Obama care? Yes? No? Why?

[ajdajd93]

Here you can post your opinion on whether you agree or disagree with Obama's new Health care plan.  Please back up all of your arguments with FACTS not just ideology.

[leftiness]

Perfect. I'm getting my fill of political argument and I'll eventually get paid $3 for it.

The main problem with Obama's Health Care? It's socialist. I'm a professed capitalist. I hope that's OK with everybody.

Really, you could just run any Google search that references Obama's Health Care, and it will likely bring up all sorts of socialist aspects of it. However, here's a few to get you started.

• "What's in the health care bill? bsimmons"
• "Little gems from the Health Care Bill"
• "What's really in Obama's Health Care Bill - A Plain English Translation"

However, to make this post have more of a point than directing you to other sources, I'll list a few of my favorite parts.

• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.

Look into it more. It talks about all sorts of taxes imposed on those who don't take the Government Health Care... Talks about helping you make end-of-life decisions, which basically means "You're a burden. We'll be perfectly OK if you would die. Here's how we'll help." ... It covers how doctor's wages will be fixed... How you won't get to pick your own doctor...

And the funniest thing is that it's 2000 pages long, yet he wanted to push it through in three weeks. That wasn't even enough time to read it. That reminds me of his Stimulus Package, with all of its pork, that he insisted be passed immediately.

Really, though, it all comes down to socialism.

[eSineM]

Here you can post your opinion on whether you agree or disagree with Obama's new Health care plan.  Please back up all of your arguments with FACTS not just ideology.

I disagree for a few reasons, but the quickest that come to mind is:

1) The healthcare we have is not failing because its not provided, its failing because the healthcare itself is bad, providing EVERYONE with bad healthcare solves nothing...

2) Most GOOD care like vitamins, nutrients, good diet, acupuncture/acupressure, chiropractic, homeopathy, Chinese medicine,  is NOT covered... Only mainstream 'pill for every ill' healthcare is covered, which lead to further problems, cover the symptoms and do not cure the cause.

3) Other countries have done this and failed, so history shows, in fact Canada just announced this year about how much their system is failing because they cannot afford it and are going in deeper debt

4) If I want to have good care, as mentioned in #2 I will have to pay for it myself, but even worse, I will still pay into the socialized healthcare by force, so Ill have double the medical bills... This means those already being treated and paying for it themselves, will now pay more.

5) The medical industry currently is so out of hand, it is not to be trusted. If you look into the number of deaths related to accidents by doctors and hospitals, going to the hospital is almost as risky as visiting IRAQ. Psych drugs are unsafe and over-prescribed, vaccines are being pushed through manipulation and fear, and all this stuff untested using children and public as guinea pigs... then they just recall the drug a few years later after its finally deemed unsafe and has left tragedy in thousands of families lives, just for the same pattern to continue.

6) I do not feel that the government should play the role of my mother and father and take my money and decide how I use it... if I spend my money, have no health coverage and am irresponsible... thats my fault right? Shoudl the government be blamed for not stealing my money before I had a chance to be irresponsible? Those who want healthcare and want to pay into it, can do so through any number of private organizations, healthcare companies etc. Most jobs even provide a level of insurance, specifically any that are salary positions.. Insurance is a big scam, and always has been...

7) MANY MANY studies have shown that insurance and the money you have, has a huge effect on what you are prescribed... when you have specific insurance, the doctor wil prescribe things he wouldnt otherwise due to the money that can be made... they will charge more for visits, and this creates a problem for those willing to pay on their own.. they must pay the same type of rates the insurance company pays.. and the insurance company pretty much just floods them with money and gets HUGE deals off of the large number of patients... buying in bulk basically.... while the regular citizen now gets larger and larger bills to pay for his own, soon dependent on the health care system which is overinflated as the medical industry and doctors drain the accounts of the government, which then is refilled by our taxes... so it becomes an endless game of prices going up with no ceiling, and the healthcare industry makes a killing literally... in fact last I checked the healthcare industry was the most money making business other than oil, in terms of profits etc. They make more money off of prescriptions, false diagnosius, expensive lab tests etc. than most companies making plastics or selling fuel which is used for EVERYTHING... Its a huge scam, and REAL medical reform should be on the industry, not on how to afford the outrageous prices... reduce the prices, dont just pay into it more and more with government aid... this is no solution...

The patriot act was also rushed through, as is pretty much every other shady bill... with giant decisions like national health care, 1st of all, this does not align with the Constitution and a free society in ANY way... but even if it DID, and it was a GREAT idea, it is one that needs to be thought about and analysed by professionals on all sides, and trial runs, tests, multiple OPTIONS, not just "take it or leave it"... when I was in highschool I had to create a rough draft and multiple versions before a final.... these guys fcreate a 2000 page document without revisions, and force people congress to vote without even reading it.. Not to mention Congress arent exactly experts in the medical and economic field... a 2000 page document may not be very helpful even if they read it... its funny the entire constitution is so small and covers everything, and these crooks create 2000 page documents of ambiguity so they can abuse and manipulate the laws anyway they want in the future by just twisting the legal terms that are a plenty... 

What people don't get is... the medical industry is not in the business of making people well... they want people sick, that's where they get money.. now they will cover your symptoms with some dangerous chemicals to make you temporarily feel better... but they wont be prescribing you vitamin C and D for your problems unless your lucky to have a doctor who not only has a conscious, but took it upon himself to learn more, as medical school doesn't teach things they dont need you to know... like how to cure illnesses, instead they teach how to recognize symptoms and treat with drugs which hurt the body... The medical industry and big pharma has been spending a fortune on the campaign for healthcare, they are the main supporters. This alone should get even the most ignorant person questioning... why would the medical industry be so interested in us being well? They aren't.. they are interested in you going to the doctor MORE OFTEN for every little thing or even nothing, and the government will supposedly foot the bill (aka you and me).

you should check out some of these films for more info:
Generation RX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xehHwkPpevk

Big Bucks Big Pharma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptk7iBDaXkE

Selling Sickness
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=150012977198627882 - Monopoly Medicine (A great talk with the 'health ranger' Mike Adams)

or just download these full dvd's which are great:
http://tracker.conspiracycentral.net/torrents-details.php?id=6456
http://tracker.conspiracycentral.net/torrents-details.php?id=6107

[mamie520]

NO OBAMA REFORM!!! I guess the major issues I have with the plan is no choices in your basic healthcare decisions & I hope some dont take this the wrong way but I am not a fan of illegal immigrants still continuing to live off my tax dollars. 

[liljp617]

There should be a public option and there are a number of reforms necessary to bring health care costs down across the board (namely I should be able to buy my health care from Japan if I desire to).  I don't agree with much of what is being proposed in the current reform beyond the general idea of offering a public option.


One thing that I want to be attained more than a public option is an end to this ridiculous level of hysteria at the slightest mention of the word "socialism."  We get it; the mass propaganda spread during the Cold War is still having its effects.  The USSR doesn't exist anymore.  Big bad, evil communism isn't on the spread.  Relax.

Everybody ALWAYS focuses on Canada or Britain.  Nobody ever mentions France or Japan in the media or in their arguments against a public option.  We don't have to base our public option on Canada's or Britain's, just so you all know

France and Japan both spend less per capita (the US spends about double per capita) and a lesser percentage of their GDP on health care (the US spends double a percentage their GDP in comparison).  

Both France and Japan are consistently ranked above the US in terms of quality.  In 2001, France was ranked 1st by the WHO because of its universal coverage, responsive health care providers, patient and provider freedoms, and the health and longevity of the country's population.  The US ranked 37th.

It takes 2-4 weeks to get an MRI in the US; it takes 2 days in Japan.  There are no waiting lists in France and patients don't have to seek pre-authorizations.

[Falconer02]

One thing that I want to be attained more than a public option is an end to this ridiculous level of hysteria at the slightest mention of the word "socialism."  We get it; the mass propaganda spread during the Cold War is still having its effects.  The USSR doesn't exist anymore.  Big bad, evil communism isn't on the spread.  Relax.

Very true. Everyone read this carefully because I imagine most people are thinking of posting something with communism or socialism in their text. Stop watching Fox News!

[eSineM]

We don't have to base our public option on Canada's, just so you all know

This is something that was mainly boasted by Obama and the'adminstration' when talking about the pro's of the plan... now that Canada has announced its not doing so well with the program, they dont want to reference it as much...

One thing that I want to be attained more than a public option is an end to this ridiculous level of hysteria at the slightest mention of the word "socialism." We get it; the mass propaganda spread during the Cold War is still having its effects. The USSR doesn't exist anymore. Big bad, evil communism isn't on the spread. Relax

Your kidding right? China is one of the most powerful countries in the world, we just held the Olympics in a communist country... and as of last week they are now going to raise the communist China flag at the whitehouse to show support for this communism... Curious, whats your take on the video of Obama's main campain headquarters that had a communist che gueverra flag on the wall? xD... kinda odd, just curious your opinion...

Communism, fascism, socialism, all the isms you mention really dont matter... what it comes down to is the fact that 'socialism' is something that does not align with the US... thats what makes the US different... When you start to allow "just a little socialism here and there" then there becomes big problems. It matters whats best for the people, and the healthcare plan so far announced is not it... Im not against people being provided for if needed, however I am against FORCING PEOPLE TO DONATE to it, and FORCING PROGRAMS of any kind... Just as mentioned Canada does not have to be references and Japan etc are other examples, it shows that there are many models and ideas possible... the best healthcare we ever had in this country was when the local community was providing the programs and help for each other. Doctors donated services or offered discounts to the needy, and this is pretty much what you expect right?

Remember when doctors used to become doctors so they could help people? Giving a few needy people a discount, is not going to effect them... but the problem is the PRICES, so yes it DOES effect them now days... with the skyrocketing price of everything in the medical field, and all the 'protocols' that forbid these types of charity and care, its a problem no matter WHO pays for it... The system is broken and needs reform, the problem is the prices and the entire system that can be corrected if the big pharma and medical industry wasnt left with free reign to do anything they want, even if it kills patients.. without any sort of retaliation or accountability... Fix this, and people could afford care, and doctors could afford to give healthy cures instead of pharmaceuticals the industry would go back towards looking at the entire health of an individual to fix it, rather than waiting for a problem and treating a symptom... now days people cannot even afford a checkup! Fix this and we have a better system.... they are only treating the symptom when they decide to pay the bill for every american with our tax money... it just allows them to get away with overcharging and ripping us off endlessly, now they will do it transparently as we do not get a bill and instead taxes are raised over time... This does nothing to fix the problem, it just feeds the monster with more money and condones the bad practice... They need SERIOUS MEDICAL REFORM, or else nothing will fix the problem, and we will just be forced to pay more and more money, then more programs for other areas, and soon 75% of your life work is given to the government....

Interesting statistics from this year: "Americans Had to Work from January 1 to August 12 This Year Just to Cover Cost of Government" thats the longest ever.... more and more we become slaves working for the government... most dont notice since they think "its just tax" but in reality, they stole over half your years work of productivity to pay for these "programs"... this is BEFORE the healthcare. If they took out less taxes of your check, and every check had an extra 200$+ sitting there, and medical charges werent obscene and instead JUSTIFIED, then you would gladly pay for your own medical bills Im sure... however they are working the other direction... less money, less freedom, more work...
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/52453

[ajdajd93]

Wow I'm surprised that everyone gave such detailed arguments.  I agree with most of you.  The price of health care does need to go down, but Obama Care won't do that.  If anything it will raise our taxes and we'll end up paying more for LESS coverage. The Department of Finance said that Obama's statements were flat out wrong.  They said that there is NO way that anyone could make a profit off any of this and that we would acquire more dept.

 Also thanks for mentioning Japan and France I had no idea that there health care was that good.

[liljp617]

We don't have to base our public option on Canada's, just so you all know

This is something that was mainly boasted by Obama and the'adminstration' when talking about the pro's of the plan... now that Canada has announced its not doing so well with the program, they dont want to reference it as much...

I don't really care what the Obama Administration "boasts about."  The facts remain regardless of anything a few people at the top "boast about."

A number of countries have universal health care correctly (France and Japan for instance).  A number of those countries have lesser costs across the board compared to the US.  A number of those countries have better or just as good health care quality.  A number of those countries have a higher standard of living. The speed is hardly different from the US's, sometimes much faster.  Doctors are happy.  Patients are happy.

There are some countries running universal health care systems who do not have it right (Canada and Britain for instance), which isn't a surprise.  It's not something you're probably going to get right on the first piece of legislation.  It is most definitely a drastic change in the health care industry, economically, and socially.  It takes time, as you say, to run trial periods, see what works and what doesn't work.

Your kidding right? China is one of the most powerful countries in the world, we just held the Olympics in a communist country... and as of last week they are now going to raise the communist China flag at the whitehouse to show support for this communism... Curious, whats your take on the video of Obama's main campain headquarters that had a communist che gueverra flag on the wall? xD... kinda odd, just curious your opinion...

What does China being powerful have to do with what I said at all?  China does not have a foreign policy to spread communism throughout the globe as the USSR did.  They're not on this massive propaganda-filled campaign of imperialism and spreading communism to every country near them.

Never mind the fact that the Chinese government has gradually implemented many free market tools into their economy over the years and have turned more and more (albeit they're still far from what the western world has) toward the 'invisible hand' method.  And most of this because the US has kept good terms with the Chinese government and has persuaded them.

As I said, communism is not on the spread.  This is absolutely nothing like the Cold War era.

I'd like a link to the news report about raising the communist flag at the White House (there is also a difference between raising the Chinese flag and raising the famous "Hammer/Sickle flag").  Can't comment until I see what exactly you're spreading this information from.  *I don't want a link to a Conservative blog by the way unless that particular blog has a link to a legitimate news story its based on*

As for the flag in the headquarters:  Plain and simple, I don't care.  People can put up whatever flag they want.  I don't like the Confederate Flag on people's trucks, on government buildings in the south, or anywhere.  I'm not going to try to remove people's rights to have them if they desire to.  Either way, it really doesn't say anything about Obama himself.  If you want to bring it up, insult the small fraction of his supporters (the people who actually put the flag up in the headquarters).  *I would like direction to the source you're using to get this information as well.*

Communism, fascism, socialism, all the isms you mention really dont matter... what it comes down to is the fact that 'socialism' is something that does not align with the US... thats what makes the US different... When you start to allow "just a little socialism here and there" then there becomes big problems.

So let me try to make this clear between the both of us.  

Other nations are capable of setting up government run universal health care systems that cost much less in every respect and retain quality, correct?  If they can do it, the US is capable as well, wouldn't you say?  We've been on the cutting edge of almost everything for decades.  So we can cut the costs, we can cover universally, and we can increase our standard of living in general?  People (an estimated 25-45% of the work force) are no longer stuck in jobs they despise just so they can have health care.  40 million+ people can now go see a doctor or get an MRI when they're ill.  

And you're opposed to this because of the word "socialism" and because the US is so called "different."  Why is being "different" admirable when you're doing something incorrectly and other nations are doing much better than you?

It matters whats best for the people, and the healthcare plan so far announced is not it...

Precisely why I said reform is necessary, but I don't agree with much of what is going into the current legislation.

Im not against people being provided for if needed, however I am against FORCING PEOPLE TO DONATE to it, and FORCING PROGRAMS of any kind... Just as mentioned Canada does not have to be references and Japan etc are other examples, it shows that there are many models and ideas possible...

It is needed; that would be the point.  Millions of people need to be able to see a doctor if a problem arises.  Millions of people need to be unlocked from their jobs.  Patients need to be treated, not pushed out the door because of private insurance companies.  People need to be allowed to purchase their health care from Ohio or Australia if they want -- I don't see many "free market enthusiasts" advocating this. The list goes on.

Every government program is "forced."  Road maintenance, fire departments, education, national defense, everything is "forced."  You don't seem to be opposed to a public health care option; you seem to be opposed to government taxation in general.  And to that, the only available response is "get used to it or move."  That literally is the only thing that can be said.

the best healthcare we ever had in this country was when the local community was providing the programs and help for each other. Doctors donated services or offered discounts to the needy, and this is pretty much what you expect right?

This is impractical in today's world.

Remember when doctors used to become doctors so they could help people?

No, I don't.


On a side note, I don't want to sound rude at all, but could you make an effort to use some basic grammar/punctuation mechanics.  Everything is much harder to read and grasp fully when there's 15 periods in two sentences.

[southernhorizons]

I disagree with Obama's healthcare plan for several reasons. First, nationalized health care is a big part of socialism. Second, everything the government gets its hands on is run very inefficiently, and they have already proved that they would fail at healthcare by doing so badly with the VA system. Third, I don't want the government making choices about my health for me. Fourth, someone will end up paying for all this free healthcare, so it certainly won't be free for all the taxpayers who will be forced to pay much higher taxes. The only ones it will benefit are the lowlifes who live off the system, illegals, and others who don't pay taxes but will reap all the benefits off hard working Americans.

[eSineM]

What does China being powerful have to do with what I said at all?  China does not have a foreign policy to spread communism throughout the globe as the USSR did.  They're not on this massive propaganda-filled campaign of imperialism and spreading communism to every country near them.

Ever heard of Taiwan? China pretends it don't exist... they even shut down i-tunes because some of the Olympic players bought an album about 'free Tibet' in protest... then they shutdown i-tunes so they couldn't sell this album and others in China... Then there was a guy kicked out... Just because China hasn't started a war and have troops on everyone's property (although they have some) doesn't mean they are not trying to spread communism. There is no way be democratic without bringing democratic decisions to the countries that deal with you really.. and there is no way to be communist and supply all your goods to every other country through communist methods like slave labor, and not be spreading your communism to others... we are embracing their communism when we condone the slavery... They aren't as bad as USSR no... but that don't make them the good guy

News straight from The People's Republic of  Communist China:
 http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-07/13/content_8422505.htm

That's not a conservative blog right? xD

If you want to bring it up, insult the small fraction of his supporters (the people who actually put the flag up in the headquarters).  I would like direction to the source you're using to get this information as well.

It's his headquarters, not some fringe supporters....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCja99KpjWU

Other nations are capable of setting up government run universal health care systems that cost much less in every respect and retain quality, correct?  If they can do it, the US is capable as well, wouldn't you say?

Yep just like they could end our dependency on oil... both are not making much progress..

And you're opposed to this because of the word "socialism" and because the US is so called "different."  Why is being "different" admirable when you're doing something incorrectly and other nations are doing much better than you?

You are bringing in straw man weak *bleep* arguments here... I'm not opposed to something because its different or has the word socialism in it? Your playing word games now.... I gave plenty of actual reasons, no just a blanket word "its socialist"... so get off it... haha... that kind of fake argument doesn't work when your talking to someone who has facts and actual reasons as I listed... use that on Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly or whatever.

Its like those people who say that if you didn't vote for obama its because you fear change.... not mentioning that change isn't always for the better... I want lots of change, not my dollars value turning into change. xD

There are many ways of allowing anyone to see the doctor, it was done before, and it can be done again... People act as if this situation we are in has been this way since the US was born.... things worked quite well before many of these 'changes' that happened years ago... new changes don't mean much, the problem is Obama's care doesn't change anything.. it just allows people to pay for something that is broken.... its like telling the world you will provide them with all the tires they need for their car for free... but they are all flat tires.... It still wont get you anywhere, but you will have the care you want...

Maybe try cleaning up all the nails on the road first! heh

Every government program is "forced."  Road maintenance, fire departments, education, national defense, everything is "forced."  You don't seem to be opposed to a public health care option; you seem to be opposed to government taxation in general.  And to that, the only available response is "get used to it or move."  That literally is the only thing that can be said.

This is the farthest from the truth... first of all road maintenance , fire dept, etc. is all STATE OWNED>... this is paid for by STATE TAXES... and it is not national at all... this is comparing apples to planets....  I am not opposed to all forms of tax, there are HUNDRED AND HUNDREDS OF TAXES! Are you telling me that I am against all taxes because I don't want a broken Healthcare system forced on me? hahah you have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! This is the most low of political tactics... trying to put me in the category as "against all taxes, fears change, and is afraid of the term socialism" as the reasons I don't like Obama? You just invested all those things ignoring the actual facts... you should actually check if Bill O needs some writers, you would be perfect! hehe That's the ultimate of spin... you turn my opinions into an attack... and here is my favorite redneck, rightwing, often racist statement that you can hear O'Reilly yell once a week

get used to it or move.

Get used to it or move? wow you really ARE into communism! Where I was born in a free country, its more like "if you don't like it, work to make it better" or "if you don't like it, speak your mind" or "if you don't like it, become a politician and do something about it!"

But your statement is "if you don't like it, move out of the country" hahah

I can see why you have no problem with China's red flag being raised now... You probably do not recognize Taiwan as a country either so its ok... and you think its fine for your presidents main campaign office to have a revolutionary communist flag hanging up in the main office.... I see. but that's your right , because your in America... I wont stoop to the level to say "If you support a communist flag, you should move out of the country", because that's not what America is about...  I can read the Constitution and understand it... 


http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/rg_20090727_6650.php

"Second-quarter lobbying reports show that 22 groups related to health care spent at least $1 million on lobbying in a three-month period, and several spent considerably more.  Top players include the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA), which reported $6.2 million in lobbying expenditures; Pfizer, which laid out $5.6 million; and the American Medical Association, which spent $3.9 million. That landed all three in the top 10 of lobbying spenders in the second quarter, according to a tally by NationalJournal.com's Under The Influence blog."

These companies wont be spending this kind of money unless there is something BIG for them... and that is obvious... they will have a HUGE paying customer with our taxes! Free to diagnose or treat in the most expensive way possible without problems with billing or healthcare agencies. A direct funnel for our tax money into big pharma The good thing is, even with all this money, the majority of Americans are smart enough to know the TRUE costs of these programs...

These taxes don't go away, often even after the progrma fails... the taxes continue.... Look at the Spanish american war taxes...  it was a temporary tax to help fund the war... war is over... and how long did the tax continue? 108 years...  it ended up on the phone bill of all places! it was finally ended in 2006... 108 years after the war ended... some temporary tax right? Just another example of how these e-programs are impossible to LEAVE once they start... you basically just put all the debt off, longer and longer, and your kids pay higher taxes etc, and have less benefits as a result... so then they phase out the program.. the taxes remain.. the program no longer exists... back to a worse situation, less money, more taxes, less programs... this is a reoccurring theme, even Social Security which is a GIANT CHUNK OF ALL YOUR WORK TIME is running out so you will get nothing for it.... but hey, if you don't like it? leave right? hahahahahaha That's what the king used to say when he would rob the citizens of their savings...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/telecom/2006-05-25-phone-tax_x.htm

Remember when doctors used to become doctors so they could help people?
No, I don't.

That's your problem... you need to do some reading. It was VERY common for doctors to make house calls and often even help people for free even as recent as the 50's and 60's... if you want a good view, watch Ron Paul speak a bit, he has been a doctor since those times existed...

Everything is much harder to read and grasp fully when there's 15 periods in two sentences.

BTW A "…" is called an ellipsis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

...in my case its mostly always a pause in speech....

[eSineM]

Bump 

[arms1977]

I really do not know what to think of this healthcare reform. My biggest concern is where will the money come from to pay for it?

Obama claims that people who are among the hundreds of thousands who are currently insured, there will be nothing that you will have to change. He claims he will also make it illegal for insurance companies to deny coverage or drop your coverage due to illness or preexisting conditions. Also the caps on coverage will be eliminated.

For those without coverage they can shop for insurance in a competitive market and receive quality coverage. Those who still cannot afford the low cost coverage, tax breaks will be offered to help these people. How many tax breaks are these people going to get??? It is costing me a fortune for their tax breaks!!!

Businesses will be required to offer employees insurance coverage, except for small businesses, or face the consequences.

Well, in my household we have few illnesses. Allergies, which we treat with OTC medications, are two of the household members health problems. The third member is diabetic and has a thyroid condition. They have had these conditions for well over 14 years. When they lost their job because of the economy they lost their insurance. We now spend OVER $600 per month for medications we cannot afford, but must have in order to live. We NEVER got any COBRA information, and cannot get coverage now because of the diabetes and thyroid problem.

We make less than half of what we did last year but pay twice the amount for everyday living expenses. Although we make less, we are paying even more in taxes, thanks to the bailout. We cannot afford to pay all of these added taxes and hidden fees! Who is REALLY going to pay for this low cost insurance exchange???

[sanmikmor]

I won't use the "C" word or the "S" word or any of the other 'ism words. What concerns me most about all of this (Obamacare, stimulus, bailouts, etc) are the CZARS - I don't care who the president is or what color he is or what his political affiliation. If these Czars are making and shaping policies, laws etc that will affect ALL OF US then there needs to be a COMPLETE and public debate and most of all there needs to be accountability to the citizens of the United States.

Right now I am sick to death of all of them - there needs to be a giant broom to sweep ALL of them out of Congress. I have never before been for term limits - but I am now. These people may go to Congress with the best of intentions. The problem is once they get there they have to answer to the "powers that be" in order to do anything for their constituents - then they get bombarded by lobbyists and soon they tend to put their constituents last - unless it's time to start running again for re-election.

You can call it public option or government take-over or whatever you want. But whenever the government gets involved there are problems. Healthcare needs reform. But coming up with 1300 pages of legal-eze that very few have read all the way through and even fewer understand is not the way to reform it. Example: Obama said last night that there is nothing in there to cover illegal aliens. Okay, not in those words, BUT when someone signs up for the "public option" or whatever they are going to call it, they are not asked to verify their citizenship - AT ALL. So ANYONE can get it!

If they want to cut out a LOT of over-spending in Healthcare, one of the things they need to start with is Tort reform - cut out or cap the frivolous lawsuits. But that won't happen anytime soon because BOTH sides of the aisle are majorly in the pockets of the lawyers.

And as for waste, fraud and abuse, how about we start with cutting the waste, fraud and abuse going on in Congress? No more earmarks of any kind, no more inserting pet projects in at the last minute that many don't have the chance to find out about right before the vote, no more voting on bills that they haven't read, no more special Jet planes for Congress, no more laws and regulations that affect every tax payer EXCEPT if they happen to be a member of Congress! NO MORE! I could go on but it makes me sick just thinking about it.

And as for watching Fox News. I have been a devoted watcher of Fox News for several years now. However, I also watch CNN and MSNBC. Fox News by far IS more fair and balanced than the other news outletsl There is a reason there is a dial or button on your TV remote - if you don't like what is on - change the dial!

[eSineM]

But coming up with 1300 pages of legal-eze that very few have read all the way through and even fewer understand is not the way to reform it. Example: Obama said last night that there is nothing in there to cover illegal aliens. Okay, not in those words, BUT when someone signs up for the "public option" or whatever they are going to call it, they are not asked to verify their citizenship - AT ALL. So ANYONE can get it!

EXACTLY! And this either means Obama himself doesn't understand it or hasn't read it, OR he is being purposely deceptive. I would say considering Obama has speech writers and editors etc. like any other president, than this was carefully calculated and he said this to win over many people who do not want illegal immigrants taking our tax money.. I personally think this is one of the least of our worries, but its a very valid one. However you can see that Obama didn't "lie" he only "misled", but in reality illegal aliens are covered... why does he need to mislead and cover this, if he is so confident that the plan is good? Seems to me he could easily focus on the pro's and not need to mislead people if the plan was good.

..True fox news may be more fair and balanced than CNN etc. at times... but this is like comparing Charles Manson versus Jack the Ripper and trying to decide who is the nicer guy Both are corrupt,but I agree it seems that truth 'slips' in the FOX news more often because its less governed over so anchors can easily make mistakes, specifically late night am news when nobody watches, and they know it hehe. Either way I dont watch the news on tv too often, and if I do, I have no real preference, although people liek Lou Dobbs do come out on CNN more oftne...and more people I hate come out on other networks like Bill O and hannity and colmes... also CNN has more different news shows at all times which makes it easier to tune into.

I bet the percentage of BS is higher on fox only because they have much less news.. CNN has news all day, so lots of real stuff comes in and a bit of propaganda.. Faux bring it down to just 30 and 60 minute shows randomly places, but they still fit in the same amount of propaganda, so its probably more saturated in percentage.