Re logical existence of God

[SherylsShado]

@Falconer02:

You're right, no one did ask to be "hired by this boss".  What God was thinking is a mystery to me.  Noone asks to be born either, yet here we are.  With life comes choices.  The choices we make determines which boss we've chosen.

A coercion tactic-- the sign of an evil and unfair deity.  How is it not evil?God created Satan.  He seems to have blessed him with gifts that went above and beyond what the other angels were blessed with.  Satan could have chosen to be happy with that and chosen to serve Him for an eternity.  He chose not to.  Bummer for him that it's God's Rules or the "highway".  God is the Creator, we are just the "creation".  It isn't considered "evil" because He gives everyone the same choice.  If we were "God" we could write the rules but we aren't.  I don't see how one can study God's attributes/nature and compare those with Satan's and come to the conclusion that God is the evil one...?  I would rather put my trust in God ANY day than put it in satan's, based on their character.

"if my mother did kill me, she'd be in prison for immoral and horrific behavior..."

---yes, because she isn't God.  I'm not saying God "kills people", just saying that He makes the rules.

"Genesis 6-8 = the flood wipes out everyone. This god caused it and thus that's genocide. You can try the "they were evil" card, but it's still genocide."

The "evil" card?  I believe they went WAY BEYOND mere "evil" and that was why God needed to do something so MAJOR to end it.  Ever do any reading on the "Nephilim"?   The more reading I've done on that, the better I could understand how God needed to do something to end the wickedness.

Exodus 11-12 = Passover story. Rather than just popping in and scaring the Pharoah (ONE GUY) into letting them all go, he sets off plagues and kills various people including kids.

If Pharoah had obeyed God in the beginning and "let His people go", there would have been no need for the plagues or the dead children.  It's when people harden their hearts against God, it's when they "try to play God", it's when they refuse to obey God that their grief begins.   Pharoah was given chance after chance, after chance....  So many people are given chance after chance, after chance to obey God and they still FAIL.  Why?  They could prevent all the misery that comes with disobeying God if they just chose to obey Him in the first place.   
(*That verse you listed, there's a reason why they were told to "destroy them totally", one would need to do some further research to see exactly what was happening at the time between both sides to know why God said that.)

Of course I get mad when people get killed. Especially when it's close to home. An acquantence I knew from HS just got killed in that movie-theater shooting! I put myself in that situation and I get really angry. But the references are above for what you're asking for.

Sorry about the loss of your HS aqaintance and for the loss to those families.  It was a senseless tragedy that I wish had never happened.

Because he created this faulty planet according to the bible. I'm fairly certain we didn't cause earthquakes or hurricanes throughout history. Granted desertification can be caused by over-use of land, the vast majority of it is natural. Plagues can be caused by various natural means and usually hit populations unexpectantly. A super-being with the ability to correct these flaws would be ideal but alas history proves that they've always existed.

But God didn't create this faulty planet according to the Bible.  According to the Bible, it was created perfect.  Genesis says God saw all that He had made and it was very good.  God was pleased, it was very good to Him.  It wasn't until the fall of Eve & Adam that the curse began.  Still, I'm not sure that all "earthquakes" and "hurricanes" are "works of God".  It's my personal belief that a major part of that curse was that while things are "indirectly cursed by God", means that He was allowing them to be "directly cursed" by satan.  In other words, perhaps it's God that "allows" the earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. to happen...but satan is actually the "cause"?

[falcon9]

[quote from Falconeer02]
Because he created this faulty planet according to the bible. I'm fairly certain we didn't cause earthquakes or hurricanes throughout history. Granted desertification can be caused by over-use of land, the vast majority of it is natural. Plagues can be caused by various natural means and usually hit populations unexpectantly. A super-being with the ability to correct these flaws would be ideal but alas history proves that they've always existed.

But God didn't create this faulty planet according to the Bible.  According to the Bible, it was created perfect.  Genesis says God saw all that He had made and it was very good.  God was pleased, it was very good to Him.  It wasn't until the fall of Eve & Adam that the curse began.  Still, I'm not sure that all "earthquakes" and "hurricanes" are "works of God".  It's my personal belief that a major part of that curse was that while things are "indirectly cursed by God", means that He was allowing them to be "directly cursed" by satan.  In other words, perhaps it's God that "allows" the earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. to happen...but satan is actually the "cause"?

After reading your reply to Falconeer02's logical objections to your illogical points, the last paragraph was chosen as an example of non-reasoning "belief".  Not only is it based upon an unsupported premise, (as were the preceding paragraphs; the "bible" is not a valid premise), but the conclusions posited do not follow rationally.  If one is going to base conclusions on irrational premises, any false conclusion is possible, (however improbable).

Specifically, if this planet was formed via 'deital creation', (not a given, btw), then earthquakes and other weather phenomenon are inherent in it's "design" or, the "design" was imperfect.  The post hoc suggestion 'blaming' such things on "satan" is the same sort of insidious shifting of responsibility which charcterizes a major aspect of religious "faith", (e.g., 'g-d didn't do it, satan did ... although g-d created satan but, isn't responsible for what that creation does ...').  This type of nonsensical, irrational theological hair-splitting is a pointless non sequitur since the original premise, (religious belief), is not a valid basis of rational argument.  Irrational xtian arguements can, of course, ensue nevertheless.

[SherylsShado]

[quote from Falconeer02]
Because he created this faulty planet according to the bible. I'm fairly certain we didn't cause earthquakes or hurricanes throughout history. Granted desertification can be caused by over-use of land, the vast majority of it is natural. Plagues can be caused by various natural means and usually hit populations unexpectantly. A super-being with the ability to correct these flaws would be ideal but alas history proves that they've always existed.

But God didn't create this faulty planet according to the Bible.  According to the Bible, it was created perfect.  Genesis says God saw all that He had made and it was very good.  God was pleased, it was very good to Him.  It wasn't until the fall of Eve & Adam that the curse began.  Still, I'm not sure that all "earthquakes" and "hurricanes" are "works of God".  It's my personal belief that a major part of that curse was that while things are "indirectly cursed by God", means that He was allowing them to be "directly cursed" by satan.  In other words, perhaps it's God that "allows" the earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. to happen...but satan is actually the "cause"?

After reading your reply to Falconeer02's logical objections to your illogical points, the last paragraph was chosen as an example of non-reasoning "belief".  Not only is it based upon an unsupported premise, (as were the preceding paragraphs; the "bible" is not a valid premise), but the conclusions posited do not follow rationally.  If one is going to base conclusions on irrational premises, any false conclusion is possible, (however improbable).

Specifically, if this planet was formed via 'deital creation', (not a given, btw), then earthquakes and other weather phenomenon are inherent in it's "design" or, the "design" was imperfect.  The post hoc suggestion 'blaming' such things on "satan" is the same sort of insidious shifting of responsibility which charcterizes a major aspect of religious "faith", (e.g., 'g-d didn't do it, satan did ... although g-d created satan but, isn't responsible for what that creation does ...').  This type of nonsensical, irrational theological hair-splitting is a pointless non sequitur since the original premise, (religious belief), is not a valid basis of rational argument.  Irrational xtian arguements can, of course, ensue nevertheless.

No falcon9...what I said was "God ALLOWS".  Just like He created people with a purpose but ALLOWS them to make their choice.  Like He created angels with a purpose but ALLOWED them to make their choice.  Like He created the earth perfect, but ALLOWS "the bad".  If He didn't allow the "bad", how would people ever know to choose the good? (Before the Fall, they didn't have to choose...good was all they were supposed to know.  Once they decided they wanted to know more than that...they were permitted to.)

[falcon9]

No falcon9...what I said was "God ALLOWS".  Just like He created people with a purpose but ALLOWS them to make their choice.  Like He created angels with a purpose but ALLOWED them to make their choice.  Like He created the earth perfect, but ALLOWS "the bad".  If He didn't allow the "bad", how would people ever know to choose the good? (Before the Fall, they didn't have to choose...good was all they were supposed to know.  Once they decided they wanted to know more than that...they were permitted to.)

The premise, (of "allowance"), remains an unsupported one based on the equally unsupported premise of a supernatural entity which does any 'allowing'.  Since the premise is without basis, (other than the, once again, invalid basis of non-evidentiary "faith"), any conclusions derived from an insubstantive basis are themselves, insubstantive.  These baseless premises are religious beliefs and not supported facts therefore, the 'argument' exemplifies the inherent difference between irrational religious arguments and rational, non-religious refutations.

[SherylsShado]

The Bible is clear that the only sin God will not forgive is that of continued unbelief, because it rejects the only means to obtain forgiveness—Jesus Christ and His substitutionary death on the cross.

[falcon9]

The Bible is clear that the only sin God will not forgive is that of continued unbelief, because it rejects the only means to obtain forgiveness—Jesus Christ and His substitutionary death on the cross.

Using the jumble of hearsay of the "bible" as a basis for irrational "faith" negates any circular conclusions derived from it.  They're circular, (and therefore, irrational), because they're self-referential.  Lastly, the "soteriological" theological premise lacks any rational basis whatsoever and is instead entirely reliant upon religious belief/faith. 

The context of this thread, ("logical existence of 'g-d'"), has not been supported by any valid evidentiary basis/argument.  Arguing that 'the bible says so because the bible says so' or, that 'belief requires faith which requires belief ...' ad infinitum is considered to be an invalid and irrational circular basis.

[SherylsShado]

Arguing that 'the bible says so because the bible says so' or, that 'belief requires faith which requires belief ...' ad infinitum is considered to be an invalid and irrational circular basis.

If you were implying that I was "arguing", I wasn't.  I was simply posting what I believe and why.  While it's my hope that everyone gets their hearts right with God before it's too late, I wasn't trying to convert anyone to any particular religion.  There's nothing wrong with someone posting/sharing what they believe and their basis for it.  Do you realize, if everyone thought like you...there would be NO d&D???

[falcon9]

If you were implying that I was "arguing", I wasn't.  I was simply posting what I believe and why.

This is the debate & discussion subforum of the off-topic forum - not the 'presentation of specious beliefs which cannot be supported by logical arguement' forum.  Nor is it an 'irrational proselytization' forum, (although threads containing such are not disallowed, they can be refuted by replied counter-arguments).  An "argument", in the sense/context of d&d is a presented premise, not an inarguable declaration.

While it's my hope that everyone gets their hearts right with God before it's too late, I wasn't trying to convert anyone to any particular religion.  There's nothing wrong with someone posting/sharing what they believe and their basis for it.  Do you realize, if everyone thought like you...there would be NO d&D???

The problem is that there is no rational basis for religious beliefs, which leaves only an irrational basis.  While holding an irrational belief/faith is a choice made by an individual, so too is the choice not to hold an irrational religious belief.  Neither does choosing reason over unreason mean that everyone would think alike, (as opposed to a bunch of religious adherents sharing the same general delusion and thinking generally alike).

[Falconer02]

You're right, no one did ask to be "hired by this boss".  What God was thinking is a mystery to me.  Noone asks to be born either, yet here we are.  With life comes choices.  The choices we make determines which boss we've chosen.

I suppose so. Those choices fortunately stem to not walking into the gulags with the terrible bosses.

God created Satan.  He seems to have blessed him with gifts that went above and beyond what the other angels were blessed with.  Satan could have chosen to be happy with that and chosen to serve Him for an eternity.  He chose not to.  Bummer for him that it's God's Rules or the "highway".  God is the Creator, we are just the "creation".  It isn't considered "evil" because He gives everyone the same choice.  If we were "God" we could write the rules but we aren't.  I don't see how one can study God's attributes/nature and compare those with Satan's and come to the conclusion that God is the evil one...?  I would rather put my trust in God ANY day than put it in satan's, based on their character.

If we were "God", I'm sure anyone with a moral compass wouldn't create a hell or an individual who they know would turn into the primary antagonist of themselves and their creations. It would obviously be immoral and malevolent.

Omniscient God + pointlessly creates evil antagonist = God is malevolent (which is an evil trait). You put your trust in this god?

---yes, because she isn't God.  I'm not saying God "kills people", just saying that He makes the rules.

But your god does/has kill(ed) people. You know that throughout history individuals who put themselves above the laws/rules that are made are usually deemed evil and immoral themselves, right? Whether it be simple cops to national political figures, people just want to spit in their faces. But with this god, you bow and praise him for this behavior. How can one be dignified and praised for such blind behavior?

If Pharoah had obeyed God in the beginning and "let His people go", there would have been no need for the plagues or the dead children.  It's when people harden their hearts against God, it's when they "try to play God", it's when they refuse to obey God that their grief begins.   Pharoah was given chance after chance, after chance....  So many people are given chance after chance, after chance to obey God and they still FAIL.  Why?  They could prevent all the misery that comes with disobeying God if they just chose to obey Him in the first place.

Wouldn't having your god just come down and scaring the pharoah have been enough? Maybe just smashing a pyramid down with his pinky? I'm sure that'd scare anyone into saying "OKAY! LEAVE PLZ!". Did he really have to go with the dead kids and plague route? How is that not the sign of evil? And the fact that you used the words "could prevent misery" in your argument only solidifies that this is a Godfather coercion tactic...

But God didn't create this faulty planet according to the Bible.  According to the Bible, it was created perfect.  Genesis says God saw all that He had made and it was very good.  God was pleased, it was very good to Him.  It wasn't until the fall of Eve & Adam that the curse began.  Still, I'm not sure that all "earthquakes" and "hurricanes" are "works of God".  It's my personal belief that a major part of that curse was that while things are "indirectly cursed by God", means that He was allowing them to be "directly cursed" by satan.  In other words, perhaps it's God that "allows" the earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. to happen...but satan is actually the "cause"?

I'd recommend opening a science book instead of the bible here because apparently the bible knows nothing about the our planet really runs. If you're telling me Satan is causing plate tectonics (something that has always happened since our planet was formed), I have no other answer than to facepalm and end the argument since this is the exact same thing as saying "Thunder is caused by angels bowling!".