The real actual totally 100% legitimate truth about prayer.

[Falconer02]

No one receives a "reward" for every situation they pray for and about.  I don't know where that comes from nor why you would think that. 

You brought it up with your bible verse- "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." . Perhaps I just misread what you meant.

You bring up Mario and The Matrix, however, those 2 aren't up for debate on being "God" and being worshiped, and have no comparison with God. Neither do Santa Claus and The Easter Bunny, etc.

Sure they do. They're all fictional. The Matrix even has some religious elements and god-like characters in it. When you can draw simple parallels from these things, they are alike.

Some children are encouraged to believe in them as children, and when older, are either told the truth or they figure it out.  It's sort of like a "magical" part of childhood, including fun and excitement of certain holidays.

You don't find it peculiar at all that parents dont do this with religious tales? "Santa Clause going around the world in 1 night? Ha! Proposterous! My god flooding the entire world? A talking serpent? Totally legit."

On the other hand, God is who is up for the debate with being real or not.  I've already mentioned there are reasons, testimonies, situations that happened, God's Word, historical situations, and more, that prove to some people that God is real and so they place their faith in Him.

But I've proven before that these are either flat-out false, inconclusive, anecdotal, cherry-picked, romanticized, or lies. Personally I don't care, but when people push them as truths and suddenly they're teaching creationism in science classes, the line has been breached.

but they shouldn't be intimidated or belittled for believing something they know or perceive to be the truth for them.

Except when they force it upon a free society as Sigimap has pointed out. Let's not forget (historically) the blood spilled in the name of your god either.

Some disbelievers tend to get over-zealous, as well, and attempt to coerce believers to give up believing in God, or some try to make believers appear schizo, delusional, or otherwise, for believing in God.  Yet, the Constitution protects both sides, and some people on both sides tend to forget this when coming down on others for their personal choice.

The fact is that it is delusional and sometime schizophrenic behavior. Heck, we've had schizo's on this forum before who believed in god and heard voices! This is a friendly debate. I'm not trying to take down the first amendment or anything-- that's ridiculous.

Why the big concern for others if they believe there is heaven or hell after death?

It's not a major concern. Ancient afterlife concepts are silly though. If it comforts them on their deathbed, I'm sure nobody has any issues with it. Besides, everyone goes to heaven besides those rotten serial killers. Or maybe it was those people who didn't accept Jesus? Or perhaps they needed to take more action with their beliefs to get to heaven? Etc. etc. etc.

then who is anyone else to try and tell them otherwise that there is nothing after death?

Who's saying that? Nobody knows what happens. Anyone who claims to know is ridiculously arrogant.

Believers shouldn't have to cower in fear and intimidation from others who don't agree with their choice of worshiping God.  And likewise, others who deny God exists, shouldn't have to cower because believers don't agree with their choice.

Correct, though it's unfortunate your beliefs have claimed so many lives and chained so many people for just those reasons.

In today's society, more people, on both sides of the issue, are tending to mind other peoples' business when it comes to an individual's personal choice of believing or disbelieving.

Yes, though I find it interesting that religion is slowly disappearing in 1st-world countries while this concept you speak of has been promoted in all of them.

[jcribb16]

You can believe in Jesus all you want. That is YOUR business. But when you want to govern the law of they land in which I live based on your fairy tale, then it becomes MY business.

I'm not quite sure to whom you are speaking, but be reassured on my behalf, that it is not my intention for my faith in God, with my "religion," to govern the law of the land.  I just want the Constitution upheld so that believers can worship freely, and those who do not choose or have religion, will have their freedom, too. 

False.  When you deny a woman the right to choose, or a couple from being married based solely on a book that also says a man lived to be 900 years old, then you are not keeping church and state separate.

I've not done anything of the kind, sir.  Not everyone does what you seem to think they do. 

Another thing, those issues are not all encompassed strictly through the "God" thing.  And people are free to feel about those issues whichever way they want - some may agree with you and some may not - it's personal preference and beliefs that people feel strongly about, whether for or against those social issues. 

[jcribb16]

No one receives a "reward" for every situation they pray for and about.  I don't know where that comes from nor why you would think that. 

You brought it up with your bible verse- "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." . Perhaps I just misread what you meant.

You bring up Mario and The Matrix, however, those 2 aren't up for debate on being "God" and being worshiped, and have no comparison with God. Neither do Santa Claus and The Easter Bunny, etc.

Sure they do. They're all fictional. The Matrix even has some religious elements and god-like characters in it. When you can draw simple parallels from these things, they are alike.

Some children are encouraged to believe in them as children, and when older, are either told the truth or they figure it out.  It's sort of like a "magical" part of childhood, including fun and excitement of certain holidays.

You don't find it peculiar at all that parents dont do this with religious tales? "Santa Clause going around the world in 1 night? Ha! Proposterous! My god flooding the entire world? A talking serpent? Totally legit."

On the other hand, God is who is up for the debate with being real or not.  I've already mentioned there are reasons, testimonies, situations that happened, God's Word, historical situations, and more, that prove to some people that God is real and so they place their faith in Him.

But I've proven before that these are either flat-out false, inconclusive, anecdotal, cherry-picked, romanticized, or lies. Personally I don't care, but when people push them as truths and suddenly they're teaching creationism in science classes, the line has been breached.

but they shouldn't be intimidated or belittled for believing something they know or perceive to be the truth for them.

Except when they force it upon a free society as Sigimap has pointed out. Let's not forget (historically) the blood spilled in the name of your god either.

Some disbelievers tend to get over-zealous, as well, and attempt to coerce believers to give up believing in God, or some try to make believers appear schizo, delusional, or otherwise, for believing in God.  Yet, the Constitution protects both sides, and some people on both sides tend to forget this when coming down on others for their personal choice.

The fact is that it is delusional and sometime schizophrenic behavior. Heck, we've had schizo's on this forum before who believed in god and heard voices! This is a friendly debate. I'm not trying to take down the first amendment or anything-- that's ridiculous.

Why the big concern for others if they believe there is heaven or hell after death?

It's not a major concern. Ancient afterlife concepts are silly though. If it comforts them on their deathbed, I'm sure nobody has any issues with it. Besides, everyone goes to heaven besides those rotten serial killers. Or maybe it was those people who didn't accept Jesus? Or perhaps they needed to take more action with their beliefs to get to heaven? Etc. etc. etc.

then who is anyone else to try and tell them otherwise that there is nothing after death?

Who's saying that? Nobody knows what happens. Anyone who claims to know is ridiculously arrogant.

Believers shouldn't have to cower in fear and intimidation from others who don't agree with their choice of worshiping God.  And likewise, others who deny God exists, shouldn't have to cower because believers don't agree with their choice.

Correct, though it's unfortunate your beliefs have claimed so many lives and chained so many people for just those reasons.

In today's society, more people, on both sides of the issue, are tending to mind other peoples' business when it comes to an individual's personal choice of believing or disbelieving.

Yes, though I find it interesting that religion is slowly disappearing in 1st-world countries while this concept you speak of has been promoted in all of them.

I'm speaking of rewards in heaven.  And one cannot enter heaven without "faith" in Christ.  That's a deeper issue than what is being discussed here.

Not all believers "push" as truth, at least not consistently.  Many introduce and after that, it's up to the other person what decision they choose to go with.  Not all disbelievers or atheists "push" God as a fairy tale, and it's up to the other person regarding their thoughts on that as well.  As I said, there are over-zealous people on both sides of the issue, who can carry things too far, and that is wrong.

My "beliefs" did not kill or burn others - people did.  (Just an add in here: guns don't kill people; people use the guns to kill people.)  Some were way over-zealous and seemed to have gone past doing what God wanted - to love everyone - and instead, played God.  They were wrong.  I will add, too, that believers and disbelievers, alike, are all capable of killing, burning, molesting, etc. - it's the people who do so and it doesn't matter who or what they are, they deserve to pay the consequences/penalties for their actions.

As far as what is taught in the schools, evolution and creation were taught side by side for many years.  Both should be included, in my opinion - the parents and students (teens) should be able to look at both and determine from there what they agree with or not agree with.  While some think creation is supernatural by a supernatural being, and therefore too weird to even consider, some feel evolution is too weird too even consider for the sudden "bang" out of nothing/nowhere and then everything just suddenly "knows" how to evolve into what everything is today, not to mention it is still just a theory, by "man," not 100% proven, either.  However, both are fantastic to look at, study, and do research on, even to the point of considering the possibility of the combination of both.

[Flackle]

You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance."  Nor am I.  I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions.  No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever.  Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.  

I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations.  You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it.  I, as a believer, do.  Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.

If you had even an ounce of logical reasoning, you wouldn't include god. It doesn't matter if prayer is powerful, what matters is whether or not it actually does any good. You said nothing in response to my statement that prayer is harmful to society as a whole, and haven't given me any more evidence to support the claim that prayer works. You don't have too, but my stance still stands as it was. If people don't want to explain themselves, that's fine. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to ask for said explanation. One's silence can speak more than one's words.

Mind your own "logical/illogical" reasoning, and I'll mind mine. Just because my thoughts, views, and beliefs don't agree with yours, does not make my reasoning illogical.  And vice versa, I might add - but, I am not the one cutting down someone's reasoning as you are.

It matters not what I reply to you regarding prayer being harmful or not being harmful to society - you do not accept and/or pay attention to what I have said many times already.  I don't really expect you to accept something that you do not know personally nor have experienced - if you did, then there would be an understanding and peace regarding prayer, what it does, how it helps and comforts, through relying on Christ.  

I'm not going to "mind my own logical/illogical reasoning" because you may have noticed we are on a forum dedicated to debate, on a thread I opened for the use of debating. If you no longer wish to debate then no one is forcing you to respond. Also, please don't tell others to stop replying and mind their own business. Otherwise, if you wish to continue to defend your position, I would highly recommend focusing on your position rather than claiming victim to being attacked because someone posted a different opinion from yours. This is getting rather annoying and I have ignored it up to this point.

The reason your ideology is illogical isn't just because I disagree with it. You're ignoring all of the reasons I (as well as others) gave that show's religion is illogical (ie: Blatant contradictions in the bible, no real evidence and no real scientific backing, no evidence outside of the bible that can be used as proof of the events the bible describes, the fact that other religions hold just as much (or as should say as little) validity as yours, the fact that prayer has been shown to have little or no real effect, and I could go on.)

Also, my personal experience has little to do with what I base my reality on. If I see something that looks like Bigfoot, I'm not going to go out on a limb and assume Bigfoot is real. At the same time, If I experience the affects of prayer then I'm noting to assume those effects happened as a result of that prayer. There's plenty of reasons why I experience what I experience so experiences alone may have little to do with actual reality. That's why we have the scientific method. Its also why, even though its the best method, it isn't perfect and we can never state actual fact from it (the reason why "theories are just theories"). It simply hold more validity than personal experiences.

So forgive me if I take other people's personal experiences with even less validity. Especially when claiming something as important as a divine being.

This is one reason I don't care to debate much with you - you take words out of context and twist them.  You said if "I had any logical reasoning, I wouldn't include God."  So, I told you to mind your own logical/illogical reasoning, because I do reason logically and can and will include God, since He is a part of my life and reasoning.  I'm not trying to mind your business and am not telling you to mind your business, but not to determine my logical/illogical reasoning skills - it's your opinion, not fact, and you do not know me enough to make a factual comment about my reasoning; nor do I with yours.  

With that said, I see no need to discuss God/no God with you, unless you leave the personal aim towards my mental abilities out of it and instead, speak on the topic itself.  

I didn't take your words out of context. If you had read my entire post, you would have realized I responded to most of your post. It is just not logical to believe in god. That's what this entire debate is about. When you tell me to mind my own logical/reasoning skills you are telling me to stop all together. It is my opinion that you haven't shown to possess basic skills in logic and reasoning. Instead of telling me I take your post out of context, you could have proven me wrong by actually refuting the points I make with logic and reasoning. When I make a statement, I'm going to state it as a fact. That's the proper way to debate. We cannot debate opinions (because they are opinions) so it isn't proper to respond by saying what the other person states is their opinion. Yes, the things I state are only my opinion. We all know this.

Although we can't disprove a divine being exist, we can show it's illogical to believe in the god of the bible. I am the one trying to actually debate the existence of god. No where in your last few post have you defended your beliefs. If you want me to respect your logic and reasoning skills then it would help to show me your logic/reasoning skills be dismantling my post and counter-argue each argument I make.

[sigmapi1501]

You can believe in Jesus all you want. That is YOUR business. But when you want to govern the law of they land in which I live based on your fairy tale, then it becomes MY business.

I'm not quite sure to whom you are speaking, but be reassured on my behalf, that it is not my intention for my faith in God, with my "religion," to govern the law of the land.  I just want the Constitution upheld so that believers can worship freely, and those who do not choose or have religion, will have their freedom, too. 

Slavery and not allowing women to vote used to be personal preference. But hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
False.  When you deny a woman the right to choose, or a couple from being married based solely on a book that also says a man lived to be 900 years old, then you are not keeping church and state separate.

I've not done anything of the kind, sir.  Not everyone does what you seem to think they do. 

Another thing, those issues are not all encompassed strictly through the "God" thing.  And people are free to feel about those issues whichever way they want - some may agree with you and some may not - it's personal preference and beliefs that people feel strongly about, whether for or against those social issues. 

[queenofnines]

Prayer? Did someone say prayer?

http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm

[Falconer02]

My "beliefs" did not kill or burn others - people did.  (Just an add in here: guns don't kill people; people use the guns to kill people.)  Some were way over-zealous and seemed to have gone past doing what God wanted - to love everyone - and instead, played God.  They were wrong.  I will add, too, that believers and disbelievers, alike, are all capable of killing, burning, molesting, etc. - it's the people who do so and it doesn't matter who or what they are, they deserve to pay the consequences/penalties for their actions.

Your beliefs did lead to the killing and burning of others because people took drastic action using the same beliefs you have (Guns don't kill people- bullets and bloodloss do! However the person pulling the trigger is morally responsible for it). The thing is is that the pick-and-choose-your-morals trend within religions today gives you a lot more leeway than it did in the past. Your beliefs have a history of sparking and continuing atrocious horrific events. Your religion's beliefs many times defended and still defend immoral behavior till this day. And yes- non-believers are also capable of terrible behavior. The thing is is that they don't have a cheap imaginary scapegoat they can blame it on.

As far as what is taught in the schools, evolution and creation were taught side by side for many years.  Both should be included, in my opinion - the parents and students (teens) should be able to look at both and determine from there what they agree with or not agree with.

Oh I agree with this actually. Evolution should be taught in science classes and Creationism should be taught in mythology/literature classes. If you're suggesting that creationist parents who "don't believe 'dem scientists n' 'dey 'dint come from no monkeys" should dictate what should be taught in science classes, your logic is majorly corrupted. Kids need the truth. They need the facts. Not opinions based upon bronze-age desert teachings. Factually there is no science is creationism and saying otherwise is extremely dishonest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbYJfwFgOU

some feel evolution is too weird too even consider for the sudden "bang" out of nothing/nowhere and then everything just suddenly "knows" how to evolve into what everything is today

Our planet's biological evolution has practically nothing to do with The Big Bang Theory.

not to mention it is still just a theory, by "man," not 100% proven, either.

It has been proven though. Micro and macroevolution exist. They've been seen and there is a vast fossil record against any counter-point you could make. At this point in time saying evolution does not exist is on par with saying the world isn't round.

However, both are fantastic to look at, study, and do research on, even to the point of considering the possibility of the combination of both.

Christians tried that. It was called the Intelligent Design movement. I'll save you some time and fill you in- it failed because the concept got cornered. It failed to be science because it moved away from potential rational answers rather than towards, and it could not uphold any faith-based belief because it sat on the point of saying "there could be a god" rather than "there is a god".

[sammywantsya]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.

i couldnt agree way more.. this is a troll thread tho.. they like to have opinions as facts.. its just silly to me..

[Flackle]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.

i couldnt agree way more.. this is a troll thread tho.. they like to have opinions as facts.. its just silly to me..

[sarcasm]
Exactly. The only reason I made this thread was to make religious adherents angry for the fun of it. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact I have opinions, and I state those opinions as fact because I actually believe in those opinions. On the other hand, when someone who is religious tells me that god is real and state it as fact then that's perfectly acceptable and I should be ashamed for disagreeing with anyone. In fact, we should also discourage dissent in real life, and allow religion to have absolute power over everyone.
[/sarcasm]

[Falconer02]

they like to have opinions as facts.. its just silly to me..

Aren't you on the side that has a history of using ancient opinions as facts? Unless you can counter-argue this, it's obvious who the troll is here. 

[sammywantsya]

look who got buthurt in a bunch lol xD  so your saying the ones who started this usually gets trolled? my good grief..

[sammywantsya]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.

nuff said

[Falconer02]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything.

Speculatively you are correct. Rationally you are wrong- we can and we already have if you read the entire thread. The scientific evidence shows praying does nothing and the idea of defined gods is illogical as they usually succumb to silly reasonings.

[tangiechan]

You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything.

Speculatively you are correct. Rationally you are wrong- we can and we already have if you read the entire thread. The scientific evidence shows praying does nothing and the idea of defined gods is illogical as they usually succumb to silly reasonings.

Hmm. But the only evidence that was provided against prayer is that it isn't effective against illness. This is what I basically think about that: http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/mindbodyandspirit/spirituality-and-prayer

Prayer helps people spiritually. It gives them hope. For some people, religion and prayer are the only things that are keeping them going. Prayer does something. No, it can't cure or improve illness, but it still improves lives and helps people cope with/accept illness (and other problems that they can't control).

[Falconer02]

Hmm. But the only evidence that was provided against prayer is that it isn't effective against illness.

Isn't that sort of the major one here? I understand keeping someone with an illness or injury in a good mindframe is important (same with animals), but knowing someone is praying for you or having the person pray to themselves is on par with bringing in/eating their favorite food. Placebo effects are also a major key here.

I should have stated there is 0 evidence showing that prayer leads to supernatural occurrences that help people.

Prayer helps people spiritually. It gives them hope. For some people, religion and prayer are the only things that are keeping them going.

Well then more power to them! But if they go around stating they were saved by supernatural powers/entities (like the majority of the religious do), they should be expecting skepticism.

No, it can't cure or improve illness, but it still improves lives and helps people cope with/accept illness (and other problems that they can't control).

If it can't improve or cure illnesses, then the religious shouldn't say it can as that is dishonest.