Abortion Ban

[JediJohnnie]

None of the statistics equal "convenience."

EVERY of the statistics I referenced in my earlier explanation of this post equals "convenience"

In your opinion. 
Since you will never be faced with making that choice, your opinion doesn't matter.

Facts are NOT opinion. UGetPaid gave you the stats (Thanks, BTW. I knew them, but didn't know where to find them for reference.) You can't call stats 'opinion' to suit your argument.

[JediJohnnie]

The faulty logic comes in when any person other than the woman who is pregnant insists that she must stay pregnant.
Not your body, not your business.

Again, you don't seem to be getting the point that slaughtering an unborn life over convenience is what we're talking about. It's not a personal choice to allow murder, because that body is in the womb. It's still a life being taken. 

[JediJohnnie]

None of the statistics equal "convenience."

EVERY of the statistics I referenced in my earlier explanation of this post equals "convenience"

In your opinion. 
Since you will never be faced with making that choice, your opinion doesn't matter.

 
The eye roll is for your faulty logic and unwillingness to have a rational discussion about a topic when someone presents a legitimate response to your faulty logic - I've already given a rational response to your "statistics are made up" argument. Your response is that I am not entitled to an opinion because I am a man.  That is the most BS asinine argument out there and I have lost quite a bit of respect for you for making it.  There are many women who share and would echo my opinion verbatim. In your mind, do they have a right to the same opinions I profess because at least they are women who might be faced with an unexpected pregnancy? Why or why not?


The teary eyes are for all of the children (not inanimate lifeless tissue) who will die as a result of entitlement thinking such as yours.


Inadequate finances to raise a child = it will cost too much to have/raise this child - making it inconvenient for me. Having $ is more important than the life I have created, which will suck away all of my fun money. Abortion = Convenience Objective truth... not my opinion.

Not ready for responsibility = raising a child is too big of a responsibility - it would be inconvenient for me to end my selfish me first lifestyle and be a nurturing mom to this life I have created. I'm not ready to do that, so I will kill the unborn child instead. Abortion = Convenience Objective truth... not my opinion.

Woman's life would be changed too much = having and raising this child will impact my daily schedule and where my focus and energy are directed. It will change my world from top top bottom. I don't want to change my life, so I will instead end the life of that child which would otherwise change it. Abortion = Convenience Objective truth... not my opinion.

Problems with relationship; unmarried = My boyfriend is going to hate/leave me if I have a baby and he is forced to man up and pay child support; or I cannot do this alone as a single mother. Since I am not married and my baby's father is a worthless piece of crap, I will kill the life we have created to avoid the struggles that come from single motherhood.  Abortion = Convenience Objective truth... not my opinion.

Too young; not mature enough = I am not old enough or experienced enough to raise a child myself. I might actually have to grow up and take responsibility for my actions. It would be much easier if I just kill this life I've created instead. Abortion = Convenience Objective truth... not my opinion.

Children are grown; woman has all she wants = I thought I was completely done with dirty diapers, potty training, school programs, sassy teenagers, etc. It's my turn to be the center of my universe again. This baby I've created is going to ruin that plan.  Abortion = Convenience Objective truth... not my opinion.

Unborn child has possible health problems = I don't want a child that isn't perfect or is more difficult to take care of than a 'normal' child without special needs or one that might die anyway. Instead of the unconditional love that I will get from a sick or special needs child, my focus is on the pain or embarrassment that I will suffer as a result of this imperfect child and I should kill it now rather than wait to see what blessings he or she might bring into my life.  Abortion = Convenience Objective truth... not my opinion.

The last two categories: Woman has health problems and Pregnancy caused by rape, incest I am not going to classify as convenience arguments - although depending on the specific circumstances they still could be.

I have known women who have been in each one of these possible situations and have chosen the inconvenience of having a baby over the convenience of killing a baby. I have also known women who have been on the other side and had to make a really difficult and heart wrenching decision to terminate a pregnancy. I have compassion and love for those women (and their deceased babies) and the truly awful decisions they faced. To anyone in this forum who has been in that horrible position, you have my sympathy and support, even if you feel like I am lashing out at you. It is my belief that you can be forgiven for that decision just like any other sin can be forgiven... but that doesn't make the next convenience killing of an unborn child right or okay.

I stand by my earlier point. The vast majority of abortions are performed for convenience sake. My male gender or @paints strong opposing viewpoint does not change that fact.

Women and young girls are both burdened and blessed with the responsibility of being the child-bearers. It absolutely sucks when they are scared and alone in facing that situation and the young men who have a hand in the life creation should also have something at stake. Thankfully, in many circumstances, the fathers do step up and take responsibility. Sadly, in many other cases - they show their true colors and skate away free.
This does not change the fact that a young innocent beautiful little boy or girl is just beginning to start a life journey and deserves a chance to make something special happen on that journey.

When the start of that little one's big journey is seen as nothing more than an inconvenience to mom it makes me cry inside.

This is the best post on the topic I've ever seen. Thank You.

[Legslangevan]

Okay - well I didn't expect to change your mind anyway, but hopefully gave you something to think about.

As a woman who has gone through 2 life-threatening pregnancies and several miscarriages,  I have thought it through extensively.  Up close and personal.

Hi Paints.First off i am sorry you had those experiences.

Drs are NOT always right.We all have seen they can be wrong and i have seen a few malpractices in our family over the yrs.

May i ask were the 2 pregnancies aborted?

In Gods eyes if a woman is told she must choose between her and the child the matter lies with your decision.This isnt a matter of convenience as others have argued here.Ones conscience would come into play as well.

I know Jesus said the greatest love one can have for someone is to give their life.I am sure if faced with that many may find it difficult and i guess thats why we get 2nd opinions eh?

[UGetPaid]

In Gods eyes if a woman is told she must choose between her and the child the matter lies with your decision.This isnt a matter of convenience as others have argued here.Ones conscience would come into play as well.

When a mother's life is legitimately at stake, it is not an abortion out of convenience - which was never anyone's argument in this thread that I saw.

[Legslangevan]

In Gods eyes if a woman is told she must choose between her and the child the matter lies with your decision.This isnt a matter of convenience as others have argued here.Ones conscience would come into play as well.

When a mother's life is legitimately at stake, it is not an abortion out of convenience - which was never anyone's argument in this thread that I saw.

You misunderstood me.Convenience as in let me worry about it later,i can always have an abortion.

[UGetPaid]

You misunderstood me.Convenience as in let me worry about it later,i can always have an abortion.

I think I see where I misread your comment

This isnt a matter of convenience as others have argued here.

I thought you were saying something different.

[Legslangevan]

You misunderstood me.Convenience as in let me worry about it later,i can always have an abortion.

I think I see where I misread your comment

This isnt a matter of convenience as others have argued here.

I thought you were saying something different.

No prob keeping me honest U......even when i proof read posts LaLa land sometimes is round the corner.

I tried to explain Drs may say its either you or the baby.And i backed it with its entirely up to mom to decide.And i said Drs arent always right.2nd opinion maybe needed.Maybe a life and death situation does exist.

But convenience is another thing.The desire of the flesh caused this to happen and they werent worried about it to start.2 different cases.

[paints]

The faulty logic comes in when any person other than the woman who is pregnant insists that she must stay pregnant.
Not your body, not your business.

Again, you don't seem to be getting the point that slaughtering an unborn life over convenience is what we're talking about. It's not a personal choice to allow murder, because that body is in the womb. It's still a life being taken. 

If the uterus is not in YOUR body, you have NO say.
 
When the life that you can see-the woman-matters less to you than the potential life you can't, your opinion counts for less than nothing.

[paints]

Okay - well I didn't expect to change your mind anyway, but hopefully gave you something to think about.

As a woman who has gone through 2 life-threatening pregnancies and several miscarriages,  I have thought it through extensively.  Up close and personal.

Hi Paints.First off i am sorry you had those experiences.

Drs are NOT always right.We all have seen they can be wrong and i have seen a few malpractices in our family over the yrs.

May i ask were the 2 pregnancies aborted?

In Gods eyes if a woman is told she must choose between her and the child the matter lies with your decision.This isnt a matter of convenience as others have argued here.Ones conscience would come into play as well.

I know Jesus said the greatest love one can have for someone is to give their life.I am sure if faced with that many may find it difficult and i guess thats why we get 2nd opinions eh?

Neither were aborted, though the choice was always there if it became necessary.  I thank God that my doctor saw me as a whole human being rather than a walking incubator. 

God gave women the responsibility of bearing children.  He doesn't require us to die in order to do so.

[Legslangevan]

Okay - well I didn't expect to change your mind anyway, but hopefully gave you something to think about.

As a woman who has gone through 2 life-threatening pregnancies and several miscarriages,  I have thought it through extensively.  Up close and personal.

Hi Paints.First off i am sorry you had those experiences.

Drs are NOT always right.We all have seen they can be wrong and i have seen a few malpractices in our family over the yrs.

May i ask were the 2 pregnancies aborted?

In Gods eyes if a woman is told she must choose between her and the child the matter lies with your decision.This isnt a matter of convenience as others have argued here.Ones conscience would come into play as well.

I know Jesus said the greatest love one can have for someone is to give their life.I am sure if faced with that many may find it difficult and i guess thats why we get 2nd opinions eh?

Neither were aborted, though the choice was always there if it became necessary.  I thank God that my doctor saw me as a whole human being rather than a walking incubator. 

God gave women the responsibility of bearing children.  He doesn't require us to die in order to do so.

I am glad it worked out that way.

Im sticking to my guns how God views it and as i explained to UG.I am glad you had a good Dr.There are 2 human lives involved here <as long as twins arent involved>....Life is precious in Gods eyes period for ALL.

[UGetPaid]

When the life that you can see-the woman-matters less to you than the potential life you can't, your opinion counts for less than nothing.

Neither were aborted, though the choice was always there if it became necessary.  I thank God that my doctor saw me as a whole human being rather than a walking incubator. 

God gave women the responsibility of bearing children.  He doesn't require us to die in order to do so.

For what it's worth (and at the risk of getting your ire up again - which is not my intention), just to be clear - a mother's health being at risk is a much different issue than when pregnancy causes a financial crisis or having a baby will disrupt the mother's lifestyle or impose too big of a responsibility.


I know that your quotes above were directed at other thread comments not directly to me and I understand that I have no right to an opinion, but did you not get that point from my prior posts?  If so, I apparently need to do a better job of expressing myself.


The point I am trying to make here is that both lives matter. The mother's life does not matter any less and in many cases matters more - but when we are only talking about the mother's inconvenience then that DOES matter less than the baby's life.


In cases where there is no threat to the woman's health, the baby's life should be protected. In situations where the mother's health is at risk - medical treatment should be given to save the mother. If that can be done while saving the child also - that should be considered. (This is not a doctor's forced incubation, but counseling and options and informed consent). If termination of the pregnancy is the only way to save the mother I see nothing wrong with that choice.


You are absolutely 100% correct when you say that God doesn't require women to die in order to bear children.  I have no qualms about giving full agreement with that statement. In some cases that does unfortunately happen. But the flip side of your statement is also true.  God also doesn't require or intend that innocent babies die in order for their mothers to live a more comfortable and less stressed life which the inconvenient pregnancy would bring about as a result if brought to term. I don't suppose I could get your agreement on that opinion?

[JediJohnnie]

The faulty logic comes in when any person other than the woman who is pregnant insists that she must stay pregnant.
Not your body, not your business.

Again, you don't seem to be getting the point that slaughtering an unborn life over convenience is what we're talking about. It's not a personal choice to allow murder, because that body is in the womb. It's still a life being taken. 

 
When the life that you can see-the woman-matters less to you than the potential life you can't, your opinion counts for less than nothing.

Are you being purposely obtuse? We've been talking about Abortion ON DEMAND. Not when the woman's life is at stake.

A human life is still at stake either way, but don't act like we haven't been clearly defining terms here.

[JediJohnnie]

The faulty logic comes in when any person other than the woman who is pregnant insists that she must stay pregnant.
Not your body, not your business.

Again, you don't seem to be getting the point that slaughtering an unborn life over convenience is what we're talking about. It's not a personal choice to allow murder, because that body is in the womb. It's still a life being taken. 

If the uterus is not in YOUR body, you have NO say.
 

So basically, by your logic Slavery wasn't a human rights issue either.

"Those slaves are not in YOUR plantation, you have no say."

It sounds pretty much like what you're saying to me.

[paints]

When the life that you can see-the woman-matters less to you than the potential life you can't, your opinion counts for less than nothing.

Neither were aborted, though the choice was always there if it became necessary.  I thank God that my doctor saw me as a whole human being rather than a walking incubator. 

God gave women the responsibility of bearing children.  He doesn't require us to die in order to do so.

For what it's worth (and at the risk of getting your ire up again - which is not my intention), just to be clear - a mother's health being at risk is a much different issue than when pregnancy causes a financial crisis or having a baby will disrupt the mother's lifestyle or impose too big of a responsibility.


I know that your quotes above were directed at other thread comments not directly to me and I understand that I have no right to an opinion, but did you not get that point from my prior posts?  If so, I apparently need to do a better job of expressing myself.


The point I am trying to make here is that both lives matter. The mother's life does not matter any less and in many cases matters more - but when we are only talking about the mother's inconvenience then that DOES matter less than the baby's life.


In cases where there is no threat to the woman's health, the baby's life should be protected. In situations where the mother's health is at risk - medical treatment should be given to save the mother. If that can be done while saving the child also - that should be considered. (This is not a doctor's forced incubation, but counseling and options and informed consent). If termination of the pregnancy is the only way to save the mother I see nothing wrong with that choice.


You are absolutely 100% correct when you say that God doesn't require women to die in order to bear children.  I have no qualms about giving full agreement with that statement. In some cases that does unfortunately happen. But the flip side of your statement is also true.  God also doesn't require or intend that innocent babies die in order for their mothers to live a more comfortable and less stressed life which the inconvenient pregnancy would bring about as a result if brought to term. I don't suppose I could get your agreement on that opinion?

What you call "inconvenient pregnancy" can mean life or death. 
Last winter, a homeless woman and her newborn baby froze to death on a park bench. 
Should she not have been able to abort, before both lives were lost?

If the woman has no value, how much do we really care about her unborn child?