Gay Marriage

[Graeth]

I'm a pretty open minded individual, at least I like to think that I am. Whenever I'm asked about this, I point to here first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y04wYfgWxeA

[liljp617]

I'm a pretty open minded individual, at least I like to think that I am. Whenever I'm asked about this, I point to here first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y04wYfgWxeA

Usually I can't stand listening to him and MSNBC typically annoys the hell out of me....but this video pretty much sums up the whole debate.

[Stealth3si]

The morality and legality of gay marriage are not necessarily the same issue here.

I don't know how that answered my concerns/questions.  You took the very last sentence and thought up the generic response?  I don't get it.

Either way, both the moral and legal standpoints point toward allowing same sex marriage.  Discrimination isn't moral or legal.

If discardedheart were to simply say, "The Bible says that homosexuality is wrong," then it is not really a valid argument against the legal institution of gay marriage in a free nation. If she believed pre-marital sex is wrong, then should it be outlawed?

Don't mistake the two as being the same issue.

Same as "the state."

Please do elaborate.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time because I'm not interested in which has a better track record.

My point is simply that, unless we live in the Utopia, I don't see a wonderful track record from either.

Though, I would be very interested if you could give us concrete elaborate historical examples of how the state has had a more logical, rational, and typically understandable stance on and approach toward most moral issues from the past and how the church don't have that wonderful of a track record at all in determining or carrying out what is or is not moral.

There goes "the power of the people"...

The "power of the people" has little to no place in determining civil rights.  The "people" are overwhelmingly ignorant, prejudice, egotistical, gullible, stuck on ridiculous old ideas, and so on. I guess the "power of the people" should have been more listened to in the 1850s/1860s (and prior).  Maybe then we wouldn't have to deal equally with those pesky, vastly inferior people from Africa (not stating this as fact, stating as sarcasm to prove the point).  Maybe the "power of the people" should have been more listened to in the 1920s so women would just keep quiet and do their cooking and cleaning (again, sarcasm).

I fail to see how the power of the people diminishes anyway.  Again, no church can be forced to marry any couple...they can turn down any couple they wish right now, why would it change?  The government cannot and shouldn't determine who the church gives the traditional ceremonial marriage.  The fact remains, however, that it is plainly immoral and illegal for the state to discriminate against a minority and deny them a civil marriage.  It is also immoral (and hypocritical) for the church to do so, but again, their level of hypocrisy on the vast majority of issues is overwhelming, so I don't expect much different and they can do their own thing.

?

I want to be sure we're talking about both gay and straight people.

Who do you think I meant when I said "the power of the people?"

[dsine223]

Times Change we now have a black president life will go on

[aspenl]

I don't believe in gay marriage but I do believe they should be able to have relationships openly and freely. To each his/her own.

i believe something along these lines. i definitely don't believe in treating anyone badly because of their sexuality.. i think they deserve the same respect as anyone else.. they're people, just the same.
but i was raised in a christian home and don't really believe that gay marriage is "right" i suppose?

but that's my opinion and how i feel..
i think gay marriage is a risky and controversial topic.. it's hard to talk about your own beliefs without someone telling you that you're wrong, regardless of what you actually think.. you know?

Thank you for your opinion.  I too believe it is wrong for religious reasons, and people who tell you that your religion has nothing to do with gay marriage are not being very open minded.  For me it is God's opinion not a 'pastors' opinon that counts.  It even says in the bible that two cities (sodom and gomorah) were entirely destroyed by God's hand because they practiced homosexuality. (Christian Bible, 1st James Version).

[aspenl]

Seems to me Jesus spoke an awful lot about loving each other, forgiving sins, and not judging others. I would like to go to a protest with a sign saying Jesus loves Gays, because I beleive he loves all of us regardless.

I agree with the sign except for a little clarification.  My sign would say something more like 'Jesus loves gays, but does not appreciate their actions'.  Then again I am one of 'those christian' people you were talking about.  With the sign I would not want to imply that Jesus wants us all to be gay, but that he expects all of us to forgive others and not judge and to love each other as he loves each of us.

[mlainez]

Seems to me Jesus spoke an awful lot about loving each other, forgiving sins, and not judging others. I would like to go to a protest with a sign saying Jesus loves Gays, because I beleive he loves all of us regardless.

I agree with the sign except for a little clarification.  My sign would say something more like 'Jesus loves gays, but does not appreciate their actions'.  Then again I am one of 'those christian' people you were talking about.  With the sign I would not want to imply that Jesus wants us all to be gay, but that he expects all of us to forgive others and not judge and to love each other as he loves each of us.

Not trying to offend anyone and I have nothing against gays or lesbians, some of my friends are just that. I just feel that it is very UNNATURAL! God did create 1 man and 1 woman and told them to go out and multiply!

[vlsm23]

I am open to a lot of things in this world, because I feel if it is not harmful to me or if it does not affect me personally, I have nothing negative or positive to say about it.  If a gay couple wants to get married, by all means, let them try marriage.  I honestly think by just allowing gay marriage, we can improve the economy - really, just think about the expense some gay couples would go through if they could get married legally anywhere.

[jester2dr]

just a reminder.....

this discusion is about "Gay Marriage".....

it's not about whether your church teaches that homosexuality is wrong or right.....

remember not all people have the same beliefs.....

and once we allow the government to disciminate against one group (even if you don't agree with that group) it starts a slippery slope.....

what happens when the government feels that no one should be a Christian.... or people who follow Christianity deserve less rights than some one who doesn't?

that's more what this is about than what one group teaches about another group....

[discardedheart]

The morality and legality of gay marriage are not necessarily the same issue here.

I don't know how that answered my concerns/questions.  You took the very last sentence and thought up the generic response?  I don't get it.

Either way, both the moral and legal standpoints point toward allowing same sex marriage.  Discrimination isn't moral or legal.

If discardedheart were to simply say, "The Bible says that homosexuality is wrong," then it is not really a valid argument against the legal institution of gay marriage in a free nation. If she believed pre-marital sex is wrong, then should it be outlawed?

Don't mistake the two as being the same issue.

Same as "the state."

Please do elaborate.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time because I'm not interested in which has a better track record.

My point is simply that, unless we live in the Utopia, I don't see a wonderful track record from either.

Though, I would be very interested if you could give us concrete elaborate historical examples of how the state has had a more logical, rational, and typically understandable stance on and approach toward most moral issues from the past and how the church don't have that wonderful of a track record at all in determining or carrying out what is or is not moral.

There goes "the power of the people"...

The "power of the people" has little to no place in determining civil rights.  The "people" are overwhelmingly ignorant, prejudice, egotistical, gullible, stuck on ridiculous old ideas, and so on. I guess the "power of the people" should have been more listened to in the 1850s/1860s (and prior).  Maybe then we wouldn't have to deal equally with those pesky, vastly inferior people from Africa (not stating this as fact, stating as sarcasm to prove the point).  Maybe the "power of the people" should have been more listened to in the 1920s so women would just keep quiet and do their cooking and cleaning (again, sarcasm).

I fail to see how the power of the people diminishes anyway.  Again, no church can be forced to marry any couple...they can turn down any couple they wish right now, why would it change?  The government cannot and shouldn't determine who the church gives the traditional ceremonial marriage.  The fact remains, however, that it is plainly immoral and illegal for the state to discriminate against a minority and deny them a civil marriage.  It is also immoral (and hypocritical) for the church to do so, but again, their level of hypocrisy on the vast majority of issues is overwhelming, so I don't expect much different and they can do their own thing.

?

I want to be sure we're talking about both gay and straight people.

Who do you think I meant when I said "the power of the people?"

first of all, Stealth3si deserves a 'thank you' for obvious reasons

the question stated in the poll is "do you believe in gay marriage?" and all i did was answer that question. i should've known, in fact i DID know, that someone would try to make an *bleep* out of me by asking me to "explain" so that they could pick apart anything i replied with.. which is why i didn't bother replying. i don't really see the point in looking for an argument.

religion is different for everyone.. MY religion is what I believe, and i don't try to force that upon everyone else. i didn't say "YOU SHOULDN'T SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE." i didn't try to push any buttons. i answered the question. and i'm not on fusioncash to argue my views to certain users who like to use big words and who think their keyboards make them cool. there's really not much to gain from constantly trying to demean others.

i'm christian. not everyone else is. like aspenl i believe in the bible, that's WHY i stated the opinion that i did. i know the story of sodom and gomorrah very well. but because everyone else doesn't believe the same, i didn't bother going into that.

for those of you who keep reminding us that everyone isn't christian.. no, everyone isn't. but some of us ARE. and for some of us the issues go hand in hand. just because you don't believe the same, doesn't mean you need to constantly keep trying to prove that we're wrong. are you not doing the exact same thing that you accuse us of? yeah, you pretty much are.

i'm not here to argue.
i gave my opinion on the matter.
everyone else is free to do the same.
end of story.

[Stealth3si]

first of all, Stealth3si deserves a 'thank you' for obvious reasons

You are welcome. 

i should've known, in fact i DID know, that someone would try to make an *bleep* out of me by asking me to "explain" so that they could pick apart anything i replied with.. which is why i didn't bother replying. i don't really see the point in looking for an argument.

I wouldn't feel ashamed of not being able to answer that question. It's a dishonest question, at least it seems that way to me because to me it just looks like liljp617 is more simply being sarcastic to prove his point than wanting to learn. But I could be wrong.

Anyway, a skeptic asking you that question in a way that dismisses religious views altogether would just be proving how ridiculously little he cares about understanding your faith, so why would you try to justify to him something he cares nothing about?

[liljp617]

I sincerely apologize for asking you to help me understand your stance.  What a rude person I am.


Give me a break -.-

I even explicitly stated I was not saying you're wrong nor did I say anything specifically to make you "look like an *bleep*."  I asked, pretty politely from my point of view, if you would generously explain your logic or rationale behind your stance, because so many people in opposition to same sex marriage share your exact view.  And I am thrown the generic response of "I don't want to have a discussion, I just wanted to give my opinion on the subject and leave it at that.  I don't want my opinion questioned or scrutinized by people who don't understand the reasoning behind it."  Frankly, not surprised, but I hoped you would be different.

I mean, you're on a discussion board.  If you want to toss your opinion out, at least have the willpower or courage to step up and explain it if asked to.

I don't believe in gay marriage but I do believe they should be able to have relationships openly and freely. To each his/her own.

i believe something along these lines. i definitely don't believe in treating anyone badly because of their sexuality.. i think they deserve the same respect as anyone else.. they're people, just the same.
but i was raised in a christian home and don't really believe that gay marriage is "right" i suppose?

but that's my opinion and how i feel..
i think gay marriage is a risky and controversial topic.. it's hard to talk about your own beliefs without someone telling you that you're wrong, regardless of what you actually think.. you know?

Thank you for your opinion.  I too believe it is wrong for religious reasons, and people who tell you that your religion has nothing to do with gay marriage are not being very open minded.  For me it is God's opinion not a 'pastors' opinon that counts.  It even says in the bible that two cities (sodom and gomorah) were entirely destroyed by God's hand because they practiced homosexuality. (Christian Bible, 1st James Version).

It also says that if a child is disobedient to his/her parents, the child should be taken to the town elders and stoned by them.

It also says eating seafood is an abomination.

It also says to stone witches.

It also says to stone women who lose their virginity prior to being married.

It also says that if a man is caught raping a woman, he must pay 50 silver pieces to her father then marry the woman because he violated her.

It also okays slavery.

The list goes on and on...

If this is the same book you're trying to derive morals on homosexuality from, why don't you follow or promote the previously mentioned orders?

(I suppose I'll get yelled at for asking questions again or even daring to criticize a religion!)

[liljp617]

If discardedheart were to simply say, "The Bible says that homosexuality is wrong," then it is not really a valid argument against the legal institution of gay marriage in a free nation. If she believed pre-marital sex is wrong, then should it be outlawed?

Don't mistake the two as being the same issue.

I didn't say they were.  I simply stated that both the moral and legal discussions point toward allowing same sex marriage.

There's nothing moral about discriminating against a group of people who are not imposing on other people's freedoms.

It is illegal for the state or federal government to discriminate based on a person's sexuality.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time because I'm not interested in which has a better track record.

My point is simply that, unless we live in the Utopia, I don't see a wonderful track record from either.

Though, I would be very interested if you could give us concrete elaborate historical examples of how the state has had a more logical, rational, and typically understandable stance on and approach toward most moral issues from the past and how the church don't have that wonderful of a track record at all in determining or carrying out what is or is not moral.

I don't see the purpose in bringing up a counterpoint against someone and then refusing to elaborate on it because you "don't care."  If you don't care, then why bring it up as though you strongly support the stance?

Would it be fair for me to say "I don't care if you would like an example of how the state has more rational approaches to moral issues?"  No, it wouldn't.

Governments over the ages do not have flawless records, nor would I ever make such a claim.  They do have stronger records however.  They haven't burned hundreds to thousands of people at the stake for being "witches" for instance.  They don't uphold and promote millennium old books that openly state clearly immoral things.  Their proposed laws and laws currently set in place are typically based on rational approaches, not emotional feelings or spiritual feelings that have no basis in reality.

I'll stop here so as to not waste yours or my time, since you probably don't care.

I want to be sure we're talking about both gay and straight people.

Who do you think I meant when I said "the power of the people?"

The voting citizens of this country.

[jester2dr]

i'm christian. not everyone else is. like aspenl i believe in the bible, that's WHY i stated the opinion that i did. i know the story of sodom and gomorrah very well. but because everyone else doesn't believe the same, i didn't bother going into that

for those of you who keep reminding us that everyone isn't christian.. no, everyone isn't. but some of us ARE. and for some of us the issues go hand in hand. just because you don't believe the same, doesn't mean you need to constantly keep trying to prove that we're wrong. are you not doing the exact same thing that you accuse us of? yeah, you pretty much are.

just a reminder.....

this discusion is about "Gay Marriage".....

it's not about whether your church teaches that homosexuality is wrong or right.....

remember not all people have the same beliefs.....

and once we allow the government to disciminate against one group (even if you don't agree with that group) it starts a slippery slope.....

what happens when the government feels that no one should be a Christian.... or people who follow Christianity deserve less rights than some one who doesn't?

that's more what this is about than what one group teaches about another group....

It sounds like you are taking about me....

First... let me clarify..... I AM A CHRISTAIN!!! I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TO BE TRUE!!!

but as i stated this is NOT about my personal religious beliefs....

the bible has numerous examples of being in a country that does not support your personal beliefs...

at this point we are heading that way....

time and time again this country has taken a stand against, what they "say" is a threat to them, only to use that, to expand the rule, to include others that weren't meant in the "law" to be affected....  every time they take away any freedom of expression i see us heading one step closer to a country that doesnt have..... freedom of speech......or freedom of religion...

In short I'd rather live in a country where people have the "free will" to sin and choose not to... than in a country that dictates what sins are acceptable and which ones aren't....  now before you start blasting...
i'm not saying we should live in a lawless society.... anyone who hurts or infringes on another persons rights should be punished.... and the aspect of sin is part of my personal beliefs.

[mlainez]

I am open to a lot of things in this world, because I feel if it is not harmful to me or if it does not affect me personally, I have nothing negative or positive to say about it.  If a gay couple wants to get married, by all means, let them try marriage.  I honestly think by just allowing gay marriage, we can improve the economy - really, just think about the expense some gay couples would go through if they could get married legally anywhere.

Excellent point you made here! The population definitely decreases and children in orphanages would get a home as well, which benefits the economy in many ways.