God in our Public Schools

[Falconer02]

if they take the bible out of school and tell people not to even so much as utter a word about god and things like that isint that prohibiting the free exercise of our religion ...

You fail to see a lot peoples points-- if students simply study the bible to study christianity, nothing is wrong with that. Put it on the same grounds as studying hinduism, judaism, islam, etc. You can still openly read a bible or any religious doctrine in school independantly. You can talk to students about your beliefs if you are a student-- nobody cares unless you're going nuts and pushing it. I see this all the time as I work at/attend a college-- a friend of mine who just transferred told me a bit about hinduism since she was one. OMG I LERND SUMTHING! Just trying to be realistic here.

The argument here is should we PUSH christianity onto students? No. I don't see why we should.

and why when people go to court they put there hand on the bible or there religious bible and they tell them to say .....i swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god

You can request any religious doctrine for that. Secular affirmations are allowed in court. But the thing is if you don't believe in it, who cares? It's just a book that's not going to bite you. Since it means nothing to the person who does not believe it, I think that's a bit of an opening for not telling the truth.

Simply put, they just do it since it's so common.

"Most courts in the United States no longer use a Bible during swear-in of a witness, citing separation of Church and State in due process." http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_person_refuse_to_take_an_oath_on_the_Bible_in_a_courtroom

"The fact that requesting a secular affirmation could prejudice the judge or jury against you makes me believe that religious oaths should be eliminated all together. Everyone should simply affirm under penalty of law to tell the truth. Short, simple, and legal for both believers and non-believers." http://www.funadvice.com/q/if_an_atheist_goes_to_court_do_they

why do they read the bible to people who are about to be executed in prison

Because they request it.

and the whole dollar bill is based on religion even if its not christianty the eye in the triangle of the dollar bill is actuelly the eye of horus   and its used in buddisum, its also the symbol of the christianianity  

Ehhh...I'll look this up later. Not to be mean, but seeing how you didn't do you research for the first few statements...this is up in the air for now.

[totosli_08]

o well in that case ...no religion shoudint be forced on anyone and noone is forcing it on anyone i dont see were thats coming from  ..but   eaither or the fact of the matter is america is  based all around religion and you cant say its not and in diffrent places your no longer aloud to read the bible  in public places  and  that stupied women took prayer out of school so ...were on a verge of not being able to freely state religion anyways ..point blank period  if there was no religion then there wouldint be any morals for people ......

[Falconer02]

..but  eaither or the fact of the matter is america is  based all around religion

Yes! But FREEDOM of religion. Not just christianity. It's just the most common in this country.

were on a verge of not being able to freely state religion anyways

This depends on the subject matter in my opinion. If we're going to follow bible rules in court, we're going to have a very rough time with fairness (such as slavery).

"You need to respect you father and mother, son."
"But your honor, they beat me constantly! They broke my legs!"
"Too bad! That's what the bible says! Deal with it!"

But using it out of those institutions is fine by me as long as they aren't causing trouble.

if there was no religion then there wouldint be any morals for people

Uh oh! I think you just stepped on the liljp landmine!

[totosli_08]

yeh the bible i says honor thy mother and father witch you should do anyways out of respeact  but the bible also says if any person lays a hand on a child it is better for them to tie a milestone to there kneck and  be cast out into the sea

[Falconer02]

Even so, does that not seem a little extreme by todays standards? Obviously punish the parents...but kill them?

[totosli_08]

you mentioned about the bible and it says it is better ....not that should .... but it is better for them to do that ......in the old testement when children dishonored there parents they were stoned ...but in the new testment when jesus came and forfilled the law ...those laws were changed ...so the bible dosint  say anything about killing children in the new testment if there were disobediant  so that would irrelevent if they used the bible today

[Kymberli0529]

I'm not going to put my own views here.  I'll just say there is a reason for the seperation of church and state.  Not everyone believes in 'God' or 'Jesus', do those people not get to have their own views discussed?  As someone said in another post, if you want your children to learn about your 'God' send them to your church.

[walksalone11]

 It was founded upon religious freedoms and equal respect toward all religions,

Really? then why was it illegal for the indigenous of this land to practice our traditions all the way up until 1978 and even now if you are not a registered member of a Tribe the the FedGov. recognises it still illegal to posses some Ceremonial items?

Freedom of religion my *bleep*!!!!

[walksalone11]

how can  you say this is not a christian country all ours laws are based on the bible if you kill you go to jail ..if you steal you got to jail ......the bible says thow shall not kill , or still ,  the dollar bill says in god we trust , the pledge of alliegence says one nation under god  .. get out of here with that you know good as well as i do that  this country is based all around christianity

Events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)

Ancient Pagans

*As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples
were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.

*Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

*Examples of destroyed Temples the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea,
the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the
Heliopolis.

*Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis
were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468] *Pagan services became
punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

*Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed,
because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]

According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all
Christian teachings..."

*In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.

*In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on
demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

*The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to
pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a
Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.

Mission

*Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to
convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]

*Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church
taxes between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain
5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]

*Battle of Belgrad 1456 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]

*15th century Poland 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by
Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]

*16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and
civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable
beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common
of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of
the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother
of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what
sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte
off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche
side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused
"greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde
fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".

Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99,
225]

Crusades (1095-1291)

*First Crusade 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]

*Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96
thousands. [WW23] *9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish),
thousands respectively. [WW25-27]

*Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered
(number of slain unknown) [WW30]

*After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and
60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed.
[WW32-35]

Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the
enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their
bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres.
[EC60]

*Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the
subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were
eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]

*Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish,
muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]

(In the words of one witness "there [in front of Solomon's temple]
was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood
of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people
marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of
gratitude")

*The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote "It was impossible to
look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay
fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the
blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies
and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of
all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the
victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous
sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that
within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels
perished." [TG79]

*Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following
summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of
decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]

*Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the
name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]

*Fourth crusade 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims
unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]

*Rest of Crusades in less detail until the fall of Akkon 1291
probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas
alone). [WW224]

Note All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics

*Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus
and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]

*Manichaean heresy a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice
birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics)
was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between
372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]

*Albigensians the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians.
[DO29]

The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely
sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept
roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]

Begin of violence on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single
pre-*bleep* mass murderer) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209
destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including
Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends)
20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]

*Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed.
[WW181]

*subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half
the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were
exterminated. [WW183]

*After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search
and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the
stake 1324. [WW183] *Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy
alone), [WW183]

*Other heresies Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and
many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some
Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of
persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including
the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).

*Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220
burnings. [DO28]

*John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was
burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]

*University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna.
[DO59]

*Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for
seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori
(Rome) on 2/17/1600.

 

Witches

*from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several
thousand.

*in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars
several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or
hanged. [WV]

*incomplete list of documented cases

The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

Religious Wars

*15th century Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]

*1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all
English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into
action). [DO31]

*1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million
rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain.
[DO31]

*1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope
Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]

*17th century Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader.
After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off
his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the
river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for
the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ...
to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and
crows'." [SH191]

*17th century Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany roughly
30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were
found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still
sucking the *bleep* of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]

*17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant) at least 40% of
population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

Jews

*Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by
Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.

*In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed
on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The
first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river
Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388.
[DA450]

*17. Council of Toledo 694 Jews were enslaved, their property
confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

*The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who
would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

*First Crusade Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000
total. Places Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons),
Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund,
Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations
Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]

*Second Crusade 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully,
Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]

*Third Crusade English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
*Fulda/Germany 1235 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

*1257, 1267 Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton,
Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

*1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

*1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51
towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

*1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two
thousand) burned. [DO41]

*1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly
burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians
in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

*1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

*1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were
slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made
easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the
age of ten had been forced to wear.

*1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than
150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way
6/30/1492. [MM470-476]

*1648 Chmielnitzki massacres In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.

[walksalone11]

yeh the bible i says honor thy mother and father witch you should do anyways out of respeact  but the bible also says if any person lays a hand on a child it is better for them to tie a milestone to there kneck and  be cast out into the sea

The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote
"And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon
their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very
Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who
laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making
them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen,
filling the Place with dead Bodies" men, women, children. [SH113-114]
*So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts,
and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].


"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly
destroy them..." (Deut 20)

*Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the
*bleep* sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his
readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children
must perish with their parents". [SH114]


*Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The
colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to
devour children from their mothers *bleep*, in the colonists' own
words "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them."
(This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)

[walksalone11]

*Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed
religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts
Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to
purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do
bears'." [SH241]

*Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington,
a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to
be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women
and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white
flag 400-500 killed.

[liljp617]

if they take the bible out of school and tell people not to even so much as utter a word about god and things like that isint that prohibiting the free exercise of our religion ...

The Supreme Court has never -- never -- ruled that religion is to be banned completely from public schools.  The Supreme Court has never -- never -- ruled that prayer is to be banned completely in public schools.

As a student, you can exercise your religion/pray as much as you please, provided it does not interrupt the setting and purpose of schools (which is to give everyone an equal opportunity at an education).  

As a teacher/administrator, you can exercise your religion/pray as much as you please UNLESS you are operating in an official government capacity -- ie teaching a lesson, monitoring a classroom of students, etc. -- teachers and administrators of public schools are government employees and thus must abide by the regulations laid out in the Constitution (the government cannot show bias toward any specific religion or show establishment of a specific religion; that includes government employees who are "on the job," as teachers are).

The free exercise of religion is not being prohibited unfairly here at all:

Students may exercise their religion or pray before, during, or after class unless it legitimately imposes on other people's freedoms, imposes on other student's rights to an education, or breaks other acceptable, known school rules such as dress code.

Teachers/Administrators may exercise their religion or pray anytime they are not operating in their government capacity.  They can leave their job at the end of the day (the school), walk across the street to a sidewalk 20 yards away from the school, and start yelling about how Jesus is going to save everyone if they repent.  At that point, they're no longer actively serving as a government employee and their free exercise of religion is fully protected.  However, they cannot yell about how Jesus is going to save everyone when they're teaching a history lesson -- that is illegal and unconstitutional.

and why when people go to court they put there hand on the bible or there religious bible and they tell them to say .....i swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god

Traditional nonsense mostly.  Along with the vast majority of people in this country being of the Christian religion, and thus not thinking twice about it.  Simply because something is done, even on a large scale, doesn't make it constitutional or morally correct.

why do they read the bible to people who are about to be executed in prison

They request to have such things done.  Not everyone does.

there is so much  reason that this coutry is based around religion its rediculous

The fact that religion has invaded the daily lives of people in this country does not make the nation a Christian nation.  The founding of this nation and the principles it is based upon are secular in nature.

and the whole dollar bill is based on religion even if its not christianty the eye in the triangle of the dollar bill is actuelly the eye of horus   and its used in buddisum, its also the symbol of the christianianity  in Europe ... The lowest level of the pyramid shows the year 1776 in Roman numerals. The combined implication is that the Eye, or God, favors the prosperity of the United States look it up ...

There is much debate and conspiracy over what the symbols on the $1 bill represent.

[liljp617]

 It was founded upon religious freedoms and equal respect toward all religions,

Really? then why was it illegal for the indigenous of this land to practice our traditions all the way up until 1978 and even now if you are not a registered member of a Tribe the the FedGov. recognises it still illegal to posses some Ceremonial items?

Freedom of religion my *bleep*!!!!

I don't disagree with you.  Sadly, the principles this nation was founded upon were very idealistic for their time, and perhaps even still are to some extent.  There are countless examples of hypocritical atrocities being carried out in this nation while the correct thing to do is clearly written in our Constitution and Declaration. 

We have lofty ideals such as "freedom of religion, expression, press, etc." and "all people are created equal and deserve equal opportunities" written plain as day in our founding documents.  And yet for decades this nation was founded upon and supported by slavery of Africans, Asians, Native Americans, and arguably a genocide of what I would guess you would label "your people" (Native Americans).

I will attempt to make no excuses for those actions and many more that were carried out in the past.  They were wrong, plain and simple.

[liljp617]

you mentioned about the bible and it says it is better ....not that should .... but it is better for them to do that ......in the old testement when children dishonored there parents they were stoned ...but in the new testment when jesus came and forfilled the law ...those laws were changed ...so the bible dosint  say anything about killing children in the new testment if there were disobediant  so that would irrelevent if they used the bible today

So the things written in the Old Testament are unnecessarily brutal and shouldn't be followed anymore, since there is a "New Covenant" as Christians like to play it off?

[Falconer02]

but in the new testment when jesus came and forfilled the law ...those laws were changed ...so the bible dosint  say anything about killing children in the new testment if there were disobediant  so that would irrelevent if they used the bible today

So the things written in the Old Testament are unnecessarily brutal and shouldn't be followed anymore, since there is a "New Covenant" as Christians like to play it off?

On top of this statement-- why do christians still quote the old testament then? How come they brush off dumb rules like stone your children yet still use other aspects in the OT like banning homosexuality? Whatever's convenient to get your point across to the naive-religious I suppose.