...). ;)
LMAO what did I miss?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZakwDX23Jo&feature=email
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The challenge still stands. One on one...you and me. No religion, no evolution, nothing. You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me. Here's your chance. Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.
lol Okay, place your bets everyone! Schoolyard fight at 3! Haha... I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class. Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...). ;)
LMAO what did I miss?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZakwDX23Jo&feature=email
lol walks
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The challenge still stands. One on one...you and me. No religion, no evolution, nothing. You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me. Here's your chance. Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.
lol Okay, place your bets everyone! Schoolyard fight at 3! Haha... I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class. Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...). ;)
LMAO what did I miss?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZakwDX23Jo&feature=email
That is my ringtone. I have to put my phone on silent at work.
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That equation idea was great, Falconer!!!
I give you an F since you don't understand the problem :P . Here's your fault- you highlighted 'allows' when the word before that one destroys the idea of allowing things via free will. And eternal punishment for noticing massive problems? Harsh! I'll write that off as a religious defense mechanism-- a very fearful consequence of a belief. Remember that non-believers do not fear myths about eternal torment. As I've demonstrated in the past, it's just an ancient way of saying "screw you".
Hey Falconor called me an atheist indirectly :P "Remember that non-believers do not fear myths about eternal torment".
On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.
As for eternal torment the Churchgoer evidently can't answer Acts 24:15 and the resurrection of Lazarus, these two posts alone destroys eternal torment. On top of that the penalty for eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden was DEATH not eternal Torture(when's the last time someone felt pain while they were dead?)
Is God lying? Also Falconor's God is the source of life argument for this doctrine was great as well, might be some hope left for this guy :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :
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God does not put anyone in Hell- His desire is that all follow Him
Actually he does
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To create the devil no, to create hell umm NO. To create spirit beings with free will who choose to rebel yes, did man make a way to preserve bodies for the dead maybe.
To reiterate another thread I posted on- your god does not grant free will. It's an illusion that gets taken down by a basic argument. If he is all-powerful and all-knowing, then ultimately all christians are fatalists-- everything is predestined due to this god. Since he is all-knowing (past, present, future), he has predetermined every action we take. That kills the idea of having free will since he knows what's going to happen and who's going to do what. And he allows for it. Pretty sadistic, huh? The only way to say that we do have free will with this god is to say he is not all-knowing, and therefore isn't all-powerful or perfect.
God does give free will. You have your own brain to make your own decisions.
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Your going on the idea he exercises it all the time.
If he does not, he is imperfect. If you know bad things are going to happen and you could stop it easily, but instead you choose to ignore your foresight, you're either extremely evil or mentally incapable of reasoning. Either way, christians are playing for a dealer with a stacked deck.
Angels couldn't even stand in a court with God if he was always exercising his power if he's ALWAYS all-powerful.
Also the fact that God asks questions alone disproves that he always uses his foresight.
Then this alone proves that your god is not all-powerful and not all-knowing. The attributes discussed here are fallible by basic reasoning.
Why should God stop everything we do. That's like a parent getting in their kids way all the time.
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I know God can't be perfect because there is a fault with him from the get go...he loves and wanted to give life, talk about imperfections.
:thumbsup: Bingo! Marie, this is the smartest thing I've seen you say lately. Why can't any of the gods man has invented exist? Because we made the mistake of endowing them with HUMAN qualities.
A perfect god would not need or want ANYTHING. He/she/it would be just fine and dandy existing. Therefore, either god isn't perfect (hah!), or god doesn't exist. Which is more likely, hmm?
Logic...it's a beautiful thing. Use it to free yourself from your superstitions!
Yeah I def believe in my own God now.
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Hey Falconor called me an atheist indirectly
OH NO! Please forgive me! lololol
On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.
Well obviously the child makes a choice, but since it was already set in stone prior to his choice, it really isn't a free choice. It was destined to happen no matter what, and that's why there really isn't free will for the kid. Believing in the christian god leads to fatalism in this respect if one believes he is all-knowing. And if you think this hurts your head...yikes...you should see the massive list of arguments within this idea. It gives me a migraine!
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I realize I posted this in another similar thread but it fits in here, also. So I hope you don't mind if I repeat myself from a different thread. It seems the main disagreement implies that there is an action by God upon a person that negates His freedom to choose. So that would mean the the person making a choice is affected by God's knowledge to such an extent that in essence he really doesn't have that freedom after all. If that's so, can you prove it logically?
We know that God's knowing what we will choose is a function of His omnipresence, since He is in all places all the time. That in itself, is hard to understand. However, this question or disagreement is always going to be unanswerable concretely because when you think about it, we all work in time. God works outside of time. God deals with the past, present, and future realities and only He knows what has been chosen, is being chose, and will be chosen. Another idea of this, too, is that the past, present, and future were created for us for our understanding of time.
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I realize I posted this in another similar thread but it fits in here, also. So I hope you don't mind if I repeat myself from a different thread. It seems the main disagreement implies that there is an action by God upon a person that negates His freedom to choose. So that would mean the the person making a choice is affected by God's knowledge to such an extent that in essence he really doesn't have that freedom after all. If that's so, can you prove it logically?
Already did. If you haven't learned it by now, look up "Logical Fatalism" and get ready for a headache of epic proportions!!!
We know that God's knowing what we will choose is a function of His omnipresence, since He is in all places all the time. That in itself, is hard to understand. However, this question or disagreement is always going to be unanswerable concretely because when you think about it, we all work in time. God works outside of time. God deals with the past, present, and future realities and only He knows what has been chosen, is being chose, and will be chosen. Another idea of this, too, is that the past, present, and future were created for us for our understanding of time.
Then the only way to conclude realistically is to say that christians are restricted due to their god's power and that there's this unfair standard present. Going further jumps into the realm of a 'fantasies fantasy', and this is precisely why any free thinker dismisses this idea from the get-go because it gets so speculative that it's just psychotically irrational to jump to conclusions. Jdog explained it better in another thread going on. There are some interesting work-arounds to this concept I brought up, but those aspects bring about some new big problems themselves. To sum it up, one could compare this whole thing to kids playing cops and robbers.
"Bang! I got you!"
"Nuh-uh! I have a bullet-proof vest!"
"Then ZAP! I shot you with my laser rifle!"
"Nuh-uh! I have vortex shielding!"
etc. etc.
Obviously the kid who's shooting is going to get fed up and say they've ruined the game by not going by anything understandable and that they're making the game too 'far-out' for everyone. The believer will keep on making up ideas to try to allow for it without just accepting an obvious flaw (a la 'shot'), which means it's not even worth debating over because it's so fanatically fantastical and hokey.
God works outside of time.
So does Chuck Norris.
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
i wasn't going to touch on this but is just too good to past up now there is such thing as good and evil. if you have read the bible i mean really read it then you would know that god first angel that want it all was who?
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
i wasn't going to touch on this but is just too good to past up now there is such thing as good and evil. if you have read the bible i mean really read it then you would know that god first angel that want it all was who?
Santa Clause
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
i wasn't going to touch on this but is just too good to past up now there is such thing as good and evil. if you have read the bible i mean really read it then you would know that god first angel that want it all was who?
It's unclear for most who the first angel was besides JW's for obvious reasons. Satan was a high level angel who fall from grace. His first lie (which is often misinterpreted by atheists and the like as claiming God didn't want his servants to be smart) was to contradict God by saying that eaten the fruit will not kill you but instead make you morally independent of God(knowing good and bad) or making themselves God and Goddess(Genesis 3:4-5). Since then Satan amassed a group of angels under him which are known as demons and he'll try a coup de tat on God's kingdom and fail as the Michael wars in revelation point out.
@Jcribb: If the God of order works outside of time then explain 2 Peter 3:8 which reads in bible in basic english(that's a real translation)
But, my loved ones, keep in mind this one thing, that with the Lord one day is the same as a thousand years, and a thousand years are no more than one day.
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I agree with the initial post: I believe in Karma and differences in the length of time it will take each individual soul to progress to the "light" we are all heading toward (and part of) as interconnected beings, but I don't believe in a "fire and damnation"-type Hell. Would a loving, omnipotent Spirit, i.e. God, subject a soul to burn in Hell for eternity, or would the same loving God give a Soul a chance to make up for mistakes and continue onward on an eternal journey to the light? I think it's the latter.
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I agree with the initial post: I believe in Karma and differences in the length of time it will take each individual soul to progress to the "light" we are all heading toward (and part of) as interconnected beings, but I don't believe in a "fire and damnation"-type Hell. Would a loving, omnipotent Spirit, i.e. God, subject a soul to burn in Hell for eternity, or would the same loving God give a Soul a chance to make up for mistakes and continue onward on an eternal journey to the light? I think it's the latter.
Would you think it will be just to force people to feel pain for all eternity or put them out of their misery(stop living and feeling pain). They do get a second chance during the 1,000 year reign of Christ(well most of them)
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Anybody wants the true:"READ YOUR BIBLE"
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Anybody wants the true:"READ YOUR BIBLE"
I do read the bible i'm currently on the book of Job, why did you highlight it red?
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ok i will settle this thing ok.....my belief is this, there is no hell for which you get to spend eternity in torchor. that is just a scheme that christianity came up with to make there followers afraid and live in fear so as to keep them in control....the devel on the other hand, well the devel does not exist but in ourselves. in other words the devel is you and your mind. it is there inside of you telling you what it is that you personally think is wrong or right. it is there telling you what is sin to you. but for some yes it is from christianity and its liturature telling them what it is. but be sure it is nothing of the sorts, the devel or satan is nothing more then you your selves.
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For those people who constantly contradict that our God and His Word (Bible) aren't real, think about this. Have you ever thought that if there is no God and no Bible, then why is so much of our country's buildings, monuments, courts, etc. based on that very God you deny? There are the 10 commandments listed in the courts, the president-to-be (or any other kind of swearing in) has to take his/her oath on the Bible, "In God we trust" is on our money, etc. I know a lot of people don't agree with all of this and want to change it or take it out. But the fact is, it is there, and yet people still argue about no God.
It was pretty much the first scientific theory ever. The idea of god or gods has always existed as a way to explain the unexplainable. Primitive humans lived in fear and superstition based on what they saw happening in the world. They didn’t know about the cycle of evaporation so they didn’t know why the rain fell. So they created a deity or spirit that lives in the sky and causes it to rain. The Christian God is nothing more than another god in a long line of superstitious creations. I believe it was created to manipulate the masses, to control us, to make us mindless sheep. It's easy to scare people into this kind of thing, especially back then when you got stoned for not following their rules. It was the quickest way to make the people do as they were told. Since they were so scared that they'd burn in hell, it was easy to do.
God is not a superstitious creation. As I said above, some of the founding fathers may not have labled the US as a Christian nation, at the time, but there was a strong agreement that much of the discipline, attitudes, and moral abilities were to be based on Godly principles.
I do agree with you that humans created deities or spirits or gods to help them explain the unexplainable. At the same time, the Biblical history from thousands of years past, laid the foundation from the beginning to prepare the way for the Saviour. There was the old law and after Jesus's birth, death, and resurrection, the new law. God began with the creation of this world and it will end with a new heaven and an eternal place of punishment. God is real.
Man wrote the bible not God and just so you know...revelations was written by a schizophrenic.
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Falconer, you know good and well you can NOT prove there is no God. If it makes you feel better to think you can, go right ahead. If you want to continue to think of it as a joke, go ahead. All I can say is that what you and some others do and/or say against what Christians believe WILL definitely haunt you later.color]
This sounds like a threat...I guess threatening is the last resort to convert a person.
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I will be very happy to have a face to face with Creator and defend my actions of speaking out and fighting against all the atrocities committed and being committed in the name of Christianity. If Creator condones all of the supremacy and intolerance commanded by the Xtian doctrine, I would not want to spend an eternity in any "heaven".
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I can choose my destiny. You cannot. Your god is all-knowing and eternal, therefore it has already been chosen for you. Unless your god is imperfect, your freewill is a completely sugar-coated illusion. Mine is up for philosophical debate ;)
Just because God knows what you're going to do doesn't mean you don't get any decisions. You don't know what you're going to do and therefore you are free to decide and choose what you will do. Sure God knows but you don't and you also still get to decide because you have a brain. Are your likes and dislikes from God? Nope, because you have your own mind that is capable of making decisions which is your free will but yes God is all knowing and knows the ending as well as the beginning.
Now, I am not saying I believe any of these but you keep using this silly free will arguement over and over and it gets annoying to see things being so repetitive.
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Just because God knows what you're going to do doesn't mean you don't get any decisions. You don't know what you're going to do and therefore you are free to decide and choose what you will do. Sure God knows but you don't and you also still get to decide because you have a brain. Are your likes and dislikes from God? Nope, because you have your own mind that is capable of making decisions which is your free will but yes God is all knowing and knows the ending as well as the beginning.
So you believe that this god is a cheat then. One can play their hand of cards, but the game is rigged and only in favor of the dealer. Glad you acknowledged it.
Now, I am not saying I believe any of these but you keep using this silly free will arguement over and over and it gets annoying to see things being so repetitive.
Well sorry if it annoys you, but it shows a very strong contradiction with christian beliefs. If new users come in and start throwing around elementary religious arguments, I will continue to use it. Just a heads up.
I will be very happy to have a face to face with Creator and defend my actions of speaking out and fighting against all the atrocities committed and being committed in the name of Christianity. If Creator condones all of the supremacy and intolerance commanded by the Xtian doctrine, I would not want to spend an eternity in any "heaven".
G4U. I forget who said this-
"God has a thing for a community of idiots"
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Um, y'all have the same destiny: dead in the dirt.
Yes, that is what happens to our bodies or being cremated. But we also have energy in us that leaves when we die and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The only thing is, this energy doesn't have a conscience...so we will not live for an eternity the way christians describe it.
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Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.
i'd have to agree with you, i don't believe in hell or the devil either, to me it seems like the devil is a christian's excuse for the bad things they do and a scapegoat for the bad things that happen to them. can't there just be a such thing as life just happening or human nature?
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The first place to begin to find God is on your knees in humbleness and ask the Lord to allow the Holy Spirit into your heart. You will never be able to experience the awesomeness of God's Glory until you accept Him for what He is ~ The Almighty Creator. Yes, there is a devil and a real hell.
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Yes, there is a devil and a real hell.
Yep, I love my Dirt Devil bagless vacuum and a real hell, that's shopping at WalMart on a Saturday. ::)
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The first place to begin to find God is on your knees in humbleness and ask the Lord to allow the Holy Spirit into your heart.
Oh wow I thought you were going to say "mouth" and not "heart".
Yep, I love my Dirt Devil bagless vacuum and a real hell, that's shopping at WalMart on a Saturday.
That is exactly why I rarely shop on saturdays. Who cares about small deals when you're slowly putting yourself in an early grave by entering Hades itself?
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Don't believe it's easier in my opinion.
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I believe in being clear of conscience at the end of the night, whatever that means for you
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GOD IS LOVE. AND THERE IS A DEVIL AND THERE IS A PLACE CALL HELL.
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God does not put anyone in Hell- His desire is that all follow Him
[/q o k let's see now i read the bible and it does speak of heaven and hell and the devil but and order to understand you would have read it regular over and over again.
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well someday u will find out for sure if he exist or not just make sure ur with God n not with that *bleep* .
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The first place to begin to find God is on your knees in humbleness and ask the Lord to allow the Holy Spirit into your heart. You will never be able to experience the awesomeness of God's Glory until you accept Him for what He is ~ The Almighty Creator. Yes, there is a devil and a real hell.
I cant get on my knees..........
..........I have a condition!!!!!!
Seriously folks, still waiting for that post card from heaven or hell-anyone planning on taking a vacation to Haities any time soon???????? HUH??? :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
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if god created man. then who created GOD. someone just don't appear just because he is needed, just how stupid do these Religious people think we are, lets scare people into believing there is a being called GOD, and tell them they have to give a human 15% of their money and tell them they will get to go to heaven if they do or go to hell if they don't, hmmmm what a world, what a world, helllllp I'mmmmmmm Meeellllllttiing
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Giving money to your church will not get you to heaven anymore than not giving money will send you to hell. If God did not create man and there is no God then where and how did our universe develop. It amazes me how people who do not believe in God always tells us belivers how stupid we are
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Hmm. You have proof that God created the Universe?
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I cam to the conclusion that hell is just mans common grave cuz jesus went there and why would God allow that so it just where we are put in the ground cuz I spirit goes back to the one who gave it. We all have choices and free will it up to us to decide how our lives turns out. Just like with raising children we have to guide them in the right direction they don't just know as they grow up we as parents teach them that is why god gave us the bible its a way to guide us on the right path but if you don't take it its our own fault and we must suffer for our bad actions.
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God does not put anyone in Hell- His desire is that all follow Him
I believe this. God doesn't put us there.
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God is not cruel... He's very loving and caring... He's a Father as well and allows His children to make decisions. Unfortunately, we all make mistakes...
New International Version
Romans 3:23... "...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
And, yet, He still forgives if we ask for forgiveness.
He is the perfect God ~ He is the way, the truth, and the light... a God who forgives and also disciplines.
He loved us all so much that He gave and sent His only begotten son to die for us on the cross. Tell me of any other god who did that for you?
Then, His son rose again and lives as a spirit in our hearts... tell me of any other god who died and rose again? None...
God created us and knows our every being from head to toe. He knows our past, present, and future.
If you look deep within your body and past the DNA that every scientist has tried to break down, you will see that every part of our body is made up of something special. Something only God would have put together... a symbol of His existence.
It's called Laminin and it's in all of us.
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who gave this GOD the title of "The Almighty" almighty alright, almighty bull