Gay Marriage: Where do you stand?

[BJohnsonPP]

Mr Johnson and Falconer i wanna ask you 2 something before continuing this discussion.....

Both your views about God.Does he exist OR do you just dis-agree with his rules,counsel,laws etc?

I don't believe god/gods exist and have zero reason to believe. Whether a god exists or not, his laws are utterly repugnant.

And i will answer that last post what the apostles said at Act 5:29....

Obeying God as ruler NOT men!!

Your god lays out rules for slavery instead of just outright abolishing it, and, in the case of rape, he condones blaming and punishing the victim instead of just the rapist and the rapist alone. Mans laws are far superior to your god's. We get it wrong, but we can see that and change for the better and not stay stuck in some time warp. This is absolutely not the case for your god.

All sorts of tyrants say "obey me and no one else!!!" So what? You have to evaluate whether what you're obeying makes sense or not, is just or not. The fact that you are so readily willing to defend slavery and rape tells me, no, this does not make sense and is not just. What is wrong with you that you cannot see this? I'm not asking this to be antagonistic. I'm really not. I just seriously want to know what you're not getting.

[hitch0403]

I am not going to clutter the forum with explanations from The WatchTower online library.The scripture in Eccl 8:9 that man has dominated himself to his own injury should be enuff for honest hearted individuals to read the truth on the many issues in the world.

Briefly you bring up God condones slavery but didn't he hear the cries of Israel?

The gay issue is just 1 of many things in this world where people will decide for themselves whats good or bad and NOT care what God feels about it....that's if they even think he exists.

Again to those that need answers I suggest going to the Watchtower online library and punch in what you need to know about and get bibles view...if you are so inclinded to do so.I don't feel like shoveling crap against the tide with some here and again to those that want truth its there for you to seek and find as Jesus said.

[JediJohnnie]

I love the charge "God condones slavery". The whole book of Philemon is Paul begging his friend to treat his slave,not like a slave,but as a brother in Christ.lol And we Christians don't read the Bible!

[hitch0403]

JJ...you actually helped me write less by bring that up.....Remember the scripture that Jesus says to remove the straw from your eye first....well its obvious theres a few scarecrows here!!

They only wanna see what they wanna see.The command in Genesis to decide for yourself whats good and bad is quite prevalent in todays society!!

[Falconer02]

I love the charge "God condones slavery". The whole book of Philemon is Paul begging his friend to treat his slave,not like a slave,but as a brother in Christ.lol And we Christians don't read the Bible

I am aware of this, but the foundational argument is still glaring- slavery existed and was allowed to exist even though there are much more civil routes to take. Instead of challenging the moral condundrums of slavery, they just sprinkled slavery with some sugar. And this god condoned that behavior, which is despicable and can rationally be seen as malevolent/uncaring decisions by the writers.

The whole point that seems to constantly be ignored here is why the religious think they can say offensive things like "Homosexuality is a perversion" when, in the same area of the bible, it says slavery is all right along with a bunch of other questionable things. It's a cherry-picking fallacy.

They only wanna see what they wanna see.The command in Genesis to decide for yourself whats good and bad is quite prevalent in todays society!!

Isn't it strange that cultures that evolved without Judaism, Christianity, or Islam somehow had very similar basic moral laws in place? It's as if these people used common sense! Who would have thought?

[hitch0403]

Falconer....its the same thing...God allows gays to go on as he did slavery.....again doesn't the scripture "man dominating man to his own injury"mean anything.

Much wickedness prevails in this world.God allows wars etc......The bibles view of his allowance of this means nothing to you...He gets the blame for allowing it when mankind and Satans influence caused it.

He gives us rules and guides to avoid it but when man disobeys then u blame him.Read on in OT and see how Israel was punished for dis-obeying etc as well as other parts of bible.

You only wanna see what you wanna see.The world ISNT a mess today cos of the CREATOR!!

[BJohnsonPP]

I am not going to clutter the forum with explanations from The WatchTower online library.The scripture in Eccl 8:9 that man has dominated himself to his own injury should be enuff for honest hearted individuals to read the truth on the many issues in the world.

All there is is man and all we can do is attempt to get it right. Your gods prescriptions are in no way shape or form "right".

Briefly you bring up God condones slavery but didn't he hear the cries of Israel?

This is really your example? The time he killed crops, animals, and a bunch of kids that had nothing to do with this, to free, not all slaves, but just a particular group of slaves in a particular area? Really? He lays out how Israel can treat their foreign slaves and their Hebrew slaves, and this is your example of him not condoning slavery? Seriously? You're not joking?

The gay issue is just 1 of many things in this world where people will decide for themselves whats good or bad and NOT care what God feels about it....that's if they even think he exists.

They "gay issue" is in the same place as the slavery issue. Your god condemns one and supports the other. If you're going to condemn homosexuality because the bible says so, why don't you support slavery because the bible says so?

You're dodging this question for a reason and you know exactly what that reason is.

Again to those that need answers I suggest going to the Watchtower online library and punch in what you need to know about and get bibles view...if you are so inclinded to do so.I don't feel like shoveling crap against the tide with some here and again to those that want truth its there for you to seek and find as Jesus said.

We've read it already. Do you not understand this? We know the truth about it and it's disturbing. You're ducking and running because you absolutely know you can't reconcile what you want to believe with what's actually there. Not the rape, not the slavery, not the infanticide, none of it.

You're best example involves infanticide and JJ's example is about one slave. In neither of these examples does it say slavery should be abolished. Jesus goes on to tell slaves to obey their masters. You clearly only "wanna see what you wanna see".

[JediJohnnie]

Falconer doesn't want to admit it,(he begged that this not be brought up as I recall) but Slavery was treated as a necessary evil in those days.There was no welfare system.If you were in debt to your eyeballs,you were sold as an indentured servant until you could pay back your creditors.

I should point out,this was a far cry from the kind of slavery seen in America,which was based on race.The slavery of ancient times was based solely on economics.You couldn't pay,you worked it off (in most cases.)

[Falconer02]

Falconer doesn't want to admit it,(he begged that this not be brought up as I recall) but Slavery was treated as a necessary evil in those days.There was no welfare system.If you were in debt to your eyeballs,you were sold as an indentured servant until you could pay back your creditors.

When did I beg that this not be brought up? I said it was fallacious reasoning as I will explain-

The selling of humans is an immoral act. I agree with the necessary evil here since the ancient times were the epitome of barbaric behavior and there's nothing we can do about it now, but, again, you keep hopping around the point I'm trying to make- you take your wisdom from a book that talks about how to own slaves. Moreover, it talks about how far you can beat them down. Did no red flags come up in your mind when you read the 2 previous sentences? The moral way would be to speak of the abolishment of slavery, but (as far as I'm aware), it simply condones the act of slavery.

You can attempt to soften the concept of slavery all you want (whether it be race or economy-based), but it's still an immoral act from the start.

You only wanna see what you wanna see.The world ISNT a mess today cos of the CREATOR!!

Really? Tectonic plate shifts, asteroid strikes, natural desertification, airborne diseases, etc. those are all man-made messes? Please broaden your viewpoint.

[hitch0403]

You have read bible...LOL....my my what short memories.

Cursed is the ground on your account seems to slip your minds!!

So do you guys blame God for dropping bomb on Hiroshima and killing countless woman and children too??

You might as well if you blame him for slavery!!

Or if children get molested cos so called teachers of bible rape them...does God get blamed for that too?

Just remember Jesus said many would love the darkness and he also said "Get away from me you workers of lawlessness"...ones who claimed to teach truth but didnt teach nothing but mans doctrines!

[Falconer02]

Just remember Jesus said many would love the darkness and he also said "Get away from me you workers of lawlessness"...ones who claimed to teach truth but didnt teach nothing but mans doctrines

Don't you think it's ironic how the bible is a doctrine written by men?

So do you guys blame God for dropping bomb on Hiroshima and killing countless woman and children too?? You might as well if you blame him for slavery!!

If this god was real, I would. A good parental figure wouldn't stand by and allow such evils to happen. It's common sense. But we cannot share common ground on that notion because you have more fictional stories to back up and justify such immoral and uncaring behavior.

Until you can step into the realm of reality and have a rational debate on the morality of slavery, rape, and homosexuality, (I'm sorry to point out that the bible has so far been proven to be extremely irrational with these subjects) there's really no reason in going any further. And it's also a good thing that our society has evolved to a point where we can point out atrocious and unfair behavior caused by people who have opinions like your own.

[equipanes]

For me I am in Neutral because I mind my own business lol....I know that was there feeling to get married same sex. So, that's there problem to God. Because they're Old enough and they know what is  right what is wrong.

[mythociate]

So do you guys blame God for dropping bomb on Hiroshima and killing countless woman and children too??

You might as well if you blame him for slavery!!

Or if children get molested cos so called teachers of bible rape them...does God get blamed for that too?

Just remember Jesus said many would love the darkness and he also said "Get away from me you workers of lawlessness"...ones who claimed to teach truth but didnt teach nothing but mans doctrines!

That reminds me of the movie (from the comic-book) THE WATCHMEN, where a couple of 'superheroes' (SPOILER ALERT) ... stop all the nations from fighting each other by 'going rogue' & setting off some nuclear explosions to make the nations think they need to join forces against an enemy---killing millions to save billions more.

I guess that's why 'gay marriage' is an option for the individual (and the government is only considering it to maintain 'peace' between gays & straights): because they're going to 'get together' anyway ... we can either support them in their getting together or 'reject them from society' for their getting together.

[lvstephanie]

I live in the United States of America. I believe that our Constitution protects equal rights for EVERYONE in our country. That means that if a gay person cannot marry the person they love, but a straight person can, they are not equals. Therefore it is in direct violation of the constitution not to allow gays to marry.
Personally, I believe that each person should choose their path and that others do not have the right to decide what is right for anyone but themselves.

Although I agree with the sentiment behind this post, I disagree with saying that this is a violation of the constitution since technically it is treating homosexuals the same under the law as the law is written. If a homosexual male tried to get a marriage license with a female and was turned down because he was gay, then that would be a case of unequal protection under the law.

The issue is that you're talking about equality under the law (which is true), but then you term "marriage" as being between people in love instead of using its term under a more strict, legal definition. Under a more legal term, marriage is just a contract set up under the government for purposes of further clarifying other laws that use the term "marriage" in the legal sense. As such, the government can define what constitutes a legal marriage... And because this is just a legal definition, people don't have it as a "right"; rights are allowances that people innately have even without the constructs of a government. So you have a right to travel wherever you want on the public roads, but you do not have a right to a driver's license as the driver's license is just a government construct. Similarly, you have a right to the pursuit of happiness including the right to associate with whomever you want; however you do not have a right to a marriage license.

To put this in a different way, if the question was whether homosexuals should be allowed to date, be in love with each other, make love, co-habitate, etc. then this would definitely be an issue of equal protection under the law. This is why the Supreme Court struck down sodomy laws as they felt that how people chose to engage in sex (esp. in a private setting) is outside the purview of the government.

Now because most people use your definition of marriage as being some special union between people in love, it is very easy to see why so many people are talking about their right to marriage.... What they (and I suspect you) are actually saying is that they feel that homosexuals have a right to love whomever they want. And in this respect, that is true. That is why I feel that some of the marriage laws should be broadened to define marriage more along the lines of who a person wishes to live with regardless of sexual orientation.

[hitch0403]

Shove your constitution!!


Mark 10:6-12

New International Version (NIV)


6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”